Micro 550: 2 Scoops of the Fourth Degree (Game Over)

[A Simple Plan]

Hoping to catch up/contribute later this evening. I've been dealing with some stressful stuff IRL.

[OceanWind]

Yes, for many games before this as town I have advocated a quick D1.

I'm unclear as to what precisely are you advocating. How do you intend to get a quick D1? Pick someone at random and lynch them?

Although I feel like these are leading questions that are just leading Kaboose to certain answers.

How are any of those questions leading Kaboose to certain answers? They are intended to get a baseline for his mafia principles so as to see whether he's being consistent even if they are wrong.

[Kaboose]

My definition of a quick D1 is 10 pages or less. 15 is my max. 16 is too many and I quit caring until it's D2.

[Cheery Dog]

Votecount 1.02

Kaboose ( 3 ) Not_Mafia; KTthecreeper; OceanWind;
KTthecreeper ( 2 ) Huntress; A Simple Plan;
A Simple Plan ( 1 ) All Alone;
All Alone ( 1 ) Kaboose;
Not_Mafia ( 1 ) TheDominator37;
TheDominator37 ( 0 )
Froggaphant ( 0 )
Huntress ( 0 )
OceanWind ( 0 )

Not voting: Froggaphant;

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Day 1 Deadline: (expired on 2015-11-30 01:47:35)

[KTthecreeper]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=63587

That is the last game I was town in that didn't have a mechanic to make D1 more interesting. The most recent completed town game had a vote to determine a person who would be nominating 2 people for being lynched and that gave me something to look at and talk about and because of that you can't compare it to this game which is more like the game I linked, where D1 is almost completely useless imo.

can't talk about ongoing games ....

[KTthecreeper]

@Kaboose:
Have you in the past advocated getting D1 over with quickly as town?
In your opinion, at what point do you think it is possible to scumhunt?
If we random quicklynch D1 and get two flips, how is that going to improve your scumhunting on D2?

-I will advocate for a quick D1 if there's not a game mechanic that I know of that makes anything happen on D1. Yes, for many games before this as town I have advocated a quick D1.
-It's possible from the very start. However, on D1 it's impossible to be sure about anything. It's all guess work. I like a flip, and a night kill. This gives me points of reference to start thinking with. Right now there are 8 people and I have no idea what any of them are capable of or any guess at their alignment so I find it wasteful to spend your time trying to decipher that. Like as town I want a quick D1, as scum I want a long D1 and it kills me more people don't see it this way.

On D1 scum have information, town do not. The longer D1 goes the more information both sides have. But you have to see the problem there, right? Scum have the head start on information. I believe the team to win is the first one to have 100% info. Considering scum start at 50% to me means you should get D1 over with asap for two reasons(also specifically with a no lynch if there are powers in the town.)

a) no lynch eliminates any role claim on L1 scenario.
b) no lynch eliminates scum from gaining any more info than they already have
c) thanks to no more info from the scum their night kill can not be pinpointed to anything more than what THEY BELIEVE to be a strong player.
d) more town alive N1 more possibilities that all powers get used.

And the more powers that get used successfully the more knowledge town has. This game, to me, comes down to a info race. We have no info on D1 so why start the race? Why not put ourselves in a position to gain as much info as possible while limiting that of what the scum know?
-I never want a random quick lynch. I just want D1 over asap.

Yes but D1 helps people get a good stand on things I don't think it would help scum find out the cops and docs as much as you think it would. Yes but no lynch means no flip no flip mean nothing to go off of nothing to go off of means scum have things to go off of and they are even higher in the "info race".

Ok A. Role claim at L-1 normaly doesn't do anything the lynch 95% of the time goes through.
B. then we still have no info
C. yea but umm thats what they do anyway since theres no way for them to know the cops and docs off of D1
D. umm so your saying that you are scard to death that we will lynch a power role D1 so theres two town power roles in a 9 player game thats around a 74% chance of us not hitting a power role and around a 24% chance of us hitting scum A chance I would gladly take for info.

[Kaboose]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=63587

That is the last game I was town in that didn't have a mechanic to make D1 more interesting. The most recent completed town game had a vote to determine a person who would be nominating 2 people for being lynched and that gave me something to look at and talk about and because of that you can't compare it to this game which is more like the game I linked, where D1 is almost completely useless imo.

can't talk about ongoing games ....

That game is over. I would know, I was following along.

[Kaboose]

@Kaboose:
Have you in the past advocated getting D1 over with quickly as town?
In your opinion, at what point do you think it is possible to scumhunt?
If we random quicklynch D1 and get two flips, how is that going to improve your scumhunting on D2?

-I will advocate for a quick D1 if there's not a game mechanic that I know of that makes anything happen on D1. Yes, for many games before this as town I have advocated a quick D1.
-It's possible from the very start. However, on D1 it's impossible to be sure about anything. It's all guess work. I like a flip, and a night kill. This gives me points of reference to start thinking with. Right now there are 8 people and I have no idea what any of them are capable of or any guess at their alignment so I find it wasteful to spend your time trying to decipher that. Like as town I want a quick D1, as scum I want a long D1 and it kills me more people don't see it this way.

On D1 scum have information, town do not. The longer D1 goes the more information both sides have. But you have to see the problem there, right? Scum have the head start on information. I believe the team to win is the first one to have 100% info. Considering scum start at 50% to me means you should get D1 over with asap for two reasons(also specifically with a no lynch if there are powers in the town.)

a) no lynch eliminates any role claim on L1 scenario.
b) no lynch eliminates scum from gaining any more info than they already have
c) thanks to no more info from the scum their night kill can not be pinpointed to anything more than what THEY BELIEVE to be a strong player.
d) more town alive N1 more possibilities that all powers get used.

And the more powers that get used successfully the more knowledge town has. This game, to me, comes down to a info race. We have no info on D1 so why start the race? Why not put ourselves in a position to gain as much info as possible while limiting that of what the scum know?
-I never want a random quick lynch. I just want D1 over asap.

Yes but D1 helps people get a good stand on things I don't think it would help scum find out the cops and docs as much as you think it would. Yes but no lynch means no flip no flip mean nothing to go off of nothing to go off of means scum have things to go off of and they are even higher in the "info race".

Ok A. Role claim at L-1 normaly doesn't do anything the lynch 95% of the time goes through.
B. then we still have no info
C. yea but umm thats what they do anyway since theres no way for them to know the cops and docs off of D1
D. umm so your saying that you are scard to death that we will lynch a power role D1 so theres two town power roles in a 9 player game thats around a 74% chance of us not hitting a power role and around a 24% chance of us hitting scum A chance I would gladly take for info.

Well I never said I could help that you're clearly better at this than me.

[Froggaphant]

Ok, I've synched with the Frog.

We have town reads on Kab, ASP and The dom right now, although Frog's read on Kaboose is weaker. He is conflicted a tad about KT, but thinks 39 is townie. He also says him wanting us to sign our posts is townie, which I should've asked more about.

The kaboose wagon is kinda skeevey, but we agree that Ocean's votes are the worst. With that and being the third vote on, and the bad leading questions, I'm more than happy to

VOTE: Ocean Wind

IRT the questions, they seem like they'd always produce answers that kab would get attacked for,

Question 1: "Have you in the past advocated getting D1 over with quickly as town?"
Froggie says this feels like a quesiton hoping kaboose won't be able to dig up a yes answer
Question 2: "In your opinion, at what point do you think it is possible to scumhunt?"
Froggie this is a misleading question knowing that kaboose has mentioned it's hard to scumhunt D1. it's also a bit strawmanny.

Question 3 is just throwing shade.

-bella

[Froggaphant]

How do you intend to get a quick D1? Pick someone at random and lynch them?

You've got to be kidding me. Kaboose has already said they don't intend to random lynch.

-Frog

[Froggaphant]

-I never want a random quick lynch. I just want D1 over asap.

[OceanWind]

Question 1: "Have you in the past advocated getting D1 over with quickly as town?"
Froggie says this feels like a quesiton hoping kaboose won't be able to dig up a yes answer

But he has. Why do you think otherwise? Also, you don't think figuring out whether this is alignment-indicative or playstyle is worth it?

Question 2: "In your opinion, at what point do you think it is possible to scumhunt?"
Froggie this is a misleading question knowing that kaboose has mentioned it's hard to scumhunt D1. it's also a bit strawmanny.

Kaboose was acting as if scumhunting D1 is something to be frowned upon. It's important to know when he considers scumhunting worthwhile in order to check whether this is a non-alignment indicative principle of his or whether he is using this as an excuse to not scumhunt.

Question 3 is just throwing shade.

Nice try but no. Question #3 was to ask him what benefits he gains from random lynching D1 and getting two flips. His proposal is problematic because with no information in the game, having two flips isn't going to increase his scumhunting ability.

I think Kaboose's play is more of a playstyle thing. I'd much rather vote here:

UNVOTE: Kaboose
VOTE: Froggaphant

[Froggaphant]

There's the OMGUS

-Frog

[Froggaphant]

But he has.

Yes, but not at the time I said it. And...he said he's done it several times D1, and you're just going to take his word for it? Did you ask for links to where he's said he wants D1 over with so quickly before?

No. Why would you just take his word for it?

Probably because you know he's town.

-Frog

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: OceanWind

[OceanWind]

Yep. Scum love painting omgus as scummy. It's such an easy thing to push on.

But just so we're clear:

You don't think figuring out whether a player's unorthodox approach to D1 is alignment-indicative or playstyle-based is worth it? Kaboose is proposing something that isn't optimal for town to do. Two possible reasons: a) He's scum pushing a suboptimal agenda and using it as an excuse to not have to scumhunt, or b) He's town that actually believes what he's saying despite it being an inferior tactic. The way to find that out is to check whether he did it before as town. Froggaphant is pretending not to understand this question.

[Froggaphant]

You don't think figuring out whether a player's unorthodox approach to D1 is alignment-indicative or playstyle-based is worth it?

I do think so. That's why I asked to see if you followed up on his prior games to see if it was true.

Did you do that?

[Froggaphant]

Scum love painting omgus as scummy.

Both alignments do, really.

[Kaboose]

VOTE: Ocean

I'm okay with this. Let's go before page 10.

[OceanWind]

Yeah I did.

I also hate D1 and hope it ends ASAP.

In the above game, Kaboose was town and expressed similar sentiments. I know that it isn't fake and he actually believes what he's saying. It doesn't make him town necessarily but my reasons for suspecting him turned out to be playstyle-based.

[Froggaphant]

Froggaphant is pretending not to understand this question.

No I'm not. I even asked you to follow up on it. You are misrepping me big time.

Also - I believe you just now followed up on it.

[OceanWind]

You don't think figuring out whether a player's unorthodox approach to D1 is alignment-indicative or playstyle-based is worth it?

I do think so. That's why I asked to see if you followed up on his prior games to see if it was true.

Did you do that?

So, let's back up here. First you claimed that you didn't like my question, now you're changing that to saying my question was valid but I should have followed up on it. Which is it?

[Froggaphant]

No. I never said your question was invalid. I said I didn't like it because you intended to lead him into what you thought would be something he couldn't answer (I knew for a fact he could answer because I WAS IN THAT GAME WITH HIM). Once he did answer, he just said he had before, which if you were town you probably would have not just taken his word for it.

You just assumed after he said he's done this before that all was ok.

Then when I pressured you to follow up on it you finally did.

[Froggaphant]

me paraphrasing...

OW: Kaboose have you advocated for quicklynches D1 before? (post 65)
Kaboose: Yes, several times (but no links given) (post 66)
OW: He has answered it (post 86)

[Froggaphant]

Yes, but not at the time I said it.

Also. This is wrong. He had answered it 1 post later so my bad.