Mini 1742: game over

[JohnnyFarrar]

Phone posting so this is gonna be broken up. But really sorry.

Well, what was your feels and thoughts about it?

I'm wondering why you said it I guess? Looks vaguely like a call for help.

[JohnnyFarrar]

What do you think of Ice and Wickan's push onto me?

I think they make sense from the "I haven't played with Scum Taly" point of view and you getting all worked up will only make it worse in their eyes. Calm down.

[ICEninja]

Alright so a few things jumped out at me during my re-read. Frozen Angel in post 16 claims that calling someone a confirmed mayor was just spam. I don't really understand this. Can someone explain the joke? This whole interaction feels really weird to me.

Next, talah goes hard. Really hard.

Yeah I'd lynch you at this point.

That is page 1, saying he'd be fine actually lynching someone "at this point". Wow. Then:

I would *definitely* lynch you right now.

This is page 2. Shortly after he states that he hasn't joked about anything.

Taleh, had I put her to L-1 on page 2 would you have announced intent to hammer? I definitely approve of pressure early on but this is seriously over the top.

I've discussed my thoughts on Taly's Wickan vote, but I haven't said too much about FA's. FA pretty clearly voted for pressure, and Taly's unvote alleviated pressure. I'm having a really hard time suspecting FA for the vote though simply on account of Wickan looking so damn scummy right now, and Taly looking to have a higher likelihood of being a scum buddy. Additionally, I missed the first time around when Johnny actually pointed out to Taly that his vote on Wickan seemed "too easy", shortly before Taly's unvote. This strengthens my initial suspicion which has been weakened by other evidence. I think I'm just going to have to shelf that thought for now, because there are more interesting things actually.

So this interesting tidbit from Titus:

This Wickan wagon is crap.

RC is voting someone who she has a townread on and didn't move the vote. Wicked points this out and votes RC.

Um, no. This never actually happened. Wick

an

hadn't yet pointed this out. In fact, I can't find ANY mention of Wickan saying ANYTHING about Cowbells until well after the vote, and after Titus comes in and states why Wickan voted, despite Wickan not having actually said anything about this.

Am I missing something there? This is triggering some SERIOUS daytalk paranoia. Then Wickan comes in during post 77 and states that the things RC did to merit him voting her are "unhelpful and anti-town", though no mention of being scummy.

A side note, can we please not have 2 people with the same LoL character avatar, when we already have players who have names that are easy to mix up?

[ICEninja]

Oh also, ABR is now posting in other games but hasn't yet read this one. He's quickly climbing up my scumlist.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Do you understand the Titus push, because I'm not exactly... And I'm waiting for RC to recognize my existence.

Bells doesn't have anything good yet. That's why he's a non presence.

Titus is someone I disagree with a lot so I'm trying to hold judgment until she actually comes in here and explains herself.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Am I missing something there? This is triggering some SERIOUS daytalk paranoia

Good catch, but slips are usually not the answer.

@Titus you mix him up with someone else?

[Taly]

Phone posting so this is gonna be broken up. But really sorry.

Well, what was your feels and thoughts about it?

I'm wondering why you said it I guess? Looks vaguely like a call for help.

I think you misinterpreted, I asked to see if you'd remember if I said something about it, or given any thought to you when looking at it.

What do you think of Ice and Wickan's push onto me?

I think they make sense from the "I haven't played with Scum Taly" point of view and you getting all worked up will only make it worse in their eyes. Calm down.

I can see it, too. But that doesn't remove my argument or why I am not fond of the assessment.

I'm not losing my mind or anything, but I guess being calm would be best.

Do you understand the Titus push, because I'm not exactly... And I'm waiting for RC to recognize my existence.

Bells doesn't have anything good yet. That's why he's a non presence.

Titus is someone I disagree with a lot so I'm trying to hold judgment until she actually comes in here and explains herself.

Oh, I see.

I just tend to not read things accurately when there's nothing much of it. (In reference to RC's vote on Titus) This is why line-by-lines are useful.

>>>>>>>

Reading Ice's 127 - glad he actually followed with the FA re-look.

Haven't seen Titus too much, either. So bleckh....

Good that he pointed out ABR was foxposting. Yeah, my null is climbing to lean scum on ABR. Especially since his entrance was weak in a pool of content and he made no further set obligations to expand on anything.

Speaking of lurkers; has anyone seen Simple Plan since like... post 10?

[JohnnyFarrar]

I mean guys the thread's been open for less than two days, is it the time to condemn people as lurkerscum?

[Taly]

I mean guys the thread's been open for less than two days, is it the time to condemn people as lurkerscum?

Here's where the mentality to be suspicious of 'lurkers' this early is coming from

1)

Scum have daytalk for 3 days. This may not mean much, but typically - you'd think people who didn't post much or didn't post anything useful so far would be somewhat suspicious for having conversations in a scum PT.

2)

Applying this to ABR; he's done virtually nothing. Granted, his debut post was the previous page to my belief - but by that point, we were already out of RVS and had several discussions happening - and he had nothing to say.

3)

Applying this to SP; he's really not done anything since RVS. I did however just check his posts and he has not yet posted at all on the site. So I think he's just busy.

You do have a point about it being early.... I'll just withhold judgement on SP and ABR until they post again and go from there. Though, I don't think it's too stretchy to not bring it up.

[mykonian]

votecount

Wickan (3): JohnnyFarrar, Frozen Angel, ICEninja
JohnnyFarrar (2): A Simple Plan, Albert B. Rampage
Taly (2): Titus, Wickan
Frozen Angel (1): talah
Titus (1): RadiantCowbells

not voting (1): Taly

[JohnnyFarrar]

Guys I just realized the lurkers are after me

[JohnnyFarrar]

1) Scum have daytalk for 3 days. This may not mean much, but typically - you'd think people who didn't post much or didn't post anything useful so far would be somewhat suspicious for having conversations in a scum PT.

Did we ever get confirmation on this?

[Taly]

Role PM's are out! As in all myko games, don't bother confirming, day one starts now! People with night talk will have 72 hours to get accustomed to another.

With 10 alive, it's 6 to lynch. Deadline is in three weeks.


As a personal request from the mod, in a game this small it should not be necessary to have replacements. I don't mind looking for them, but when playing I enjoy games a lot more without the inevitable hindrance they are to the flow of the game. I imagine I'm not alone in this. Please treat this game as a commitment.

[Taly]

I didn't think that the quotes also used the color. sorry mod, if that was wrong.

@Also Mod, Titus voted RC in 64 and hasn't changed.

[JohnnyFarrar]

That's annoying. We should have just not talked for three days

[Wickan]

One of the big hallmarks of scum play is they so frequently admit things are possible, or that something makes sense for them as scum, only to brush it off in the next sentence. Town has

absolutely no business

saying this at all because if you already KNOW you're town then that thought wouldn't even enter your head, let alone "confuse" you enough to post it.

I legitimately feel like this was a substantial scum slip, as it shows insight in to a thought process that someone with a town role PM simply wouldn't have had.

I'm only brushing that possibility off because I know I'm town. So it's natural for me to brush it off. But I recognize that you can't do that.

And you say it would never have occurred to me if I was town. It did and I am, so I don't know what to say about that.

It does feel too early to start arguing about lurkers, particularly since most of the game so far has been during a weekend (and a holiday one in the US to boot).

[JohnnyFarrar]

SO I'M BORED

@Frozen your vote's on Wickan still. Why? Is it still pressure?

@Ice is weird behavior scummy? Is lurking scummy? Would lurking be less scummy without daytalk?

@Taly where's your head? are you a waiting person? Is no one currently caught up in the game worthy of your vote?

@Wickan does your Taly vote mean you think Taly and Ice are both scum, or that Taly is scum trying to buddy up with Ice? If either, why?

I've already got questions in the air for Bells and Titus. Taleh, Al, and Aspy are mia so blah.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm just completely drained at the moment and can't give the game the effort it deserves.

Give me a week or so.

[Taly]

@Taly where's your head? are you a waiting person? Is no one currently caught up in the game worthy of your vote?

Not usually. But I've held my vote for awhile before. I did get mislynched D1 for doing it once, though. I didn't form solid or accurate reads (I usually don't D1 - but then I tend to go crazy once I see some flips) - I was wagoned, told I had to make reads, and somewhat of a case or die - threw my vote and case on a townie; then got 3v1ed and hammered by scum right before the deadline.

Wasn't a pleasant experience. It's partially why I think the basis of peoples scumread on me over my vote/unvote is bad - especially since it's D1. Also why I want to consider Ice being town for our back and forth.

I'm somewhat torn on Ice, though - I thought the association tells he tries to put up with me and others are just, ewww, (Wickan is no better tbh) - along with my argument with him in the first place. Other than that, I like his detail-oriented approach and it makes sense....

I'll probably vote somewhere once I see more FA, Titus, or RC. Namely, as I've said - I don't know much about the Titus and RC back and forth. I already stated that I'm getting weird vibes from FA and I'm not liking how they phrase some questions and just stand around until they're pushed.

Looking forward to Wickan's response to my rebuttal.... The fact that he's already posted but hasn't even mentioned me makes me think a re-vote is best in order.... >_> Plus, my vote on Wickan would put him to L-1 so I want to get engagement before it gets to that point.

Then there's SP, ABR, and talah - whereas I townread talah of course, but SP and ABR have not really done anything....

So yeah, there's my head.

[Wickan]

@Wickan does your Taly vote mean you think Taly and Ice are both scum, or that Taly is scum trying to buddy up with Ice? If either, why?

The latter.

@Taly: coming in a separate post, as it's a bit longer.

[Wickan]

1)

Yes, I am having difficulty that Ice's thought process is town. Does that mean he must be scum? Disagreements don't always mean scum, this is why town gets lynched.

2)

I didn't explicitly say that I thought Ice was misguided town. I said that some elements of his approach with his argument was towny - and when he asserted that I was scum and trying to bait me for the vote, I told him why I may not be voting him - which is partially the truth.

Assumptions are corrosive, especially when people weigh them too harshly on people who are scum. I have a mixed read on Ice - in case you didn't realize.

You did not explicitly state, but 110 very, very heavily implies that you think ICE is misguided town and you are engaged in a town v town battle. And from the outside, it's very difficult to tell the difference between mixed feelings and fence-sitting.

Did you NOT read my 53?

When was my vote EVER completely about pressuring you?

And no explanation? I'm sorry, but did you not see the part where I said:

3) The wagon - in my belief - did go too fast, and with the posts I already brought up where I unvoted, I wanted to look at that more.

Sorry I didn't draw a picture and sent it in a separate post.

I read both. I know the stated reason for the vote. But that early in D1, the point of the vote is to put pressure on me and see how I respond.

And your stated reason for unvoting is ridiculous. I ask you the same question I asked ICE: do you really believe I was in imminent danger of being lynched? And even if you thought the wagon did move too fast, the natural response from town to that thought would be to ask why and try to suss out whether scum was involved. You didn't do that; instead you stalled the wagon, removing pressure, and went after ICE.

Nice seeing how you completely changed your demeanor and thought of your wagon when I argued against this shit case over my vote.

I didn't. In a vacuum, I don't find your initial vote on me scummy at all. It was normal, early-game pressure. And it was opportunistic to the extent that it jumped on a forming early-game wagon.

d) claims to "get into a lot of TvT in games; and e) follows along with ICE's hedge on reading Johnny. This looks like a combination of trying to paint his interaction with ICE as town v town and follow along with ICE's other suspicions.

Oh, I can give you ALL my town games. You'll see me get into a lot of shit with people.

Talah, RC, Titus - they've all seen my town game at least once (Same as ABR, I think) - and Johnny and RC have seen my scum game.

I don't doubt that you get into plenty of TvT. But the way you brought it up bugged me. It sounded like you were trying to give yourself an out from the argument, implicitly trying to convince ICE that you were both townies and should stop fighting and go after somebody else. So it's not that I'm saying the statement isn't true; it's that I think bringing it up like that is scummy.

1)

Where am I hedging Ice's read on Johnny? All I said was that - partially a meta read - I thought Johnny was quite town. Since my very last game he was town.

I made it clear that I also thought his tone was different, and I wanted to observe a bit more to be firm on the read.

That, what you said right there, that's hedging. That's pretty much exactly hedging. He seems obvtown, but his town is different, but you're not sure. That's hedging. And the way you did it, it felt like buddying up to ICE.

2)

What is bad about pointing out the POSSIBILITY of TvT? Honestly, out of the 7-8 games I've been in, only 1 or 2 is where someone (town) pointed out that a 1v1 could be town shitting on each other.

I mean, would you rather see me put a huge damn dichotomy and division of the people in this game and outright assert that Ice is scum as he had done to me? Or he should be lynched - so anyone can go off of his flip and flashlynch me next dayphase?

Tell me a time where pointing out someone, or an interaction is town - could be from a scum who wants to cause as much chaos as possible to get town against each other.

VOTE: Taly

Speaking of opportunistic votes...

@FA: ICENinja isn't pushing me. Voting for me yes, but pushing me no. I think the wagon on me was normal D1 pressure, which tapered off when Taly decided to prematurely abandon it.

And does that tell you that you should pay attention to Ice's "theory" that we're a scumpair? -_-

Does my - explained unvote - put ANY pressure off of you, because you got quite a few votes quickly and for varying reasons.

As I pointed out earlier, this could make total sense for them to be a scumpair, particularly regarding Wickan's subtle defense of Taly's unvote in 78.

The question in 78 was meant 100% seriously. The problem, as occurred to me while I was writing it, was that the single best answer for why scum-Taly unvoted me is that I was also scum. But from my perspective, that obviously doesn't make sense. I was wondering whether you would notice that Taly's unvote implied that (which you did).

In short, it wasn't meant as a defense of Taly. It was a genuine question, as his unvote made no sense to me from a town

or

scum perspective.

And now you're pushing that my unvote made no sense either alignment -

But you're pushing that as if I were scum.

Without even acknowledging the reasons as to why I unvoted?

[Wickan]

Okay, I just accidentally hit submit instead of preview, so the above looks like a mess. I'm going to post a revised (cleaned up) form in a second. I apologize for the mistake.

[ICEninja]

Simple Plan hasn't posted in any other game since his random vote, and while ABR has posted elsewhere, it's almost exclusively one-liners. Maybe it is a little hasty to be jumping on the lurker hunting mindset, but we DO have over 5 pages of heavy activity to discuss already, sans 20% of the players.

I'm very strongly scum reading Wickan right now. I'm quite happy with my vote. This is based on:
-A chain of logic that a townie would basically never have,
-His original vote of RC that wasn't explained until someone ELSE mentioned it (highly realistic scumpair of Wickan and Titus, probably even more likely than Taly),
-It's small, but he did seem to oppose early discussion with his first vote.

[Wickan]

Okay, this essentially replaces the bottom half of my previous post. I apologize again for spamming the page like that.

2)

What is bad about pointing out the POSSIBILITY of TvT? Honestly, out of the 7-8 games I've been in, only 1 or 2 is where someone (town) pointed out that a 1v1 could be town shitting on each other.

I mean, would you rather see me put a huge damn dichotomy and division of the people in this game and outright assert that Ice is scum as he had done to me? Or he should be lynched - so anyone can go off of his flip and flashlynch me next dayphase?

Tell me a time where pointing out someone, or an interaction is town - could be from a scum who wants to cause as much chaos as possible to get town against each other.

I don't claim that you're trying to cause chaos. I claim that you were trying to say "TvT" to get out of the discussion with ICE. Again, the problem is the way you said it. I welcome other opinions about this, but it rubbed me the wrong way.

Does my - explained unvote - put ANY pressure off of you, because you got quite a few votes quickly and for varying reasons.

Yes. Absolutely yes. The very act that somebody unvoted expressing doubt about the quality of the wagon is enough to remove pressure.

And now you're pushing that my unvote made no sense either alignment -

But you're pushing that as if I were scum.

Without even acknowledging the reasons as to why I unvoted?

As stated, your reasons for unvoting don't make sense in and of themselves, particularly in light of you not following up on it. And the stated reason especially doesn't make sense without waiting to see my response (the wait wasn't that long).

[Wickan]

I'm very strongly scum reading Wickan right now. I'm quite happy with my vote. This is based on:
-A chain of logic that a townie would basically never have,

Well, I did.

-His original vote of RC that wasn't explained until someone ELSE mentioned it (highly realistic scumpair of Wickan and Titus, probably even more likely than Taly),

I mean, are you saying that I voted RC for no reason? And only came up with that reason later? Yes, I didn't explain it at the time; I thought it an obvious reference to the post he had just made.

-It's small, but he did seem to oppose early discussion with his first vote.

It wasn't opposing early discussion so much as thinking that talah was really, really reaching with that logic.