Newbie 1671 - Game Over (Scum win)

[tictac]

@Plot
Why did you call Maxspir "Maxwell"?

Why give stats of your town-games but not scum-games?

20 evades a question by answering a different one. Why? I'm townreading you some, but that one was weird.

[tictac]

@franksa
I like the observation about Kuro on 56.
Why didn't you consider it suspicious?
Why express it only when prompted?

[tictac]

on 59:
OMGUS much?
Also Kuros vote was still on Coffee for RVS. Why not vote here?
@Kuro "You can't have it both ways." applies to you and is exactly the thing frank was expressing confusion about. Turning it around is just weird.

"cast doubt on me where there wasn't before."
Give me a break. Everyone is a suspect here

as you should well know if town

[tictac]

I did state it was only slight suspicion. I didn't even vote you. So no, I don't think I'm taking it far.

The posts speak for themselves.

LOL
@Kuro: You can be a timid newbie who uses FOS instead of a vote or you can be a guy who says stuff like:"posts speak for themselves"
You can't be both.

[tictac]

Wow Kuroi, I think you are defending yourself a bit too much. I ended our "arguement" and acknowledged that you are not a newbie and I misread you intention to act like one, then simply answered you last question and look at this now. This is at least weird from you...

I don't see him defending himself too much.

This post is pretty typical for Jake, but this instance could well be important, so I am highlighting it.

[tictac]

I'd also like to say that I'm going to be a lot more active on the weekdays than I am on the weekends. On the weekdays, I'm at work and I'm near a computer. On the weekends, my fiancee takes up a lot of my time - and if she isn't happy, no one's happy.

Since I was last online, here's what's changed from what I've read:

Jake - He says a lot without talking too much. It shows that he's paying attention and has the potential of being a dangerous player, but I'm getting a town read.

Raskolnikov (I'm going to start calling you Rask for brevity's sake, unless you're not comfortable with that) - Buttered me up a little as I was his only town read, but I found him quick to emotion for merely being accused of not giving reasons. Yes, I found you over-defensive. However, I can't say that's scummy because I don't know if you're normally quick to emotion. I'll be keeping an eye on you also.

Plotinus - I completely understand that he's trying to get the game moving and I can totally understand if you ask once or twice, but he's nearly asking everyone about everyone else. I don't see this as a scum read. In fact, I see him as town - albeit a bit quirky. If anything, it's just a little annoying to read.

Franksa - He does feel that I'm scummy, and I can actually understand why. I FOS'd him and he's defensive. I'm not lifting my FOS, especially since he reacted very strongly to it.

Now this brings me to one last gentleman... (or lady)

Phantom - I definitely have a scum read right now. It's quite possible that he's just an aggressive player, but having scum/town reads is hardly grabbing, let alone

too much.

Plus, explicitly asking Franksa's role is at best, naive. Either way, it doesn't help us. I think at this point, he's scummy enough to be voted, on Day One too.

Unvote. Vote: PhantomCobalt

This boils down to:
- "Plot&Jake (the experienced players) town."
- "I'm jumping on Phantom as third."
- "no commit on anyone else."

- "p.s. no behavior is alignment indicative without meta."

Come on people. How is Kuro not the leading vote yet?

[KuroiXHF]

I'm on 56 on my readthrough.
VOTE: Kuro

-I've yet to see scumhunting of any kind from him.
-54 asks the question "What is RVS". Before that the acronym was used in posts 31,27,25,22,21. Am I supposed to believe that the entire exchange about jake not RVSing was nonsense to him, yet he didn't feel compelled to ask about it before 54? As town? I think that shows profound disinterest in what others are saying in the thread. Contrast with 48 where he expresses belief that town can catch scum.
-He reacts to franksa's confusion about the matter as if it's an accusation. Almost as if he knew what he was saying was suspicious.

@Kuro: I'd like you to link some off-site games of yours.

My mafia playing has been on the Roughkut boards. When I checked on it before I signed up on Mafiascum, the Mafia board has been deleted. At least, I can't find it. Mods have asked me for links and I told them I couldn't provide them, but have found players here whom I played with a while back. So sorry, can't help you there.

You're struggling very hard for that whole RVS question. I can play Mafia, but acronyms and terminology I've only heard on this board isn't indicative of my skill. It's very unbecoming for you to focus so much on it. Your energy is better spent on something that means a damn.

BTW, if you want to shorten my name, please call me Kuroi - with an I at the end.

on 59:
OMGUS much?
Also Kuros vote was still on Coffee for RVS. Why not vote here?
@Kuro "You can't have it both ways." applies to you and is exactly the thing frank was expressing confusion about. Turning it around is just weird.

"cast doubt on me where there wasn't before."
Give me a break. Everyone is a suspect here

as you should well know if town

Everyone is suspect, but not every post is. Am I supposed to zoom in on Player A joke-voting Player B during the beginning post of the games? If something comes across as suspicious, I'll look a bit closer but to suggest I act paranoid on every vote isn't helpful.

So no, there wasn't doubt on me - not more than there was on any other person.

I did state it was only slight suspicion. I didn't even vote you. So no, I don't think I'm taking it far.

The posts speak for themselves.

LOL
@Kuro: You can be a timid newbie who uses FOS instead of a vote or you can be a guy who says stuff like:"posts speak for themselves"
You can't be both.

An FoS

isn't

a vote. It's letting them know that I have my eye on them. I said my reasoning for Franksa wasn't enough for a vote, although he implicated himself further the more he voted. If it wasn't for PC, I might have my vote on him right now. He actually posted a lot and I want to reread that, which I don't have time this very second. I just wanted to respond to many posts that are directed solely at me.

And the posts do speak for themselves. That's why I wasn't worried when he tried using my words against me. Like Jake said, I wasn't trying hard in defending myself - nor was I defensive.

[KuroiXHF]

How am I not the leading vote? I'm not the scummiest person right now.

Simple as that, buddy.

[Raskolnikov]

Has anybody had much experience with Plotinus: if so, is he the kind of player who would, if scum, go through all this for towncred? There's something that's giving me bad vibes about that unvote at this time. If he were scum it would be a perfect play, because he would know franksa is town and so it wouldn't bite him later (possibly franksa would then be NK'd to help this), and you would look really good changing at this time as regular scum would just take the easy lynch on someone who did actually act bad enough to warrant it. He also looks great for essentially saving PC since pretty much no one else explained or argued the motivations behind what PC did: of the 8 other players in the game, 6-7 of them being town, only Plotinus saw it from PC's pov, and a mafia would have been motivated to stay silent about the whole thing. If he was mafia these 2 actions would be genius as it gives massive towncred and should make him somewhat favourable to both PC and franksa for essentially saving them one after the other. The only reason I can't fully buy into this conspiracy is that I think if he were mafia he would wait a little longer and hopefully get a role claim from either player (especially franksa) in doing such a plan. Honestly I'm just paranoid about Plotinus because I know he's decent and I saw him nominated for the rising star scummy. The only reason it's worth considering for me is because I don't like his play before he posted his 2 cases either, he was sitting around asking questions and they weren't even good questions. Finally, for what little it's worth, I think his play so far could very well be planned. I think town would be more likely to be present often and gradual in action while I feel he was here-but-not-really-here up until recently; his sudden moves, this action all-at-once could very be what he was thinking up that time he was asking everybody those inane questions (given there was plenty of time prior to execution), which supports the possibility of it being some plan devised over time and suddenly sprung.

It's overthinking, reaching too far I know, but it bothers me. In the hope of quelling this paranoia I want to know how PC sees Plotinus at this point in time. PC is probably town (since it's become apparent what he actually did thanks to Plotinus), and I think you get more of a read when you are more involved with the person, and I think being on the same case and then getting read directly by Plotinus should give PC a fairly good impression.

Now I can't actually do anything with that except keep it in the back of my mind for now, and hope PC answers me and that the answer gives me some peace of mind. So I'm going with what looks like the more reliable lead, by-the-book: Plotinus being town and Franksa being the scum (if Plot is actually scum franksa is surely town). If it isn't a massive conspiracy (probably isnt), I am going to play as if Plotinus is probtown because I don't see a middle-ground in it actually. So I'm going to assume for now and probably a little while to come he is probtown.

VOTE: Franksa

1. I do get a minor scumread on him. In addition to what Plotinus brought up, I don't like 2 things. I don't like the interaction with Kuroi; I think its bad for him to criticize Kuroi's response as being quick to emotion when Franksa later reacts similarly to Phantomcobalt. It's inconsistent. If you respond similarly you should be able to understand Kuroi's response more (as I did). The caveat being that the responses were to very different questions, and so it's not quite so simple. Nonetheless I think it still applies to some extent. The other thing I don't like is his response to Plotinus: I feel he deliberately misinterpreted what Plotinus meant by "not every post in his ISO is scummy, but that's rarely the case" as what Plotinus was saying there was very easy to grasp and Franksa makes it out like it's some kind of propaganda which would incriminate anyone with a single scummy post.

2. I don't want this wagon ending right now.
-While my scumread is minor I don't have anything better as of yet and I don't want to not have any candidate as the day is getting late.
-Could still milk this for a bit more content
-This isn't a great reason but I'm pretty sure PC is town now so I don't feel bad following his vote. He should read the results of his test well considering he is a player to use such things (and I think it's demonstrated most of us had no experience of such tests, including me), and since I don't think PC is likely mafia he probably isn't lying about what he thinks about the test either.
-This is subjective and can't be argued for/against because its a sort of catch-22 and relies on my reads on other people as well, but I feel like too many people are dismissing a valid case without really considering it. If franksa is town I expect the wagon on him to be bolstered by at least 1 mafia. As it is, there is PC (I think probtown), formerly Plotinus (probtown unless my conspiracy theory is correct), me (Town), and Maxspir, who gave no comment with his vote, which I think mafia wouldn't have the balls to do. In other words I think the people who are/were on the wagon is too townish, which makes Franksa look bad, the logic being that a town should almost always have mafia somewhere on their wagon.

Now maybe Plotinus (or Jake) will come tomorrow and blow my mind with whatever he'll do next, but I think I'll hold on this for a while.

@tictac Hello! Can you comment (either way) on the 2 wagons we've had? Even if its just saying you think they were a waste of time, is still useful. As for your case on Kuroi I'm not really feeling the same way. I'm having trouble suspecting Kuroi because he posts just like how I think, and so scumreading him would almost mean scumreading myself. It's only as of the Franksa thing that it's toning down.

As a side note, since I have stated I expect a scum within [Franksa, Plotinus], I'll say I assume the other one to be one of the less engaged slots (3 of them). Narrowing it down right now I think is impossible given the lower content levels. I'm not sure what it's called but I think it was a fallacy or bias of some sort to look too hard within the thing you've seen more of; even if someone is scummy there is no reason to believe the guy away would not be more scummy if he was here. I have 1 I suspect a little more than the other 2 but I think it would be a bad time to mention it right now. tictac isn't in this category as replacing out/in isn't the same as engaging less on purpose, plus he gets towncred for me for trying to start a new wagon when I think mafia replacing in would have gone/voted for something way easier.

I'm sorry this post is a mess. I'll put a summary here since this was all over the place.

tl;dr

Plotinus is prob town because it would take genius mafia to do such a thing. Franksa did some scummy things and I'm reading the wagon on him as very townish (PC, Plot, me) + maxspir who I doubt would vote without a comment if he was mafia

[Zaicon]

VOTE COUNT 1.5

Maxspir_7 (0) -
ConvergentConclusion (0) -
tictac (0) -
KuroiXHF (1) - tictac
Raskolnikov (0) -
franksa (3) - PhantomCobalt, Maxspir_7, Raskolnikov
Jake from State Farm (0) -
PhantomCobalt (1) - KuroiXHF
Plotinus (1) - franksa

Not Voting: Jake from State Farm, ConvergentConclusion, Plotinus

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is Sunday, January 3rd 2016 at 8:45 pm PST or in (expired on 2016-01-03 20:45:00)

Prodding Maxspir_7.

[Plotinus]

i'm here, sorry. Weekend was stressful and it's taken a physical toll as well but I'm ok. Apologies if I'm a little less coherent and a little more rambly than usual.

If PC is town, he would answer Jake's question and explain exactly what he fishing for as far as a response is concerned.

I agree that he should explain these things now. It doesn't bother me that he didn't explain right away, but the explanation does need to happen eventually.

@Phantom: please answer the questions that people asked you about your reaction testing.

The fact that he didn't answer and is misrepresenting post 196 in which kuroi aggressively requests the explanation behind the reaction test indicates to me that he just pulled the reaction test to look like town searching for scum.

The first few times I read that post I didn't understand what kuroi was asking either. I was understanding "you called it a reaction test 4 times but you didn't call it a reaction test" but now reading your post I think it means "you called it a reaction test 4 times but you never said how you were expecting town to react, how you were expecting scum to react, etc"?

I think he did at least hint that I was on the right track in my guessed about the reaction test but it would be nice for him to put things in his own words.

PC's most scummy posts are his last ones, where he responds insultingly to accusations and questions without really addressing then.

I don't know if scum is more likely to respond insultingly than town. I think that might be more dependent on personality. Low charisma players like PC tend to get lynched more often than high charisma players, and trying to improve your charisma by not insulting people and answering questions that people ask of you is a good strategy as either alignment (perhaps moreso as scum because you're less expendable than as town. Scum can lose the game in 2 lynches. It takes town 3 mislynches to lose the game.)

What makes mafia is hard is figuring out whether the low charisma player is really scum this time or if they're just being their usual grouchy self and also figuring out whether the high charisma player is really town this time or if they're just dazzling everybody.

It gets a little easier once you've played with people a few times and know what they're like or if you've seen someone around enough to know whether you need to grade on a curve or not.

And then I spilled coffee on myself/the touchpad. Way to go Plotinus! Back soon with dry clothes. argh

[tictac]

It simply wasn't used on

any of the places

I've played Mafia.

My mafia playing has been on the Roughkut boards. When I checked on

it

before I signed up on Mafiascum,

the Mafia board

has been deleted.

Explain "any of the places" please.

You're struggling very hard for that whole RVS question. I can play Mafia, but acronyms and terminology I've only heard on this board isn't indicative of my skill.

Don't defend against points I am not making.

shows profound disinterest in what others are saying in the thread

It's very unbecoming for you to focus so much on it.

Your energy is better spent on something that means a damn.

BTW, if you want to shorten my name, please call me Kuroi - with an I at the end.

sure
VOTE: Kuroi

Everyone is suspect, but not every post is. Am I supposed to zoom in on Player A joke-voting Player B during the beginning post of the games?

Yes!

If something comes across as suspicious, I'll look a bit closer but to suggest I act paranoid on every vote isn't helpful.

Yes it is.

So no, there wasn't doubt on me - not more than there was on any other person.

So you decided scumhunting was suspicious.
Also: Yes there was. You were suspected of buddying until you flipped your attitude towards Plot to "annoying".

Like Jake said,

Do your own defending.

I wasn't trying hard in defending myself - nor was I defensive.

I think you were.
Now you aren't. I am detecting coaching.

Also: there is way more to scumhunting than seeing if someone is defensive or not.

[tictac]

@tictac Hello! Can you comment (either way) on the 2 wagons we've had?

Not fully caught up yet.

From pre-read skim I buy the PC gambit mainly because of the timing.
Franks reaction seemed natural to me. Confusion leads to suspicion and suspicion leads to a vote.
From 207 Plots case on him seemed to consist of townreading nearly everything he does+ that reaction?
Not sure why people thought it was convincing.

I expect a scum within [Franksa, Plotinus]

Why?

also:

Intent to Hammer.

Ending the day with substantial amount of time still on the clock is widely considered a scumclaim.

[Plotinus]

I understood the point, but I didn't understand the effectiveness, and I don't see it as effective. It's like asking a person suspected of murder if he did it when there's no evidence or anything pointing that person to the place of the crime.

I don't think it's usually effective but I thought it was this time. Now i'm not sure what I think. But early game we do have to make mountains out of molehills to get things moving.

Are you referencing Post #67 to Raskol? That's all I have for anyone other than Franksa. I can't find anything where he is reaction testing Jake - so yeah, I have to disagree with your assessment.

no, not 67.

• 79 shows how his read on Raskol was affected by Raskol's response to the Franksa reaction test.
  
• 86 isn't really a read on me but it's saying that my assessment of the situation is correct (probably a response to a pot of mine on that page).
  
• 89 shows further evolution of his read on Raskol (still based on Raskol's responses to the reaction test thing probably).
  
• In 95 he townreads you for your responses to the franksa/phantom thing.
  
• He's then townreading Max and Kuroi in 109, and i'm assuming it's still in reaction to the franksa/phantom thing because that's the main thing that was happening in the thread at the time.
  
• Then in 114 he says he thinks Frank and Raskol are scum and this still seems to be about the phantom/franksa thing.
  
• In 128 he is still townreading you and it still seems to be a response to how you're reacting to him.
  
• 176 he gives Max some townpoints.
  
• Finally in 217 he decides that me and Frank are opposite alignments, which I dislike because at least one of us is town.

So by asking Franksa if he was mafia, Phantom got reads on Franksa, Raskol, Kuroi, Me, and Max. I also got reads on a bunch of people based on this activity so yeah I think Phantom reaction tested the entire town in one go.



If I didn't respond to a point it means I didn't have anything to say other than "okay".


everything's in slow motion today. but my soup is ready at least. will try to keep responding to stuff after lunch.

[Plotinus]

So I intend to vote Franksa. I don't want to put him to L-1 right now though as I don't trust people not to quickhammer. If someone else puts him to L-1, let this be known as an Intent to Hammer.

@Franksa would like a role reveal (soft would probably be enough at this time)

I'm okay with most of this post (most of the parts i didn't quote) but wanted to say that if someone quickhammers without a claim they will fact

a lot

of scrutiny tomorrow (especially if the person is town after all). And we don't do claims until L-1.

[ConvergentConclusion]

i'm here, sorry. Weekend was stressful and it's taken a physical toll as well but I'm ok. Apologies if I'm a little less coherent and a little more rambly than usual.

If PC is town, he would answer Jake's question and explain exactly what he fishing for as far as a response is concerned.

I agree that he should explain these things now. It doesn't bother me that he didn't explain right away, but the explanation does need to happen eventually.

@Phantom: please answer the questions that people asked you about your reaction testing.

The fact that he didn't answer and is misrepresenting post 196 in which kuroi aggressively requests the explanation behind the reaction test indicates to me that he just pulled the reaction test to look like town searching for scum.

The first few times I read that post I didn't understand what kuroi was asking either. I was understanding "you called it a reaction test 4 times but you didn't call it a reaction test" but now reading your post I think it means "you called it a reaction test 4 times but you never said how you were expecting town to react, how you were expecting scum to react, etc"?

I think he did at least hint that I was on the right track in my guessed about the reaction test but it would be nice for him to put things in his own words.

PC's most scummy posts are his last ones, where he responds insultingly to accusations and questions without really addressing then.

I don't know if scum is more likely to respond insultingly than town. I think that might be more dependent on personality. Low charisma players like PC tend to get lynched more often than high charisma players, and trying to improve your charisma by not insulting people and answering questions that people ask of you is a good strategy as either alignment (perhaps moreso as scum because you're less expendable than as town. Scum can lose the game in 2 lynches. It takes town 3 mislynches to lose the game.)

What makes mafia is hard is figuring out whether the low charisma player is really scum this time or if they're just being their usual grouchy self and also figuring out whether the high charisma player is really town this time or if they're just dazzling everybody.

I definitely see your point here. I will abandon this for now, because it seems pointless and will only waste the town more time. But I have my eye on you, PC. I will come back to this later depending on my future reads of your posts.

The Kuroi wagon looks pretty pathetic, but I can see where it is coming from. At the very least, he feels a lot more like scum than Rask does despite similar play styles. Elaboration will come later, when I don't have to phone post (PP?). The Franksa wagon I don't want to be on either, since I don't see a lot of scum in his posts. That leaves Jake, Plot, Rask, Max, and TicTac.

I am tempted to start a Jake wagon due to low content posts. It just seems like town would have more to add. It is hard to tell though if this is not caused by lack of time. Also, he is not posting right now. I want him to ask him a question here: Could you give your current scum reads, and how you feel about the current wagons? Thanks.

Rask is my most solid town read. If asked, I will elaborate but is that really nessicary? Not for now. Max is inactive. TicTac replaced too early to get a read. What does that leave? Plot. Plot seems to be furthering the town with their giant wall posts and his logical PbPA. I say that they definitely could be scum. They add a lot of info that further the town on one angle, but all of them could be good posts for scum as well. It is just way to easy to see the scum motivation behind the posts, while with many other people and their posts the scum motivation can be seen much less easily. I would like questions answered. If you had no time left today and had to decide who is going to be lynched, who would it be and why?

VOTE: Plotinus

Expect another post with reads later today.

[Plotinus]

franksa - I really don't like his posts, his logic or how he's playing the game, but I don't believe he's scum based on it.

Rask, what specifically don't you like about franksa's posts, logic, and playstyle, and why do you believe he could be town in spite of these things?

I reacted for this:

Also, why do you care to bring up posts from page two when somebody mentioned he didnt like me? While creating pressure is fine, making people feel uneasy about me,remind them that they actually dont like me is something else especially when you derailed a wagon supported by sensible reasons and started a new one with no reasons at all?

If you think I am scum for doing this then you should vote me, or you should try to convince more people to vote Phantom if you think he is the most likely to be scum.

He didnt answer my question, but tried to make it look like he did.

I didn't realise that was what you were replying to. At the time I asked Rask that question about his read on you, I was scumreading you, and I wanted to know more about Rask's read on you because he seemed to be scumreading you and townreading you at the same time, or calling you scummy but still townreading you anyway and I wanted to know more about that.

So he had a scumread on me, but he not only did vote me, he also tried to make other people feel they should stop thinking I am town.

That is how this game works. If I think I am right about something, I am going to push it and will try to get other people to vote with me. How much I'm trying to get other people to join in will depend on how confident I am in my read.

203 - It could be an IC post helping Max or encouraging Max after he voted me. Before that post he scumread Max, then Max voted me and he started to be nice to him. It could be a conincidence I agree, this is just a note...

I didn't mention you at all in that post.

I want Max to start doing stuff because it'll make him easier to read. I think I'm back to scumreading him but he needs to be prodded or something.

Then he is talking about me mentioning my newbieness 3 times. Its interesting that he brings up the topic saying

...he's mentioned his newbie status a few times defensively.

Then he says

I think only the last one was defensive because the first two times there was no pressure on you

Bringing up the topic saying something overstating it, then he explains that he didnt actually mean that. He did this for the 2nd times against me. Last time he said I am not scumhunting then admitting that I actually do more scumhunting than he thought.

I misremembered and then corrected myself when I went back to look. I didn't need to correct myself; most people wouldn't have looked it up.

@Plotinus a direct question for you: why are you pushing the idea that I looked nervous, panicked, frustrated after PC's questions?

Because that's how you looked to me. I'm not the best reader of tone but your response seemed over the top to me. It didn't look like a calm reaction.

Also,Nobody has seen it like that,only you. Do you really think i was nervous there? Or you use this as another reaction test?

No I really did see it that way and Phantom saw it too. I guess the others didn't.

I do like that he gave his own opinion without being asked. The mafia have daytalk in this game, though, so I'm worried that he may have been prompted in private to give opinions too but I just realised who i was pairing him with in my head there and that's probably a mistake; this is very similar to a readslist except that instead of "town" it says "I liked the posts of" and instead of scum it says "I disliked" and as such I don't think Jake would prompt him in private to do that (but then Jake did prompt me to comment on people's entrances in response to my questioning other people so maybe Jake sees things differently) so he probably did come up with this post all on his own.

He is doing it again! First he puts the idea in our head that somebody is telling me what to do then he is admitting that this assumption is probably a mistake but he wrote it down anyway. He is an experienced player and i noticed him doing this for the 3rd time. I do believe this is intentional and I see this as a careful and very skillful "brainwashing" without the danger of being caught. He is trying to make all of us think the way he does.

Or I'm thinking out loud and trying to work out what I think by typing? Anyway, this is the part of the post where I started townreading you I think. The depth and breadth of this push against me feels townier than not.

At The end of his post where he analyses my ISO he says he thinks i am scum because not all of my posts are scummy only a few. He also says if all of somebodys post are scummy then that person is likely to be town. This doesnt make any sense. How is that even possible that somebody writes only scummy posts?

Most players in this game think that Phantom only writes scummy posts...

What happens if somebody only writes town posts? Is he scum then?

No. Or, it depends. Somebody who only writes town posts should probably be treated as town on day 1. And it depends what we mean by "town posts" anyway.

This seems like an explanation for why does he think I am scum even when reading my ISO doesnt generate scum vibes. Its like telling the newbies here that its doesnt matter if they dont think i am scum after reading my ISO, vote me because in my case not being scummy actually makes me scum. This is nonsense and obviously something a scum!Plotinus would do.

mentioning that some of your posts are townier than others is an attempt to examine your body of work in its entirety. It /does/ weaken my case against you. It does make it more likely that somebody else will look at those same posts and see something different than what I was seeing. That's not a bad thing.

One last thing then i end this post. I have read the mafia forum of the game he played an IC scum before this game. He carefully planned everything,and he won the game by taking somebody to LYLO who was not active when the last day ended so she could not change her vote. Plotinus said he choosed her intentionally because he is always aware that who posts when and he knows who is posting at night or at morning.

Link to where I said any of those things? That's not how I remember winning that game; LYLO lasted several real life days so an inactive person would have had time to post regardless of when they were awake or asleep. We lynched Performer day 1 because my buddy was tunnelling him basically. We tried to nightkill Smudger night 1 because he was looking like a good player but we failed because my buddy was jailkept. We lynched Neko day 2 mainly for inactivity. Night 2 we killed Mechagoomba because he was intelligent. Then Day 3 there 6 people alive and we lynched town for the win.

I do pay attention to details and I do carefully plan things, that's true.

I would have unvoted you if someone put you at L-1 before you had a chance to respond to your case on you. I would not have allowed you to be lynched without talking. I did want to lynch you and I did want you under real pressure and real danger of lynch because a person's reaction to being in real danger of lynch is a lot more telling than anything else they say in a game, but I would not have allowed you to be lynched while you were V/LA.

I guess where i'm at is that i don't want to lynch him while he's v/la but i don't want to lynch anyone based on preflip associatives with him because that's backwards, but everyone else is sort of v/la too for the holiday.

I was V/LA too when you voted me but nevermind that.

[Plotinus]

moikka tictac!

I felt similarly to you about Kuroi earlier on but then I changed my mind with his later posts. Idk. When you're caught up if you still feel that way about him let me know. I started feeling better about Kuroi on page 3 somewhere but I don't remember why now. Wasn't sure if he was just being sloppy on page 4 or scummy (at the time i thought sloppy).

@Plot
Why did you call Maxspir "Maxwell"?

Typo or autocorrect or something.

Why give stats of your town-games but not scum-games?

because i'm town

because in my town games I'm trying to lynch scum on day 1. In my scum games, I am not trying to lynch scum on day 1. So, in the games where i was working towards lynching scum, or at least my faction was trying to do that even if i wasn't there yet (i replace into games a lot), 27% of the time we succeeded.

In 100% of my scumgames we've lynched outside of my faction on day 1 but that doesn't mean anything particularly interesting. it doesn't even mean "plot doesn't bus on day 1" because in some of them i was trying actively to get my buddy lynched on day 1 and town wouldn't do it.

20 evades a question by answering a different one. Why? I'm townreading you some, but that one was weird.

I did answer the question. "sometimes!" meant "Sometimes we have real votes in the first posts". In one game that I played, someone placed what they called a real vote on someone who was really scum, but then they forgot about it later, and they were right for the wrong reasons, but their vote was both serious and correct.

Your townread on me is based on the 3 posts I had up until that time? At this stage in the game I haven't done very much yet.

And the posts do speak for themselves.

I have sometimes thought this about other people's posts but then people didn't see what i was seeing after all. and others have pushed things as self evident that i couldn't see at the time and i got frustrated with them and sometimes they were correct and sometimes they weren't.

I think town would be more likely to be present often and gradual in action while I feel he was here-but-not-really-here up until recently

If you mean my posting frequency, this is more dependent on my real life situation / how many games i'm alive in. If you mean something else, let me know.

asking everybody those inane questions

I've stopped doing this now that there's real stuff to talk about but the point of those questions was to try to draw people in and to get them to take stances, and perhaps luck into making people take stances on their partner if they have one.

Ending the day with substantial amount of time still on the clock is widely considered a scumclaim.

How do you feel about the "intent to put at L-1" part of that post?



@Convergent: I'm having a lot of trouble following the logic in 240. Can you try again? Am I a process of elimination scumread, then?

What looks pathetic about the Kuroi wagon? Why does it look pathetic if you can see where it is coming from?

What do you feel about Maxspir's inactivity?

What do you think about TicTac's catchup posts?

You say that the scum motivation behind my posts is apparent but you don't say what it is? What is the scum motivation for playing as I am, then?

@Zaicon: Max hasn't posted in over 4 days

[Raskolnikov]

I expect a scum within [Franksa, Plotinus]

Why?

Because I suspect Franksa and if it isn't Franksa there is a small chance it is Plotinus (as per conspiracy theory 213). Mostly its PoE though: I expect 1 mafia in the active players but I'm finding the others in good standing. It's sort of like Convergent's post 240 except that I suspect Franksa more, and scum franksa would make town Plotinus.

I'll illustrate what I mean
More active players (I expect 1 scum here)
PC, Plotinus, Franksa, Kuroi, Me

The problem with this list is that I'm reading too many people towny. I suspect Franksa but I do want to think of an alternative. So I have to think of which person seems town to me but is mafia anyways. And it's probably because he's a good player, but I think Plotinus is the most likely to be false-townread. But even so I still think it's unlikely and the hard time I'm having finding alternatives is what reinforces me thinking franksa is scum. So that's why I think of those two is scum.

Less active (I expect the other scum in here)
Max, Jake, Convergent

Not much to say about this group. tictac I'm not assigning as either active/inactive since his slot replaced out, which I consider different from normal inactivity, but he's townlean to me so it doesn't matter either way.
I somehow doubt both mafia are in this group afk all game, and we've been running in circles.

Ending the day with substantial amount of time still on the clock is widely considered a scumclaim.

You're implying that's what I wanted to do, which is wrong. That's a clear misinterpretation of what I said. Context is important. The very reason I didn't even vote him but said I intend to in future is because I didn't want someone quicklynching and ending the day. I said this in that very post. Basically the point I was trying to get across was that I support the wagon and would have voted had he not been L-2 at the time, so for that moment I would have a sort of have a ghost-vote with letting my intention be known. Finally, even if someone did put him to L-1 there's nothing wrong with holding an ItH for several days, I think. You are sort of right though, the "if someone puts him to L-1 let this be known as an ItH" was overzealous, I wish there was a softer version of ItH. I didn't want to be non-committal and I (obviously) trust my judgement not to quicklynch but I can see how that looks bad.

[Zaicon]

@Zaicon: Max hasn't posted in over 4 days

Prodding Maxspir_7.

[Plotinus]

sorry Zaicon x.x

[tictac]

moikka tictac!

I felt similarly to you about Kuroi earlier on but then I changed my mind with his later posts. Idk. When you're caught up if you still feel that way about him let me know. I started feeling better about Kuroi on page 3 somewhere but I don't remember why now. Wasn't sure if he was just being sloppy on page 4 or scummy (at the time i thought sloppy).

I've learned to scumread high showmanship+low actual content.
I'll see how it develops, but I'm not holding my breath.

+I'm thinking I caught him in an actual contradiction.

because i'm town

both serious and correct.

Could you link that?

Your townread on me is based on the 3 posts I had up until that time? At this stage in the game I haven't done very much yet.

Not everything I post or read is in chronological order.
+You pretty much started the wagon you have on now in 26 so you could have better reads(as town) or less influence(as scum).

How do you feel about the "intent to put at L-1" part of that post?

Newbish. A bit timid. We don't have lol-hammerish people here. Time for being squeamish about L-1 has passed.

[KuroiXHF]

It simply wasn't used on

any of the places

I've played Mafia.

My mafia playing has been on the Roughkut boards. When I checked on

it

before I signed up on Mafiascum,

the Mafia board

has been deleted.

Explain "any of the places" please.

I said it. Roughkut. I've also played it in an e-fed calling UWE. I can certainly point you to two members of Mafiascum, but I want a mod to assure me I wouldn't break any rules by telling you.

You're struggling very hard for that whole RVS question. I can play Mafia, but acronyms and terminology I've only heard on this board isn't indicative of my skill.

Don't defend against points I am not making.

shows profound disinterest in what others are saying in the thread

I'm not creating a strawman argument. You are faulting me for not knowing what an RVS is, implying that I'm new.

BTW, if you want to shorten my name, please call me Kuroi - with an I at the end.

sure
VOTE: Kuroi

Thank you.

So you decided scumhunting was suspicious.
Also: Yes there was. You were suspected of buddying until you flipped your attitude towards Plot to "annoying".

Buddying with Plot? I admitted that what I said did seem like buddying, because he wasn't walking on egg shells and creating a dreadful day one. If you think I'm scummy for that, go ahead.

Like Jake said,

Do your own defending.

I wasn't trying hard in defending myself - nor was I defensive.

I think you were.
Now you aren't. I am detecting coaching.

At this point, think what you want. The irony here is if I'm trying to make you believe that I'm not defensive, I would actually become more defensive.
Your jedi mind tricks only work on the weak-minded.

@tictac Hello! Can you comment (either way) on the 2 wagons we've had?

Not fully caught up yet.

Caught up enough to vote for me, though, it seems.

Are you referencing Post #67 to Raskol? That's all I have for anyone other than Franksa. I can't find anything where he is reaction testing Jake - so yeah, I have to disagree with your assessment.

no, not 67.

• 79 shows how his read on Raskol was affected by Raskol's response to the Franksa reaction test.
  
• 86 isn't really a read on me but it's saying that my assessment of the situation is correct (probably a response to a pot of mine on that page).
  
• 89 shows further evolution of his read on Raskol (still based on Raskol's responses to the reaction test thing probably).
  
• In 95 he townreads you for your responses to the franksa/phantom thing.
  
• He's then townreading Max and Kuroi in 109, and i'm assuming it's still in reaction to the franksa/phantom thing because that's the main thing that was happening in the thread at the time.
  
• Then in 114 he says he thinks Frank and Raskol are scum and this still seems to be about the phantom/franksa thing.
  
• In 128 he is still townreading you and it still seems to be a response to how you're reacting to him.
  
• 176 he gives Max some townpoints.
  
• Finally in 217 he decides that me and Frank are opposite alignments, which I dislike because at least one of us is town.

So by asking Franksa if he was mafia, Phantom got reads on Franksa, Raskol, Kuroi, Me, and Max. I also got reads on a bunch of people based on this activity so yeah I think Phantom reaction tested the entire town in one go.

These weren't reaction tests; they were simply his tells and what they were telling him. And that's cool. We've all been doing that. It's better than asking, "Oh hey, Mr. Maybe Mafia/ Maybe Not-Mafia, are you Mafia?

[tictac]

Ending the day with substantial amount of time still on the clock is widely considered a scumclaim.

You're implying that's what I wanted to do, which is wrong. That's a clear misinterpretation of what I said. Context is important.

You said "intent to lynch" man.
If you mean "I support this wagon", say "I support this wagon".

How are you more careful about putting someone in L-1 than lynching them?

+ I have a problem with your POE since you apparently cleared Kuroi and if your 1 active 1 passive is correct you are pretty much quaranteed to hit town in my view.
+ 1 active 1 passive probably isn't correct. Passive players are passive and active players are active. A different wincon doesn't change someones activity level.

I'll come back to this when I have more context on you.

[Plotinus]

just looked and it wasn't a vote it was a FoS but it should have been a vote.

My ability to have serious reads on page 1-2 is newish; started in October sometime. Unfortunately, the only completed games of mine that started since then were scumgames.

But, for example, i had a serious (and correct) scumread of this person when I was following along with the game before I replaced into it (but I was townreading the slot i ended up replacing into when it was scum).

I had a serious and correct scumread on goodmorning based on her posts in the first 4 pages of this game but I never replaced in (and I was wrong about who I thought her buddy was.) I don't really remember why, I think it was based on crumbhunting; she was softing something and somebody else was softing something that didn't match what she was softing and I believed them over her, or something.

Not everything I post or read is in chronological order.
+You pretty much started the wagon you have on now in 26 so you could have better reads(as town) or less influence(as scum).

hm?

In 26 I liked franksa for voting me because I thought newbie scum would be less likely to do that right at the start of the game, and I liked Aurora and Mormon for voting SEs. Was a "good enough for page 1" townread not a super serious one. But I was worried about franksa becuase I knew he'd read the last game I ICed where I townread Neko and Willow for the same thing early on, so I thought he might be doing it on purpose.

I was asking a bunch of people about kuroi on page 2 because I thought he might be scum and wanted to see if anyone got weirdly evasive about it or hinted at knowing too much, but I didn't get as much out of that as I would have liked.

These weren't reaction tests; they were simply his tells and what they were telling him. And that's cool. We've all been doing that. It's better than asking, "Oh hey, Mr. Maybe Mafia/ Maybe Not-Mafia, are you Mafia?

Those posts weren't reaction tests, they were posts in which he gave a read that seemed to be based on that person's response to his franksa push. One single reaction test against franksa but he also got reads on the whole town based on it, not just on franksa.

Maybe I'm just projecting though? I certainly got reads on a lot of people based on Phantom's behaviour and how they reacted to him. A spotlight was shined on franksa but there were 8 other people in the town reacting to that spotlight too.

I think you're accidentally voting yourself as a result of quote tag failure; you might want to revote whoever you were voting before just in case.