Newbie 1671 - Game Over (Scum win)

[Plotinus]

oh, heh.

I'm not sure how much of that still holds, but there are more recent games on my wiki. I'm still pretty talkative in my PTs about what i'm doing and why.

[KuroiXHF]

VOTE: Kuroi gut L-2

I have a feeling you're voting me just because I voted you. It doesn't make sense that you'd vote me for any other reason because you kept talking about how you have town reads on me.

[KuroiXHF]

I was a little nervous of mentioning it because I don't want anyone to get it into their heads that they should replace out RIGHT NOW and then they'll be considered conftown. That kind of replace out is called a strategic replace out and it's morally wrong (+ it would be really obvious it came right after I said this). Anyway, now that I have said it, any future replace outs should be considered null not a towntell.

I guess where i'm at is:

Rask

seems pretty town because scumhunting vigorously and town paranoia and depth of thought, I liked

Franksa's

self defence,

you're

town enough for research and scumhunting, i'm

townreading

phantom too. I need to see more from

ConvergentConclusion

to have an opinion there (I think I was underwhelmed by their posts but statistics and I think I remember that they were scumhunting at least),

Jake

hasn't done anything that bothered me really,

maxspir

seems to be in the process of flaking but I feel like he's really struggling to scumhunt and that bothers me, and

kuroi

has these posts that feel really genuine and friendly but you're right that there's just not much there when you really look.

I'll re-ISO convergent because none of their posts are sticking out to me in my memory.

How much

are

you expecting to be there on a Day One?

[PhantomCobalt]

VOTE: Kuroi gut L-2

I have a feeling you're voting me just because I voted you. It doesn't make sense that you'd vote me for any other reason because you kept talking about how you have town reads on me.

aight

[KuroiXHF]

VOTE: Kuroi gut L-2

I have a feeling you're voting me just because I voted you. It doesn't make sense that you'd vote me for any other reason because you kept talking about how you have town reads on me.

aight

This is one of the many reasons he has my vote. He doesn't respond to points. Townies shouldn't be this scummy, if he is town.

[PhantomCobalt]

VOTE: Kuroi gut L-2

I have a feeling you're voting me just because I voted you. It doesn't make sense that you'd vote me for any other reason because you kept talking about how you have town reads on me.

aight

This is one of the many reasons he has my vote. He doesn't respond to points. Townies shouldn't be this scummy, if he is town.

that isn't alignment indicative??

[KuroiXHF]

Scummiess is indeed indicative of one being scum. Calling someone scummy doesn't mean they're scum, but it does mean that they share a lot of scum qualities.

Not responding to points is scummy. Scummy is what scum are.

[Plotinus]

I was a little nervous of mentioning it because I don't want anyone to get it into their heads that they should replace out RIGHT NOW and then they'll be considered conftown. That kind of replace out is called a strategic replace out and it's morally wrong (+ it would be really obvious it came right after I said this). Anyway, now that I have said it, any future replace outs should be considered null not a towntell.

I guess where i'm at is:

Rask

seems pretty town because scumhunting vigorously and town paranoia and depth of thought, I liked

Franksa's

self defence,

you're

town enough for research and scumhunting, i'm

townreading

phantom too. I need to see more from

ConvergentConclusion

to have an opinion there (I think I was underwhelmed by their posts but statistics and I think I remember that they were scumhunting at least),

Jake

hasn't done anything that bothered me really,

maxspir

seems to be in the process of flaking but I feel like he's really struggling to scumhunt and that bothers me, and

kuroi

has these posts that feel really genuine and friendly but you're right that there's just not much there when you really look.

I'll re-ISO convergent because none of their posts are sticking out to me in my memory.

How much

are

you expecting to be there on a Day One?

I don't expect you to be scumhunting adeptly but I do expect you to be scumhunting. There are thousands of words in this thread already. Surely at least some of them mean something and indicate various motives people might have. Look at a post. Any post at all. Try to figure out what motivation a person has for saying it. If you're not sure, ask.

[KuroiXHF]

And I'm all for doing more than just waiting for cop to do our jobs for us. I'm sure I could be doing a better job, just like everyone else can seeing as perfection is always sought after, but never reached. Still, with that being said, I don't think I'm on the list of people who aren't doing their job.

[Zaicon]

VOTE COUNT 1.6

Maxspir_7 (0) -
ConvergentConclusion (0) -
tictac (0) -
KuroiXHF (3) - tictac, Plotinus, PhantomCobalt
Raskolnikov (0) -
franksa (2) - Maxspir_7, Raskolnikov
Jake from State Farm (0) -
PhantomCobalt (1) - KuroiXHF
Plotinus (2) - franksa, ConvergentConclusion

Not Voting: Jake from State Farm

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is Sunday, January 3rd 2016 at 8:45 pm PST or in (expired on 2016-01-03 20:45:00)

Replacing Maxspir_7.

[Plotinus]

I don't think I'm on the list of people who aren't doing their job.

who, aside from Phantom, is on this list?

(your position on Phantom is pretty clear I think)

[franksa]

Flying home at the moment, will make a post tomorrow.

[KuroiXHF]

VOTE COUNT 1.6

Maxspir_7 (0) -
ConvergentConclusion (0) -
tictac (0) -
KuroiXHF (3) - tictac, Plotinus, PhantomCobalt
Raskolnikov (0) -
franksa (2) - Maxspir_7, Raskolnikov
Jake from State Farm (0) -
PhantomCobalt (1) - KuroiXHF
Plotinus (2) - franksa, ConvergentConclusion

Not Voting: Jake from State Farm

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is Sunday, January 3rd 2016 at 8:45 pm PST or in (expired on 2016-01-03 20:45:00)

Replacing Maxspir_7.

You know, I wasn't aware that I'm the lead bandwagon right now. Hah.

I don't think I'm on the list of people who aren't doing their job.

who, aside from Phantom, is on this list?

(your position on Phantom is pretty clear I think)

It's a little difficult to answer with people leaving, but I've been weighing the switch to Franksa based on his admission of screwing up with the easiest (and perhaps pointless) of reaction tests. Rask and Jake come across strongly town, you're kind of in the middle, and most others aren't making contributions.

[Raskolnikov]

Well, that's a pretty lame reason to lean town on someone, but it would be stupid to ignore too.

I thought I'd mention I'm okay with or perhaps indifferent with the Kuroi wagon. I know I'm reading too many people town but the others I feel are for logical reasons (I've stated them before but can again if asked) whereas this was mostly gut, which I don't know is worth much. I don't understand, he showed depth of thought and similar pov as I did early, but I think staying on PC even now is way too stubborn. Even if I still thought PC was scum which I don't, another goal is productivity and action, and sticking on a stalled wagon like that which almost certainly won't go anywhere at least for day 1 just seems futile. Not just in the sense of lynching, but also of getting reaction or a conversation going: I think the discussion around PC's case has been exhausted for now. Assuming he isn't your only scumread (which would be ridiculous), I think the optimal play would be to engage and possibly explore your next best scumread, even if its lower it'll have a chance of going somewhere and at the very least develop the game further. And I think a town would be more desperate to do stuff even if its risky and less willing to sit on a rather safe sort of dead wagon.

The obvious counterpoint to this is that hopping bandwagons too often or frivolously is also slight a mafia trait since they want a lynch. I'm not sure how to reconcile this with the former point. Is it the two extremes which are bad and the middle which is normal/good, or do these things sort of cancel out and mean that one of these extremes isn't that much of a tell.

Damn. I started writing this after post 271 and then did something else before finishing, and I see through preview a significant amount of what I'm saying has since been said which kind of sucks. Whatever.
Oh yeah, after seeing the vc post: since max was inactive clearly before the logic was mentioned, I suppose he gets the same slight benefit upon replacing that tictac would?

[KuroiXHF]

Well, that's a pretty lame reason to lean town on someone, but it would be stupid to ignore too.

I thought I'd mention I'm okay with or perhaps indifferent with the Kuroi wagon. I know I'm reading too many people town but the others I feel are for logical reasons (I've stated them before but can again if asked) whereas this was mostly gut, which I don't know is worth much. I don't understand, he showed depth of thought and similar pov as I did early, but I think staying on PC even now is way too stubborn. Even if I still thought PC was scum which I don't, another goal is productivity and action, and sticking on a stalled wagon like that which almost certainly won't go anywhere at least for day 1 just seems futile. Not just in the sense of lynching, but also of getting reaction or a conversation going: I think the discussion around PC's case has been exhausted for now. Assuming he isn't your only scumread (which would be ridiculous), I think the optimal play would be to engage and possibly explore your next best scumread, even if its lower it'll have a chance of going somewhere and at the very least develop the game further. And I think a town would be more desperate to do stuff even if its risky and less willing to sit on a rather safe sort of dead wagon.

The obvious counterpoint to this is that hopping bandwagons too often or frivolously is also slight a mafia trait since they want a lynch. I'm not sure how to reconcile this with the former point. Is it the two extremes which are bad and the middle which is normal/good, or do these things sort of cancel out and mean that one of these extremes isn't that much of a tell.

Damn. I started writing this after post 271 and then did something else before finishing, and I see through preview a significant amount of what I'm saying has since been said which kind of sucks. Whatever.
Oh yeah, after seeing the vc post: since max was inactive clearly before the logic was mentioned, I suppose he gets the same slight benefit upon replacing that tictac would?

You've made your point and as much as I think PC is our best bet, it's clearly not gaining momentum and I doubt that I can convince anyone. Also, given the fact that there is more than one scum in this game, I'm left with few options.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Franksa

[Raskolnikov]

Rask and Jake come across strongly town, you're kind of in the middle, and most others aren't making contributions.

Wtf.
Okay, first of all you say Jake comes across as strongly town, which I really struggle to see given how he hasn't even been here. A weak read would be okay, but idk how do you get a strong read from someone who hasn't said much.

But the icing on the cake is that you say others aren't making contributions! How do you read Jake as town and then imply you don't read others because they aren't making contributions! Other people probably qualify for that way less than Jake would. Can you explain because I'm seeing a massive contradiction here.

[Plotinus]

Oh yeah, after seeing the vc post: since max was inactive clearly before the logic was mentioned, I suppose he gets the same slight benefit upon replacing that tictac would?

yeah. I think it would be pretty unlikely for him to almost respond to a prod in the last hour and then change his mind just because i made some minor point about statistics and then decide to fade away; if he was having fun playing mafia he would have been around more.


Being scum with daytalk is really really fun. You have a friend that you can talk to in private as much as you want and you know they're on your side and you can ask them for help if you're embarrassed to ask something in public and if you're struggling with what to do then they can give you pointers.

Being scum in your first game without daytalk is really hard because you have no idea what you're doing and your buddy has to be careful not to give you too much advice in public and you're probably messing up quite a lot but your buddy can't say "ffs don't use dice tags to decide whether to hammer someone who hasn't claimed or not" (true story) so you're probably getting bussed.


So it makes plenty of sense to me that newbie scum with daytalk are less likely to get discouraged and disappear.


but under the old model of "no idea how to scumhunt and then fades away into oblivion == scum," maxspir does look scummy, so I'd like to see how his replacement does.

[Raskolnikov]

And I'm all for doing more than just waiting for cop to do our jobs for us. I'm sure I could be doing a better job, just like everyone else can seeing as perfection is always sought after, but never reached. Still, with that being said, I don't think I'm on the list of people who aren't doing their job.

Minor nitpick but as far as I know cop isn't confirmed to be in our game. Read about the Matrix6 setup.

Ok checked and there are 6 variations and cop is only in 2 of them, so that's a 1/3 chance assuming each variation is equally likely. That's not much.

[Plotinus]

If scum have a roleblocker, the chance of a cop increases to 50%. This could be a slip.


There's an investigative PR of some kind in all of the setups: jailkeeper, cop, tracker, and some of the setups have protective PRs as well (doctor, 1-shot bulletproof). But the less we talk about PRs, the better. PRs talk differently about PRs than VTs do and it is fairly easy to narrow things down.

[KuroiXHF]

Rask and Jake come across strongly town, you're kind of in the middle, and most others aren't making contributions.

Wtf.
Okay, first of all you say Jake comes across as strongly town, which I really struggle to see given how he hasn't even been here. A weak read would be okay, but idk how do you get a strong read from someone who hasn't said much.

But the icing on the cake is that you say others aren't making contributions! How do you read Jake as town and then imply you don't read others because they aren't making contributions! Other people probably qualify for that way less than Jake would. Can you explain because I'm seeing a massive contradiction here.

Clarification: I had a strong town read early on in the game. He hasn't spoken much in the last couple of days, true - but as of right now, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt due to Christmas. If you want to be nit picky and if it makes you feel better, I'll call him slightly town.

[KuroiXHF]

Newbie Setup

Matrix6 (as designed by Cogito Ergo Sum):

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

Each Newbie Game will be given a setup that incorporates either one row or one column. The remaining six roles will be filled in by mafia goons and vanilla townies appropriately, to create a 2-mafia and 7-town setup. For example Row 1 (1 jailkeeper, 1 vanilla townie, 1 mafia goon) would add an additional 5 vanilla townies and 1 mafia goon, for a total setup of 1 jailkeeper, 6 vanilla townies, and 2 mafia goons.

*Roleblocker will take precedence over jailkeeper when resolving night actions should that apply.

I may have misread. I thought this table listed the roles in the game. It's never been in any game I've ever played, but this is also a "newbie" page and so I thought it was a tool to help new players - akin to training wheels on a bike if you will.

So yeah, mistake on my part.

[Plotinus]

The potential setups are:

jailkeeper

, 2

goons

, 6

vanilla townies

cop

,

doctor

,

roleblocker

,

goon

, 5

vanilla townies

1-shot bulletproof

,

tracker

, 2

goons

, 5

vanilla townies

jailkeeper

,

1-shot bulletproof

,

roleblocker

,

goon

, 5

vanilla townies

cop

, 2

goons

, 6

vanilla townies

doc

,

tracker

, 2

goons

, 5

vanilla townies

Right now, the scum team can narrow it down to either 4 or 2 setups and the PR(s) can narrow it down to 2 setups but on day 1 we don't care which setup we're in.

[tictac]

ugh.
If Kuroi actually believed there are 3 scum...

UNVOTE:
I'm getting paranoid about this.

[tictac]

rask pretty much outed himself by setting that up if it's fake thou.

[Raskolnikov]

Setting what up?