Newbie 1671 - Game Over (Scum win)

[tictac]

295.
I doubt he could think there are 3 people in mafia while in mafia.

[ConvergentConclusion]

295.
I doubt he could think there are 3 people in mafia while in mafia.

I don't think Rask said that. But if he did, then it's possible it's a WIFOM situation (I did my research). I don't think there is a whole lot to be gained thinking about it.

[ConvergentConclusion]

Ok so I no longer think that plot is scum. His contributions are moving the game forward, and I doubt scum would do that to that extent.

UNVOTE: Plotinus

My vote won't be parked anywhere for now, as I need to find the time to read through people's ISOs and collect my thoughts first. I might be done today or tomorrow

[Raskolnikov]

rask pretty much outed himself by setting that up if it's fake thou.

Now this actually took me a while to understand. I was really struggling to see how if Kuroi was lying it would "out" me, but I believe I got it. I think it's difficult to get so I'll explain for the benefit of others.

I'll start with the obvious. So 295 was Kuroi saying he thought it was a 3 mafia setup, and this is either true/false. If a true statement, it must be town, because a mafia player would right away see that he's wrong about it, as he would see there are 2 mafia instead of 3. So if its true he's town and if it's false he is mafia, as a town should never lie like that. Since being true seems more likely, it becomes an overall towny thing to say. I doubt he's so cunning as to be a mafia player and use an advanced strategy like this, to use his newbiness for a gambit like this. Unless his mafia partner came up with such a thing and told him, but even is pretty devious for a newbie game. So tl;dr its townish because being mafia would require it to be an advanced plan which is probably less likely. I think this is the situation in the basic sense, and I doubt many would disagree.

But what about the quote, how does that relate to this: well I'll say what I think he means. First I'll rearrange it: If it's fake, rask pretty much outed himself.

If it's fake (If Kuroi's statement is fake),
rask(me) outed himself (me? unless its a grammar mistake),
by setting that up (Kuroi's post?).

So I think the train of thought goes like, if it's a fake statement then he (Kuroi) is mafia, and this was an advanced plan.
But because getting Kuroi to say this would need the subject to be brought up, someone would have to prompt Kuroi for him to be able to say it.
So I assume you're implicating me of being a mafia scumbuddy of Kuroi if Kuroi is lying/mafia because what I asked was necessary for him to say what he did.
The other thing which would support such a theory is that such a devious plan would need someone who showed good planning to come up with it, and you might assume that someone such as me would be capable as a scumbuddy to plan and tell Kuroi how to do the entire thing, since Kuroi is a newish player who probably wouldn't plan something so cunning as scum.

At least that's how I could see your statement making sense, please correct me if I'm wrong or misinterpreted you.
But in the end yours is somewhat a moot point because
a) It probably isn't a fake post by Kuroi
b) Even if this were the case surely the priority would still be to lynch Kuroi, and speculate/revisit afterwards.

This is because this theory would rely on Kuroi being mafia as one of its premises, and a proposition can't be more true/likely than a necessary premise it relies on: either it's equal or less likely (and in this case it would be less). Which means it wouldn't be worth that much discussion right now, because the premise requires Kuroi is mafia and if you're going to assume that as a premise you would pretty much have to lynch Kuroi and then wait for the flip.

But it's hard to believe it's fake, and you show you don't believe it is fake through your unvote; I think it's likely a true statement as well. The only way I personally see it being faked (since I know I'm town) would be as a Plotinus scumbuddy plan as he's the only one I think who would be good enough to come up with it, and it would mesh with my previous conspiracy musings about Plotinus in 233. But it would be too hard to believe, which is why I overall judge them townish. Probably spent too much time on this one statement but I'm having fun overthinking things.

[KuroiXHF]

You have spent too much time, at least for now, but I really wish I was mafia with an elaborate plan.

[Zaicon]

VOTE COUNT 1.7

Sarg338 (0) -
ConvergentConclusion (0) -
tictac (0) -
KuroiXHF (2) - Plotinus, PhantomCobalt
Raskolnikov (0) -
franksa (2) - Sarg338, Raskolnikov, KuroiXHF
Jake from State Farm (0) -
PhantomCobalt (0) -
Plotinus (1) - franksa

Not Voting: Jake from State Farm, tictac, ConvergentConclusion

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is Sunday, January 3rd 2016 at 8:45 pm PST or in (expired on 2016-01-03 20:45:00)

Sarg338 replaces Maxspir_7.

[Jake from State Farm]

mod, I'm so sorry but I'm not going to be able to play. Things are just too hectic at work and at home and with a vacation coming up I just have no time to play and be productive. My apologies

[Zaicon]

pignash replaces Jake from State Farm.

[pignash]

Hey guys. I'll catch up and post by the end of the day.

[pignash]

Here are some thoughts:

Kuroi is up first. I found this: for you if you'd like. You do need an avatar. Hard to recognize a person in thread without one.

Spoiler: Kuroi

Well you do sound like a fella who played a couple of games. Correctly guessing a mafia team in Day One before the real voting started is... very rare - a lot rarer than "sometimes." From my experience with Mafia, it usually is a huge game of WIFOM: Player X joke votes, Player Y joke votes, Player Z looks at Player Y's joke votes and begins nit picking it, hoping to get some tell out of it. Then Player X looks at Player Z's post and thinks he's reaching for straws. They rabble back and forth and the person most convincing is alive while the other gets loved with the kisses of extra-durable rope, available now half off during the Christmas sale over at the Home Depot nearest you! ...and that person is most likely not mafia.

It's a game - you win or you die.

(In other news, I just got endorsement money by Home Depot and George R. R. Martin!)

I like this. ASOIAF reference and a coherent thought about the game of mafia.

I think he's kind of cute, but I'm biased.

Say what you will about my mafia skills, but looking down at the rays of sunshine I call comedy is plain hurtful.

I am light hearted when we play, because I've been in games that have turned to anger and people are angry at each other. I like to want to kill mafia, not the players.

Unfortunately, your information isn't useful unless you know my normal personality and can tell if there's a difference.

Like these less. Mostly seem like hanging out and buddying with people active in the thread instead of looking for scum to push on. But I also like to be nice and have fun and joke in these games. So this criticism is hypocritical and I won't put too much stock in it.

Plotinus, two questions:

1) Is 27% a thrown out number. If not, how did you calculate that?

2) Why are you so interested in how everyone views everyone else? Even by the end of Day One, our opinions will change. I don't suspect Player X right now, but I very well may suspect him at the end of the day phase. And our entering posts are really nothing to write home about. Some may be exciting. Some may be boring, but I don't really believe they can be indicative of scumminess.

Plenty to learn from early posts, implying that you shouldn't made me go over your first few posts to see if there's anything scummy you want people to avoid. Nothing terrible but every post in the thread is important.

You're question dodging as well.

Like this. Poke at someone while they are talking to someone else. Thumbs up.

Readslist:

town

: Kuroi and Ras are scumhunting, asking lots of people questions, displaying depth of thought

To be fair, Ras and I asking questions really only prove that we've developed some skill in the game and that we could potentially be dangerous. Without something concrete liking catching one of us in a lie or having a sane cop finding us guilty, all we need are the right words and context to be more innocent than Virgin Mary.

Back to the game, I'm tempted to unvote PC. He's not freaking out to everything I'm saying that points to him being scummy. AKA he is very scummy, but his reactions to accusations aren't. Now I've fallen victim to a WIFOM and need to follow my gut. For right now, I'm keeping the vote on - justifying that if we can't find scum, finding scummy will be almost as good because left alive, it will distract us later.

It's weird that you want people to be suspicious of you. I like that you are keeping an eye on Raskolnikov, that seems townie.

UNVOTE: PhantomCobaltVOTE: Franksa

Yay townpoints!

...eh, they looked more delicious in the ads.

UNVOTE: FranksaVOTE: PhantomCobalt

Fluff. Boo.

I read four failed opportunities to call it a reaction test, but no actual descriptions of it being a reaction test.

Problem with reaction testing is that if you say that you are, people react differently than if they think you're being sincere. I can see why PC doesn't give you his reasoning until later. But I have liked your attempts to push on him.

How am I not the leading vote? I'm not the scummiest person right now.

Simple as that, buddy.

Literal buddying.

Some good and some bad in Kuroi's ISO but I'm leaning town currently. Frank next.

[Sarg338]

Hey there! I'll be replacing Maxspir. A little background regarding my Mafia experience, I have played in 3 games on this site (1 from scratch I believe), although those were ~6 years ago. I've played one off-site, and while I might be able to find it if anyone is interested, it might take a bit! I have also played Town of Salem quite a bit. I had actually started reading and following this game once i replied to Zaicon to replace in, so I'm caught up!

I first want to say something regarding the recent "slip" of Kuroi before I make another post with any reads I have. He also mentioned a cop being in the game on post 48, that seemed to fly under the radar compared to this last one.

Maxspir, Mafia involves more than just the cop investigating someone and then giving it to the townspeople. It's a great help, but we have our part to do. Day One is mostly about building a foundation and if we are vigilant, we

can

find scum.

There's a few possibilities, which I'm sure we're all aware of.

Personally, because of his mentioning of a cop beforehand as well, I believe, for now, that he truly believed the setup to be those 9 roles. It's worth keeping in mind for later though.

Also, it seems maxspire's vote carried over to me, so I'll VOTE: Unvote for now.

[tictac]

295.
I doubt he could think there are 3 people in mafia while in mafia.

I don't think Rask said that. But if he did, then it's possible it's a WIFOM situation (I did my research). I don't think there is a whole lot to be gained thinking about it.

I get that you were confused somehow, but I don't get the thought process behind this at all.
What did you think I meant by that?

[tictac]

rask pretty much outed himself by setting that up if it's fake thou.

but I believe I got it.

Yeh. You either catch on fast or knew what the scum were doing.
What is your read on me?

[tictac]

Hello to pignash & Sarg

[pignash]

Franksa up next.

Spoiler: Franksa

I won't spoil the ending for you then.

Nicely done Plotinus, enjoyed reading that game!

Are we rating entrances now? If so, I give my oppinion.

I liked the posts of Kuroi, Plotinus, MormonCoffe, PhantomCobalt and Aurora.

I disliked Jake's and Raskolnikov's entrances.

Jake didnt seem to care at all, Raskolnikov simply didnt give reasons.

.

Buddying Plot at the beginning of this post, basically a readlist without reasons on page 2. No bueno.

Wow Kuroi, I think you are defending yourself a bit too much. I ended our "arguement" and acknowledged that you are not a newbie and I misread you intention to act like one, then simply answered you last question and look at this now. This is at least weird from you...

Looks like trying to jump on someone for being "defensive." Scum know who is town and it's hard to come up with reasons to scumread people, so they will grasp at things like this that aren't alignment indicative.

You may be in hell but I am not. I dont even know what are you talking about?

Your first and only post where you actually gave us some information about yourself is the last one, when you said I am mafia. You forgot to tell us your reasons but never mind that. Your post so far would establish a pretty solid scum read on you anyway.

To give weight to my opinion:

UNVOTE: Plotinus VOTE: Phantom

Emphasis mine, this bugged me. Like robotic gotta seem town scum bugged me. Will be putting my vote here unless I find something worse going through other ISOs.

I hope I will be able to finish this post now, I may have to continue it later from mobile. It is going to be long.

It seems there is a growing wagon on me so I will try to go through some things, explain others as well as answer the questions directed to me. I believe Phantom that he was reactiontesting me (looking back now it is obvious...), I was fooled by him, I didnt know such a thing exist, so I dont think he is scum any more. It was clearly scumhunting from him.

UNVOTE: Phantom

I would like to talk about Plotinus instead. He was the one jumping on the wagon when Phantom started it. While Phantom didnt try to find reasons, because he just wanted reactions for his accusation, Plotinus launched a war against me. Hopping on the wagon started by Phantom started to convince people to vote me.

franksa - I really don't like his posts, his logic or how he's playing the game, but I don't believe he's scum based on it.

Rask, what specifically don't you like about franksa's posts, logic, and playstyle, and why do you believe he could be town in spite of these things?

I reacted for this:

Also, why do you care to bring up posts from page two when somebody mentioned he didnt like me? While creating pressure is fine, making people feel uneasy about me,remind them that they actually dont like me is something else especially when you derailed a wagon supported by sensible reasons and started a new one with no reasons at all?

If you think I am scum for doing this then you should vote me, or you should try to convince more people to vote Phantom if you think he is the most likely to be scum.

He didnt answer my question, but tried to make it look like he did. So he had a scumread on me, but he not only did vote me, he also tried to make other people feel they should stop thinking I am town. This is like a cop with a knowledge of somebodys allingment (which cant be), or like a scum knowing I am town. He sounds like he is sure I am scum and trying to convince others to think the same.

Since post 131 I have been watching Plotinus's playstyle and I noticed some interesting things. These things may not mean anything at all, but because I actually read him scum now I have to make a note of them.

203 - It could be an IC post helping Max or encouraging Max after he voted me. Before that post he scumread Max, then Max voted me and he started to be nice to him. It could be a conincidence I agree, this is just a note...

Then he is talking about me mentioning my newbieness 3 times. Its interesting that he brings up the topic saying

...he's mentioned his newbie status a few times defensively.

Then he says

I think only the last one was defensive because the first two times there was no pressure on you

Bringing up the topic saying something overstating it, then he explains that he didnt actually mean that. He did this for the 2nd times against me. Last time he said I am not scumhunting then admitting that I actually do more scumhunting than he thought.

Why would he do these as town? More like a scum trying to frame me.

Newbie status: Even he said that I only used the 3rd one to defend myself. In post 100 I actually wanted to lecture PC about how to play this game. I forgot that he is an SE I thought he is a newbie too. Important note: I said in post 100 that I actually have some experience playing mafia games, but I also stated it would look bad if I start to lecture now since I am a newbie myself. I actually thought PC plays bad, I didnt want to protect myself when I mentioned my newbieness I simply explained why did I not start to "teach" PC. This is clearly a missinterpretion from Plotinus, when he accused me for using it defensively, he intentionally didnt even quote the part when I clearly said I am not a complete newbie which implies that he wanted you to believe something that is not true. Even more scummy vibes from him.

From now on i am from a mobile...

@Plotinus a direct question for you: why are you pushing the idea that I looked nervous, panicked, frustrated after PC's questions? Your only reason for this is that i didnt say "lol no" as a response? Also,Nobody has seen it like that,only you. Do you really think i was nervous there? Or you use this as another reaction test?
You have been talking a lot about my reactions and my "panic" vote on Phantom. Read that post again, do you really think i was panicking there? I dont even know where did you get this idea from. My only explanation is that you are scum and you try to get me voted out.

How did you choose this game to read instead of a different one?

Finally a question! It was on the first page of Rome and it was marked as completed so I started to read it. No other reasons.

I do like that he gave his own opinion without being asked. The mafia have daytalk in this game, though, so I'm worried that he may have been prompted in private to give opinions too but I just realised who i was pairing him with in my head there and that's probably a mistake; this is very similar to a readslist except that instead of "town" it says "I liked the posts of" and instead of scum it says "I disliked" and as such I don't think Jake would prompt him in private to do that (but then Jake did prompt me to comment on people's entrances in response to my questioning other people so maybe Jake sees things differently) so he probably did come up with this post all on his own.

He is doing it again! First he puts the idea in our head that somebody is telling me what to do then he is admitting that this assumption is probably a mistake but he wrote it down anyway. He is an experienced player and i noticed him doing this for the 3rd time. I do believe this is intentional and I see this as a careful and very skillful "brainwashing" without the danger of being caught. He is trying to make all of us think the way he does.

At The end of his post where he analyses my ISO he says he thinks i am scum because not all of my posts are scummy only a few. He also says if all of somebodys post are scummy then that person is likely to be town. This doesnt make any sense. How is that even possible that somebody writes only scummy posts? What happens if somebody only writes town posts? Is he scum then? This seems like an explanation for why does he think I am scum even when reading my ISO doesnt generate scum vibes. Its like telling the newbies here that its doesnt matter if they dont think i am scum after reading my ISO, vote me because in my case not being scummy actually makes me scum. This is nonsense and obviously something a scum!Plotinus would do.

One last thing then i end this post. I have read the mafia forum of the game he played an IC scum before this game. He carefully planned everything,and he won the game by taking somebody to LYLO who was not active when the last day ended so she could not change her vote. Plotinus said he choosed her intentionally because he is always aware that who posts when and he knows who is posting at night or at morning. He is aware that I am on V/LA but he still comes at me with everything. He hopes I wont be able to respond properly so he can finish the wagon on me.
All of these together make me think he is an obv scum. I think he should get voted out on the first day.

VOTE: Plotinus

Long post to quote to say something small (Why I'm using spoiler tags) but this seems like, "Shit they're on to me, I was getting tested, let's move suspicion somewhere else." I don't buy any of these arguments about Plot. But I've played with them and read (and Frank says he has as well) a few games with them and this seems really typical of her play (not Alignment Indicative).

No like. Plan on voting Frank right now, Plotinus is up next.

P-edit: Hi tictac.

[Raskolnikov]

What is your read on me?

As Plotinus said, replacing in is more likely from town, although I don't want to weigh this much especially given christmas/newyear. I assume at this busy time of year even some mafia replace out.
When you came into the thread you chose to start a new wagon as opposed to join on PC, franksa or Plotinus, which I think is slightly town as well. I think a mafia would be more likely to hop on an existing wagon and push it to a lynch, rather than starting a new case which has a good chance of not going anywhere. Even if you're mafia I have to say this action benefited the town through what he got from Kuroi. I think a mafia would also have been less likely to unvote Kuroi right after his post there, and instead would possibly cast doubt and try convince others to lynch anyways.
Overall it's a weak town, though I trust my other townreads more so I might have to think of this as more null for now, I'll explain why I'm hesitant:

So the thing is I have trouble reading more 'advanced' players; if someone knows not to make any obvious scum mistakes and especially if he does things like bussing it's going to be really hard for me to read them as mafia and catch them. So even though you and Plotinus do look town in action (my read on him being way stronger) I do have to reserve some doubt, and I find myself somewhat paranoid and conspiracy theorizing. Did he do these towny actions because he knew they would look really towny, for instance. So I trust my reads on players like PC and Franksa more. Even so, later in the game I can try to find scum through vca and just looking at actions which overcomes or reduces the problem of people who speak well. Finally odds are that the partner isn't like this and if lynched could give away such a player simply by looking at how this partner treated the player differently.

I'm anticipating how the 2 new replacements will act. Hello pignash and Sarg. Pig I'll read your cases soon.

[Sarg338]

ISO on Franksa, since he's the top of my list right now. Long post ahead, going to spoiler it to save room.

Spoiler: Franksa ISO

Kuroi confuses me. In 23 and 48 he looks like he knows this game, knows what is happening on day 1 and then he asks questions about it. I mean, if he knows we can find scum on day 1, why would he ask a question like he did in 19?

I think peopleare unfairly jumping on Kuroi for simply not knowing what an acronym is. My first mafia game off-site, I didn't know know what it meant either. It wasn't a forum dedicated to mafia, or even had a mafia subsection (Was just a game thread in the Off-Topic section of the forums). But you can know the game and the thinking/reasoning needed to play the game without knowing specific terminology.

Wow Kuroi, I think you are defending yourself a bit too much. I ended our "arguement" and acknowledged that you are not a newbie and I misread you intention to act like one, then simply answered you last question and look at this now. This is at least weird from you...

I don't think he was defending himself too much at all. You were really grasping at straws with the post quoted above, and then try to show him in a bad light here again.

Do you think town would be more likely to give a reason for their votes? What do you think of Coffee's response (or lack of one) to the votes on him?

No, by reading somebody's first post I cant tell a read. I simply meant what I said, I liked it, because he gave reasons.
The lack of Coffee's responses to the votes could mean he is town.

If he was scum he would have defended himself

. This is very straightforward logic, all of this can be faked, so I would only say I have a slight townread on him.

I'll say this right now, for everyone in the game, I don't like this argument, for either a defense or a reason to suspect scum. There's so much mind gaming, next level meta bullshit that you can do in Mafia that saying "If X was scum/town, he would/wouldn't have done this" is pointless from my point of view. And you acknowledge that it can be faked, so this isn't pointed towards you as it is a general thing for me.

You may be in hell but I am not. I dont even know what are you talking about?

Your first and only post where you actually gave us some information about yourself is the last one, when you said I am mafia. You forgot to tell us your reasons but never mind that. Your post so far would establish a pretty solid scum read on you anyway.

To give weight to my opinion: UNVOTE: Plotinus VOTE: Phantom

To question dodge I need to be asked questions first, dont you think? (btw, I havent seen anyone using emoticons yet, is it a site rule that we dont use them?)
I dont see where your play is going to, but its not my task to teach you, since I am a newbie myself. (Played maffia on different site tho)

Then we have the reaction test incident. While it was directed at Franksa, a few other people reacted to it. Which is good. Franksa's reaction is just... weird. Not only did he react to it and even took offense to something as simple as that, he also never just flat out disputed it. No "I'm town" or "No, it doesn't say that". He then goes on to say "To question dodge I need to be asked questions first, dont you think? ", as if the question was never asked. Again, not giving an answer. I don't like it.

[...] Also, why do you care to bring up posts from page two when somebody mentioned he didnt like me? While creating pressure is fine, making people feel uneasy about me,

remind them that they actually dont like me is something else especially when you derailed a wagon supported by sensible reasons and started a new one with no reasons at all?

This is a bit chaotic i dont have much time either but i hope i will get some answers and questions!
By the way,merry christmas for all of you!

Seems like just straight deflection to me, like you're trying to stay under the radar by saying your wagon is happening for "no reason at all" while the other wagon had "sensible reasons".

Then his long post. A post with content. Starts out on pulling his vote off of PC and agreeing with everyone that it was a reaction test, and immediately goes onto Plotinus and even casts a vote on him, which gives me a feeling of OMGUS, not to mention that most of his points in that post are just meh. I'll quote each part individually instead of adding it all here.

"203 - It could be an IC post helping Max or encouraging Max after he voted me. Before that post he scumread Max, then Max voted me and he started to be nice to him. It could be a conincidence I agree, this is just a note..."

Seems to be reaching. I read it as him just giving Max advice on the playstyle difference between the forum game of Mafia and the quicker style of Town of Salem. Seems very paranoid.

"He is doing it again! First he puts the idea in our head that somebody is telling me what to do then he is admitting that this assumption is probably a mistake but he wrote it down anyway. He is an experienced player and i noticed him doing this for the 3rd time. I do believe this is intentional and I see this as a careful and very skillful "brainwashing" without the danger of being caught. He is trying to make all of us think the way he does."

Not at all. He's "talking out loud", so to speak. Writing down thoughts, even when they are not relevant and his dismisses them. While I agree that, in a forum medium, it's intentional that he put it there, I don't see it as "brainwashing".

"At The end of his post where he analyses my ISO he says he thinks i am scum because not all of my posts are scummy only a few.

He also says if all of somebodys post are scummy then that person is likely to be town. This doesnt make any sense. How is that even possible that somebody writes only scummy posts? What happens if somebody only writes town posts? Is he scum then?

This seems like an explanation for why does he think I am scum even when reading my ISO doesnt generate scum vibes. Its like telling the newbies here that its doesnt matter if they dont think i am scum after reading my ISO, vote me because in my case not being scummy actually makes me scum. This is nonsense and obviously something a scum!Plotinus would do."

His (Plutonis') thought process is that, scum wouldn't want to make all of their posts come off as scummy, while town wouldn't care as much because they know they are town. So people who seem "scummy" 100% of the time is probably town, as he thinks the Mafia wouldn't want to be this obvious. I've already given my opinion on this train of thought, so I won't agree with it. Just explaining it.

"He is aware that I am on V/LA but he still comes at me with everything. He hopes I wont be able to respond properly so he can finish the wagon on me. "

I disagree. If he wanted the wagon to go harder on you, he would've voted on you. He gave you time to respond, and this isn't a LYLO situation. You can't draw a conclusion on that.

So far overall, Franksa is at the top of my list. I'm looking forward to his post today (hopefully) to see if my opinion about him changes.

[Raskolnikov]

Pig I'll read your cases soon.

Actually they aren't that long; I thought they would be massive, the spoiler tags were scaring me
I think if you are going to talk about Kuroi you should say be thorough and say something about (295).
As for the case on franksa naturally I agree and a lot of our reasons (I've already said mine) overlap.

[tictac]

weak town

Thanks.

The reason I asked is it looks like you spent some effort in figuring out my thought process 303, but you didn't consider the scum POW. At all.
I figure you should be suspecting me of framing you at least a little bit.

Could be naive town or could be someone who knows my wincon for sure. Looks like you aren't naive town.

VOTE: Rask

[pignash]

I left that stuff out on purpose Rask.

[Raskolnikov]

I figure you should be suspecting me of framing you at least a little bit.

Certainly was, to be honest. But even within that post I talk about how its a waste of time to speculate or talk too much about something which only applies if kuroi was lying, so I didn't want to get into a thing over it. I have to say I'm impressed you thought about that, though.

[tictac]

UNVOTE:
meh. Kinda like that response.

[Sarg338]

Next up is

PhantomCobalt

. This guy hasn't posted much content outside of the reaction test, which got good reactions, even from those that it wasn't towards. Couple times of buddying towards Plotinus.

VOTE: Kuroi gut L-2

Most interesting part of his ISO to me is this, after which a short back and forth between Kuroi occurs. It gets a (successful) reaction from him, quite a defensive one too despite just being at a L-2, especially since PC gave us a bit of insight on his beliefs of the game/voting in post #170.

A quiet, aggressive player that doesn't react to random claims and is dismissive. I can see how some people might find him "scummy" or hard to read. For now, town read to me.

Rask

Only discerning thing to me early on is implying Plutonis is scummy for asking others questions. Not only is asking question like that good, especially early when you have nothing real to go in, it's kind of his job as an IC, since most newbies wouldn't know how to do it properly. Null Tell.

Sticks on PC for a majority of his posts early, and even reacts himself to PC's reaction test. Not sure why he felt the need to come on like he did when it wasn't directed towards him at all, and at the same time, gives a reaction to PC's vote on him. Double success! Slightly scummy-ish to this point.

@Raskol why do you assume that I was scum-reading frank when I asked him if he was mafia?

Seriously? If you can't see even see why someone would make that assumption, I'm done arguing with you.

This is weird as well. Anyone who knew what he was doing wouldn't see it as a scumread. Not only should that request ("Your role PM says Mafia, right") being answered dismissively and not be entertained, but it definitely shouldn't be continually brought up after he gave his reason for it. It's like you bring it up hoping others will still see it as bad and agree with you and vote on him.

Next thing that jumps out to me is how 100% certain he is that PC is scum (Quote, "I don't have hope for PhantomCobalt though.", "At this point I am very convinced of his guiltiness", and "I hope for your sake you are mafia (I'm fairly confident)" ), he gives up the pressure/questioning of him, and instead jumps to 2 more targets (Jake and Franksa). Then you ask for a Role reveal this early into the game? You're essentially doing what PC did, which you didn't like and didn't understand why he'd do that.

Then you flip flop on PC 100%. This almost says the me "Well, that wagon didn't take off and probably wont, better give up and move to the next one".

Rask is #2 for me.

[Raskolnikov]

I haven't seen a reaction test before that, despite reading several games. Without knowing what he was doing, his play just looked really terrible and I was seeing almost certainly mafia or a really bad town player. At first when I thought when he said he was reaction testing that it some excuse to act bad and I didn't think about it. It was much later one morning I re-read everything with the new information and then I saw it does make him strong town.

[PhantomCobalt]

I haven't seen a reaction test before that, despite reading several games. Without knowing what he was doing, his play just looked really terrible and I was seeing almost certainly mafia or a really bad town player. At first when I thought when he said he was reaction testing that it some excuse to act bad and I didn't think about it. It was much later one morning I re-read everything with the new information and then I saw it does make him strong town.

Why strong town? What made you invoke such a strong read?