Newbie 1677 (Game Over)

For Newbie Games, which have a set format and experienced moderators. Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:17 am

Post by mykonian »

given that the cop won that game, I think i'd be fine anyway :P

And given that mina deemed me responsible enough to give me the IC seat of this game, I might as well digress in some theory discussion. And why not on scum play, one doesn't hear about it all that often, MS as a whole likes town better and scum tend to worry about giving away their secret plans and get caught. So all theory stuff in the wiki or MD is mostly from a town perspective.

I fear I've since lost the article by Thestatusquo, it might even have been made during one of the rewinds this site has gone through, but it contained an idea I've since seen a truth in. As scum, your goal isn't to play like you are town. You'll still be "acting" and it will never be the real deal. You might get it right to 99% (though I'd be surprised) but even then you'd get lynched more than when you are town. That cannot be the point. Your goal should be to roleplay "super town". The guy you could not hope to be when town. Just reasonable enough, just nice enough, harsh when it matters, having the right friends, the right enemies. You want to roleplay the guy you wouldn't think about lynching. Forget meta, unless you play with the same people a lot, MS actually hates arguments about it, and only a few players are really interested in it. So why bother playing like you do when you are town? Your audience won't even notice!

In stead, give your audience what they want. Get to know them a bit, think of what tells they think are scummy, what tells they'll see as town, and give them what they want to hear. They want that just about active player, who's post are meaningful (experiment with this, lots of posts make you hard to lynch, also makes hard to get points accross), they love someone who pushes and asks questions, but who's moves they can understand, things they would have done themselves. All townies are lonely. They just want that friend that understands them. And who'd be a better friend than you? :twisted:

What you do in the end and how you play it is up to you, it has to fit your person and style. But make sure you have a plan, a general idea how you are going to fool the town this time. Most bad scum are the ones who sieze up the moment they see that red role name in their role pm, and worry about every post they make, trying to achieve a strategy they cannot hope to manage (playing like they do as town). The difference is a matter of mentality. You can try to avoid everything, which is a negative approach, or you can try to fool your opposition, an active approach, setting the game to your hand. I'm a big proponent of the latter.
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:49 am

Post by PhantomCobalt »

Aight
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:32 am

Post by tojam2 »

Read Updates:

mykonian - continues to fail to explain contradictory comments, poor read on eventi - strong scum lean
hawkleader3 - trying to push blame onto someone - slight scum lean
PhantomCobalt - Something's just off - very slight scum lean
Natsu and the rest - useful comments e.t.c. - neutral
MochaMan - PC makes a good comment about too many questions, but otherwise clean - neutral
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:56 am

Post by mykonian »

why isn't eventi on your townlist then?
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:30 am

Post by tojam2 »

Eventi hasn't made a significant impact on the game yet, so he's neutral.

You mentioned 'his last post' - he doesn't point at PC, so I have no idea what you're talking about.
And you still haven't explained why you contradicted yourself - very strong scum lean.

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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:50 am

Post by MochaMan »

In post 93, PhantomCobalt wrote:Asking questions isn't as beneficial to the town as contributing your ideas and thought processes. It does benefit the town a little, but it makes mafia look town.

The notion that asking too many questions is scummy because it can make the mafia look like town is ridiculous.
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:53 am

Post by MochaMan »

In post 102, tojam2 wrote:MochaMan - PC makes a good comment about too many questions,

Ugh, I always forget to look over my posts once I'm finished with them.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:19 am

Post by Ruku »

I've reread the thread and some ISOs this morning, I need to catch up again.



mykonian -

#: I disagree with the % idea, we lynch the person who we think is the most scummy. The % doesn't matter at all, if you think that everyone is at %5 except me who's at %10, it's an obvious choice to vote me.

#: Why someone else? Saying that we shouldn't trust you because you might be scum is useless to town, should we just vote you off now and not listen to anything you say because there's a chance you could be scum. I'd much rather you give the information yourself.

#: I find it really hard to believe that you don't have ANY opinion on him at all. You keep commenting on the Wagon instead of actually telling me what you think of him. He's made several ridiculously weird posts, so much that he's amalgamated enough votes to put him at L-1 but still hasn't made any sort of formal defence. The reason the wagon was formed like that is because he hasn't responded to any points that people have made. He said he doesn't deal with accusations very well, but it feels like he's ignoring it all together... (Whoops, I wrote about Tojam more than mykonian here, but I find it really hard to believe you don't have an opinion on any of these things.)

Scum-Lean




PhantomCobalt -

"also, HI PC.

You should probably know better than thinking I'm mafia. You've just seen me play mafia. This is nothing like it :/"

Can PC give his opinion on this, what does he do when he plays as Mafia that's different to how he's playing now?



MochaMan -

# - It sounds weird like that because it's a bit misrepresented, I've seen cases where Mafia try to look like town by being really active and always pushing the game forward by asking questions but never actually giving their own opinions, I don't believe that's the case here however.


tojam2 -

The only town-ish content I've seen is the read-list(which I still have questions about). Everything else

Why didn't you vote for mykonian if you think he's a scum lean?
Why is it a poor read on eventi?
Why do you trust MochaMan?

Do you see how even though you posted your reads, you could of elaborated much further and given us more information? As town there is no need to hold views back.

After reading tojams ISO, I'm sticking with my scum read. I haven't had a chance to read over is other games yet but I'll do that when I get a chance (probably this weekend).

From his ISO of 7 posts.
#: RVS although he claims later to not know what it means.
#: Attempt to skip RVS before some players have even posted.
#: OMGUS attack on Natsu, really weird statements. "And I don't want to waste the first day getting killed by the scum trying to fool you all" ??????
#: Says Natsu jumped on the bandwagon where he was literally the first person to vote for him. (Thanks for pointing this out Natsu didn't notice that)
#: Quote 1: Useless fluff, completely disagree with the newb following SE statement. "I suppose I get to exploit that when I complete the game though" I literally have no idea what this means.
#: Quote 2: It doesn't matter whether you trust them, you shouldn't trust anyone at this stage unless your Mafia. Didn't really explain either of my questions...
#: Useless Fluff.
#: Useless Fluff / I find it hard to believe that if you've played 2 games before on this site you've never seen the L-x notation.
#: Read list, see above.

I wrote this in my reads of mykonian. But here it is again for convenience.
He's made several ridiculously weird posts, so much that he's amalgamated enough votes to put him at L-1 but still hasn't made any sort of formal defence. The reason the wagon was formed like that is because he hasn't responded to any points that people have made. He said he doesn't deal with accusations very well, but it feels like he'sa ignoring it all together...

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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:35 am

Post by PhantomCobalt »

I'm not going to be talking about meta this game because I believe it's a terrible scumhunting tool so I will not enforce it to newbies.
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:54 am

Post by MochaMan »

In post 99, PhantomCobalt wrote:@Mocha I was pointing your defense is invalid. Try again please!

I'm open to answering questions, but "Try again!" isn't going to cut it.
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:16 am

Post by PhantomCobalt »

In post 109, MochaMan wrote:
In post 99, PhantomCobalt wrote:@Mocha I was pointing your defense is invalid. Try again please!

I'm open to answering questions, but "Try again!" isn't going to cut it.

I'm almost confident that your one of the worst players this game has ever seen. :/

If I could we found out early d1 like you, I would try to make some effort to save myself.
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:24 am

Post by Ruku »

In post 96, PhantomCobalt wrote:Mocha your defense is trash.

In post 108, PhantomCobalt wrote:I'm not going to be talking about meta this game because I believe it's a terrible scumhunting tool so I will not enforce it to newbies.


Okay, sure. But he was talking about meta. I'm not happy that you're able to essentially communicate in a way that the rest of us can't understand, I agree with you that meta is a terrible scumhunting tool, but in this situation I wish to know what mykon meant by his statement.
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:25 am

Post by Ruku »

(Ignore the first quote whoops)
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:29 am

Post by PhantomCobalt »

I played in a game where myko was scum and I was on his wagon. He was saying that he was playing different from that game therefore not scum. Meta defense :/

I'll get a link to that game in a minute
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:32 am

Post by PhantomCobalt »

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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:55 am

Post by mykonian »

In post 104, tojam2 wrote:Eventi hasn't made a significant impact on the game yet, so he's neutral.

You mentioned 'his last post' - he doesn't point at PC, so I have no idea what you're talking about.
And you still haven't explained why you contradicted yourself - very strong scum lean.

Vote:mykonian


Not quite sure what you are so confused about. These are the two posts in question. RC got replaced, is PC now. RC was being replaced as that post was made. I don't know what's so hard to understand about my dislike there. Or how it's a contradiction of any kind?

In post 73, eventi wrote:Prodge, I'll try to catch up tomorrow.

@mod- Random Canadian hasn't posted yet


In post 75, mykonian wrote:...

I don't really like the last post by eventi. He's a bit eager to point to someone else (who's being replaced anyway, so he gets minus points for not reading the thread either, it's just 3 pages!).

vote eventi
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:02 pm

Post by mykonian »

In post 107, Ruku wrote:He's made several ridiculously weird posts


But is weird scummy? Idk man, it's been a while since I've IC'd before, but as far as I've remembered newbies would always be weird. And that's the way it should be, where else is the fun if everybody plays the same. Tojam hasn't, still doesn't really stand out to me. His posts are a bit what I'd expect, I guess?

I'm not quite sure why you'd ignore information that's readily available to you, PC. You've played with me just before, you know what my posts look like, how I enjoy playing. This isn't our first meeting, why pretend it is? Your suspicion is a gut read, so this is actually where you could apply meta, but very conveniently you forget to?

IDK mate. Seems fishy.
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:07 pm

Post by mykonian »

In post 108, PhantomCobalt wrote:I'm not going to be talking about meta this game because I believe it's a terrible scumhunting tool so I will not enforce it to newbies.


puts on the IC hat


Scumtells are never 100% accurate. As soon as people get to know them, scum does as well, will try to get around it or avoid the tell. Also townies just do random shit at times, you get false positives. That doesn't mean the end of the world though, there's always some people with which certain tells will work for you, some people who commit some as town and as scum. As long as you know who is who, your reads will get more accurate. So if meta means that you are going to look if someone ends their sentences with a dot as town, but not as scum, yes, they could easily change that. But they are hardly going to change what kind of person they are. So it pays to know if someone likes to wait, if someone is smart, if someone likes attention, etc. Probably will take a game or a couple, but you'll get to know people, and with that, you'll get better at reading them.

It's probably not a good idea to check people's interpunction, but then, neither is just applying general scumtells to everybody. You've got to find that golden mean :)
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:51 pm

Post by Natsu »

Nice, this thread is finally exploding. I'm going to post some thoughts on the recent developments:

-Breakout between Mocha and PC is weird to me. I'm not really sure where I stand on "asking too many questions can make mafia look town."
is odd to me because isn't the quotation above a form of meta analysis? Maybe I'm just not understanding, but it seems like PC is authoring his own meta tool there, or perhaps Mocha is just trying to make it look like a (ridiculous) meta rule of thumb. I'm currently very uncertain about these two.

Tojam2's play seems really weird, but I think he is starting to fall in line with the "so bad he can't be scum" thing. He seems to be just as clueless in his other games on here (no offense), so I'm thinking he is an average town-lean currently.
Minor question Tojam2, when you make your reads list why are you saying "Natsu and the rest."? You are lumping me in with two largely lurky players and then saying "useful comments etc. - neutral."

Hawkleader, Eventi, and Jachawk are WAY too lurky for my tastes. I think it especially looks bad on the former two because they are SE's. I would think players with more experience would be more proactive.

Mykonian is the IC and I'm having the hardest time reading him. He makes good points occasionally, but some things he has been doing seem really suspect. First of all, he hounds Ruku for using the RNG whereas I was just prodding him about it. I can let that slide, after all I hounded Tojam2 while Ruku prodded him. What does stand out is how sure of himself he seems. "We shouldn't let ruku get away with murder here!"

I like Mykonian's thoughts on Tojam2, but he kind of loses me with . It seems excessively wordy like he is trying to bury something, and beyond that, what are we supposed to take from it? I don't see anyone going around acting like "super town," and I haven't really noticed that as a strategy employed by mafia in the other games I've observed. The mafia I have observed thus far seem to use short one-liners quite often.
Mykonian, what is your vote on PC based on. Because from my perspective right now, it looks like you are trying to sneak a vote in on PC and bury it with that text wall that makes a new page.

Finally, before I started writing this I was going to say that Ruku was my strongest town lead. However, I just noticed that the can be construed as tunnelling on Tojam2. There's nothing I really disagree with about his assessment there, but it does seem to dig deep. Tojam also hasn't even tried to fight back on that stuff. But still, Ruku seems very town-leaning to me. I just like his attitude I guess.

Summary:
-Hawkleader, Jachawk, and Eventi need to post more to be factored in.
-Mykonian is a medium scum read for tripping over common newbie behavior from Ruku, but excusing Tojam's newbie behavior. Also made a seemingly unsolicited attempt to inform us on mafia-based strategy that doesn't even seem to apply to most newbie games.
-Ruku seems largely town, but it's based on feel I guess. Possible tunnelling attempt on Tojam2.
-Tojam2 seems to be either town that can't handle pressure or newb-mafia that's in over his head.
-PC vs Mocha: I'm not touching this one just yet.
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:45 pm

Post by MochaMan »

In post 110, PhantomCobalt wrote:If I could we found out early d1 like you, I would try to make some effort to save myself.

What?
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:54 pm

Post by PhantomCobalt »

I'm really liking Natsu's play
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:54 pm

Post by PhantomCobalt »

In post 119, MochaMan wrote:
In post 110, PhantomCobalt wrote:If I could we found out early d1 like you, I would try to make some effort to save myself.

What?

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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:40 pm

Post by mykonian »

In post 118, Natsu wrote:I like Mykonian's thoughts on Tojam2, but he kind of loses me with 100. It seems excessively wordy like he is trying to bury something, and beyond that, what are we supposed to take from it? I don't see anyone going around acting like "super town," and I haven't really noticed that as a strategy employed by mafia in the other games I've observed. The mafia I have observed thus far seem to use short one-liners quite often.
Mykonian, what is your vote on PC based on. Because from my perspective right now, it looks like you are trying to sneak a vote in on PC and bury it with that text wall that makes a new page.


100 is my thoughts getting there and deciding I might as well post what I think. You can take it or leave it, really, but maybe it's something you can use in this or the next game where you draw scum ;)

And you may be right, some mafia may post mostly short lines. I know of some guys who'd get very verbose when playing scum. Depends on the person really.


My PC vote has two parts of it. First that he pushed on on mocha with the argument that his defense wasn't "good enough". Defenses are never good. It's not how mobs work, nor suspicion in this game. Regardless of what people say, usually defending just doesn't do much, people suspect something must be going on because people are talking about it and the guy who's taking the attacks ends up getting lynched often enough. As such, saying someone didn't defend well enough is beyond quite annoying, just a null argument. PC creates a situation where mocha can never win.

Now on top of that, PC hasn't done all that much. He's commenting on the game with his oneliners. This hasn't really changed after I voted either. Somehow he thinks mocha is scum, but god knows why. "Don't worry your incompetence will reveal yourself", is just one such an example, it's a pretty useless post. I don't see any good reason to suspect mocha here, I'd say he's pretty town.

All in all, PC is a decent place to have a vote. Which obviously doesn't mean I'm completely off from eventi (nothing changed after my vote on him), but you know, might as well show where I am looking at that point in time.
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:16 am

Post by Ruku »

@Mod I'm requesting a prod on Eventi and jachawk
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:20 am

Post by Ruku »

Tojam2's play seems really weird, but I think he is starting to fall in line with the "so bad he can't be scum" thing. He seems to be just as clueless in his other games on here (no offense),


This is a worryingly good point, what is the standard for dealing with bad-town? I wouldn't want him in a LYLO situation but if he keeps going like this I doubt he would die in the night.

Also, we basically have 4 people not playing the game. What we do about this?

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