Newbie 1673: University of Mafiascum Class 108 - D4- OVER!

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Post Post #425 (ISO) » Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:45 am

Post by Workdawg »

Weird, I posted last night but it doesn't look like it went through... anyway.

In post 419, Usted wrote:Drixx is this games supposed most experienced player and has flipped town. Near the end of D1 he stated that he wanted me lynched. I'd say I'm a pretty easy target. Scum obviously saw this opportunity to make sure that I would be looked into today.

Also I was really pretty inactive D1 so idk if this site does any Lynch all lurkers policy lynches but I'd fit into that policy I'd say.

So your mixing a bit of WIFOM in with your OMGUS, I see.

Also, what about my question about Ness' wagon?
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Post Post #426 (ISO) » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:37 am

Post by Usted »

Sure, pushing on someone and then not voting them is inconsistent. If you think someone is scum then you vote them. I stated that I thought Ness was scum, but I never voted him. That is inconsistent and if I were playing as scum I would have played it differently. Which of course if a Wifomy answer but its the truth.
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Post Post #427 (ISO) » Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:27 am

Post by soulmonarch »

Try and remember that literally everything you ever say in regards to scum motivation is invariably WIFOM -- until you have a flip. No matter how good your theory is -- as long as living players are involved -- you can always immediately say: "BUT WHAT IF THAT'S WHAT THEY WANTED ME TO THINK!?"

It's usually not worth talking yourself in circles, just decide which one sounds good to you and go with for a little while.
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Post Post #428 (ISO) » Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:48 am

Post by Zar »

Day 2, Votecount 3


Not Voting (7)
: newbieinmafia, Usted, Kahlan, soulmonarch, Huntress, Workdawg, Extrapolated Eagle

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch or to no lynch.

Deadline
: Tuesday January 27, 2016 11:15 PM  New York Time. (GMT-5)
Countdown to deadline
: (expired on 2016-01-28 00:15:00)


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Post Post #429 (ISO) » Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:48 pm

Post by Workdawg »

In post 410, Usted wrote:...
(1)
Now, if I was scum I would have wanted to make sure that I was on that NESS train almost regardless of what other people were wanting to post because of the fact had stated that he was scummy to begin with.
(2)
I can see how me pushing on NESS a bit and then not voting him would make me look scummy
, but I don't really have to worry about being scummy this game because I don't have anything to hide.

In post 426, Usted wrote:
(3)
Sure, pushing on someone and then not voting them is inconsistent. If you think someone is scum then you vote them.
I stated that I thought Ness was scum, but I never voted him.
(4)
That is inconsistent and if I were playing as scum I would have played it differently.
Which of course if a Wifomy answer but its the truth.


I've put numbers on select quotes from your posts, and italicized the specific parts I'll be referring to.

I don't really feel like you explained anything in more detail, just sort of reworded things. 2/3 are pretty much saying the same things and 1/4 are pretty much saying the same thing.

2/3 is "(3)pushing someone and not voting for them is inconsistent ( (2)which looks scummy)"
1/4 is "If I were scum, I would have voted for who I said was scummy"

So I guess you're just saying that, if you were scum, you would have been more consistent. It sounds like you're trying to justify a scum-slip. "I didn't vote for who I said was scummy, which makes me look scummy, BUT if I were scum, I wouldn't have done that, so I'm not scum" ??

WIFOM indeed. That really seems like a long stretch compared to you just being scum, seeing an easy lynch coming up and wanting to avoid being on the wagon.

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Post Post #430 (ISO) » Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:12 am

Post by Usted »

So I've been thinking about this for a bit, even considered doing it day 1.

Now I think I've come up with a soft claim that allows our other tpr to remain hidden, but allows for them to better understand the setup without giving the same luxury to scum. And imo it also clears my name. You'll have to trust me a bit here. The reason I'm being sketchy about this is because if I just outright claim then scum will have a better understanding of why tprs they are against.

I'm a tpr and my role rests in the left two columns.
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Post Post #431 (ISO) » Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:03 am

Post by soulmonarch »

...huh.

I gotta say I don't know how that helps at all.

So now you've claimed that you are a townie and a PR. But we have no particular reason to believe you, right? (Other than your word, that is -- and none of us should be trying to convince people based on that. We are all suspect.) Given that you've got a couple people pointing fingers at you right now, it is entirely possible that it's just a gambit to get them to leave you alone. It would be entirely different if you were claiming an investigative role and a read.

Assuming you are telling the truth: You might avoid getting lynched, but you've just set yourself up to get NKed -- because it's a good bet that . What's more, town doesn't gain any useful information out of it either, since you didn't claim a cop investigation or anything. Or maybe town decides to lynch you -- because let's be honest: it
looks
scummy -- and you flip TPR, then it's Ness all over again.

I think the benefits to you if you are lying are fairly obvious, of course. >_>

Am I reading this all wrong? Anyone?
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Post Post #432 (ISO) » Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:11 am

Post by Usted »

The other tpr knows I'm telling the truth.
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Post Post #433 (ISO) » Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:56 am

Post by soulmonarch »

*blink* Ohhhhhh, I see what you're saying. (Took me a second.)

I... think I might be willing to take a chance on that. I need to do some re-reading tonight to see how the picture changes with that in mind.
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Post Post #434 (ISO) » Sun Jan 17, 2016 10:20 am

Post by Workdawg »

In post 430, Usted wrote:So I've been thinking about this for a bit, even considered doing it day 1.

Now I think I've come up with a soft claim that allows our other tpr to remain hidden, but allows for them to better understand the setup without giving the same luxury to scum. And imo it also clears my name. You'll have to trust me a bit here. The reason I'm being sketchy about this is because if I just outright claim then scum will have a better understanding of why tprs they are against.

I'm a tpr and my role rests in the left two columns.


What the hell... I've literally spent the past two hours trying to figure out how this helps town. I can't figure it out. The other PR will know you are telling the truth (assuming that is the case), but they can't verify that without giving up that they are also a PR. So you've essentially just bought yourself one secret ally out of the six of us. That ally can't even help you without doing even more damage to the town. This seems pretty self serving to me, but I guess I can't waste more time on you because of the chance it might be true.

VOTE: UNVOTE
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Post Post #435 (ISO) » Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:39 pm

Post by Huntress »

So we don't lynch Usted today.


Vote: Workdawg


Workdawg's smacks of crocodile tears.


In post 430, Usted wrote:And imo it also clears my name.

No it doesn't, although I see what you're trying to do if you're town.
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Post Post #436 (ISO) » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:40 am

Post by Kahlan »

Okay So for the past couple of days I have been trying to come up with something to post and I will try my best to post my actual thoughts today. I also have been trying to think of questions to ask but my mind keeps coming up blank and there are so many smooth talkers in here that it's a little hard for me to find scum. I'm going to go back a read again. I'll be back. (Sorry it's taking me longer than I would like to post. Let's just blame my mom brain. Once you have kids your brain is never the same...lol :D )
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Post Post #437 (ISO) » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:55 am

Post by Extrapolated Eagle »

In post 436, Kahlan wrote:Okay So for the past couple of days I have been trying to come up with something to post and I will try my best to post my actual thoughts today. I also have been trying to think of questions to ask but my mind keeps coming up blank and there are so many smooth talkers in here that it's a little hard for me to find scum. I'm going to go back a read again. I'll be back. (Sorry it's taking me longer than I would like to post. Let's just blame my mom brain. Once you have kids your brain is never the same...lol :D )


I know this feeling. I'm not even sure where to start right now. Drixx and Ness were my big two scum reads.
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Post Post #438 (ISO) » Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:01 am

Post by Kahlan »

In post 434, Workdawg wrote:
In post 430, Usted wrote:So I've been thinking about this for a bit, even considered doing it day 1.

Now I think I've come up with a soft claim that allows our other tpr to remain hidden, but allows for them to better understand the setup without giving the same luxury to scum. And imo it also clears my name. You'll have to trust me a bit here. The reason I'm being sketchy about this is because if I just outright claim then scum will have a better understanding of why tprs they are against.

I'm a tpr and my role rests in the left two columns.


What the hell... I've literally spent the past two hours trying to figure out how this helps town. I can't figure it out. The other PR will know you are telling the truth (assuming that is the case), but they can't verify that without giving up that they are also a PR. So you've essentially just bought yourself one secret ally out of the six of us. That ally can't even help you without doing even more damage to the town.
1. This seems pretty self serving to me, but 2. I guess I can't waste more time on you because of the chance it might be true.


VOTE: UNVOTE


Okay had to post this real fast before my reads. The bold part. 1. I actually kind of agree with that statement. 2. So I got to thinking that maybe workdawg knows that usted is telling the truth in some way but phrasing it a way as to not draw attention to it. Then he also unvoted which also make me think that he knows in that usted is telling the truth. Now with that said he could either be the other TPR or he can be scum. Those would be the only two ways of knowing right? Now workdawg is one of the smooth talkers I mentioned earlier. At times I feel he might be scum and at other times I feel he has some really good points. So for now I'm going to
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Post Post #439 (ISO) » Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:29 am

Post by Workdawg »

@Kahlan
- I'm feeling kind of the same way now that Usted has soft claimed. I really need to go back and reread the whole thread I think. As for my unvote, I thought that was pretty clear, but I guess I'll explain. My case on Usted is almost entirely WIFOM related. His vote for you instead of Ness yesterday and how he's responded to my case makes me still think he's scummy. Due to the very nature of WIFOM though, it's not a strong case. It's just the case that has had my attention recently.

Even though I can't think of a reason for him to soft claim, I think it's more likely that he is telling the truth than he's scum trying to pull some kind of gambit. Newbie and I seem to be the only ones interested in his actions, so it's not like he's under a lot of pressure that he needs to make a big move to save himself (if he's scum). So, that said, I don't think it's worth spending more time pushing him right now because it's probably not a good idea to lynch him today on the chance that he is a PR. Unless he does something really scummy, we probably should look at others. Even if he is scum pulling a big gambit, his partner is out there and it'd be better to try and find that person.
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Post Post #440 (ISO) » Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:26 am

Post by newbieinmafia »

Honestly, I am not sure what to make of the recent events but I agree with most of what Work's saying.

I like Work and Khalan for town. Considering Usted soft claimed PR, I will put him as town too. Through this (PoE), I have soul, Hunt and EE as possible scums. I liked EE in the beginning but he had become pretty much null to me. So I think soul and Hunt have higher chance of being scum.

For soul, I like his posts but I will agree with Usted that they contain a lot of flavor and I also don't like his change of tone toward Drixx when Drixx started to push him a bit.
For Huntress, she hasn't shared much and looking back at her ISO, it feels like she's just coasting through. I don't see a lot of scum hunting from her.
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Post Post #441 (ISO) » Mon Jan 18, 2016 1:06 pm

Post by soulmonarch »

Huh, sorry if "flavor" seems to make people suspicious. (Usted and Newbie have mentioned it at least.) I write posts in the same way I talk. If there was a way to type in hand motions efficiently, I would probably do that too. ^_^

Anyway, on to the real point of this post:

------

Blarg, okay this claim is not as simple as it originally appeared.

Usted has claimed to be a Town Power Role and that his role "rests in the left two columns."

This hint seems entirely predicated on the idea that the game setup is drawn from a single column of the matrix. If that was true this would potentially be a very interesting play, as it would virtually guarantee that Usted was either the Mafia Roleblocker or the Bulletproof townie. A Bulletproof Townie could successfully claim and their counterpart would be guaranteed to know, plus he could safely not get NKed (or the Jailkeeper could stay anonymous and protect him.) Or -- much more insidious -- the if Mafia has a Roleblocker, they would be able to confidently make the same claim and have it ring partially true to the Town Power Roles, confusing them into thinking Usted might be an ally. Either way, an interesting maneuver. Though I admit, even if he is telling the truth, I am not seeing any particular advantage for town right now.

However, the the game setup is drawn from one column
or row
. Which throws any semblance of logic right out the window. We could assume that Usted had simply not accounted for that fact -- that he was counting on the above scenario. The primary difference here is that now the marginal benefit gained by town in the prior scenario is completely gone -- the other TPR simply cannot know that Usted is really telling the truth anymore. As a mafia tactic, it hasn't necessarily lost any effectiveness though.

The options as I see them at the moment:

1.) If Usted is telling the truth: He most likely hasn't gained an invisible ally in the other TPR, since they cannot confirm the claim. All the VTs are just confused. Of course, Mafia already knows he's town but now they are forced to decide what to do with him. If he's Bulletproof, they could waste an NK -- but what if he's actually a Jailkeeper? Can they take the risk? (Of course, if they have a Roleblocker it doesn't matter... ) Overall, town really isn't coming out ahead in the deal.

2.) If Usted is lying: Some people will back off completely due to the soft claim. Both Town Power Roles are confused, not sure if they can trust his claim since there is no conclusive evidence. (A town cop might try to investigate him to be sure, but a town doctor might also try to protect him just in case he was being honest and he was under threat of nightkill.) Overall, it would be a fairly slick scum gambit.

-----

In both cases, it feels like a reaction to get suspicion off of him. But now that I've run through the scenarios, it also feels like a damn slick scum move. My gut is warning me that maybe I am reading it too hard, and it was just a not very well thought out town move.

If someone else reads this differently, please educate me.
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Post Post #442 (ISO) » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:18 pm

Post by Extrapolated Eagle »

Yeah, Kahlan has made it to strong town for me as well. I'm sticking with soul as a town read.

@huntress do you have any reads today besides workdawg that are based off of more than the tone of a single post?
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Post Post #443 (ISO) » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:44 pm

Post by Huntress »

In post 440, newbieinmafia wrote:For Huntress, she hasn't shared much and looking back at her ISO, it feels like she's just coasting through. I don't see a lot of scum hunting from her.

My scumhunting has mostly been by reading so far this game. I've probably read most of it about three times now but not really found any decent scum tells; just a lot of stuff that I keep second-guessing myself over. My read on Workdawg is mainly gut based on his Day one play.


In post 442, Extrapolated Eagle wrote:@huntress do you have any reads today besides workdawg that are based off of more than the tone of a single post?

My Workdawg read wasn't based on a single post (although that post was a bit of a classic scum tell), it came from my read of Day one, as I mentioned in . Not sure who else may be scum at the moment. I've been a bit busy the last few days so haven't had time to start questioning stuff.
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Post Post #444 (ISO) » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:48 pm

Post by Extrapolated Eagle »

Yeah. I've been reading through quite a bit as well.

How do you feel about newbie?
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Post Post #445 (ISO) » Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:38 pm

Post by Zar »

Day 2, Votecount 4
Workdawg (1): Huntress

Not Voting (6)
: newbieinmafia, Usted, Kahlan, soulmonarch, Workdawg, Extrapolated Eagle

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch or to no lynch.

Deadline
: Tuesday January 27, 2016 11:15 PM  New York Time. (GMT-5)
Countdown to deadline
: (expired on 2016-01-28 00:15:00)
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Post Post #446 (ISO) » Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:31 pm

Post by Usted »

At this point I see Soul as the most likely scum. It seems as if they tried to skew what my claim actually means. I thought out all of the scenarios in my head about what information my claim would give the other pr as well as what information it could potentially give Mafia.

I am in fact aware of the 1 column or row feature. That is the whole basis of my claim. Any time someone is a PR they know the exact setup between 2 options (their row or column). I don't know the exact setup but I do have it narrowed down between 1 row and 1 column.

I think would is also trying to town slip by talking about the possible existence of a Mafia rb.


And for the reasons stated above
VOTE: soulmonarch
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Post Post #447 (ISO) » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:44 pm

Post by soulmonarch »

Interesting.

So to be clear here: Your primary scumtell on me is that I have... analyzed your claim? And found it dubious? And rather than contradict my analysis by providing another perspective --
even when I specifically asked for input
-- your answer mostly amounts to "nuh-uh because I said so, stop asking questions"?

1.) How is mentioning the potential existence of a Roleblocker a slip? Why would mentioning any role be alignment indicative? Every person here knows a Roleblocker might exist, exactly as they know that a Town Tracker might exist.
2.) How have I 'skewed' your claim? You haven't explained any purpose of your claim to begin with -- as far as I can see, you did it only because Workdawg was pressuring you.
3.) Thank you for reassuring me that you were fully aware of the possible complexities of the situation before making your claim. But my final assessment of the situation was written specifically with those in mind and you did not even attempt to address in what ways I may have been wrong.

All I see is OMGUS here. But I'd be interested in real explanations if you had them.
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Post Post #448 (ISO) » Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:55 am

Post by Usted »

im not sure what you want me to respond to. You didn't ask me any questions. Your ability to analyze the situation so well makes me feel that you have more information than the VT's. God bless you if you are the other pr, because you should've layed low. Thus my vote remains.
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Post Post #449 (ISO) » Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:00 am

Post by Extrapolated Eagle »

I have to say I agree with soul on this one. I don't think being able to analyze properly makes one scum and I came to similar conclusions he did.

Your responses make it very easy for you to hide as scum behind a wall of ambiguity and I have to say that for a plan that wasn't supposed to really give anything away to scum to bring up that scum know more makes me think that you slipped a little bit there.

VOTE: Usted

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