Mini 1755: Game Over

[Dierfire]

VOTE COUNT 1.15

Raskolnikov (4): Keyser Söze, massive, AxleGreaser, Ircher
Ircher (3): Raskolnikov, UpTooLate, Boonskiies
droog (2): pisskop, Performer
Boonskiies (1): AlwaysInnocent
Pisskop (1): Golden Robster
AlwaysInnocent (1): Heat
Performer (1): droog

No Vote (0):

With 13 players living it takes 7/13 votes to lynch.

TIMER

(expired on 2016-01-21 12:00:00)

NOTES

Keyser on LA until 23 January

[UpTooLate]

@UTL I may have missed it but what's your read on AI , for pushing on your demise? You voted Ircher instead of AI.

You know, I really don’t get his vote on me. He says I’m opportunistic, but I don’t get how. If that were the case, there are a couple of wagons I could have jumped on, but didn’t, because I wasn’t 100% comfortable with them. I reread some things, and decided to see if I could get a reaction out of him as to maybe lend some insight into his thought process. He has been defending Ircher all game, no great reasons why. So, I decided to put pressure on Ircher to see 1) how he would react and 2) if he would give any more insight as to why he’s so sure Ircher is town.

He dodges getting asked about his reads on me by PK, decides Droog is town, and moves his vote off of me to pressure Boon. No real insight here. But then we get this:

The town-Ircher I know from Newbie 1666 is extremely open about his views, even when they are sometimes contradictory, or controversial.

I know this, because I was the scum framing him for his mistakes. We lynched Ircher in LYLO and won the game. I am not going to let that happen now that I am town.

I have not seen Ircher's scum game before. There is always a slim chance that I am wrong. However, I would expect scum-Ircher to be much more cautious than this. I think scum-Ircher would be easy to spot by being much less transparent, but that is just a guess.

Though it doesn’t help me figure out why he was voting me, it does give a little insight as to why he’s so hell bent on protecting Ircher. There were things that bugged me in Ircher's ISO, but after reading his case on Droog, he moves a up a little for me, mostly because it seems to come from a genuine place. By that logic, if Ircher moves up for me, AI is around there as well for his fight for Ircher, though his posts make me feel otherwise.

And since my vote on Ircher was more for reactions:

UNVOTE: Ircher.

VOTE: Heat

Nothing you've said has made me think "town." I know you've been V/LA, but even before then, there were only a few posts with meat in them, but a lot of one or two line posts that didn't really give me anything.

All that being said, I apologize for my lack of activity. Things got busy this week but I should be more active.

[Keyser Söze]

And since my vote on Ircher was more for reactions:

UNVOTE: Ircher

Spoiler: This vote does not look like a reaction test to me

Pushes for a PL over and over and over again, but doesn't want to be the one to do it. Nobody else is on board with him, so he jumps ship to Droog.

The rest of his posts just aren't convincing, and he doesn't seem solid on his reads

(seems like he could be easily swayed)

. I don't like this.

VOTE: Ircher

Later, you state your scum reads, but the way you did it seemed more like you were testing the waters to see if people were going to go along with them, rather than being confident in them yourself. Why should I feel comfortable with your reads if you don't seem like you are yourself?

I felt like you were saying he was scum because he was 1) pushing a policy lynch over a scum lynch 2) opportunistic voting 3) insincere reads 4) unconvincing thought process 5) bandwagon mentality.

What's your current position of the behaviour you highlighted?

[Keyser Söze]

Oh I'm back home now too so I'll be able to post more stuff soon

I can't remember if you answered this:

Spoiler:

I'm undecided on

droog

I'm also undecided on

deus

and

massive

. I haven't seen enough to form a solid read yet.

Regarding "undecided" - can you share with me both the positive and negative points you hold on droog?

I could see how the lack of activity of massive (7 posts) and Deus Asmoth (9 posts) could leave you undecided - but do you hold any positive/negative points on their slot too?

[Keyser Söze]

massive – I don't like how you stated you're easy to read as every alignment. I played only 1 game with you and I never had a strong townread on you before your flip in that game. Can you expand on why you say you're easy to read as every alignment, maybe including examples?

Can you explain why massive stating this was scum-indicative.
Is massive still in your "scummy" pile?

Is massive due a prod?

[AxleGreaser]

So you have big pile of blah blah 653 and wind up at null....

I nullread Axle atp, if it wasnt clear. Theres a lot of effort thats implied; a lot. But its nothing I consider town, and I do have trouble with him.

TBMK, that pattern of content wall => NUll read, is often looked at in bad light. It gets called filler, and stuff.

On this occasion... I townread you for it.

Earlier, when you were being wagoned, I indicated i was not interested in participating(116) and went to look elsewhere. A while ago I wrote 288 it stated there was more to come, and it was my intention to do that and number of things i have not. The need for the next post waned. In that planned post I was going to go through 96 and take it apart, a bit. At the time for balance I might have respun some of the case on you with other stuff, but I disagreed with large parts of 96 and thought that needed saying.

As i have now crossed the line to town read you. I will dip sideways into that content and pull out some bits for my townread.

I found

AI, you're full of piss and vinegar today?

to be potentially scum indicative observation. When I saw that post, i thought yeah that is whats making me feel uneasy. And scum do/can "feel" full of piss and vinegar compared to their normal play. The lack of uncertainty, the ability/control to kill who you want, and holding you own destiny in your own hands, changes the mindset of some players on some occasions when they get scum PM.

This observation also matched (to a degree) my state of mind at the time

eww. Its like you want me to push you for being shallow.

Various (for me related) thoughts had crossed my mind just prior to this.
I had been walking around the house saying, "This is a normal game there cant even be one jester in it, how come there are two! Then some rational bit in the corner of my mind would say

So... nope they're not jesters

then press the reset button. Then my mafia brain would reboot and analyse the game state again, and conclude there are two jesters... I was feeling a little nuts and running in circles." Your post helped break me out of that.

Both those things, combined with >other unspecified stuff< and your recent post now equate to town read.
I actively oppose a pisskop lynch today and prolly tomorrow and the day after, but hey, shit can happen.

[AxleGreaser]

AI - @AI : Please stop acting like you are omnificent and answer people's questions. It makes you look like scum (which is a possibility), and it also indirectly make me look like scum cuz you keep defending me.

I am not sure i can emphasize how much i agree with this statement.

And yeah the post flip association case is much stronger, AI is HARD defending Ircher. And while they have recently played together

I have not seen Ircher's scum game before. There is always a slim chance that I am wrong. However, I would

expect

scum-Ircher to be much more cautious than this. I think scum-Ircher would be easy to spot by being much less transparent, but

that is just a guess

.

his knowledge of scum Ircher is as he says

just a guess

, and yet the read is this strong

Again with the votes on Ircher. Stop voting for obvious town.

I cant make sense out that either. +

Spoiler: 609

My attention has shifted to UpTooLate and Heat now. I am pretty sure at least one of them is scum. Both are highly opportunistic.

You might say all kinds of things about heat, but i am not sure how you get highly opportunistic.

You said the first vote was highly opportunistic, and I didnt understand what you meant by that.
and I cant tell what since then you are saying is opportunistic either.

AI: Please treat this as a question, you offered read on the people you say your attention has shifted to.
But when I said i didnt understand it you failed to clarify it.

Please explain how Heat is "Highly opportunistic".
I cant marry that description with posts that I read.

purposefully opaque.. is the description that fits for me.

[Ircher]

Am I only leaning scum because of poe or is there something else?

I somewhat disliked your entrance and you've been V/LA for a while. There's also the fact I have a ton of other scum reads right now...

[Ircher]

Personally, I'm against the following lynches for D1:

{AI, Heat, Keyser, Ircher, Axle, Droog, Pisskop}

[Golden Robster]

Personally, I'm against the following lynches for D1:

{AI, Heat, Keyser, Ircher, Axle, Droog, Pisskop}

Why shouldn't we lynch Heat? What do you think he's done to stand out as a town?

Spoiler:

I want to lynch AI today.

Hes been avoiding questions all week, and is trying to

push me

based on stupid shit he can't even prove (how tf am I being opportunistic this game?) and I hate how he defends ircher

I've only skimmed the parts I missed but those are my thoughts atm.

Why would scum self-vote? What would they hope to gain from it?

1. I think there's a misunderstanding between Heat and me.

The reason why I sugget PL Pisskop was because he was unpleasant and self-voted

. As explained in my first game here, self-voting is objectively bad and

good evidence of scum

. I did not vote because I am wary of mislynches. Which, in Newbie 1666, you will be able to see I tend to err on the cautious side of things. Not to mention that we had three mislynches in a row that game (Zombie, who self-voted, Jake, who was being stubborn and uncooperative, and myself, because we were in lylo and there was lke a wall between me and DoTA who was town.) My reaction is normal.

I mean, self voting is bad and its a scummy action, but it doesn't necessarily make someone scum. The whole "lets PL pisskop!!" came really quickly after a few posts; I'm still holding my opinion that it was very opportunistic of you. In addition, you're now townreading pk, but you still aren't really stopping your whole policy lynch crusade? Do you still want to PL him?

The reads I gave at the time were the only reads I had. But atm they haven't changed much. AG, keysoze, and PK all seem town, although I'm not as sure on pk. I like UTL for town too.

AI and ircher are still scum. ras is getting worse.

HEY RAS WHY ARE YOU TOWNREADING ME

(you never answered </3)

@Ras Same, why are you town reading him?

UTL, what do you think about AI?

UTL, what do you think about AI?

I was a little turned off by his tunnel on PK, simply because I feel like he's feeding right into PK's obnoxious game. However, it seems like he's trying to engage with him more now, instead of just poke at him, which I like. He's asked people who aren't really giving much out about their reads, including you. I really don't see anything scummy with him wanting to hear from you before explaining his reads, as at that point you really hadn't given much. Has to be a give and take, ya know? Overall, I'm leaning town on him.

(I'd still like to know about his flip flop on me.)


Heat, might I ask why you like me for town?

UTL started out with some

really strong analysis

that I liked, and I do agree with a lot of her views on players, namely keysor and Pk.

She also has an Asuna avatar and I'm SAO trash so

Really strong analysis? What does that even mean? You mean this post down here?

Let’s talk about this wagon on PK. Burning and Ras voted him in RVS, then AI jumps on the wagon, changing his vote from Ircher to PK “because he’s scum.” He later lists his reasons, where Keyser “feels like sheeping this” and jumps on too, at which point PK just gives up and selfvotes putting himself at L-2 because he doesn’t care and this game is dumb. Ircher now wants to lynch him based on his poor attitude (but isn’t doing anything about it?).

AI’s reasons for voting him aren’t bad. PK has been at him with nothing of substance, with no sense of real intent. Unless, of course, he was just trying to see what reaction he could get out of the guy that, at the time, wasn’t really contributing much either. If that’s the case, it worked. He definitely got a reaction.

What’s really bothering me is the selfvote. He says he doesn’t care about this game, and yet, he doesn’t want to let somebody who does sub in for him. At this point, we’re put in a crappy situation. If we Policy Lynch like Ircher is suggesting, he may flip town and we’re already down on day 1, which isn't a good start. If we don’t and he survives the night, he may just continue with his current level of participation (or lack thereof) and draining attitude.

I guess what I want to know, PK, is what exactly is your intent with the selfvote?

What parts of the post do you like? Do you agree that we should PL PK? Why?

@UTL I may have missed it but what's your read on AI , for pushing on your demise? You voted Ircher instead of AI.

You know, I really don’t get his vote on me. He says I’m opportunistic, but I don’t get how. If that were the case, there are a couple of wagons I could have jumped on, but didn’t, because I wasn’t 100% comfortable with them. I reread some things, and decided to see if I could get a reaction out of him as to maybe lend some insight into his thought process. He has been defending Ircher all game, no great reasons why. So, I decided to put pressure on Ircher to see 1) how he would react and 2) if he would give any more insight as to why he’s so sure Ircher is town.

He dodges getting asked about his reads on me by PK, decides Droog is town, and moves his vote off of me to pressure Boon

. No real insight here. But then we get this:

The town-Ircher I know from Newbie 1666 is extremely open about his views, even when they are sometimes contradictory, or controversial.

I know this, because I was the scum framing him for his mistakes. We lynched Ircher in LYLO and won the game.

I am not going to let that happen now that I am town.

@Ircher, why is UTL opportunistic? Is he taking advantage of something? Explain.

[Golden Robster]

The first part, soz I put the wrong thing down. I meant, "If AI and Ircher are both scum buddies, wouldn't that make there relationship blindingly obvious when AI gives a lackluster explanation and compares it to a "gut" reading of Ircher."

Heat is pushing for a lynch on AI which I find interesting in the regard that UTL is also hinting at the fact that AI might be lean scum.

I need to look at the interaction between Heat and UTL because frankly, they might be scum partners.

[UpTooLate]

And since my vote on Ircher was more for reactions:

UNVOTE: Ircher

Spoiler: This vote does not look like a reaction test to me

Pushes for a PL over and over and over again, but doesn't want to be the one to do it. Nobody else is on board with him, so he jumps ship to Droog.

The rest of his posts just aren't convincing, and he doesn't seem solid on his reads

(seems like he could be easily swayed)

. I don't like this.

VOTE: Ircher

Later, you state your scum reads, but the way you did it seemed more like you were testing the waters to see if people were going to go along with them, rather than being confident in them yourself. Why should I feel comfortable with your reads if you don't seem like you are yourself?

I felt like you were saying he was scum because he was 1) pushing a policy lynch over a scum lynch 2) opportunistic voting 3) insincere reads 4) unconvincing thought process 5) bandwagon mentality.

What's your current position of the behaviour you highlighted?

My vote was built off of something that did actually bug me, and I also wanted him to speak on those points (I should have clarified that more in my last post, my apologies). The main reason the whole thing bugged me is how many times he pushed the PL and but was not willing to show any action. This bothered me because I felt like it would have been an easy out if PK flipped town and his wagon was analyzed. “He had a bad attitude, it was reason to policy lynch.” Had he have only mentioned it once or twice, I wouldn’t have thought anything of it, but it was his persistence that caught my eye. However, AI explained that PLs were a topic that was talked about a lot in their last game, so I can see why that was fresh on his mind.

As far as the feeling he could be easily swayed, 466 #3 along with his case on droog (which, again, I found came from a genuine place) and the details in his read lists since then, I feel differently about it.

[Dierfire]

Is massive due a prod?

Prodding massive

As massive has not responded, I am currently seeking a replacement. The deadline may be extended again.

[droog]

So hey

I'm seeing some momentum for url lynch
But I was hearing a lot against performer
And now I'm not

[droog]

Does anyone have any reads on perf
Besides me

That is a hard scum read
That I've gone into a few times
That ofor find constant even as
My Irchir and Pk reads evolve

[Heat]

Jeez UTL, did you roll scum again? And no Keysor, I never did answer that. I'll answer in a sec.
gotta make myself some food

[UpTooLate]

Jeez UTL, did you roll scum again? And no Keysor, I never did answer that. I'll answer in a sec.
gotta make myself some food

Was I town until I put pressure on you?

[Keyser Söze]

Heat ISO re-read analysis.

I think he would deserve a Policy Lynch, but as I stated, I'm not jumping on the wagon because there is a good chance I'm wrong and pisskop is just being stubborn.

It sounds a lot like you want his lynch but don't want to take responsibility for it

Re-reading this exchange I can understand Heat's perspective/worry better.

Give me time to make reads and get engaged. D1 isn't my strong suit

Heat took a while to engage many players - his early focus was on Ircher (his attention was admittedly warranted).

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and it kinda signals to me that he knows more than the rest of us, aka he's scum.

I'm currently voting for AI. Like who just refuses to discuss their reads list because the other person hasn't contributed? its a reads list, and you must have reasons for them. And I'd like to know them.

Heat could only see scum-motivation in Ircher's actions - I can't see Heat weighing up if this was town-Ircher. Here Heat concludes AlwaysInnocent's actions are scummy (not bad-town). When Heat sees something negative, it looks like Heat will usually jump to that being scummy.

I'm going to flag this again:

I also don't like Ras. I've barely done anything to deserve a townread. It's come out way too quickly.

How/why did Raskolnikov have a town-read of Heat by post 194?

Does Heat do anything to follow up with this "don't like Ras" comment?

I still don't like rask. I'm not really sure I want to lynch him today though. just gut feeling he might be a ML bait

Heat posts this, but I can see no real pressure/interactions with Raskolnikov to show me that he wants to clarify his read with him: is he scum? Is he lynch bait?

I'm undecided on droog

Again, Heat passes opinions on players but I can not see the thought-process or work that got him there. If you are fence-sitting, tell me how you got there.

AI, can you give an updated reads list?

This is one of the few questions Heat has directed at a player - but will it help him gauge what alignment they are?

Heat has been missing from the thread for many phases then posts this:

I want to lynch AI today.
Hes been avoiding questions all week, and is trying to push me based on stupid shit he can't even prove (how tf am I being opportunistic this game?) and I hate how he defends ircher

My gut reaction to this is that it is opportunistic. It feels like Heat has read the thread and sheeped the case on AlwaysInnocent. Unfortunately, I cannot see where Heat has personally got to

"I want to lynch AI today"

.

Null scum lean.

[Keyser Söze]

everything performer has said on this page is towny

Can you re-read the posts that made you say this, and tell me if anything has changed?
Performer has escaped my radar recently (he was previously a town-lean).

[Golden Robster]

UNVOTE: Pisskop

[Ircher]

I'm against a D1 Heat (and Droog) lynch because I think another day may help in sorting them out.

[Golden Robster]

I'm against a D1 Heat (and Droog) lynch because I think another day may help in sorting them out.

Who would you lynch then?

[Boonskiies]

highlight his fluff? It'd be easier if I highlight what wasn't fluff. Ircher's entire posting is fluff and looking for something to stick.

You cannot believe something 100% unles you prove it. So go right ahead and prove that the majority of my posts are fluff.

Scum annoyed he's found out for a reason

he

thinks shouldn't be accurate. But alas, it is.

[Heat]

Keysor, sorry for the delay lol these are my droog thoughts

Droog shows good early scumhunting, namely in 306 where he talks about his dislike of UTL's analysis post of the pisskop wagon, and in 349 when he tries to get AI to asnwer pisskops wagon. I like both of those posts because it shows that he's having original thoughts. He isn't sheeping anyone. I also like how he's been pushing AI to actually answer questions, which is something that he has failed to do repeatedly.

He also seems pretty town in his argument against ircher starting around 426. It culminates to a vote on ircher in 437 for all very good reasons.

But then, he drops his ircher scumread in 527 because he thinks ircher is town again. Because ircher is new. Gut feeling has me thinking thats off.

And then theres an argument with pisskop around 543 or so, but neither of them look particularly town in that so.

Looking at the beginning his iso was really towny and now its sort of fallen short. Theres not a lot of actual analysis going on anymore. But I think a lot of my problems with droog stem from the fact he uses enter too much.

I think I'm leaning null-town on droog now. I'm riding on that beginning towniness.

[Boonskiies]

Spoiler: Reads

Confirmed Town

(From my perspective):
Ircher - Role PM

Likely Town

Keyser - Prob. the most towny player overall in game so far. I will just put this out there that later, like D3 or so, I will strongly reevaluate my Keyser read if he's still alive.
Pisskop - He's finally contributed some very useful info. And again, his playstyle is not something that I think (most) scum can successfully pull off.

Leaning Town

Golden Robster - Cannot really elaborate here, more gut than anythng.

Neutral

Performer - Where'd you go? You stop participating! I liked your entraced, but you have not said much since then!
AI - @AI : Please stop acting like you are omnificent and answer people's questions. It makes you look like scum (which is a possibility), and it also indirectly make me look like scum cuz you keep defending me.
Axle - Ok I guess.

Leaning Scum

Droog - My read on him is getting weaker as I speak -- at least he participates
Massive - Stop being lazy and contribute
Heat - Considering my other reads....

Likely Scum

Boon - Claims all my posts are fluff yet refuses to prove it. If it really was that obvious then it would be easy to prove. No, I'm a good lynch target as I have suboptimal play, so all the scum decide to target me. Those who are voting me I strongly believe is not because I am very scummy, but rather, I play differently from others and that makes me a good target to frame for a lynch.
Ras - Still one of my top scum reads as he has not really participated ever since Droog replaced in. While right now I think Boon is prpb. at the top of my list (some reasons are prob. selfish), I would think he be the best lynch for D1. None of his behavior has been extremely towny, and he has been around the top of my list right now.
UTL - This guy is somewhat subtle. It's only after reconsidering the other things that people have said about his play that I'm makes me start to doubt his sincerity. Droog has gone down my list because he's active, and Heat, well, I think Heat is being a bit genuine compared to some other people in this game. I will have to keep a closer eye on this one.

I am fully aware I have a ton of neutral/scum reads. The only way that's changing if all these lurkers (Boon, Massive, Ras) start contributing a lot more.

I offcially hate lurkers right now. It killed town last game I played, and it's killing me right now.

My most confident reads right now are {Ircher, Keyser, Pisskop, Ras}. The rest are either kinda participating (AI, Axle), close to being lurkers (Golden, UTL), or lurkers (Boon, Massive, Ras). This excludes Droog, who I just have a weak read on, and Heat and Keyser who are VA.

@Game: PARTICIPATE

Like I stated above, imho, Ras would be the most logical lynch right now.

UNVOTE: Boon
VOTE: Ras

Really? See this everyone. He is legitimately going from one to another. My wagon started picking up steam, he went to it, based off of 'lurksack' reasoning. Now he's going to Ras, the current wagon. Come on. This actually gives town cred to Ras for me right now.