Blitz 21 - Hope plus One ―kibou― [End]

[Mad King Ashnard]

You're referring to which with the second? cuz we've played 3 at least.

[Ankamius]

Let me read RC my own way. I'll catch him eventually if he's scum.

That's fair but why are you townreading him in the first place now.

And please do comment on my case on Scatterplot. I'm surprised a lot of people just glossed over it and haven't said a word about it until I started prodding them.

Because the way you read RC is by how he attacks people. I'm not ruling out the possibility that he understood what I was getting at with my question and worked around it, but his response was town enough that I'm not going to worry about it for a while.

[Ankamius]

You're referring to which with the second? cuz we've played 3 at least.

You're right, I missed one.

The second one was the newbie game. The one I missed was the one ActionDan modded.

[Sakura Hana]

You are right that the behaviour is odd and i probably missed a lot of it during my spat with Wisdom and others.

Vote: Expedience

[Ankamius]

Ocean: I'm not all that convinced, mainly because removing meta from it removes most of the teeth in that case. I have to analyze cases like that to have a particular opinion on them and I absolutely refuse to look into games that I was never in. What's there without the meta points looks like it could easily just be personality tells to me, so shrug.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Postie said something along those lines, Ank.

*cough*

Share? :\

[Ankamius]

Share what?

[Mad King Ashnard]

This mysterious meta read about how I push people as town and scum.

At the very least, commit to share it after the game?

[Ankamius]

It's not a specific thing that I'm aware of. Rereading this should give you a better idea of how I think about it.

[OceanWind]

Ocean: I'm not all that convinced, mainly because removing meta from it removes most of the teeth in that case. I have to analyze cases like that to have a particular opinion on them and I absolutely refuse to look into games that I was never in. What's there without the meta points looks like it could easily just be personality tells to me, so shrug.

Well you should be looking into other games then. This is slam dunk case of someone who's town and scum play are miles apart to the point where they are one of the easiest players to read on site.

Why are you dismissing them as "could just be personality tells" when you don't know that that is the case?

Regardless of meta, what scumhunting has Ether done in this game?

[OceanWind]

You are right that the behaviour is odd and i probably missed a lot of it during my spat with Wisdom and others.

Vote: Expedience

Sakura, why the easy hop to Expedience here while putting your read of Ether on hold? If I recall correctly, you voted them early in the game and had no reason to change your mind. But when deadline is approaching and votes at this point means the target is likely to be lynched, you vote Expedience with no hesitation but first ignore my case on Ether, and then when asked, say you'll look at it tomorrow.

[Ankamius]

Well you should be looking into other games then. This is slam dunk case of someone who's town and scum play are miles apart to the point where they are one of the easiest players to read on site.

No. If several people make the same claim to the point where it would be extremely illogical for it to be a scum push, then I'll accept people's word about someone's meta. Until then, I'm treating all meta cases as null at best. One of my biggest pet peeves is when people make BS meta cases when they have no personal experience playing with that person, so I absolutely refuse to try to meta read two players I have no experience playing with (not including hitchcock since I died basically as Plotinus replaced in).

This is not aimed at you specifically, but this type of reasoning is why anyone who is scumreading Antihero at all this game is straight up not paying any attention to the game.

Why are you dismissing them as "could just be personality tells" when you don't know that that is the case?

ew. This question reeks.

Regardless of meta, what scumhunting has Ether done in this game?

What I've noticed from Ether is similar shit I do when I'm falling behind and trying to catch up, so I'm less hesitant to give it a pass for the moment.

[OceanWind]

Ankamius - my problem is that you are refusing to even consider Scatterplot as scum almost as a policy. You are essentially saying "Meta? Nah. Ignore." That strikes me as a very shallow method of scumhunting where you are categorically dismissing everything scummy about Scatterplot under a blanket label of meta.

Without meta, are you townreading Scatterplot? Is there a reason you are being so charitable to Ether's lack of contribution? Ether isn't a player who falls behind and fades out while trying to catch up.

I don't care if you think my question reeks. What I'd like to know is why you are so willing to assume that the points I brought up against Scatterplot are personality tells. Which ones do you think are personality tells?

[Sakura Hana]

You are right that the behaviour is odd and i probably missed a lot of it during my spat with Wisdom and others.

Vote: Expedience

Sakura, why the easy hop to Expedience here while putting your read of Ether on hold? If I recall correctly, you voted them early in the game and had no reason to change your mind. But when deadline is approaching and votes at this point means the target is likely to be lynched, you vote Expedience with no hesitation but first ignore my case on Ether, and then when asked, say you'll look at it tomorrow.

I'm honoring RC's attempt at convincing me, something i've never seen him do before. Besides in the case that i agree with you on Ether after reading the case, it doesn't matter which of the 2 dies first, does it? Or do you disagree that Exp is scum?

[OceanWind]

I'm honoring RC's attempt at convincing me, something i've never seen him do before. Besides in the case that i agree with you on Ether after reading the case, it doesn't matter which of the 2 dies first, does it? Or do you disagree that Exp is scum?

Mad King Ashnard made three main points against Expedience in Post 835.

Argument number one: Firebringer vote came out of nowhere. This is a fair accusation although Expedience did say that he found KTthecreeper's recent posts scummy. And Expedience wasn't active at the time these posts were made so I could plausibly see him suspecting KTthecreeper/Firebringer's slot.

Argument number two: Expedience "soft-defended" Talah. Knowing I'm town, I know there's nothing to it. Ashnard leaves open the possibility that Talah could be town but the thrust of this argument relies on me being scum with Expedience and since I'm not, that's hardly convincing.

Argument number three: Expedience voted Scatterplot as a counterwagon to someone else. RadiantCowbells is convinced that there was scum on the Scatterplot wagon and says that Expedience is it. Well for one, I'm super-confident that Scatterplot is scum so I doubt that scum are any more likely to be on the wagon than off. I like Expedience's vote and push on Scatterplot. There's a remote possibility he's bussing but more likely he just found Scatterplot scummy because they're scum.

It relies on a) associative tells and b) the assumption that Scatterplot is town. RadiantCowbells never once substantiates convincingly why Scatterplot is town. He just assumes they are town and starts scumhunting on the wagon. I'm town so the associative tells are meaningless to me.

The only semi-decent point is that Expedience put Firebringer at L-1 without warning and I want him to talk more about that when he gets back. I have a townlean on Expedience but I'm not solid on that.

[OceanWind]

I don't scumhunt.

You were scumhunting fine here. What happened?

[Ankamius]

Ankamius - my problem is that you are refusing to even consider Scatterplot as scum almost as a policy. You are essentially saying "Meta? Nah. Ignore." That strikes me as a very shallow method of scumhunting where you are categorically dismissing everything scummy about Scatterplot under a blanket label of meta.

Without meta, are you townreading Scatterplot? Is there a reason you are being so charitable to Ether's lack of contribution? Ether isn't a player who falls behind and fades out while trying to catch up.

I don't care if you think my question reeks. What I'd like to know is why you are so willing to assume that the points I brought up against Scatterplot are personality tells. Which ones do you think are personality tells?

Post 166: More details into why this is scummy. Trying to manipulate Ranger with this post is only likely in my eyes if ranger has other scum in her sights at that point, which doesn't make much sense to me unless you're scum as well (since the only other slot I have an active scumread in that half of the readslist is Sakura Hana, whom I'm not quite as sure about anymore) and you didn't give any other scumreads up to this point that indicate you thought along the same lines.
Post 476: talah and KTthecreeper were popular scumreads at the time. Wisdom was a popular townread. I'm not convinced by the ranger point because I remember ranger responding to 166 at some point saying that a lot of what Plotinus said was reasonably accurate and I've seen a lot of people give out townreads early on as town for people that come to the same conclusions as them. Expedience is a wildcard since the last mention before that post is a townread and the next mention after it is a vote. You could make a case that the reads list is opportunistic to an extent, but what you're accusing it of being is not what I see it as.

Post 236: This isn't scummy at all. 1v1 wallfests are fucking awful to read and do absolutely nothing to forward the game, so Ether specifically calling for a 1v1 wallfest to end is reasonable as town.
Post 230: This is the only point that has teeth in it. This post IS weird now that I look back at it. It's not enough to override any of my other scumreads, but it's a start.

Now stop misrepping me.

[OceanWind]

I'm not misrepping you, I'm trying to figure out your motivation for how you reacted to my case on Scatterplot. That said, the rest of this post gives me a townlean although I still think you are very wrong here.

Post 166: More details into why this is scummy. Trying to manipulate Ranger with this post is only likely in my eyes if ranger has other scum in her sights at that point.

It has nothing to do with whether or not Ranger has other scum in their sights. My argument was that Plotinus went through this effort to impress Ranger and get her on their side. Getting townies on their side and "clicking" with them is imperative for scum players to do and key to their survival. It doesn't make sense to do that pointless busywork as town as Plotinus could have much more effectively used that time to just discuss their reads with Ranger.

Post 476: talah and KTthecreeper were popular scumreads at the time. Wisdom was a popular townread. I'm not convinced by the ranger point because I remember ranger responding to 166 at some point saying that a lot of what Plotinus said was reasonably accurate and I've seen a lot of people give out townreads early on as town for people that come to the same conclusions as them. Expedience is a wildcard since the last mention before that post is a townread and the next mention after it is a vote. You could make a case that the reads list is opportunistic to an extent, but what you're accusing it of being is not what I see it as.

None of Plotinus's scumreads are dangerous or against-the-grain or give me any new insights into any other player. They are all safe and cautious. Their scumreads in general just consist of players that have been under pressure, or in some way against them, or players that aren't particularly good at defending themselves. I plan to go over this a bit more in-depth actually but that'll have to wait until later.

Even if you think the readslist is scummy for different reasons than the ones I've specified, you should still join me here. A lot of the time, players make cases and other people find their own reasons why the target is scummy and that's fine. You don't have to agree with every specific point I raised in a narrow sense in my case to see independently on your own that Scatterplot is mafia here.

Post 236: This isn't scummy at all. 1v1 wallfests are fucking awful to read and do absolutely nothing to forward the game, so Ether specifically calling for a 1v1 wallfest to end is reasonable as town.

It doesn't matter that

you

find 1v1 wallfests awful to read. Interacting with another player can be useful in reading them. Ether just being happy that Wisdom shut it down fits more with her not wanting to be in the spotlight. She could have a lot of things that are really pro-town. Engage Wisdom. Engage RadiantCowbells. Even if she didn't want a straight-up 1v1. The hands-off approach is something that helps the scum wincon a whole lot more than town and her basically saying "thank you Wisdom" when he shut it down rather than probing further is very concerning.

[Ankamius]

The problem with your first point is that just discussing reads with her like you're suggesting is a safer option than what she actually did, and is far likely to result in her making a tactical mistake and tipping Ranger off that the townread miiiiiight have been given out too early. It's early enough in the game that reads can change on a dime for weak reasoning.

I'm not willing to vote based on the reads point because a lot of people's reads this game are pretty bad/opportunistic right now FMPOV and not all of them can be scum, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

You're underestimating just how much apathy 1v1 wallfests create. As someone who has taken part in a lot of these, my experience states that virtually nobody likes or wants to engage them.

[OceanWind]

Ank - listen, since you are most probably town, I'll go over Ether's posts and explain why they don't make any sense and I'd like your opinion on them.

Ctrl+F "-Ether" and you can scroll through all of those posts. The sum total of her scumhunting involves:

a) An early townread on PhantomCobalt which she takes back after Expedience points out that her reasoning is invalid.
b) Post 230 - A hedgy post on the Talah wagon which she takes no position on. (If you won't vote them for the readslist, you should vote them for this.)
c) She thought she was scumreading Sakura Hana a few hours ago and is townreading her now. When Sakura questions on it, she stumbles all over it and can't give a valid answer.
d) Post 307 - Antihero asks her for her reads and she posts a passable list. What's concerning is not the readslist itself but how little she's done to refine those reads, most of which aren't very developed.
e) Says she's five pages behind. That was this afternoon. Still hedges on Talah, and agrees with Plotinus that Firebringer is town.

In general, she's very, very passive. She makes no effort to push her reads or

develop

reads. There's no thread of scumhunting that I can follow. It's just a whole mass of "leave it up to Plotinus and add in a couple of points here and there with random reads she has no explanation for."

She just has no

presense

in the game. She hasn't done anything to impact it one way or another.

[Wisdom]

Ocean, Scatterplot is town.

VOTE: expedience[/]

[Wisdom]

VOTE: expedience

[pieguyn]

the light

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of

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stardust