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[xRECKONERx]

also i really hate the bitching & moaning about Wild format

yes it will be more unbalanced

yes there will probably be a handful of "broken" decks that dominate the format

no it won't be pointless

MTG has eternal formats that are admittedly less played than Standard but they're still played competitively

the only issue is right now, Standard is the only format for Worlds, so it's the only real competitive format
I feel like we'll see both Standard & Wild format championships after a few more sets rotate out and Wild is a bit more distinguished from Standard, probably in 2018? maybe even 2017 after BRM/LOE/TGT phase out and we have a full Standard cycle of nothing but sets designed with the Standard/Wild split i mind

[BROseidon]

I think Face Shaman loses Crackle from GvG, and that's all they care about? So that's 28 cards the deck gets to keep. So Face Shaman is losing one burn card, and all of Face Shaman's opponents are losing Annoy-o-tron, Sludge Belcher, and Antique Healbot.

Also Leper Gnome, come to think about it.

Neither of which are really ~that~ important.

[xRECKONERx]

meanwhile everything else loses healbot

l o l

[GreyICE]

I think the rotation out of context of the complete rebalance of Classic cards is pointless to speculate with.

Like shaving two mana off Guardian of Kings would change a hell of a lot about Paladin and the meta.

[Sudo_Nym]

I'm wondering what the rebalance of Classic cards will do to the Wild format, though. The conceit of dividing them was to have a format that wasn't affected by rotation so people who wanted to play with all the cards could do so. But if Savage Roar gets rebalanced in Classic to avoid breaking Standard, that's going to affect the Wild meta, too.

[xRECKONERx]

we'll have to accept that for the time being, Wild is going to be the dumb format that isn't balanced because Blizzard is gonna balance specifically for Standard

honestly I think I'll end up playing Wild quite a bit, probably even w/ Standard, but I expect Standard to be more popular overall

gonna try to hit legend this month before the new queues launch

[xRECKONERx]

also i fully expect Wild bans to end up happening as cards cycle out of Standard

we'll probably have broken shit in Standard that is counterbalanced by other cards in Standard, then when it cycles out, it'll get hit with the nerfbat or a ban

[xRECKONERx]

people wanting reprints of old cards in new Standard are missing the point entirely, jesus

[DeathNote]

MTG only does that cause the game is so deep at this point. Sure maybe 15 years down the road some reprints will happen but not any time soon.

[BROseidon]

~Dragonstorm~

[xRECKONERx]

well yeah

plus I think Magic's eternal format is so prohibitive due to land access -- that is, the mana base in modern/legacy is what empowers the decks that exist. with no mana base problems like that in Wild, I think we'll just wind up seeing a "Choose Your Own Adventure" style deckbuilding where you just pick the best X drop in each slot and throw together to top Y class spells

[Sudo_Nym]

Another problem I'm thinking about is that most decks are made up of a majority of Basic/Classic cards anyway- Druid for example, generally starts with 2x Innervate, 2x Wild Growth, 2x Wrath, 2x Swipe, 2x Druid of the Claw, 2x Ancient of Lore, 2x Savage Roar, 2x Force of Nature. That's 16 cards in a 30 card deck from just the Basic/Classic cards, which suggests that rotation is changing up the flex cards, maybe, but they're not changing the essential core of the Druid deck.

[Shinobi]

Classic cards have to be banned eventually - if not the entire base set, then at least the most meta defining cards.
Standard can only stagnate for so long.

[Venmar]

Have they confirmed that the extra 9 deck slots will only be for "Wild" decks and the other for "Standard"? Because if that's the case they really didn't do much and there's no reason why they shouldn't add an extra 9 for Adventures as well.

[GreyICE]

I'm wondering what the rebalance of Classic cards will do to the Wild format, though. The conceit of dividing them was to have a format that wasn't affected by rotation so people who wanted to play with all the cards could do so. But if Savage Roar gets rebalanced in Classic to avoid breaking Standard, that's going to affect the Wild meta, too.

The wild format is pretty broken at the moment.

My speculation (pure speculation) is that the next set broke certain GVG/Naxx cards in half, and thus they were faced with a choice of alter their design, or finally phase out some of the old bullshit. Plus GvG represents some of the most egregious design flaws in the game. ESportal is an ongoing joke for how it sometimes enables turn 3 Cairn and sometimes drops a ship's cannon or something, there's a complex table of "when to kill the shredder" based on the horrible outcomes that might result (Mana Wraith, Doomsayer, Cho, any Taunt, etc.), it added Dr. Random... the set was a giant mess. They turned the RNG up to 11, it wasn't really enjoyable. They dialed it down to a more reasonable 5-6 and made the discover mechanic, most people loved it.

I can't help but think they'll touch up some cards for the rebalance that really need it. Druids need to lose easy access to combo, the combo is making Druid stupidly good no matter what flavor of deck you run. Mages could probably do to lose Ice Lance, otherwise Freeze Mage is the eternal deck (like 20+ cards are just classic/class cards). I would not be surprised to see Darkbomb shift into the base cards, it's badly needed and they can't just reprint Darkbomb-like cards every few sets because Warlock needs one. I'm thinking Hunter needs a lot of love, and I'm fairly certain they're not going to get out of this without just poking Shaman to see what they can do (maybe just make BGH hit 8, not 7?)

[xRECKONERx]

Make Savage Roar 4 mana, make FON 7 mana, you fix Druid

[Sudo_Nym]

Maybe they should go to a Magic style system, where instead of having an eternal basic/classic set as a base, you have yearly updates to which cards from the basic/classic sets are legal- sometimes you take out cards and replace them with reprints from the rotated out sets.

I do like the idea of rotation on a whole, though, since it keeps the game from stagnating and opens up design space- adding new cards without removing old cards will require power creep for the new cards to see play, at a certain point. I don't know how well the currently planned implementation will actually work, but I'll be cautiously optimistic until we actually see what the rebalancing will entail.

[Venmar]

Make Savage Roar 4 mana, make FON 7 mana, you fix Druid

Good job you killed the combo, you can't even cast it on turn 10 now without innervate.

Killing the combo is not the way imo. It's one of the only reasons Druid is good honestly.

[BROseidon]

The combo needs to completely die for druids to get internal diversity tbh.

[BROseidon]

And you can still Thaurissan it.

[Sudo_Nym]

Thaurissan is BRM, though, so that'll rotate out. I don't know if the Combo is broken in the absolute, but it is by far Druid's best wincon.

[GreyICE]

Make Savage Roar 4 mana, make FON 7 mana, you fix Druid

Good job you killed the combo, you can't even cast it on turn 10 now without innervate.

Killing the combo is not the way imo. It's one of the only reasons Druid is good honestly.

You mean one of the only reasons Druid is good is a very specific 2 card combo that relies on drawing both pieces then waiting until you hit 9 mana to go off? First, Druid has actually gotten some good cards recently. Second, if that's true, that's a power limited on the entire class. It has to be removed.

My proposal is very simple, stick to the "soul" of savage roar.

"3 - All things you control get +2/+0 this turn, and must attack enemy minions if able"

There we go, it's now a buff, but it's a buff that makes you want to brawl. Combo is still possible on an empty board, but you have to play "fair", which is the actual Soul of the Druid (fair, powerful cards)

[BROseidon]

Thaurissan is BRM, though, so that'll rotate out. I don't know if the Combo is broken in the absolute, but it is by far Druid's best wincon.

It completely limits the druid design space because you always have to account for Druid's ability to burst from 14 with no board from two cards.

At least Shaman and Mage have to (generally) commit more cards or more time to hit that level of burst/stupid.

[Venmar]

And you can still Thaurissan it.

There's a problem if Thaurissan is the one card making certain archetypes viable. It's pretty bland design.

PEdit: Druid is a good class, I don't deny it, it has one of the best curves and midgames of any class in the game. But the FoN combo is the way a Druid closes out games, it's their main win condition. Most non-Midrange Druids still have the combo because its druids best win con. Your nerf will probably kill any reason to use Savage Roar; limiting your targets to minions is a bigger nerf than you might think. Making cards "Fair" doesn't work when you got so many OP staple cards to begin with that making a card fair still dumps it in favour of better cards.

[Kagami]

Make Savage Roar 4 mana, make FON 7 mana, you fix Druid

Good job you killed the combo, you can't even cast it on turn 10 now without innervate.

Killing the combo is not the way imo. It's one of the only reasons Druid is good honestly.

Druid could be redefined easily enough. They already have strong tools for token strategy, and the beast tribal scheme could be fleshed out in the new expansion.

Combo really does have to die. The requirement that the enemy's board be completely clear all the time if you don't kill them by turn 9/7 is not fun to play against.