Open 32 - Pick Your Poison Mafia (Game Over!), before 470

[Thin_Man]

Why wouldn't you put much bias behind that?

Xyzzy is worthy of a bandwagon, I agree. I'll likely join it shortly.

[Thin_Man]

A simple plurality will lynch at that point.

Jdodge hammering had little effect on the outcome if we were near deadline...


I'd be surprised if xyzzy got replaced, he is active on the site. His prerogative, though.

oh. Well, ok then, that solves that moral conundrum.

[Thin_Man]

vote jdodge

[Patrick]

I think Jack/White is likely town, because Jack's play is what I've seen from him as town usually, and the way he broke down mneme looks like the way he methodically caught a scum in a recent game I was with him (porly ritten flayver maffier). He was also one of the early pressurers of mneme, when other bandwagons were available. Thin Man also gets some town points for being early and persistent on mneme, though the way he plays makes it harder for me to tell if that suspicion was genuine.

Satael looks like a good possibility to me. I don't think she ever gave an opinion on mneme until her last post where she appeared on the mneme wagon, and it just looked like she wanted to quickly make sure she was on the mneme lynch that was obviously going to happen at that stage. (And I don't think her vote was required as extra incentive for mneme to claim). Looking back at mneme's posts, he seems to have alot of wishy washy stances on dylan, in that he left plenty of openings to vote him later but always went after other players first (Thin Man, Rishi, Shanba and me is what I remember). Plus I was never wild about dylan's play to begin with. Shanba also brings up a reasonable point in his last post about mneme seeming to show a double standard between Shanba being self conscious and dylan being self conscious.

JDodge's hammer of mneme shares a characteristic with Satael's vote on mneme, the fact that he never expressed any previous opinion of mneme but was willing to vote him. JDodge hasn't done much in this game either, but I think I'm more suspicious of Satael at the moment.

I've not played with xyzzy before, but he seems utterely useless in this game. Can we have some good contribution?

Vote: Satael

FoS: JDodge, xyyzy

[Setael]

Bold is me.

Satael looks like a good possibility to me. I don't think she ever gave an opinion on mneme until her last post where she appeared on the mneme wagon

I voted mneme because of his reaction to Shanba's explanation of the lie. The posts Shanba was making sounded very Town, and mneme's reaction sounded very scum. Up to that post, the case on him seemed weak. I was focusing on Shanba who I was pretty sure was scum. Though it's possible Shanba is scum, and he was just very clever in admitting and explaining his lie I think it's much more likely that he's Town and my initial assessment of him was wrong.

and it just looked like she wanted to quickly make sure she was on the mneme lynch that was obviously going to happen at that stage. (And I don't think her vote was required as extra incentive for mneme to claim).

That is your opinion. I disagree. In spite of the fact that he was likely going to be lynched, mneme was making no effort to defend himself or be active in the game at all. I was hoping my vote would bring him out and get him to claim or at least make some kind of content post.

Looking back at mneme's posts, he seems to have alot of wishy washy stances on dylan, in that he left plenty of openings to vote him later but always went after other players first (Thin Man, Rishi, Shanba and me is what I remember). Plus I was never wild about dylan's play to begin with.

Can you point out this wishy washyness? I don't recall it from my initial read. The only concrete reason anyone had to suspect dylan was that he was hesitant to put SSF at -1. Do you have other reasons for suspecting him?

Shanba also brings up a reasonable point in his last post about mneme seeming to show a double standard between Shanba being self conscious and dylan being self conscious.

I disagree that this is a reasonable point. mneme reacted virtually the same to the supposed "self-awareness" of both Shanba and dylan. The fact that dylan's was brought up by someone else first, and mneme

then

called me out on it doesn't make it a double standard.

[White]

Xyzzy is worthy of a bandwagon, I agree. I'll likely join it shortly.

vote jdodge

Um...?

[Patrick]

Satael, your reasoning for voting mneme isn't actually bad. I still think it could have made a convenient bus for you.

That is your opinion. I disagree. In spite of the fact that he was likely going to be lynched, mneme was making no effort to defend himself or be active in the game at all. I was hoping my vote would bring him out and get him to claim or at least make some kind of content post.

I had voted him, putting him at lynch-1, and unvoted for safety purposes, and asked for a claim. I think he would have claimed regardless of your vote.

I disagree that this is a reasonable point. mneme reacted virtually the same to the supposed "self-awareness" of both Shanba and dylan. The fact that dylan's was brought up by someone else first, and mneme then called me out on it doesn't make it a double standard.

I don't think he reacted the same. When I brought it up against dylan, mneme just said, "It's interesting" and never really bothered with it again. He used it as a point against Shanba and it was part of his reasoning for his dubious late vote on Shanba.

@White, if you read the surrounding posts, it's really not that confusing.

[White]

Ack sorry, I know. I posted that and then realized how obvious it was. Sorry.

[Rishi]

Well, sorry I haven't gotten a chance to post in Day 3 yet. I really think we need to hear from xyzzy. He's a top suspect and the fact that he is so rampantly lurking has got to mean something. I am going to assume that Thesp has prodded him. But I don't feel right about lynching someone who hasn't had a chance to post.

I remember reading somewhere (and I doubt I can track it down at this point), either on the wiki or on one of the message boards that the first person to congratulate the doctor either is the doctor or is scum. So Guardian's post did raise my eyebrows. Guardian is also slightly less talkative in this game than in others. When he's town, he keeps insisting he is town. In this game, he's not really doing that. I don't think it's scummy enough for a vote, but, as I said, it raised my eyebrows.

[Patrick]

Sorry I missed this bit last night because it wasn't bolded.

Can you point out this wishy washyness? I don't recall it from my initial read. The only concrete reason anyone had to suspect dylan was that he was hesitant to put SSF at -1. Do you have other reasons for suspecting him?

Mneme's stance on dylan is usually kind of expressing suspicion on dylan, whilst going after or voting other people. If dylan was going to be lynched, mneme had left himself openings to be on that lynchwagon. Although, on reading his posts, he left quite alot of options open in all directions anyway.

[White]

Rishi, that thing about congratulating the doc sounds like a nice can of WIFOM or an illusory correlation.

[Patrick]

Finding Mafia

[Patrick]

Although I think jeep tells are mostly outdated, and there's better stuff to work with today.

[Guardian]

I haven't had the chance to re-read Setael, which I intend to do, as many seem to think the case has merit.

However, I want to respond to two things Rishi brought up:

• My playstyle in this game is
  intentionally
  different from my typical style. This is to both avoid people being able to metagame me, and to see if this is more effective. Your read "Guardian town didn't play like this" is accurate -- but unless you can demonstrate that "Guardian scum
  does
  play like this" your argument is a null tell.
  
  
• I've read jeep's thing too... I congratulated whomever despite having read it; our doc/rber/whatever did a good job, and I thought it would be nice to congratulate them...

[Rishi]

[*]My playstyle in this game is

intentionally

different from my typical style. This is to both avoid people being able to metagame me, and to see if this is more effective. Your read "Guardian town didn't play like this" is accurate -- but unless you can demonstrate that "Guardian scum

does

play like this" your argument is a null tell.

Actually, this is the response that I was hoping that you would give. You've dropped off my radar for now.

[Shanba]

I really want a Setael lynch. Mneme's behaviour towards him and his play d1 combined makes me think he's very likely scum. Nothing else I've seen is as convincing as the case on him though Setael's play is better by leaps and bounds).

[Setael]

Ok so your reasons for wanting me lynched are
1) Mneme's behavior toward dylan; and
2) dylan's play d1

1 - Patrick corrected his own argument when he pointed out that mneme was pretty wishy washy on everyone and left himself outs on practically every player. Saying dylan is the only one he treated that way is grossly exaggerating. The only other thing you brought up on this was posting what mneme said about your “self awareness” vs. dylan’s. As I said, “I disagree that this is a reasonable point. mneme reacted virtually the same to the supposed "self-awareness" of both Shanba and dylan. The fact that dylan's was brought up by someone else first, and mneme

then

called me out on it doesn't make it a double standard.”

2 – Why don’t you give me a pbpa on what dylan did that you find so scummy? I addressed the arguments against him in my initial post – none of it was very strong and I think you’re just remembering it differently than it really was. The main points against him were metagaming which isn’t always reliable, and the fact he was hesitant to put someone we now know was a Townie to -1. I don’t think anyone ever had good reason to be suspicious of dylan so if you really think his play was so bad d1, please give examples.

I'm doing a re-read and then I'll post a scum list. I still think Shanba and schizmatized's moves from the xyzzy wagon to SSF were scummy. Shanba has given a decent reason for his move and his admittance and explanation of his lie seemed Town to me, so I'm less convinced he is scum. I was wondering if Guardian would ever address my case on schizmatized but he never did. I guess that's understandable but I still have lingering schiz suspicions that have carried over to Guardian. He hasn't done much lately. I'll look at him closer and then post my thoughts.

[Guardian]

Shanba has given a decent reason for his move and his admittance and explanation of his lie seemed Town to me

Why?

I was wondering if Guardian would ever address my case on schizmatized but he never did.

Why would you expect me to do this without asking me to do it?

I still have lingering schiz suspicions that have carried over to Guardian. He hasn't done much lately.

What do you mean by this? Why do you think this?

[Setael]

Post 93: Ms. Piggy votes SSF, gives vague "I don't like your posts" reason
Post 96: JDodge votes SSF, calls him out for being wary of suspicion
Post 97: Shanba votes SSF, sole reason "This wagon needs more support."
Post 117: Rishi votes SSF, says he seems unnecessarily worried about possible deadlines
Post 124: Ms. Piggy unvotes SSF says she "would rather vote Xyzzy than anyone else right now."
Post 125: Mneme votes SSF, sole reason is to avoid lynching Xyzzy
Post 127: schismatized votes SSF, sole reason is he doesn't think anyone is buying the deadline excuse
Post 143: Dylan's hesitation that everyone jumped on
Post 144: schismatized effectively pressures Dylan into voting
Post 145: Dylan votes
Post 150: Ms. Piggy hammers without giving any reason. In fact, not long before she'd said she'd much rather vote Xyzzy, and then she more recently was suspecting schismatized and Rishi.

I am surprised that once SSF came up town, no one bothered to look back at xyzzx, considering so many people seemed to REALLY think he was scum before the swing. I think there's a good chance at least one mafia was influential in pulling the vote off xyzzx, and then in spite of all these reasons they cited for thinking xyzzx was scum, never taking the discussion back to him.

Second prize goes to schismatized for looking almost as scummy as Shanba

I think that wagon got a lot of info from xyzzy. If someone had to die right now, it would be him. Its much to early for that so i am going to unvote vote: Mert.

Much too early for xyzzy to die, and yet only a few posts later it's not too early for SSF to die? Also, schismatized never gave us this "a lot of info" that was gleaned from xyzzy's wagon, and hasn't bothered to ever give it actually, or bring suspicion back to xyzzy. Super scummy imo.

What I am saying is that I found schismatized's move from xyzzy to SSF very scummy. He never addressed this post because he was replaced right after I replaced in. As I said, it's understandable that you didn't address it since you can't explain why he did what he did as you are not him. However, I still think it was scummy so I have lingering suspicions. Does that clear it up?

Shanba has given a decent reason for his move and his admittance and explanation of his lie seemed Town to me

Why?

Why what? Why did Shanba move his vote? Or why did Shanba give a decent reason? or Why did his explanation seem Town? Please be a little more clear.

[Guardian]

Shanba has given a decent reason for his move and his admittance and explanation of his lie seemed Town to me

Why?

Why does his admittance seem Town?

I still have lingering schiz suspicions that have carried over to Guardian.

He hasn't done much lately

.

What do you mean by this? Why do you think this?

[White]

Wow guys, I am so lost and confused in this game. I honestly can't keep up. I'm sorry, i'm going to have to reread. The quantity of replacements makes this much harder to keep up with.

[Rishi]

Wow guys, I am so lost and confused in this game. I honestly can't keep up. I'm sorry, i'm going to have to reread. The quantity of replacements makes this much harder to keep up with.

It's pretty bad. Even the mod had to be replaced!

But, we still have five of the original players left (even if some are lurking) and the group of players seems pretty stable for now.

I really want a Setael lynch. Mneme's behaviour towards him and his play d1 combined makes me think he's very likely scum. Nothing else I've seen is as convincing as the case on him though Setael's play is better by leaps and bounds).

Interesting. Also Setael = she.

[White]

Wow...page four is SSF's time to die. I can't really blame anyone on that wagon for pushing it....he practically begged for it. Post 95 by him kinda solidifies the case against him.

Town should never be afraid of suspicion. If you have nothing to hide, you need not fear anything.

Yeah, because mislynches

never

happen. Ever.

Bullshit. Mislynches happen because townspeople are stupid enough to try and do nothing but keep suspicion off of themselves.

Whoa, if you read this in context, let me try and translate here.

"If you're town, dont' worry about drawing heat! KILL SCUM!!"
"But I don't want to be mislynched..."
"Mislynches [like yours] happen because people do what you're doing."

I had to add that tiny addition because that's how it reads to me. Like Jdodge knows the lynch is a mislynch and is justifying it by saying it's because people set themselves up like SSF was doing. Does anyone else see this?

Schiz in 110 is off. Way off.

The xyz bandwagon is fun, especially given his utter lack of a credible defense.

I know, he's dead scum. Just noticing how he says he likes the xyzzy bandwagon, gives a statement in it's favor and changes wagons for a weak reason. I note this for the interaction between scum and lurker.

Yeah Rishi, I know. The length (RL days) of this game kinda throws you for a loop too. But i'm working on it. I think my first read was lacking severely because i'm seeing some things in this read through that I didn't pick up on before.

Currently i'm quite suspicious of both of the lurkers. Jdodge and Xyzzy.

unvote

whomever i'm currently voting.

[Setael]

Shanba has given a decent reason for his move and his admittance and explanation of his lie seemed Town to me

Why does his admittance seem Town?

Here's where I already answered that in Post 331:

I could be wrong but it doesn't feel like scum that's covering his tracks - it sounds more like a Townie that recognized a mistake that scum might potentially jump on to make him look bad, so he pointed it out before they could.

[White]

For further explanation, dylan's play looks a lot like "newbie playing scum doesn't want to mess up and become suspect".

This is a very accurate analysis.

Vote: dylan

Wt-

Yeah no kidding, pushing a wagon that's got steam. Adding nothing of your own. Simply stating "I agree" and leaving it at that as a valid response to put on the 3rd or 4th vote on day 2 is utterly idiotic!

Thin, you replaced in and 14 minutes later you had a vote for mneme, were you just following the game? Did you read the page you replaced in and went, "Ah what the hell" or what? Please justify your vote.

You know, i've seen this twice so far. Someone is deliberately lurking, then when asked about it they say it flat out, "I'm lurking" and somehow that clears them? Nooooooooo!! No, it doesn't, shouldn't, couldn't, won't. Consider:
Not scum hunting = anti town
lurking = not scum hunting
lurking = anti town
Jdodge = lurking
Jdodge = anti town.

Flawless logic? Not by any means, but stating that you're lurking doesn't clear you. Jdodge, start participating. If you're town, help us win.

I'm a little suspicious of JDodge

Hello kettle, you're black.

Gotta run, class in 7.