Newbie 1691 - Game Over

[Ircher]

It was genuine; I forgot Shannon was on the wagon & switched votes.

And, in your blinding rage that obligated you to immediately call me an idiot - you had no need to, y'know, clarify you were wrong once it was pointed out that it wasn't a hammer?

Nah man, that looks super fake - or weirdly rude.
I'm taking it as fake.
Why do you think it should read as honest? You don't think that looks weird on your part?

Cuz I always read in chronological order & my responses are based off that.

[Ircher]

Skimming Ryu/Egg's ISO, I see the following things:

Ryu

- 1. Poor communicator 2. Did a semi-decent job; equates to a neutral read I guess....

Eggman

3. His opening post 224 is self-contadictory. Has Aero and Mhsmith on the same tier as himself for what basically equates to gut reads. (As his Aero read is based on Aero being an IV). If Egg flips scum, that would suggest an assoc. with Aero. Says KAAG puts in a lot of effort, yet leantown?! Compared to a gutread, I would think that a read based on effort is >= a gutread. The UTL read is also basically gut (same basis as IC being town), so his reads are not coinciding with what he says in that post. He also leaves SIW out. Prob. a newbie mistake/oversight, but still... SIW was one of the more active ones.
2. Askes about fakeclaiming cop - Newbie trying to breadcrumb cop role.... Unlikely, as he later as he later claims VT
3. Claims VT when things begin looking bad - Antitown, but not neccessarily scum motivated
4. Seems to be acting newbie -- Generally not a tell EXCEPT when you ask how many VTs there are despite it being stated in post 0 or 1 of all newbie games.
5. Jumps on Radja for ambiguous terminology- Shame on KAAG for seeing that as a scumslip in the first place, but perhaps opportunistic in nature? I'm not sure....

Overall, pretty confident scumread here.

My "case" on Ryu/Egg - Somewhat ambiguous (may be bad town) but compared to everything else, it's pretty strong & would be if this wasn't a newbie.

[Thor665]

I find the notion that I should applaud doing what I consider to be the right thing for the wrong reason dubious.

I'm not claiming that - what I'm questioning is why I need to 'burn in fire' for doing the, as you say, RIGHT THING.

I mean, a response of "oh man, I still wanted to talk to Egg about X" would have been fine.
Or saying, "darnit Thor, too soon!" - okay, that makes sense.
Or even a "Hey, Thor, what were your reasons beyond lulz, or was that really it?" also would have made sense.

Instead you just empty attacked me - and your answer is because I didn't do..."things"
Please ignore that you can';t think of "things" but, darnit, "things" existed, and better wagons too, if only we had done the "things" that someone else, like Thor, should have done, ergo, Thor should be attacked - even though no one can say what the "things" are.

...nah, I don't really see that.
Like, at all.
Doesn't make sense as a standpoint to me, consequently I kind of feel like you're not following a true narrative, but are just attacking me because "hey, lulz vote - scummy" sells well, and also because you were quite content with the Egg lynch not affecting that call because you already knew what Egg would flip.

No?

Hammering early simply commits us to a course of action earlier - we aren't compensated for our reduced options in any meaningful sense. We can leave someone alive and use all of our time until the deadline with no consequences.

We are compensated by avoiding game drag.
20 pages in.
Lots of people feeling listless.
No new info.
People sitting on Egg votes not seeing anything else to do.
All of that is pro scum and anti-town.

Further, you haven't pointed out any lack of internal logic from me whatsoever.

That's factually incorrect. You can disagree with my conclusion, but I assuredly did point out the lack of logic I saw.

Why do you want me lynched?

Because I think you're scum.

What are your reads and why?

You scum, for reasons stated.
Ircher, scum, for reasons stated.
Egg town, for reasons stated.
Shannon, slight town, for reasons stated.

Why have you chosen to take such narrow readings of questions asked of you?

I do not believe I have, and if I have I'm unaware of doing so, thus cannot answer the reasons. Bad upbringing maybe?

Specifically, why can't you provide a constructive case for Egg's townness, if you believe one exists?

I have provided it - it's certainly as strong as any I've seen to explain his scumminess - heck, you don't even have a case for his scumminess and agree he's not the best lynch so...like, why are you shocked that I share that thought process?

Why is a fake hammer more productive for gauging reactions than doing what you advocate for in your wiki article?

I don't think it is more or less productive, but it was more useful at that particular moment since I was just replacing in and there was already double hammer intent. Kind of hard to add pressure to Egg at that stage via a third hammer intent.

[Ircher]

I just quoted a case on Scum Egg yet you ignore it........
VOTE: Shannon

Thor's slight townread and your entrances make me suspicious of both of you.

[Thor665]

Cuz I always read in chronological order & my responses are based off that.

Oh, absolutely you read in chronological order - I'm not suggesting anything else.
I'm just wondering why you didn't react to the realization that it wasn't a hammer - especially when you'd been so violent when you thought it was, weren't you relieved? Weren't you at least thinking I was less of an idiot? Anything?

Apparently not, since you didn't add anything else.

But, after the level of initial response, the lack of followup reads weird - and that's what makes it look fake to me.
Liek if I just punched someone for sleeping with my girlfriend, and then found out he hadn't I'd, y'know...react to that new info. If I didn't it would be weird.
Like what you did.

My "case" on Ryu/Egg - Somewhat ambiguous (may be bad town) but compared to everything else, it's pretty strong & would be if this wasn't a newbie.

Your case is literally full of you admitting that the issues aren't really scummy - even right now, you're admitting it might be a good case if not on a Newbie, but then, y'know, noting it's on a Newbie.
It's really unimpressive to me.

What's your read on Yawning Angel?
Wanna lynch him instead?

[Thor665]

I just quoted a case on Scum Egg yet you ignore it........
VOTE: Shannon

Thor's slight townread and your entrances make me suspicious of both of you.

That makes no sense on multiple levels.

[Ircher]

Cuz I always read in chronological order & my responses are based off that.

Oh, absolutely you read in chronological order - I'm not suggesting anything else.
I'm just wondering why you didn't react to the realization that it wasn't a hammer - especially when you'd been so violent when you thought it was, weren't you relieved? Weren't you at least thinking I was less of an idiot? Anything?

Apparently not, since you didn't add anything else.

But, after the level of initial response, the lack of followup reads weird - and that's what makes it look fake to me.
Liek if I just punched someone for sleeping with my girlfriend, and then found out he hadn't I'd, y'know...react to that new info. If I didn't it would be weird.
Like what you did.

My "case" on Ryu/Egg - Somewhat ambiguous (may be bad town) but compared to everything else, it's pretty strong & would be if this wasn't a newbie.

Your case is literally full of you admitting that the issues aren't really scummy - even right now, you're admitting it might be a good case if not on a Newbie, but then, y'know, noting it's on a Newbie.
It's really unimpressive to me.

What's your read on Yawning Angel?
Wanna lynch him instead?

Yawn and Summer right now are prob. newbtown. I'm pretty sure the YA case is worse than my Egg case

[Ircher]

Chief suspects right now are Shannon and Thor.

The Thor case - Fake lolhammer, suspicious predecessor (which I summed up earlier), Association with Shannon, and trying to find scum motivation in a reaction to a fake lolhammer.

Shannon - Association with Thor, misrepping me in order to try to get me mislynched

[SummerInWonderland]

@Ircher I am pretty sure my UTL/Radja case is better than both of those
Shannon and thor are not on scum radar right now. A lot about shannons post I dont like- especially her case against me but that just seems extremely mislead.

[Ircher]

Eh, the UTL case is decent, but I also see a lot of conf. bias in the case which significantly weakens it. I'd rather anakyze that nextt day phase.

[Jackal711]

VOTE COUNT 1.10

SummerInWonderland (1) - shannon
YawningAngel (1) - Thor665
mhsmith0 (0) -
shannon (1) - Ircher
Eggman (2) - YawningAngel, Radja
Ircher (0) -
KickAssAndGiggle (0) -
Radja (2) - SummerInWonderland, KickAssAndGiggle
Thor665 (1) - mhsmith0

Not Voting: Eggman

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is Friday, March 25th 2016 at 6:00 pm PDT or in (expired on 2016-03-25 18:00:00)

[YawningAngel]

Answering post 552 (Thor 665).

Doing good things for bad reasons isn't evidence for the proposition that you're town. Had you weighed the possibilities and decided that hammering Eggman was a good idea as no further productive outcomes were likely and that dragging the day out would just exhaust the town, that would have been fine. I might have objected (almost certainly would have, in fact), but at least there'd be a rationale behind it. Doing things without providing any stated rationale isn't particularly meaningful in general - if you won't justify your positions, people will either ignore you or policy lynch you for being unproductive. Had you actually hammered without a reason, I imagine this might well have happened. Assuming that you in fact

had

a motive, the only plausible one was that you were scum and wanted to end the day and give yourself some breathing space for some reason - maybe you'd written Eggman off as a lost cause, or maybe you felt that with time you could come up with a good reason for hammering him. I didn't know, but I couldn't think of a town motive for your actions and was quite hacked off at what I perceived as you not taking the game seriously (playing against your wincon, essentially), to the point that I overreacted a little.

I take your point about avoiding game drag - I didn't want to admit it and don't intend to replace, but I've found this a little wearing myself. However, given that we don't seem to have any sort of consensus, I think we need to play the day out. Props for digging us out of the rut we were in, I'll think over the last few pages and try to come up with some constructive input tomorrow afternoon.

[YawningAngel]

This isn't a quick reply so much as a quick question; I can see tags like "townie" and "mafiascum" below player names- have I somehow stumbled on insider info?

No, it just indicates your post count. Wrong thread, by the way. I think.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Um...I literally thought Eggman was hammered. I am an idiot. Yeah, there have been replaces, but that's no excuse. I am officially dumb!

Catching up now.

[SummerInWonderland]

Eh, the UTL case is decent, but I also see a lot of conf. bias in the case which significantly weakens it. I'd rather anakyze that nextt day phase.

ok so you think it is a good case... but is weakened by some mysterious conf. bias.
please direct me to this because apparently there is a lot of it that you see.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

OK, just two questions aimed at me, both by Thor:

So with 2 extra days you would have made a push on Radja?

I have tried pushing Radja!

Ircher said:

Fyi, I'm supporting only an Egg or an Aero lynch today.

mhsmith0 has said:

UTL/Radja: Stuff has bugged me here at times (duh). I owe the SIW/UTL fight another read focusing on UTL, but it so far has pinged my gut as a plausible town-town fight. Radja seems willing to actually push and maybe own the Egg wagon; I'm not sold on that one, but the fact that someone is actually willing to stick their neck out and actually own it makes me feel better that it's not just going to be our lazy default day one mislynch. I'm willing to entertain a case against him, but this slot is slowly moving its way up my list.

Aeronaut said:

Here's my take on UTL; she's what I like to call "Town for Today".

YA:

I think Eggman, while arguably a weak lynch, is still our best shot. The case for Radja, while better examined tomorrow, is still more compelling than the case for SIW.

Eggman: inactive.
GreenNope: inactive. Shannon replaced: voted for my joint-strongest town-read due to argument with UTL (now Radja).

Only SIW is with me.

Please appreciate that days have passed with just SIW, mhsmith0 and myself contributing significantly. I'm not pushing and pushing a wagon that is being ignored forever: I'm not a masochist. With less choice tomorrow, it will be easier to push (assuming I live, but if I don't, hopefully town will at least consider my reads).

...

Why - what makes the case on him good when you appeared otherwise okay with just rolling over and lynching Eggman?

SIW has quoted my thoughts, but briefly:

1) Defended why her "tone" sounded different to other Newbie games, including admitting she got into a fight with a Newbie in them and wanted to do "better"
2) Then said "not tone, more style", as if she realised that defending a tone-difference isn't towny
3) Then got into a fight with a Newbie (YA) (see #1)
4) Then got into another fight with a Newbie (SIW) (see #1)
5) Then wants to lynch YA with fire...
6) ...three posts later, misreads, bizarrely, a SIW post and claimed she "scum-slipped" (laughable) and votes SIW
7) "Fakes" a temper tantrum because mhsmith0 suggested to mod that her V/LA time was too long, and replaced
8) Radja's read list just a parrot of the "widely held" positions, including Eggman/YA being bottom. I personally feel YA is town, due to certain "frustrated" responses to mhsmith0 that I read as genuine.

That's my case. It's not rock-solid, but I see no better case on anyone else.

...

I'll now find points to comment on other than questions that came my way.

[Ircher]

Eh, the UTL case is decent, but I also see a lot of conf. bias in the case which significantly weakens it. I'd rather anakyze that nextt day phase.

ok so you think it is a good case... but is weakened by some mysterious conf. bias.
please direct me to this because apparently there is a lot of it that you see.

This is something you learn through experience. Do you know what muscle memory is? It works the same way as muscle memory -- The more times you see stuff like that, the more likely you will be able to understand what's happening.

Anyway, conf. bias isn't one of those things you point out; you can tell by looking at how the players respond. In this case, UTL seemed overky focused on you and keen to point out the slightest errors you made. But, I have a good feeling that she truly thought you were scum and didn't realize she was tunneling you.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

YOU ARE AN IDIOT!!

I want a new IC who won't lolhammer people!

Would you like to fake any other emotions as long as I'm here?
Ircher is now also an acceptable lynch in my mind.

Why? That's no case. I've called people idiots before (not in Newbies myself...but it happens) and there's no emotion behind it. Choosing CAPS is just style, not AI.

You've seemed rather logical in most posts, I like it...but not this one. (Note: I don't think you're an idiot! But wrong here.)

Chief suspects right now are Shannon and Thor.

The Thor case - Fake lolhammer, suspicious predecessor (which I summed up earlier), Association with Shannon, and trying to find scum motivation in a reaction to a fake lolhammer.

Shannon - Association with Thor, misrepping me in order to try to get me mislynched

Ircher, I'd like to hear more on this case. Obviously shannon has replaced an utterly null slot. Can you expand that case with quotes, examples etc?

I had Aero @ unclear when he flaked. Early on I felt he was towny, but there was deterioration with his dismissal of points on UTL, and his strange vote on mhsmith0. So far, Thor hasn't helped or hurt my read: still unclear.

[Thor665]

I'm pretty sure the YA case is worse than my Egg case

It can't be - because I'm actually saying I think he's scum, so at least it's a case the person making it believes in.
Why is YA newb town (and not just town...?) in your opinion?

Eh, the UTL case is decent, but I also see a lot of conf. bias in the case which significantly weakens it. I'd rather anakyze that nextt day phase.

How many hours does it take you to analyze a case?
You apparently assessed mine on YA in a few minutes - which seems normal to me, so don't think I'm calling that strange, but apparently UTL is a lot more complicated?

Doing good things for bad reasons isn't evidence for the proposition that you're town.

I would agree.
But you saying that I did good things for bad reasons is hardly evidence for me being scum for the exact same reasons - and yet you spend about a paragraph after this arguing exactly that for, as far as I can tell, deciding I was scum who couldn't come up with a fake reason to hammer someone (who had two hammer intents on him - and people making "valid" cases of 'he's a lurker - derp!' on). Like...seriously, you're thinking I couldn't fake a case there if I had needed to after two minutes of consideration? Besides not making a lot of sense as a scum plan, it's kind of insulting. Can you clarify this at all? Like - we've established that you liked the vote,and your issue is now apparently 'lack of stating reasons that you might have agreed with' while ignoring that you decided to take 'for lulz' at face value as my reason given when discussing this with me.

Do you take everything I say at face value? (<--hopefully rhetorical)
On the presumption that the answer is 'no' then why do you expect me to take seriously that you took that particular vote reason at face value to the point of finding me objectionable without asking me for a real reason *or* assessing how you approved of the lynch?

Assuming that you in fact

had

a motive, the only plausible one was that you were scum and wanted to end the day and give yourself some breathing space for some reason

Yeah, I was really sweating under the pressure on me

Props for digging us out of the rut we were in, I'll think over the last few pages and try to come up with some constructive input tomorrow afternoon.

Want to lynch Ircher? He's kind of scummy and lying about his reactions too methinks, plus I'm freaked out with how he's figured out my scumpartner is Shannon due to the "connections" between us and how we've both called him scum.
I could lynch him really happily - could you?

7) "Fakes" a temper tantrum because mhsmith0 suggested to mod that her V/LA time was too long, and replaced

Considering that she did actually replace out and that you're putting "fakes" in quotes - your working theory is that she was scum and replaced out to try to help her team win?

Have you seen scum do this before?
Would you do it?

[Thor665]

Why? That's no case. I've called people idiots before (not in Newbies myself...but it happens) and there's no emotion behind it. Choosing CAPS is just style, not AI.

He admitted it as an emotional reaction already, so that defense is out the window.
The question now is if it was faked emotion or not - I think it's fake, do you think it looks real?

You've seemed rather logical in most posts, I like it...but not this one. (Note: I don't think you're an idiot! But wrong here.)

Good, I've fooled you.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Ahh, OK, post 544.

I'd say that I have no evidence either way. I have no particular reason to scum read Ircher, and "fake" would only make sense if he was scum, so right now, I'm Null on it.

Here are my current reads, from the entire thread as I see it (I use the "Ranger" brackets style...I know some moan about it but I like it myself):

{KAAG}
{SummerInWonderland, mhsmith0}
{YawningAngel}
{Ircher, shannon, Thor665, Eggman} -- NULL LINE
{Radja}

I won't pretend I didn't have Eggman lower in my last list, but that was before the "I'm VT, and helpless" post. It's more likely to come from town than scum, but by no means certain, not if scum are two first-timers.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Have you seen scum do this before?

Yes, Newbie 1675.

Would you do it?

No. No surrender as either side! I have a zero prod record! (though this is only 3 months and 5 games, so not that special)

[Ircher]

See, Egg ISN'T TRYING. YA IS.

See the difference? Same can be said for SIW.

[Ircher]

Why? That's no case. I've called people idiots before (not in Newbies myself...but it happens) and there's no emotion behind it. Choosing CAPS is just style, not AI.

He admitted it as an emotional reaction already, so that defense is out the window.
The question now is if it was faked emotion or not - I think it's fake, do you think it looks real?

You've seemed rather logical in most posts, I like it...but not this one. (Note: I don't think you're an idiot! But wrong here.)

Good, I've fooled you.

Let me ask you Thor: Who

wouldn't

be genuinely angry with

an IC

who decides to

lolhammer

(or fake it) a player despite another player

just

stating

not

to do so?

That

, fake or real, is

bad

IC play. And quite frankly, 75% of the playerlist thought it was genuine and found it attrocious.

[Ircher]

Also, caps is a bit of a style thing too -- I use them for emphasis when I'm too lazy to type the actual bbcode.