Mini 497 - Game Over

[curiouskarmadog]

active-aggressively=passive aggressively.

[joost]

I have to say that I'm glad to have CKD in this game at the moment. He's brought in a lot of new stuff to think about. I do have a few questions for you though:

-Tinvision- This guy is screaming newbie scum. Post 102-109 really stand out to me. Says the case against my predecessor was shaky then 1 post/vote (hour later) votes him. When he tries to explain it doesn’t make any since and looks as if he is back pedaling. Most of his posts revolve around him and not actually looking for scum. Isolating tin by himself I would say scum.

Would you hammer him now if you had the chance?

Destructor- think he is actively looking for scum. Asks questions and probes. Could be scum playing a good game. There is no real actions (votes) to judge him on except for his constant push on Tinvision (who I feel is scum as well). Never really jump on predecessor’s BW, which would have been an easy lynch. Getting a good vibe from him.

Do you think it's a good thing he didn't jump on the Duster wagon? And do you think it's a town tell not to do so?

Knuck/opposedforce – Knuck defended duster early in the BW with metagaming. Seemed to pressure those who were attacking duster. Then changes, saying that he doesn’t think Duster is scum, but his lynch would help the town provide information. UGH. A day later, he votes duster even though he thinks he is town (poor play). Then he thinks kabenon and joost are scummy for harping on duster when Knuck’s vote was on duster too. (scum play). His last post, he is defending himself against joost and ends with a deflect (poor play). All opposedforce has done is do a PbP and has jumped on the tinvision bandwagon. I am putting opposedforce in the sucm category for now basically for Knuck’s bad play.

Is poor play the same as scum play? And if not, is your suspicion based on that one scum play argument you mentioned?

Sephiroth- in the beginning I didn’t like seph’s play at all. Post 83 seemed like a backtrack/lie.
Later he says he is not “yet” suspicious of duster, which is a contradiction. Later he does a PbP and puts duster in his top 4 suspects..along with 2 lurkers and Kab who was attacking duster. So Seph felt like Kab was acting weird in his attack of duster (defending his vote), but is ok with a duster lynch. Seems like Seph, is trying to set up Kab, when duster comes up town in a lynch seph was for. Anyone else think that odd? Last post was 09/28, attacking destructor for “defending” duster. Has crap argument on why leaving duster alive is a bad idea…no to mention, he never had his vote on duster….SUSPICIOUS PLAY!!! Leaning scum.

Good catch on Sephiroth. I will have to reread him. What exactly is crap about the argument on lynching Duster (besides the fact that he never voted for Duster himself)?

This game is suffering from a lot of inactive players.

QFT

I would like to see a new updated suspect list from [Sephiroth]

QFT

[JDodge]

Prodding Nirp, Sephiroth and SilverPhoenix.

[curiouskarmadog]

-Tinvision- This guy is screaming newbie scum. Post 102-109 really stand out to me. Says the case against my predecessor was shaky then 1 post/vote (hour later) votes him. When he tries to explain it doesn’t make any since and looks as if he is back pedaling. Most of his posts revolve around him and not actually looking for scum. Isolating tin by himself I would say scum.

Would you hammer him now if you had the chance?

Honestly I don’t know. Would I hammer right now? No, I need to see what the reactions are to my PbP. Would I hammer later? Maybe? I need more information today before I would feel good associating my name with a lynch.

Destructor- think he is actively looking for scum. Asks questions and probes. Could be scum playing a good game. There is no real actions (votes) to judge him on except for his constant push on Tinvision (who I feel is scum as well). Never really jump on predecessor’s BW, which would have been an easy lynch. Getting a good vibe from him.

Do you think it's a good thing he didn't jump on the Duster wagon? And do you think it's a town tell not to do so?

Yeah, I think this town would have lynched duster quickly if it wasn’t for a couple people here. Do I think it is a town tell not to do what? Lynch duster quickly? It can go either way. If duster was lynched and then came up town, if scum wasn’t on the lynch, they got town creds. So to oppose a lynch that will probably happen anyway is a good call for scum. However, a true townie would want to slow down the Day 1 BW (that early) to get more information, which I think this town REALLY needs. To call out those who voted without reason…so, the fact that he wasn’t on the lynch really is a neutral read to me.

Knuck/opposedforce – Knuck defended duster early in the BW with metagaming. Seemed to pressure those who were attacking duster. Then changes, saying that he doesn’t think Duster is scum, but his lynch would help the town provide information. UGH. A day later, he votes duster even though he thinks he is town (poor play). Then he thinks kabenon and joost are scummy for harping on duster when Knuck’s vote was on duster too. (scum play). His last post, he is defending himself against joost and ends with a deflect (poor play). All opposedforce has done is do a PbP and has jumped on the tinvision bandwagon. I am putting opposedforce in the sucm category for now basically for Knuck’s bad play.

Is poor play the same as scum play? And if not, is your suspicion based on that one scum play argument you mentioned?

Hmm…lets take a metaphor trip. If it is super humid outside (poor play) you are not really wet (scum)or dry(town). If it raining (scum play) you most likely are wet. If you have many humid days in a row, mostly likely you are wet. What I mean to say is, poor play is bad play, but not really a scum tell by itself. But coupled with other scum plays only adds to my suspicion. Jesus, does that make sense?

Sephiroth- in the beginning I didn’t like seph’s play at all. Post 83 seemed like a backtrack/lie.
Later he says he is not “yet” suspicious of duster, which is a contradiction. Later he does a PbP and puts duster in his top 4 suspects..along with 2 lurkers and Kab who was attacking duster. So Seph felt like Kab was acting weird in his attack of duster (defending his vote), but is ok with a duster lynch. Seems like Seph, is trying to set up Kab, when duster comes up town in a lynch seph was for. Anyone else think that odd? Last post was 09/28, attacking destructor for “defending” duster. Has crap argument on why leaving duster alive is a bad idea…no to mention, he never had his vote on duster….SUSPICIOUS PLAY!!! Leaning scum.

Good catch on Sephiroth. I will have to reread him. What exactly is crap about the argument on lynching Duster (besides the fact that he never voted for Duster himself)?

going to answer this in a separate post….

[curiouskarmadog]

...dont have time at the moment....

[Sephiroth]

First of all, apologies for my absence. Now.

Sephiroth- in the beginning I didn’t like seph’s play at all. Post 83 seemed like a backtrack/lie.

This is clearly not a backtrack or lie, firstly because I do not go back on any of my opinions. Secondly, because I have consistently said that I find his posts to be suspect, but not that I necessarily find

him

scummy. I could point to several posts that I find scummy from each player, this does not mean I am suspicious of all of those people.

Later he says he is not “yet” suspicious of duster, which is a contradiction.

How so? An argument cannot just be a claim. Please warrant your statements. Show me how I contradicted myself.

Later he does a PbP and puts duster in his top 4 suspects..along with 2 lurkers and Kab who was attacking duster.

I did not put him in with my suspects because he was one of my suspects. I specifically said that he was in there because I wanted him lynched, and I explain why in the post. Please read.

So Seph felt like Kab was acting weird in his attack of duster (defending his vote), but is ok with a duster lynch.

Try reading the post. The reason I am suspicious of Kab is NOT because he is or was for a duster lynch. I am suspicious of him because of the way he repetitively changes his opinion. I outlined it in that post. Again, please read.

Seems like Seph, is trying to set up Kab, when duster comes up town in a lynch seph was for.

How is this a good point at all? Statistically, I expect that Duster will come up town. I do not want Duster lynched for scumminess. The fact that you do not know this proves that you did not actually read my post. Further, Duster coming up scum or town has nothing to do with why I'm suspicious of kab. I've said before and I'll say again: its because he has been consistently inconsistent.

Anyone else think that odd? Last post was 09/28, attacking destructor for “defending” duster.

Wrong. Way to mis-categorize my post. I am defending my logic for supporting a duster lynch, I never attack destructor at all.

Has crap argument on why leaving duster alive is a bad idea…no to mention

As I said earlier, you need a warrant to make a claim. Why is my argument crap? Try explaining it, not just being luck "Ha! Your idea is different then mine! It is therefore crap!"

he never had his vote on duster….

Again, if you had read my post, you would know that I did not vote because I was going to wait until I had finished all of my PBP's. As it turned out, things came up, I never got around to finishing my PBP's. Thus, no duster vote.

For attacking Kab’s push for duster lynch,

I am not attacking his push for a duster lynch. You are misrepresenting my attacks while apparently not actually reading them.

while you are active-aggressively doing the same thing without voting.

I am not at all doing what kab did. Kab went back and forth between trying to explain his behavior with noobness, to denying he made any scummy play at all, to voting him. THAT is what I'm attacking. Also, I've already explained why I never voted.

Also your earlier backtrack/lie makes you quite scummy looking.

Why was this a backtrack or lie. You have failed to explain besides saying "it looks like one".

I would like to see a new updated suspect list from you

I have no objections with that. I never got around to my old one.

Good catch on Sephiroth. I will have to reread him. What exactly is crap about the argument on lynching Duster (besides the fact that he never voted for Duster himself)?

I thought you were a better player then to call this mess of misrepresentations and assumptions "a good catch".

[kabenon007]

Duster coming up scum or town has nothing to do with why I'm suspicious of kab. I've said before and I'll say again: its because he has been consistently inconsistent.

You're joking. You have to be. Honestly! What inconsistencies do I have, oh wise Sephiroth? My opinions of dusterhan have changed, yes, but I have explained them, have not denied changing them, so where then are my inconsistencies?

[vampyrusddg]

Sorry I havn't been very active over the last week, will set time aside tommorow for a decent length post

[Sephiroth]

Duster coming up scum or town has nothing to do with why I'm suspicious of kab. I've said before and I'll say again: its because he has been consistently inconsistent.

You're joking. You have to be. Honestly! What inconsistencies do I have, oh wise Sephiroth? My opinions of dusterhan have changed, yes, but I have explained them, have not denied changing them, so where then are my inconsistencies?

Nice patronizing appeal to emotion. You can look into the answer for yourself, I outlined the posts in which you inexplicably changed your opinion all the way back in post 219, page 9.

[kabenon007]

Sephiroth, you are seriously overreaching here. I changed my opinion once... so that makes me repetetively change my opinions, according to you I guess. Consistently inconsistent would consist of me changing my opinion over and over, and I have really only had one opinion change of duster. And I have already explained my reasons for switching my opinion, (only once) and if you still find them scummy, I guess there's nothing I can do about it, because that is the truth, so... whatever. Duster was being lurky, yes, but he could have been just newb, but when we brought up the fact that we thought he shouldn't be lurking anymore, he still did it, so I changed my opinion, my tactics, cuz simple belief in his newbness wasn't gonna cut it anymore.

[Aimee]

I really agree with destructor's arguments against TinVision (although at the same time I think he is rather aggressively arguing them.) Nonetheless, I feel destructor is more likely to be town, and TV more likely to be scum after their excahnge - I wasn't impressed with the answers he gave.

@destructor - you label the answers "satisfactory". Why?

The case destructor makes on TV is interesting, but I don't think it's anything I'd be voting on anytime soon.

Fos: Atticus

Translation: "I shall sit here for a while, and when the bandwagon grows I can hop on."

What did this post contribute?

Atticus- I found him during my read posting making very short posts. He usually posts when somebody refers a question to him making him more reactive then proactive. Didn't really contribute much in his own words to the discussion. However I get a pro-town feeling on him.

You just spent all of that explaining why he could be scum. Why then do you find him town?

[curiouskarmadog]

reply coming, need time to pull quotes (unless Seph you actually want to reread yourself and admit you are wrong or "mistaken"). dont have the time right now.

[destructor]

@destructor - you label the answers "satisfactory". Why?

It was in response to part of Tin's posts I didn't quote:

Anyway, if you really think that I didn't answer to your argument satisfactorily, restate it in a concise manner and I'll respond to it soon.

It wasn't meant to mean much besides to acknowledge that Tin had responded. Satisfactory answers aren't necessarily pro-Town or scummy, but they do refer to the questions.

[Sephiroth]

To quote myself:

"post 51: says duster is unhelpful to town.
post 80: reiterates that duster is unhelpful. says "he is not scummy...yet"."

Here, you don't think that he is scummy, simply unhelpful.

"post 98: claims that dusters scummy looking posts can be explained by newbness."

According to your earlier posts, he didn't look scummy just unhelpful. Now, you are saying that he looked scummy, but it can be excused my newbness. Your first change of opinion, from thinking he wasn't scummy at all, to saying that what looks scummy could just be noob town.

"post 124: asks what the point of voting duster would be
post 135: votes duster"

Firstly, this is a contradiction and complete turnaround from both of your previous statements. First that he wasn't scummy looking, and second, that he only looked scummy because he was a noob. Also, the second post I just listed is a contradiction of itself, the first calling into question the point of voting duster, the second voting him.

You made several changes, and had more than one inconsistency. Saying you were "consistently inconsistent" may have been an overstatement. However, on the Duster wagon, you were not consistent at all.

Look at these two posts:

I was kinda wodering the same thing there Atticus. We have all established that dusterhan is lurking, we have asked him to post, and he hasn't. Why would placing a vote on him at this point do any good at all, unless Nirp was scum? I don't know, it does seem a tad scummy...

calling nirp scummy for voting Duster.

so dusterhan has enough time to post an "I'm here," but not enough time to actually put any kind of effort in. My vote is switching from

unvote

to

vote: dusterhan

.

voting duster only a few posts later.
if thats not inconsistency, then I don't know what is.

I'm not saying we should lynch him, all I am saying is that his posting mere I'm here posts but avoiding writing anything of importance is scummy, and right now he is the scummiest person in my eyes. I haven't really seen too much in the realm of other scumminess. My vote on Nekka was random, and my vote serves a better purpose on duster. I don't think he is any danger of being lynched yet. He is only at three I believe. And destructor, just for the record, there is really no such thing as a harmless scum, as long as one is alive, the town will die. There might be something like a worthless scum, who doesn't say anything and so is an easy lynch but provides no information. But I don't think any scum can be harmless.

nice backtrack.

Anyways, you're getting too worked up over this. Yes, you're one of my top suspects, but I am not voting you. This is because I haven't finished my PBP's on everyone yet. I'd rather wait until thats finished until I vote. Especially I would like to look into Knuck, since I've repetitively been told that he was more inconsistent then you were.

[Sephiroth]

(unless Seph you actually want to reread yourself and admit you are wrong or "mistaken"). dont have the time right now.

I don't see how I could possibly be wrong. Your case in a nutshell: misinterpreting my points and making assumptions about my playstyle. Unless you believe that you are better at interpreting my posts than I am, I suggest that you admit you are wrong.

[Atticus]

...

The case destructor makes on TV is interesting, but I don't think it's anything I'd be voting on anytime soon.

Fos: Atticus

Translation: "I shall sit here for a while, and when the bandwagon grows I can hop on."

...

Well you see, now you'll never know if I'll hop on it.

Planning to check out kabenon or TV after I do a couple of real life things.

[kabenon007]

According to your earlier posts, he didn't look scummy just unhelpful. Now, you are saying that he looked scummy, but it can be excused my newbness. Your first change of opinion, from thinking he wasn't scummy at all, to saying that what looks scummy could just be noob town.

I never said in post 98 that I saw him as appearing scummy, I was saying others were. Please try not to misinterpret my posts as that will look like you are overreaching.

He isn't acting so much scummy, he just isn't really helping the town too much

A direct quote from post 98, from which Sephiroth seems to derive my saying that I see dusterhan as scummy. I said, as was posted, that he might appear to be scummy, but at that time it could be excused by newbness. I never said he looked scummy in my own eyes. It was merely in reference to other's views of him. And even if I am taking this too seriously or whatever, at least it is sparking discussion.

[Sephiroth]

Nice edit job. heres the full quote:

I think that in the cases we are looking at, people are saying that dusterhan made a mistake, that he was exhibiting newbish tendencies. While his actions might appear scummy, appear is the key word. Sometimes newb actions can be mistaken for scummy actions. It's not an excuse for sloppy actions, but that is the difference people are hinting at. He isn't acting so much scummy, he just isn't really helping the town too much. Do you understand now, joost, or shall I elaborate a bit more?

Perhaps I misinterpreted this post, but I think youre simply playing semantics games with me at this point. I'm fairly certain that you were admitting to seeing him as slightly scummy, but now that its important, the wording lets you get out of it. The point is moot in any case, since it boils down to a difference in opinion.

Anyways, is that the only part of the case youre going to attack?

[vampyrusddg]

I don't agree with the case on Kaben, and I think your trying hard to find something that isn't there Sephiroth. You can find someone scummy and find someone voting on them scummy, possibly getting on the wagon to bus their buddy at an oppurtune point. Theres no real contradiction there, just scum hunting.

FOS: Sephiroth

I do like Aimee and CKDs assessment of Atticus, I'm leaning towards scum rather than town vibe from him at the moment.

[Sephiroth]

I don't agree with the case on Kaben, and I think your trying hard to find something that isn't there Sephiroth. You can find someone scummy and find someone voting on them scummy, possibly getting on the wagon to bus their buddy at an oppurtune point. Theres no real contradiction there, just scum hunting.

:disbelief:
How is this possible? He said in one post that Nirp was suspicious for voting Duster. In his very next post, he votes Duster. How in hell is that not a contradiction? Answer that.

Further, I'm not exactly trying to find anything. I posted my suspicions on him, and he responded. So then I respond. And so on and so forth. Its called

"discussion"

. It lets us get a better read on all parties involved, and also gives other players something to talk about, therefore making it a protown thing to do. Once we have exchanged a series of responses, we will probably come to a conclusion, and carry on with the game. I do not see any way that you could possibly conceive this as a scumtell. I would LOVE for you to explain why it is a scumtell for me to be continuing my discussion with Kab. If you cant come up with an answer, your FOS looks a LOT like a mafioso just trying to get some pressure off a buddy.

[vampyrusddg]

:disbelief:
How is this possible? He said in one post that Nirp was suspicious for voting Duster. In his very next post, he votes Duster. How in hell is that not a contradiction? Answer that.

Read the post above, seriously.

example:

I think player x is scum and find them suspicious

player y jumps on the wagon forming around player x with little to add to the curent case, making him look like he's busing his buddy to look cleaner when he was on the vote the next day

I vote player x anyway because if he does come up as scum I've got a good case against player y for tommorow anyway and the town can only lynch one scum a day

[Atticus]

Ugh! I can't get a read on anybody! 'Tis frustrating! I've still got nothing for you guys.

[Sephiroth]

example:

I think player x is scum and find them suspicious

player y jumps on the wagon forming around player x with little to add to the curent case, making him look like he's busing his buddy to look cleaner when he was on the vote the next day

I vote player x anyway because if he does come up as scum I've got a good case against player y for tommorow anyway and the town can only lynch one scum a day

I dont understand what hypothetical situation youre getting at. Please inform me which players would be which in the example. If you can't, then i dont see the relevance to the situation.

[kabenon007]

It's not a contradiction when taken in the context that my opinion changed between those two posts. Dusterhan appeared, read the thread, saw that we were wishing that he post, saw that we were thinking he was lurking, telling him he should not lurk, that it was being seen as scummy, and yet he continues to lurk. So my opinion changed. Plain and simple.

Also, perhaps my bolding a few words will help Sephiroth understand better...

I think that in the cases we are looking at,

people

are saying that dusterhan made a mistake, that he was exhibiting newbish tendencies. While his actions might appear scummy, appear is the key word. Sometimes newb actions can be mistaken for scummy actions. It's not an excuse for sloppy actions, but that is the difference

people

are hinting at.

He isn't acting so much scummy, he just isn't really helping the town too much.

Do you understand now, joost, or shall I elaborate a bit more?

[Sephiroth]

Also, perhaps my bolding a few words will help Sephiroth understand better...

I think that in the cases we are looking at,

people

are saying that dusterhan made a mistake, that he was exhibiting newbish tendencies. While his actions might appear scummy, appear is the key word. Sometimes newb actions can be mistaken for scummy actions. It's not an excuse for sloppy actions, but that is the difference

people

are hinting at.

He isn't acting so much scummy, he just isn't really helping the town too much.

Do you understand now, joost, or shall I elaborate a bit more?

You like that patronizing tone dont you kabenon?
Anyways, I understand what you're saying perfectly well. I just believe that you got lucky with your wording. But as I said, I'm going to drop this point because it is my personal opinion. I really cant argue an opinion of what you did.

Anyways, you claim that you made a complete turnaround on Duster because of his "I'm here" post, and the fact that this was his only contribution in light of being suspected. If this is so, it leads me to wonder what exactly is so different between this post and Dusters post 93, where he ignores all talk of himself, and simply asks for a vote count. Shouldn't this have produced the same turnaround that you later showed when duster posted "im here"? I simply do not understand why you just decided that the "I'm here" post put it over the edge, when it was clear from the beginning, and certainly from 93, that he didnt plan to contribute anything.