Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[Lowell]

Pretty comfortable calling snarky town. Fine if Nos wants to call me out on that shit again.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I only saw her say there was scum on the kt wagon once, but saying there's scum on a wagon and not identifying scum on the wagon isn't hedging. It's not following through.

Do you normally take this “strict” a language approach to this game. Because it looks like you are stretching so hard to just argue against the point I made. You say it is not following through. But Bella made the statement and despite multiple requests from myself to actually commit to working that angle she has refused. So I find it realistically likely she is more likely to be scum for quite possible not actually believing what she said. Do you disagree?

It's hard reading read progression of hydras when I don't know who is who.

The do what you should do from the start – treat the slot as a single player. Hydra dissonance isn’t something to excuse. Hydras need to coordinate their crap behind the scenes or be prepared to be held to the fire if they contradict each other.

^^^ this is a scummy post

Insert facepalm smilie here …

I'm incredibly skeptical of SnarkySnowman putting me as sole confirmed scum with current levels of content from my slot.

Feels like an attempt to generate a counterwagon. CoM flips scum that's my first priority.

So what is the take-away here? Are you stating that your slot has such a lack of content it is impossible for someone to draw a realistic scum-read on you?

[Nosferatu]

This is what I don't get.

yeah I also hadn't read your post. Get over yourself.

Assuming you just now remembered this game, why throw down an RVS vote as opposed to offer your thoughts on the non-serious content in the thread?

not RVS.

24/25 <--- who states suspicion only to come back literally an hour later to put a vote down? I could understand if it were a few minutes later and you were like "oh ya, I forgot to vote him actually" but no, he calls him tryhard scum, which is like ¿qué? cause like one thing is saying he was to lengthy in his response to a naked vote, (which I don't even get I mean when did post length become alignment-indicative) but another is calling him tryhard scum based on one post.

This is probably the best point in thread so far.

Vote: Ollie

votes ollie here

Lowell, come vote Ollie with me - it's a hell of a lot better vote than the thing you're doing now.

calls for votes on ollie here

@Ollie:

Why did you wait for an hour to vote?

24/25 <--- who states suspicion only to come back literally an hour later to put a vote down?

Why is it scummy that he came back an hour later to vote?

For the record, I don't think that it's scummy he came back an hour later to vote, just worthy of observation.

finds the matter curious here.

It doesn't make sense. If it was a pressure vote, why call for lowell to join in? Or alternatively, why not ask him the question along with your vote, not almost 200 posts later? And if my point was good, it would mean he thought it was scummy or what? Just agh.

I only saw her say there was scum on the kt wagon once, but saying there's scum on a wagon and not identifying scum on the wagon isn't hedging. It's not following through.

Do you normally take this “strict” a language approach to this game. Because it looks like you are stretching so hard to just argue against the point I made. You say it is not following through. But Bella made the statement and despite multiple requests from myself to actually commit to working that angle she has refused. So I find it realistically likely she is more likely to be scum for quite possible not actually believing what she said. Do you disagree?

I do often take a very strict approach as to semantics and syntax in games, but in this particular case it feels like by using the term "hedging" which has a known scummy connotation makes a post look scummier than it would be otherwise.

It's hard reading read progression of hydras when I don't know who is who.

The do what you should do from the start – treat the slot as a single player. Hydra dissonance isn’t something to excuse. Hydras need to coordinate their crap behind the scenes or be prepared to be held to the fire if they contradict each other.

It's still jarring imo

[SnarkySnowman]

VOTE: Severa

[kelbris]

vote count 1.11

Bellaphant (0): none
Severa (2): ChurchofMercy, SnarkySnowman
Jim (1): killthestory

jmo16mla

SnarkySnowman (0): none
MagnaofIllusion (0): none
Imperium (0): none
Killthestory (0): none
ChurchOfMercy (hydra, Klingoncelt and Albert B Rampage) (7) [L-1]: Oceanwind, Lowell, Imperium, Bellaphant, MagnaofIllusion, Severa, Xixiqomelir
Lowell (0): none
Nosferatu (1): Ollie
acryon (0): none
OceanWind (0): none

KTthecreeper

Xisiqomelir (0): none
Ollie (0): none
not voting: Jim, Nosferatu, acryon,
With 14 players alive, it takes 8 votes to lynch.
day 1 has begun, it will end in (expired on 2016-04-16 19:01:46)

[Nosferatu]

Pretty comfortable calling snarky town. Fine if Nos wants to call me out on that shit again.

His he tonally town, gut read, or what?

[Lowell]

Tonally, I would say, if I have to choose.

There was one post in particular I really liked. I'm too lazy to find it again, but I can if for some reason it matters.

[Bellaphant]

I agreed with mag's points around how he wants to be viewd by the town 254.

I don't follow. Acryon was the one who said MagnaOfIllusion is overly concerned with how he is perceived by the town. What exactly are you agreeing with here?

256 bout low hanging fruit seems super weasley to me. I also didn't like in Post 268 we're rehasing an agurment over the first 'six -posts' instead of moving forward. There's a lack of consistent movement in a sensible direction.

What do you mean "super-weasley?" You just repeated what MagnaOfIllusion said about "weasel language." How was Acryon being weasley? Also, he was "rehashing the argument" because I was pushing him on it. Would you expect him to not respond?

irt to lowell: firstly, my role pm, secondly the push on kt (eaaaaasy bait), immediate townread on magna, imp, ollie, kts, scum-reads with no reasoning: I had like ten posts this morning to his 18, but I feel I've provided some content (and more now), rather than the lack of info with lowell.

If you found Lowell's push on KTthecreeper scummy, why didn't you say anything about it then? You only said "

one of the votes on him is probably scum

" (Post 76). When specifically asked which vote you found scummy, you were still vague about it "

I can easily see scum pushing a mislynch and with four votes, it's probable that one may be'

(Post 223).

Ok, trying this again because I'm obviously not communicating.

In 191 Acron says he's super town. He later, as you say, pops of MoI for being 'too concerned' with how he looks and again passes off something as he's said as not totally serious. Looks like distancing language. The points about contradiction were what I liked.

Mmm, weasel language may've been what moi called it, but I'm not sure why I can't agree with that? I've already made it clear I was coming down on their side of things. My issue is he starts of by saying he was low hanging fruit, then he wasn't, then he isn't, and then it doesn't matter anyway. I just feel there's a lot of distancing between what was said between one time and the next around the same core idea.

IRt lowell, the 'one of the votes is probably scum' was a general comment, based off of my experiences playing with kt before. The thread has moved on a tonne and you now seem to be implying that it's scummy that I a) had an opinion based in supposition and b) added this supposition to other concerns I have about lowell and then the suspicion got stronger. At the time I obviously wasn't going to be thinking 'I know one of these votes is obvs!scum but i'm not going to say who', more 'I don't like this situation because of my previous experience'. And then other shit happened.

Also, before I go trawl back through the two games I was linked, why do you want it? It's there for you if you want it - and it'd be a dumb thing for me to make up. If I can get behind your answer, I'll do it.

I fail to see how this is her hedging.

You do? Please explain why repeatedly saying that there is scum on a wagon but doing nothing in relation to tracking down said scum from their play re: the wagon isn’t hedging against giving actual reads.

I hadn't done much of anything before I came back of vla. I hope I've explained this above.

I fail to see how this is her hedging.

You do? Please explain why repeatedly saying that there is scum on a wagon but doing nothing in relation to tracking down said scum from their play re: the wagon isn’t hedging against giving actual reads.

I only saw her say there was scum on the kt wagon once, but saying there's scum on a wagon and not identifying scum on the wagon isn't hedging. It's not following through.

Again, maybe it'd help if you asked me this question a different way, because I'm struggling to explain differently.

^^^ this is a scummy post

doing exactly what he said he would do previously is scummy?

I like this.

I'm incredibly skeptical of SnarkySnowman putting me as sole confirmed scum with current levels of content from my slot.

Feels like an attempt to generate a counterwagon. CoM flips scum that's my first priority.

But this rings alarm bells. Are you going to be surprised when com flips scum?
What do you think about the lack of counter wagons?

[OceanWind]

Consider this an intent to hammer.

Wait till Bellaphant and Jim come back and answer my questions. I also want SnarkySnowman to post more.

---

There was one post in particular I really liked. I'm too lazy to find it again, but I can if for some reason it matters.

You are kidding, right? He made three posts. The first was saying that he would catch up, and the last was a naked vote for Severa. That leaves one post.

---

My issue is he starts of by saying he was low hanging fruit, then he wasn't, then he isn't, and then it doesn't matter anyway. I just feel there's a lot of distancing between what was said between one time and the next around the same core idea.

No. The argument goes like this:

Spoiler: Low Hanging fruit argument

1. Acryon: (MagnaOfIllusion) actually seems to be jumping on low-hanging fruit and seems overly concerned with his standing amongst the town.

2. MagnaOfIllusion: I want to highlight the “Low hanging fruit” comment. He’s suggesting I’m attacking him for being a soft target for some reason. Yet he doesn’t see himself as one – he brags about not ever being lynched Day 1. So are we supposed to believe he is both simultaneously an easy target (intimating I am scum pushing on weak Town) and not one?

3. Acryon: At the time I was a low hanging fruit. I think once you get a closer look you'll realize I'm not, but that doesn't mean I wasn't at the time within the context of the game.

4. MagnaOfIllusion: Um, whut? So you were Low Hanging Fruit but you are not? I can't wrap my head around the level of self-contradiction here. Either you are an easy target who can get pushed for questionable reasons or you aren't. The fact that you were trying to position yourself as such in a soft attempt to attack me I find suspect given your response here.

5. Acryon: You're acting as if 1) perception doesn't matter and 2) status doesn't change. As for perception, being or not being low-hanging fruit has a lot to do with the overall town's perception of someone as such. Low-hanging fruit doesn't have a strict definition in mafia since the game is so fluid and differs so much from game to game. In the situation of me, I was a low-hanging fruit to you at the time because I hadn't had a real chance to even post something non-RVS yet you jumped on me for not doing so. Players are not strictly low-hanging fruit or not low-hanging fruit.

6. MagnaOfIllusion: I'm acting as if you were using weasel language to attack me, that I called you out on it, and now the phrase "Low Hanging Fruit" is some nebulous, ever-changing concept that varies from post to post. Fact is that you were using language calculated to have a negative connotation (translated - MoI is attacking me because I'm an easy target) while not being able to justify how that stance makes any sense. If you were at that point as easy a target as you say then my vote on you would clearly not be using such "bad" logic as you keep claiming. You can't be have been simultaneously be an easy target and being attacked with terrible logic that wouldn't hold up to scrutiny at the same time.

7. Acryon: What? I already pointed to how it made sense. I appeared as "low-hanging fruit" at the time since I had only commented on the policy lynch essentially, and my later posts where I didn't address anything else made it look like I wasn't reading the game. Rather than thinking "Hm, it's only his first day posting; let's see what he has tomorrow", you demonized me as purposefully not commenting on what all had happened within the game. You saw my lack of posts relative to the rest of the game and turned it into --> "Lacks any engagement in the game beyond the Policy Lynch issue."

Show me precisely where Acryon was doing a lot of distancing between one idea and the next. I strongly suspect you are bs'ing your explanations and riding on MagnaOfIllusion's coattails. I want specifics here.

@Imperium -

You say that you expect MagnaOfIllusion to react exactly as he did to the low-hanging fruit argument. In your mind, does this also apply to Bellaphant? It's pretty clear to me what Acryon was arguing and it apparently is to you as well. What do you make of Bellaphant's post here (the segment I quoted above)?

Also, before I go trawl back through the two games I was linked, why do you want it? It's there for you if you want it - and it'd be a dumb thing for me to make up. If I can get behind your answer, I'll do it.

I want to verify that you did in fact read the games like you say you did. I'm not going to assume that you did if you don't provide evidence of it. First, you delayed providing this information. Now you are asking me to justify why I'm asking when it's completely obvious. Then you claim that you'll only provide it if you can "get behind my reason." If you really did look at those games like you say you did, this should be trivially easy.

[Killthestory]

K Bella prob town got good vibes off that post

Several Lynch would be nice

[SnarkySnowman]

K Bella prob town got good vibes off that post

Several Lynch would be nice

I'll be honest, I'm starting to see the argument for Bella being scum. I'm not sure I'm feeling the town vibes off the post you mention but I'm a little more cautious with my townread on bella - maybe into the null category for now?

[OceanWind]

I'll be honest, I'm starting to see the argument for Bella being scum. I'm not sure I'm feeling the town vibes off the post you mention but I'm a little more cautious with my townread on bella - maybe into the null category for now?

Is there a reason you ignored all the posts asking for explanations on your reads?

[Severa]

VOTE: SnarkySnowman

I still believe that CoM is scum on principle but I'm near positive that this is scum.
He has no justification for having me as sole scumread. If he wants to say 'Severa needs to post more, useless slot, lurksack', etc.? Say that forever.
But for me to be his #1 scumread is fucking bunk.

I don't like his stance on the CoM wagon either. I feel like he's either scum with them or he's scum trying to position for a push on me tomorrow after their flip.
Either way, I'm prioritizing this over CoM.

[SnarkySnowman]

I am fine with a ChurchOfMercy lynch today.

I'm diffident about whether to read through for other scumreads as well before seeing the flip.

Complacency isn't necessarily a scumread, but this gave me bad vibes.

See, even the fact that you called out Acryon instead of me is tellling.
I can imagine this level of passive aggressiveness but I'd expect that the one you'd be calling out is the one who told you you're full of shit because I'd be the one antagonizing you here.
This is making a show, not your actual feelings.

VOTE: ChurchOfMercy

This felt pretty bad, for a lot of reasons. Actually, on re-read, ChurchofMercy's response in 338 and 339 is pretty shit, too.

Why do you talk like you think you're god's gift to scumhunting?
I'll give you a little hint: you're not.
I will not be unvoting CoM today unless something big happens.

This, directed at Kts, feels like it's meant to be de-railing to one of the most thorough cases (against Bella) that I've seen Kts make.

Ha!?
I am not scum!

Church's reactions were incredibly off and their AtE rang insincere. I'm lynching them.

I will read Bella for you though!

While I'm in agreement that Church's reactions were fairly scummy, I'm curious as to your thought on Bella, since you've ignored that. How do you read them at the moment?

I'm incredibly skeptical of SnarkySnowman putting me as sole confirmed scum with current levels of content from my slot.

Feels like an attempt to generate a counterwagon. CoM flips scum that's my first priority.

The motivation behind all your posts feels forced in context. And this, saying you're skeptical of me putting you as my only scumread (as opposed to scumlean), feels like you're upset that I caught you for the wrong reason.

Keep in mind, I'm not exactly townreading CoM.

VOTE: SnarkySnowman

I still believe that CoM is scum on principle but I'm near positive that this is scum.
He has no justification for having me as sole scumread. If he wants to say 'Severa needs to post more, useless slot, lurksack', etc.? Say that forever.
But for me to be his #1 scumread is fucking bunk.

I don't like his stance on the CoM wagon either. I feel like he's either scum with them or he's scum trying to position for a push on me tomorrow after their flip.
Either way, I'm prioritizing this over CoM.

Is this the "something big" you were referring to? Again, feels OMGUS-y more than convinced.

I have justification - you've posted very little, you've derailed what I think was a possible route of discussion, which I think would have been productive, and you've avoided giving opinion on anyone other than CoM and now myself, as far as alignment goes. Plus, I see the associative between you and CoM forming, and I think that I could get some information out of your lynch, which I think is more likely to be scum than CoM's.

[Severa]

The associative?

VOTE: CoM

Yeah, Snarky and CoM are scumbuddies.

[SnarkySnowman]

The associative?

VOTE: CoM

Yeah, Snarky and CoM are scumbuddies.

That is, you are not likely of the same alignment as CoM.

[Ollie]

MagnaofIllusion & OceanWind are my strongest town reads, partly cos of thorough interrogations like this: 601 & this: 608. I think they're going after players with genuine intent of finding scum without fear of coming out with a load of shit that makes them look scummy. So they're really getting into it with people, & with questions that make sense. The first ones I can say are proper town reads.

Nos looking more town here: 572 seeing a pattern of him taking more firm stances on things now, & here 602, he was looking into things in more depth, risking pissing people off, which I've been suspecting he's avoided through not interacting with many people & focusing on me. But I don't know if he's genuinely reassessed his read on me which has town motivation, or said he's losing interest in me as a placatory measure to put me off sniffing around him.

[Severa]

Why can't I be wrong town?
Why can't I be scum bussing?

Your positions are terrible.

[Severa]

Yeah actually.

VOTE: Snarky

I

do

think that CoM is going to flip scum but this is a much more interesting wagon.

[Severa]

I have justification - you've posted very little, you've derailed what I think was a possible route of discussion, which I think would have been productive, and you've avoided giving opinion on anyone other than CoM and now myself, as far as alignment goes. Plus, I see the associative between you and CoM forming, and I think that I could get some information out of your lynch, which I think is more likely to be scum than CoM's.

I didn't derail diddly squat. I haven't even been a major pusher on CoM.
Yes, I have not given a strong read on anyone besides the two of you. I don't have a strong read on anyone besides the two of you. I scumread CoM, he's getting lynched, I'm in no rush to do massive reading with no flip.
This is absolutely horrendous. You're now coming around to a scumread on CoM - but pushing to get at it by lynching me? No, sorry, that's not a thing.

The motivation behind all your posts feels forced in context. And this, saying you're skeptical of me putting you as my only scumread (as opposed to scumlean), feels like you're upset that I caught you for the wrong reason.

No, this is not even close to 'caught for the wrong reasons' and you're using it as a buzzword here.
I'm saying that you /can't legitimately be scumhunting/ because you wouldn't come to me as your sole scumread based on that.

While I'm in agreement that Church's reactions were fairly scummy, I'm curious as to your thought on Bella, since you've ignored that. How do you read them at the moment?

I didn't bother.
Caught for the wrong reasons is entirely unrelated.

This, directed at Kts, feels like it's meant to be de-railing to one of the most thorough cases (against Bella) that I've seen Kts make.

If you were implying that I'm scum with Bella and using the CoM wagon to divert attention from Bella you'd come right the fuck out and say it.
This is a half assed roundabout way of dealing with it and it's not how town would deal with it.
This is scum trying to doubtcast, not scum righteously attempting to sort people's alignments.

This felt pretty bad, for a lot of reasons. Actually, on re-read, ChurchofMercy's response in 338 and 339 is pretty shit, too.

Hey I'm going to say Severa's scum but CoM's scum too!

Complacency isn't necessarily a scumread, but this gave me bad vibes.

You gave me bad vibes too.
Hint: saying something that's entirely unfalsifiable gives you no leverage pushing on me.

[Severa]

Stop lynching CoM today please.

Snarky is scum and they're dying today.

[Severa]

What I believe is going on is that SS is scum with CoM and was looking for a counterwagon on either Bella or myself and thought that my low content meant was that I'm an easy target.
It's also possible that CoM is town and that SS is trying to set me up as a future lynch while keeping himself open to a jump on the CoM wagon to make sure it happens if necessary.

Regardless of which is the case, Snarky is scum. I'd like everyone in their next post to vote him or explain to me why they townread him.

[Severa]

Going to look at JMO again because SS doesn't have much to tackle.

[Severa]

VOTE: ollie

You don't even have a face:(

Interesting play.

Nvm I'm an idiot.

Magna is going to be annoying as hell, but, unfortunately, is town.

that was quick.

VOTE: lowell

I dont like him calling out kt, although i agree it was a weird reaction by him... It wasnt indicative of scum.

I dont like him calling out albert as a friend to "get in here"

I dont like him calling you town so early in the game.

Imp, you're town. Good on you.

Ollie? Ollie is fine? I guess. Not seeing what you're seeing I guess.

You're handing out town cards

Acronym and Jmoe ping me very early on. ISOing now

I'm not sure about you, but when im scum, i typically give out town cards pretty easily. do you?

Catching up today.

I'll see if I can catch up. If not I'm just going to replace out

Jmo's ISO, ladies and gentlemen.
0 scumhunting, literally all he does is calls people out for having townreads.
The worst part is that there's no follow up whatsoever and he makes no effort to seriously defend it as if he has any conviction in his scumreads.
KTS calls him out as a scumread and he says that super passive 'i hand out town reads to you' and it feels way more like he's afraid of town townreading other town.
So two 0 content scum slots that haven't scumhunted whatsoever.

Powerlynch it.

[OceanWind]

Yeah, that case by SnarkySnowman was baloney. The part about "derailing the more thorough cases against Bellaphant" was a huge stretch. I'm actually leaning towards Bellaphant and SnarkySnowman being mafia together. Considering he has Bellaphant as a "townlean," it is odd the way he is trying to tie Bellaphant and Severa together and accusing Severa of shutting down discussion on Bellaphant. I'd rather lynch SnarkySnowman today. Do we have the time and the numbers to switch?

UNVOTE: ChurchOfMercy
VOTE: SnarkySnowman