Mini 1782 Game Over

[Ircher]

Vote Count - Day 2 VC #2

Titus (0) -
Mhsmith (0) -
Huntress (0) -
Froot (0) -
Johnny (0) -
Max (2) - Titus, Lowell
FA_Q2 (0) -
Shaddow (0) -
Plain (0) -
Lowell (0) -
Rosh (0) -
No Lynch (0) -
Not Voting (11) - Shaddow, Froot, Huntress, FA_Q2, Plain, Mhsmith, Max, Johnny, Rosh

Deadline

Day 2 will end on May 2 5:30 PM EST or in (expired on 2016-05-02 17:30:00).

Lynch Threshold

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Mod Notes

Shaddowez requested replacement.
Updated/Clarified Rule E7.

[Froot Loop]

This is what I posted about Max:

@Shaddowez - ah ok, sorry, I was caught up in the context and missed that part of the post.

About Jake/Max, most of this is repetition but it's what I'm thinking:

1) I think he's presented conflicting information in the thread and then been misleading about it. I linked to the posts I'm talking about in post 663
2) The way Jake was posting at the beginning of the game and the way he reacted to questioning about his pre-game opinion makes me think that he wouldn't back down from being questioned. The argument that he would do this as town isn't applicable, for me.
3) I get a bullying impression from his interaction with FA. I think he was panicking and responded like this to FA's questioning.
4) His discussion of reads lists (post 356, post 446, post 472) is theory-based posting rather than analysis of the game.

[I want to clarify that this was town-leaning theory posting i.e. posting theory that looked beneficial to town.]

5) About Max - I don't think Jake was close to being lynched, so presenting this as a context in which to view Jake's behaviour (post 938) isn't valid IMO.
6) Pointing out the lurkers and Jeanne's vote is pretty null for me.

(bold added now)

I just read through APF's ISO, he was one of my null reads, and I'm getting a townie vibe from him. There's a good mixture of questioning, analysis and he's changed his manner/tone when dealing with some people (I'm thinking about smith) which I think is hard to fabricate as scum. We obviously disagree on the clumsy/max thing but I don’t think the way that was played is indicative.

[Roshar]

Going to hopefully add input later today

[mhsmith0]

I'm not really sure what to think about how EOD went down. I was at a business meeting; should have made a note in thread to that effect, but figured that hammer would have been closer to deadline and I could chip in then.

I was slightly bugged by Roshar's EOD; her 1242 and subsequent posts read like an over-reaction to Clumsy's statement that he was basically ok with lynching max, roshar or lowell. Clumsy's "anyone but me" bit (which really was what it seemed to amount to) was suspicious, but I'm not sure it merited such a strong reaction. That may just be a playstyle thing though.

PS IMO, 1207 was not a misrep. At the time of Clumsy's vote, he wasn't offering an opinion on Max's alignment (he went with "this does make it look a bit worse", and it was unclear if or how much it cancelled out his earlier town read), and even hedged with the "even if I was 99% sure he was town" bit.

[Huntress]

Going to reread a couple of people but I probably won't be able to do that until later tomorrow.

[FA_Q2]

Ok. Ty. *scribbles*

My headspace is that Max was a scum wagon that failed to take hold. People didn't scumhunt much after I got back from my Vla though.

Where are you at?

Why?

I do not see any case that you have supported or placed for that slot. What makes his wagon scummy?

[Titus]

Ok. Ty. *scribbles*

My headspace is that Max was a scum wagon that failed to take hold. People didn't scumhunt much after I got back from my Vla though.

Where are you at?

Why?

I do not see any case that you have supported or placed for that slot. What makes his wagon scummy?

The fact you're posting this rather than pushing who you think is scum or scumhunting.

The group was presented with two wagons. One took off and the other didn't. Why? Why did the game stall with Maxous's wagon but Clumsy's wagon went through when Maxous has done nothing?

It strongly suggests Maxous is scum as well. Even in the rare event I'm wrong, a lot of the game state reveals itself in a Max flip.

Overall, a Max wagon is an excellent place to be until he proves otherwise.

Why aren't you pushing a wagon but instead derailing scumhunting?

[FA_Q2]

Ok. Ty. *scribbles*

My headspace is that Max was a scum wagon that failed to take hold. People didn't scumhunt much after I got back from my Vla though.

Where are you at?

Why?

I do not see any case that you have supported or placed for that slot. What makes his wagon scummy?

The fact you're posting this rather than pushing who you think is scum or scumhunting.

The group was presented with two wagons. One took off and the other didn't. Why? Why did the game stall with Maxous's wagon but Clumsy's wagon went through when Maxous has done nothing?

It strongly suggests Maxous is scum as well. Even in the rare event I'm wrong, a lot of the game state reveals itself in a Max flip.

Overall, a Max wagon is an excellent place to be until he proves otherwise.

Why aren't you pushing a wagon but instead derailing scumhunting?

When has asking a question meant derailing?

Apparently, asking Titus what she is getting at is a no no. Considering you have done nothing at all except vote one player without putting up a case you really do not have a leg to stand on. Further, I replaced in right at the end of the last day. I am not slogging through 40 pages of vitriol and force replacements to engage with a player list that only contains half of the players present.

Why are you not scum hunting rather than voteparking the max slot?

[Lowell]

@froot, re: questions- either I ignored them because they're dumb or I forgot. remind me what you asked.

[Titus]

@FAQ2, I am scumhunting. Figuring out the game state D1 , like I described, is scumhunting. I want to know Max's alignment.

There's little need to slog through 40 pages of vitriol in most replace ins. It's controversial but most replace catchups just result in peacocking and rehashing everything that came before and getting nothing done. Only if players highlight specific things is it usually wort the hassle.

You are not scumhunting here. Your questions aren't seeking alignment. Rather, the primary purpose seems to be to discouraging wagoning to uncover information.

Why not let Max defend himself and let his slot sort himself out? You're derailing investigations without stating a townread on Max. Why?

[Froot Loop]

@froot, re: questions- either I ignored them because they're dumb or I forgot. remind me what you asked.

Waaaa, Lowell, I don't have time to do this just now. I (and others) mentioned it a few times. Did you notice when we were asking you? Right now I'd be more interested in why you didn't answer at the time than the answers to the questions.

The group was presented with two wagons. One took off and the other didn't. Why? Why did the game stall with Maxous's wagon but Clumsy's wagon went through when Maxous has done nothing?

It strongly suggests Maxous is scum as well.

Even in the rare event I'm wrong, a lot of the game state reveals itself in a Max flip.

Overall, a Max wagon is an excellent place to be until he proves otherwise.

(my bold)

I think this is a fair interpretation of events although I disagree with the idea of lynching Max for the info. Max didn't respond to my questions until I pushed him on it. Could be that he felt like he didn't need to because he was feeling particularly secure. Although, this is fair enough because it really didn't take hold. If that's because he's scum and the other members were pushing the Clumsy wagon, I don't know.

[Maxous]

I would say the nosferatu kill would implicate Lowell the most to be honest.
He was the only person nos was really against.

I'm with this thinking, and I take the blame.

VOTE: max

^
This was a pretty poor vote anyway.
sheeping titus and "taking blame" for a mislynch he didn't actually hard-push sounds off.

I would still say huntress is scummy, she seemed pretty content to let the mislynch go through without getting her hands dirty so to speak.

For me it's the willingness to believe what's his name was just busy instead of lurker scum but not that other person. Makes her reads seem arbitrary.

I've mentioned 3-4 times that the scum-read on huntress is not a lurker lynch
it's because of her struggle and unwillingness to give and explain reads.

Max didn't respond to my questions until I pushed him on it. Could be that he felt like he didn't need to because he was feeling particularly secure.

because you're asking me to defend a lot of BS that Jake wrote.
I can't, I would simply suggest, just look at previous games from himself - you will see largely the same behaviour.

[Froot Loop]

@Lowell - here are some questions/comments I found.

Anyone who asks things like "is this a pressure vote, or a lynch vote" is inherently suspicious, IMO.

I was trying to clarify Roshar's comment when she voted. Why is asking that scummy?

Aw, man. Maverick's getting replaced too?


Titus (RC) and Huntress (Kain Tepes) are both mysteries to me. Moving on to D2 with so little is so frustrating.

Let's see,

Lowell

, can I get current reads from you on each slot? I can't help but notice that you keep jumping on every wagon created.

In terms of Clumsy's actual content, I don't feel better about it. It's more him feeling bad about being a liability. That parts kinda getting to me. B/c that would be the correct town response to being falsely accused as town. But shouldn't there be some anger and bitterness too? Like 'Screw you guys, I hope it hurts when I flip town?'

Now, on to the actual content. I don't like how his read on me changed. Reading something the first time and thinking it's town, then going back and thinking it's scummy, is a thing. But vice-versa, reading something and finding it scummy the first time, then upon a reread thinking it's town, is just never a thing that has occurred to me. Which makes me think his read on me the first time was empty and going with the flow of things.

He gives lukewarm reads without backing them up and easily retracts them. His read on froot has changed as well, and it's almost making me feel like he gave his original town read on Froot just to appease us.

But his tone is making me hesitate.

Input anyone? Mhs, Apf, replacements maybe?

What do you think Lowell?

(my bold)

@roshar

VOTE: nos

I like this idea. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice... something something... you DONT GET FOOLED AGAIN.

I'd also be up for a lurker hunt, if we have the time for it. Frankly I don't have a lot of bad vibes from anyone yet, so I'm clearly missing something. Either I'm wrong (impossible!) or one or more of the lurkers is scum.

^this is lowell somehow agreeing with some part of FA's case on me (mind you was pretty non-existent)

what part, the world may never know

VOTE: roshar

This guy is barely holding it together and we've just started. Come do this with me and watch this poor rube flail. His ISO reeks of careful scum... already, somehow.

Also clumsy's ham-handed "omg how many scum are there guyz" is the worst fake-townslip I've seen in a while. which is saying something.

maverick is town.

rosh is fine now. done with him.

smith's 351 looks like a try-hard filler post after he got called out for lurking. what i can do in one charismatic and awesome sentence he takes a text-wall to do. except he still does nothing.

VOTE: smith

Jake is town, farmer is town. I'm back up to 'meh' on smith.

VOTE: nos

I like this idea. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice... something something... you DONT GET FOOLED AGAIN.

I'd also be up for a lurker hunt, if we have the time for it. Frankly I don't have a lot of bad vibes from anyone yet, so I'm clearly missing something. Either I'm wrong (impossible!) or one or more of the lurkers is scum.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: clumsy

Lowell has also been voting every major suspicion of the town

The only bitterness I have is towards Lowell. I'm finding it increasingly scummy that he's trying so hard to put the nail in my coffin. In fact, I could easily see it as pushing a mislynch, and purposefully leaving himself open for a team bus for towncred. Just a theory though.

[Titus]

@froot, re: questions- either I ignored them because they're dumb or I forgot. remind me what you asked.

Waaaa, Lowell, I don't have time to do this just now. I (and others) mentioned it a few times. Did you notice when we were asking you? Right now I'd be more interested in why you didn't answer at the time than the answers to the questions.

The group was presented with two wagons. One took off and the other didn't. Why? Why did the game stall with Maxous's wagon but Clumsy's wagon went through when Maxous has done nothing?

It strongly suggests Maxous is scum as well.

Even in the rare event I'm wrong, a lot of the game state reveals itself in a Max flip.

Overall, a Max wagon is an excellent place to be until he proves otherwise.

(my bold)

I think this is a fair interpretation of events although I disagree with the idea of lynching Max for the info. Max didn't respond to my questions until I pushed him on it. Could be that he felt like he didn't need to because he was feeling particularly secure. Although, this is fair enough because it really didn't take hold. If that's because he's scum and the other members were pushing the Clumsy wagon, I don't know.

I do think that's what happened. When I said pick Clumsy or Max, everyone picked Clumsy. I had no case on either of them. I hadn't read. So why would one be more popular than the other? Because Maxous is probably scum.

I'm not saying we should lynch Maxous to verify it. I'm just saying it's a very low risk lynch that has upside even if wrong.

[Titus]

I would say the nosferatu kill would implicate Lowell the most to be honest.
He was the only person nos was really against.

I'm with this thinking, and I take the blame.

VOTE: max

^
This was a pretty poor vote anyway.
sheeping titus and "taking blame" for a mislynch he didn't actually hard-push sounds off.

I would still say huntress is scummy, she seemed pretty content to let the mislynch go through without getting her hands dirty so to speak.

For me it's the willingness to believe what's his name was just busy instead of lurker scum but not that other person. Makes her reads seem arbitrary.

I've mentioned 3-4 times that the scum-read on huntress is not a lurker lynch
it's because of her struggle and unwillingness to give and explain reads.

Max didn't respond to my questions until I pushed him on it. Could be that he felt like he didn't need to because he was feeling particularly secure.

because you're asking me to defend a lot of BS that Jake wrote.
I can't, I would simply suggest, just look at previous games from himself - you will see largely the same behaviour.

So, you've doubtcasted three or four slots, but what of this is actually supposed to determine alignment? Especially when you didn't vote anyone here.

[Ircher]

Vote Count - Day 2 VC #2

Titus (0) -
Mhsmith (0) -
Huntress (0) -
Froot (0) -
Johnny (0) -
Max (2) - Titus, Lowell
FA_Q2 (0) -
Shaddow (0) -
Plain (0) -
Lowell (0) -
Rosh (0) -
No Lynch (0) -
Not Voting (11) - Shaddow, Froot, Huntress, FA_Q2, Plain, Mhsmith, Max, Johnny, Rosh

Deadline

Day 2 will end on May 2 5:30 PM EST or in (expired on 2016-05-02 17:30:00).

Lynch Threshold

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Mod Notes

Shaddowez requested replacement.

[Roshar]

Sorry guys. Will get to posting today.

[JohnnyFarrar]

I posted a bit about what I thought about Max yesterday.

Lowell - some people asked you questions yesterday but you haven't answered.

This is an annoying response to a call to action

Titus do you ever get tired of explaining when you don't re-read a thread?

Fack2 you either seem to not understand the way Titus is analyzing d1 or you're just willingly ignoring it but this lil tussle you two are having doesn't seem to be going anywhere favorable for you in my eyes

I would still say huntress is scummy, she seemed pretty content to let the mislynch go through without getting her hands dirty so to speak.

Strikes me as one of those 'damned if you do damned if you don't' situations, because I can just as easily imagine you saying something like 'she used deadline as an excuse to vote for that mislynch' had she voted

I've mentioned 3-4 times that the scum-read on huntress is not a lurker lynch
it's because of her struggle and unwillingness to give and explain reads.

I saw you respond once to the idea when I posited it here, but that was hardly a defense from the accusation.

Titus any update on Max thoughts after seeing him post a bit?

[Maxous]

I saw you respond once to the idea when I posited it here, but that was hardly a defense from the accusation.

Don't worry about it.
I was tired and being a bit snippy.
Maybe I wasn't clear before but I think it's scummy because she has struggled to come up with content to give. I don't think it's case where she's just lurking, I think suspect she

can't

come up with much which would indicate a scum struggling with the game.

i'll vote lowell though because i'm really not inclined to just ignore the nos night-kill.
People will argue WIFOM but nos was not an obvious kill nor a universal strong town-read so i'm inclined to think there was a particular reason for it.
Not like Lowell has been a shining beacon of town play regardless

vote: lowell

[Froot Loop]

I posted a bit about what I thought about Max yesterday.

Lowell - some people asked you questions yesterday but you haven't answered.

This is an annoying response to a call to action.

What do you mean?

I saw you respond once to the idea when I posited it here, but that was hardly a defense from the accusation.

Don't worry about it.
I was tired and being a bit snippy.
Maybe I wasn't clear before but I think it's scummy because she has struggled to come up with content to give. I don't think it's case where she's just lurking,

I think suspect she

can't

come up with much which would indicate a scum struggling with the game.

i'll vote lowell though because i'm really not inclined to just ignore the nos night-kill.
People will argue WIFOM but nos was not an obvious kill nor a universal strong town-read so i'm inclined to think there was a particular reason for it.
Not like Lowell has been a shining beacon of town play regardless

vote: lowell

(my bold/italic)

That's what I understood. There was also the discussion of the flashlynch on Lowell at the end of D1. Lowell's play has been noticed by a few players, I'm not sure NKing Nos would make that pressure disappear.

@max - you did provide analysis of Jake's play when I asked you more directly.

I had a look at the votes on Nos yesterday. In the vote counts, they're Johnny Farrar (voting as FA,) Lowell, Shaddow, Titus (voting as RC) and Rosh. I'd be interested in people's reads on nos yesterday. I had quite a positive reaction to their play.

[Titus]

I saw you respond once to the idea when I posited it here, but that was hardly a defense from the accusation.

Don't worry about it.
I was tired and being a bit snippy.
Maybe I wasn't clear before but I think it's scummy because she has struggled to come up with content to give. I don't think it's case where she's just lurking, I think suspect she

can't

come up with much which would indicate a scum struggling with the game.

i'll vote lowell though because i'm really not inclined to just ignore the nos night-kill.
People will argue WIFOM but nos was not an obvious kill nor a universal strong town-read so i'm inclined to think there was a particular reason for it.
Not like Lowell has been a shining beacon of town play regardless

vote: lowell

Why did you ignore my question?

[Titus]

I posted a bit about what I thought about Max yesterday.

Lowell - some people asked you questions yesterday but you haven't answered.

This is an annoying response to a call to action

Titus do you ever get tired of explaining when you don't re-read a thread?

Fack2 you either seem to not understand the way Titus is analyzing d1 or you're just willingly ignoring it but this lil tussle you two are having doesn't seem to be going anywhere favorable for you in my eyes

I would still say huntress is scummy, she seemed pretty content to let the mislynch go through without getting her hands dirty so to speak.

Strikes me as one of those 'damned if you do damned if you don't' situations, because I can just as easily imagine you saying something like 'she used deadline as an excuse to vote for that mislynch' had she voted

I've mentioned 3-4 times that the scum-read on huntress is not a lurker lynch
it's because of her struggle and unwillingness to give and explain reads.

I saw you respond once to the idea when I posited it here, but that was hardly a defense from the accusation.

Titus any update on Max thoughts after seeing him post a bit?

I'll update when I'm actually able to talk to him.

[FA_Q2]

I posted a bit about what I thought about Max yesterday.

Lowell - some people asked you questions yesterday but you haven't answered.

This is an annoying response to a call to action

Titus do you ever get tired of explaining when you don't re-read a thread?

Fack2 you either seem to not understand the way Titus is analyzing d1 or you're just willingly ignoring it but this lil tussle you two are having doesn't seem to be going anywhere favorable for you in my eyes

Really? Basically threatening?

You don't like it. Tough shit.

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

[JohnnyFarrar]

Oh shit fack caught me

@Max had you stated that 3-4 times then before I brought it up or we're you exaggerating to try to make my point seem uninformed? As for your explanation I just can't bring myself to assume scum is lost, well, ever, really.

[Huntress]

Maybe I wasn't clear before but I think it's scummy because she has struggled to come up with content to give. I don't think it's case where she's just lurking, I think suspect she can't come up with much which would indicate a scum struggling with the game.

I've replied to this already, but you apparently just ignored it. Is it just that you don't like my reads so you're trying to pretend they don't exist?

Vote: Roshar

I'm sticking with this for the moment because Roshar is still the stronger read.