Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[kelbris]

and we finally have a replacement for acryon, please welcome Massive to the game.

[Killthestory]

hi

[kelbris]

also, the previous VC stands since no votes have been changed.

[OceanWind]

Imperium's progression on SnarkySnowman's slot has been fairly bad this whole time, but 32 is really what tells the story there.

I don't understand this line of thought. Imperium seem to be experienced enough players that they wouldn't go out on a limb to derail a partner's lynch to push through ChurchOfMercy's. They'd know Snarky was getting lynched the following day anyways so why burn towncred just to delay a partner's lynch?

Furthermore, the tell I have for MagnaofIllusion is not specific to him as a player; it's specific to his playstyle which a few other players have. My go-to example is Red Coyote.

What is this specific tell? Cite examples of MagnaOfIllusion's pushes and posts that you found alignment-indicative. I don't care about any other game. In this game, what were these things? The game you played with RedCoyote is finished so it shouldn't be a problem explaining the similarities.

1. The tunneling is usually present, and hasn't been this game. His tone often comes across as flat even when he's saying he's ticked off at a player, but here he feels sincere.

2. When Radiant is scum, he is setting up a long-term game plan, I have seen it multiple times, and yet here that behavior is absent.

3. When RC is scum, he may take unusual stances, but they come with an agenda: getting a strong player mislynched with gusto is practically a signature move.

He's done all these things here though. He has tunneled SnarkySnowman. He set up a longer term plan in pushing other players upon a ChurchOfMercy townflip. He was setting up to push Imperium before I made a post calling him out on it. If that's not what you are talking about, what is it? How has the tunneling been absent? How has he not been setting up longer term plans?

Also, your reads haven't changed all that much since page one, why? You had Ollie as a townread on page one and nothing that he posted since then affected your read? Why are you townreading him anyways?

[Ranger]

What other way did you expect your “trust me post” to be viewed?

For the issue to be delayed until I would be able to explain.

The matter of a time frame didn't cross my mind.

This is ton on verbiage that rests solely on the foundation that you aren’t just lying about not knowing Xis died just to establish the post you made at 1159.

Yes. And? I said it was reason for me to be town. I hold by that as something I wouldn't have thought of doing as scum.

But you supposedly are the caliber of player who could certainly read the Mafia QT, look at the first post and say “Hey, I’m going to use the Mod’s flub up as a way to Town myself. Watch and laugh” to your buddies.

My scum record says otherwise. Every scum win of mine has been on the merit of either setup (being scum-sided) or my partners; all my losses are in games without these factors.

It's too early to tell though and I'm waiting to see those cases on Snarky and Imperium that'll likely give me a more accurate read.

Unfortunately, my priorities will be elsewhere for...a while. Not sure how long. But I'm devoting a lot of energy to a place not here, and I'm not certain how long this will take. At least a couple of days, maybe longer. So, full cases will have to wait.

I already gave some of the highlights in what I see in SnarkySnowman, but for Imperium, for a start, their posting simply hasn't felt town for the majority of the game. It was vaguely townish-looking initially, enough that I was giving them a pass and looking elsewhere, but it was not something where I could instantly view them and go, "town". Then, you get Imperium's strong push on CoM, over the push on SnarkySnowman. This in spite of how SnarkySnowman's predecessor was a scumread of theirs. Once SnarkySnowman came in, suddenly, without them stating a read change, they refuse to support the wagon despite earlier having driven the wagon. This was also the time where interest in lynching SnarkySnowman came. So, in short: they were pushing the slot when nobody was interested (distancing), but once interest formed, they went elsewhere.

This is best highlighted by the events of page 32: Imperium had claimed, "SnarkySnowman has no scumgames" as part of the SnarkySnowman defense. Yet, after finding one, they do absolutely nothing with it. In fact, 796 backtracks on the issue. In 797, the defense even morphs into "oh, we'd just rather lynch CoM" rather than "Oh, SnarkySnowman isn't scum".

There's more to the Imperium case than this, but this covers some of the main issues with them.

[Ranger]

They'd know Snarky was getting lynched the following day anyways so why burn towncred just to delay a partner's lynch?

I don't know.

Ask Nacho.

What is this specific tell? Cite examples of MagnaOfIllusion's pushes and posts that you found alignment-indicative.

It's not a "these factors are present in a town game" tell, so much as a "these factors are absent in a town game" tell. Ironically enough, Xisiqomelir actually covered this slightly: 561's section on him. The abrasiveness is present from someone with his playstyle more as scum; the enthusiasm and particular angle of attack is present from someone with his playstyle more as town. Instead of focusing on nitpicky details, instead of relying on technicalities, instead of being stubborn, instead of lacking a firm base, he is making logical conclusions and following through with that town eagerness.

This is Red Coyote's iso as scum. I realized MagnaofIllusion is not Red Coyote, but his playstyle is similar, so if he were scum I would expect to see those same markers I used to nail Red Coyote. I'm not seeing them this game, ergo, he's town.

How has the tunneling been absent? How has he not been setting up longer term plans?

This isn't a tunnel from RC.
You say his attack on SnarkySnowman is a tunnel. But...that's not how RadiantCowbells tunnels. THIS is an RC tunnel, on Titus. This is him setting up a longer-term plan. This is a typical game from him as scum.

It's an entirely different animal altogether.

Also, your reads haven't changed all that much since page one, why?

Because most of those reads have had no reason to change.

You had Ollie as a townread on page one and nothing that he posted since then affected your read?

Correct.

Why are you townreading him anyways?

I'd have to check out his iso to give the details, but from memory, I can tell you: his early posting was

incredibly

strong, and he might have been my strongest townread on page one in fact. His posting has become less frequent as the game has progressed, but unlike a player such as, say, Lowell, his recent posting is still as strong as his earlier posting. Maybe not necessarily in content, but in conveying alignment; his actions have maintained the existing townread.

[Ollie]

I agree that there is probably mafia among the low-content posters, specifically on Ollie. He was active at the beginning but then only shows up once every day or every two days and passive about the content he posts. It fits the mold of mafia who got townread early and don't want to shake up the gamestate.

Lowell also falls under this category though. Everytime I think "Lowell," I think "busy for the weekend," "will catchup later," "don't have internet" and so on. He too is on his own island with Ollie not minding anyone else or even analyzing how his old reads make sense today after Church's townflip.

It's hard to stay engaged when people I question don't respond to questioning, can't make much progress. I had enthusiasm for this day at the start of it & it ebbed away. We had a period with barely any posts which really saw me off, I did quite a few prod dodges in this period, like that Stevie Wonder vid.

Why was I your strongest town read before? It seems like whenever I'm not posting mega amounts I'm suddenly scummy. If there's one or two pushing people then I'm fine dipping in & out when I notice stuff. In fact I could point you to town games where I've mentioned that I play like this & not a mega active town leader when I've been scum read for it. It's funny, that is always the thing that gets brought up about me. In fact I guess I only lead when I have a vested interest in a mislynch these days going off my last game.

I don't know if you're talking about me as well in that last sentence but the Church flip informs part of my read on Lowell. You're definitely my strongest town read because of recent developments, I'll clear up why later.

[Ollie]

I'd have to check out his iso to give the details, but from memory, I can tell you: his early posting was

incredibly

strong, and he might have been my strongest townread on page one in fact. His posting has become less frequent as the game has progressed, but unlike a player such as, say, Lowell, his recent posting is still as strong as his earlier posting. Maybe not necessarily in content, but in conveying alignment; his actions have maintained the existing townread.

You might be town reading me, but I'm not town reading you. Jim was scummy as fuck. H_A did nothing. & you started the game off with loads of reads lists that looked like they were for show. Do you think Lowell is scum?

[Killthestory]

no ranger is obvtown like his reads are good

[Ollie]

Ranger, what's your take on this...

Several issues I have with Jim's posting. I can go more in-depth but a short summary:

• His reads don't mesh with his comments on the game. He has issues with MagnaOfIllusion's posts but puts him as a townread, then claims he mixed him up with Lowell. Hard townread on jmo16mla/Snarky is premature.
• Logical inconsistencies between several of his reads, and some reads such as the ones on KTthecreeper and Imperium involve jumping through too many hoops. Imperium is his strongest townread because KTthecreeper was verbose after Imperium said that newer mafia aren't verbose which is a ridiculous stretch.
  
  
• Having hard scumreads on Acryon and Church just through process of elimination despite not having confident townreads elsewhere.

heuristically_alone contributed nothing to the game in the time he was here. Most of his posting has been non-game relevant. I'll give him a bit more time to get caught up, but I'm very confident today's and tomorrow's lynches need to be Severa and heuristically_alone (in any order).

Yep, H_A has it all to prove. Jim was fine until he was questioned & then he just crumbles. This is a whole load of nonsense linking from his predecessor...

5. Why is only one of Ollie and Lowell mafia? Why are you leaning towards it being Ollie? Why does an Ollie scumflip clear Bellaphant?

Upon reading back, I realize I was mixing up people. That being said, I need to rearrange some of my list. It's Ollie and Magna, and the reason is because they were using the same strategy to approach the game, where it makes sense for one to be scum but not both. Ollie just stuck out more in my head, and the reason it clears bellaphant is that preliminary interaction between the two of them, Bellaphant's pestering about KT I believe it was? That looked a lot like Ollie catering his posts to what Bellaphant was asking.

Two townies can't be 'using the same strategy'? & what strategy do me & Magna have in common? In any case OceanWind was playing most like Magna so any strategy suspicion should fall on him before me. & this is supposed to be a clarification of what he said earlier, yet it's just a confusing mess.

[Ollie]

no ranger is obvtown like his reads are good

ISO Jim if you can be arsed.

[Killthestory]

if you can recall i had my vote on Jim for the better part of Day 2, so unless youre assuming i vote uniformed, then i have no need to iso Jim

[Killthestory]

uninformed*

[Ollie]

if you can recall i had my vote on Jim for the better part of Day 2, so unless youre assuming i vote uniformed, then i have no need to iso Jim

Ok so what's changed your mind on that slot?

[Ollie]

uninformed*

It's ok, I didn't think you voted dressed up like you were in the police or the army.

[OceanWind]

They'd know Snarky was getting lynched the following day anyways so why burn towncred just to delay a partner's lynch?

I don't know. Ask Nacho.

I'm asking you because you are one calling them mafia.

Instead of focusing on nitpicky details, instead of relying on technicalities, instead of being stubborn, instead of lacking a firm base, he is making logical conclusions and following through with that town eagerness.

Examples of where he did this?

This isn't a tunnel from RC.
You say his attack on SnarkySnowman is a tunnel. But...that's not how RadiantCowbells tunnels. THIS is an RC tunnel, on Titus.

I'm not going to read an ISO over two hundred posts. What's the sparknotes version?

his recent posting is still as strong as his earlier posting. Maybe not necessarily in content, but in conveying alignment; his actions have maintained the existing townread.

What did you like most about his recent posting?

---

It's hard to stay engaged when people I question don't respond to questioning, can't make much progress. I had enthusiasm for this day at the start of it & it ebbed away. We had a period with barely any posts which really saw me off, I did quite a few prod dodges in this period, like that Stevie Wonder vid.

Why was I your strongest town read before? It seems like whenever I'm not posting mega amounts I'm suddenly scummy. If there's one or two pushing people then I'm fine dipping in & out when I notice stuff. In fact I could point you to town games where I've mentioned that I play like this & not a mega active town leader when I've been scum read for it. It's funny, that is always the thing that gets brought up about me. In fact I guess I only lead when I have a vested interest in a mislynch these days going off my last game.

I don't know if you're talking about me as well in that last sentence but the Church flip informs part of my read on Lowell. You're definitely my strongest town read because of recent developments, I'll clear up why later.

I empathize with people not responding to questioning since the only people giving me substantial responses have been MagnaOfIllusion and Ranger. But I've still been posting trying to move the game forward. You and a bunch of others posting extremely sparsely is part of the reason this game stagnated. Several people have been posting and you haven't made any comments on their posts until your name was brought up. Stuff like Ranger replacing in, Radiant and Snarky tunneling each other, etc.

I started townreading you when you were pushing Nosferatu on D1. It was when you decided to ISO the entire game unprompted and post reads that that townread solidified. I find that town are much more likely to try and understand the game as a whole rather than push isolated reads without regard to the big picture.

I don't expect you to post "mega-amounts." I do expect you to post more than the bare minimum required to avoid being prodded. There is a difference between enthusiastically doing a great job and just barely meeting the requirements and your latest posting falls squarely into the latter. Can you link me to a post where someone incorrectly suspected you for posting too little?

You don't seem like you actually believe in your Lowell read. On the twentieth, you voted him. On the twenty-sixth, you justified your suspicion to Imperium when they questioned you. You are back today on the twenty-eighth responding to MagnaOfIllusion's accusation and asking why he didn't vote yet. If you were that confident in your read, I'd expect a stronger presence in the game, more engagement with people about Lowell, asking for our reads on Lowell, asking people for votes. You haven't done any of that. You just parked your vote there. Eight days in this day phase are up and we only have six more left. It seems like you are okay with time running out and then at deadline, you'd make a similar post to this and decide which of the lynch-wagons you are okay with. Rinse and repeat. I don't see your own mark being made on the game.

[Ollie]

if you can recall i had my vote on Jim for the better part of Day 2

wait wtf, you've been null/town on that slot all along, & you were town reading Jim?

[Killthestory]

if you can recall i had my vote on Jim for the better part of Day 2, so unless youre assuming i vote uniformed, then i have no need to iso Jim

Ok so what's changed your mind on that slot?

ranger and gut

[Killthestory]

if you can recall i had my vote on Jim for the better part of Day 2

wait wtf, you've been null/town on that slot all along, & you were town reading Jim?

gut

[Ranger]

Do you think Lowell is scum?

Yes.

He started the game alright, but his posting now, in contrast to yours, just looks like scum.

Ranger, what's your take on this...

I refuse to deal with my slot's content. If you have issue with it, vote me. If you want answers for it, tough. The slot's out of the game. I'm not answering for it. I'm only going to answer for my own actions.

I'm asking you because you are one calling them mafia.

I don't know Nacho well enough to tell you why he does something like that as scum. All I do know is that he does something like that as scum.

Examples of where he did this?

Some other time, but...it's everywhere in MagnaofIllusion's iso. The "ha!" mentality.

I'm not going to read an ISO over two hundred posts.

Skim it.

It's required reading.

No joke.

Required. reading.

Because it's RC, as a then-secret alt.
Like this game.

So, no, I don't have a summary. Just read that iso, and compare it to this game. It's not the same. It's not even close to the same.

What did you like most about his recent posting?

On just this page? 1281 is ridiculously good. I like his paranoia in 1282. His interaction with Killthestory furthering it in 1285. The tone in 1289. All of these make me think Ollie is town.

[OceanWind]

On just this page? 1281 is ridiculously good. I like his paranoia in 1282. His interaction with Killthestory furthering it in 1285. The tone in 1289. All of these make me think Ollie is town.

No, not on this page. You said in your Post 1280 that his posts have shown a town alignment. How?

[OceanWind]

But even in the links you gave, I don't see how they are alignment-indicative.

1282 - He suspects you for posting readslists.
1285 - He tells Killthestory to ISO Jim.
1289 - He cracks a joke about uniforms that has nothing to do with the game. What do you mean "tone?" That's one of those words I see being thrown around that don't mean anything.

[RadiantCowbells]

Town!RC play is about me
Scum!RC play is about manipulating other people.

[Ollie]

I empathize with people not responding to questioning since the only people giving me substantial responses have been MagnaOfIllusion and Ranger. But I've still been posting trying to move the game forward. You and a bunch of others posting extremely sparsely is part of the reason this game stagnated. Several people have been posting and you haven't made any comments on their posts until your name was brought up. Stuff like Ranger replacing in, Radiant and Snarky tunneling each other, etc.

I started townreading you when you were pushing Nosferatu on D1. It was when you decided to ISO the entire game unprompted and post reads that that townread solidified. I find that town are much more likely to try and understand the game as a whole rather than push isolated reads without regard to the big picture.

I don't expect you to post "mega-amounts." I do expect you to post more than the bare minimum required to avoid being prodded. There is a difference between enthusiastically doing a great job and just barely meeting the requirements and your latest posting falls squarely into the latter. Can you link me to a post where someone incorrectly suspected you for posting too little?

You don't seem like you actually believe in your Lowell read. On the twentieth, you voted him. On the twenty-sixth, you justified your suspicion to Imperium when they questioned you. You are back today on the twenty-eighth responding to MagnaOfIllusion's accusation and asking why he didn't vote yet. If you were that confident in your read, I'd expect a stronger presence in the game, more engagement with people about Lowell, asking for our reads on Lowell, asking people for votes. You haven't done any of that. You just parked your vote there. Eight days in this day phase are up and we only have six more left. It seems like you are okay with time running out and then at deadline, you'd make a similar post to this and decide which of the lynch-wagons you are okay with. Rinse and repeat. I don't see your own mark being made on the game.

I'm not part of the reason this game stagnated, it stagnated & then I lost motivation. I remember refreshing the same page throughout one day with no new posts. So it's unfair to accuse me of that. It winds me up when people don't address my concerns about them, am I just gonna be a massive hypocrite & not do that myself? Also I want to be town read. I've gone into why before in this very game: The last game I played on here as town, & I've never been mislynched before, I'm proud of that. I considered it an advancement in my mafiascum town game that I was getting widely town read, has that made me complacent? Yeah. But I saw you & MoI as my two attack dogs, maybe I could have an easy town game this time round.

So what I was doing on day 1 was, skimming posts for mentions of me, pushing people from things I'd noticed, & then making scum lists by ISoing everyone. & those lists were keeping my interest & making me feel confident in my reads. The problem I've had with coming up with a new list is... Towards the end of day 1, Nos my strongest scum read started looking town, I just started thinking Bella was a terrible player, & the only scum read I had left was Lowell. It then seemed like a fuckin waste of time to do another til there was more to go on. I was struggling to get back into the game at the end of day 1 because of this (& the fact I wasn't scum reading any of the leading wagons). I looked at the 3 wagons to try & get into the game again as it worked with my lists. It's only now that I think it'll be worth ISOing everyone again, because I reckon I have 3 decent scum reads, one maybe, & two town reads. But I'll do a list tomorrow & make sure.

I'm more than happy to link you to a few posts doing that. I'll search for them tomorrow.

I mean I can't rip Lowell apart cos he's never around, but I've made an outstanding case against him. It's not like people's reactions haven't been informing my reads. Killthestory has picked up on it. He's obviously town. Imperium defending Lowell was probably town if obviously very misguided, too blatant a defence for them to be scum together, but that is a typical stance toward Lowell. Far too much indifference to overtly scummy behaviour. I'll respond to some of the rest of that at a later date cos... reasons. But as for you expecting a stronger presence in the game, I had a strong presence in the game, then Lowell buggered off, Snarky never responded to me when I was tryna get a handle on him vs Severa (RC) & the day got inactive as fuck. How strong is my presence gonna be if I've lost interest? You obviously weren't paying attention when I said that. My interest has a direct correlation with my presence.

[Ollie]

Ranger, what's your take on this...

I refuse to deal with my slot's content. If you have issue with it, vote me. If you want answers for it, tough. The slot's out of the game. I'm not answering for it. I'm only going to answer for my own actions.

What did you like most about his recent posting?

On just this page? 1281 is ridiculously good. I like his paranoia in 1282. His interaction with Killthestory furthering it in 1285. The tone in 1289. All of these make me think Ollie is town.

I have an issue with you not even giving an opinion on it, woulda at least expected you to write Jim off as a shit player, but maybe I have a point eh. & I can't vote for two people. But why take that tone? Far too defensive.

& wow you're really reaching for reasons to town read me here. It's almost like you put no genuine thought into your read on me & you're now just scrambling for reasons...