Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[massive]

So massive why don't you elaborate on the fact why that set of quotes made you think Snarky was scum. That would be wonderful.

Trying to paint yourself as "right to stay away from the CoM wagon" directly contradicts a stated intent to hammer. Snarky was trying to change the narrative around his lack of participation on the CoM wagon.

[Virtue]

Virtue why the change from Masquerade to Nos?

I've no idea what to make of the Lowell/Masquerade slot now.

When I came in, that wasn't the time to force a vote for sorting or contribution. The Lowell slot was still scummy as well and I could get behind it given the circumstances.

What's the deal with Ranger? I think that Imperium has been buddied to the point where they need a hard reset. I don't like the perpetual jumping in this game so haphazardly at the start, hyper confident and then wrong. This strongly suggests scum are aggressive and drowning out contrary opinions. I strongly don't think Ranger is scum based on game state.

[OceanWind]

@Imperium

– Again you were my number 1 Town read going into Night 2 and the kill doesn’t change that. I need you to talk to me and give me your reads on Ocean and Kill. And with some whys would be great. I have some things I think I am seeing but want confirmation from an outside source.

Why are Imperium your number one townread? You found it suspicious that I voted Snarky but you didn't find Imperium's vote there suspect at all when a good part of their reasoning amounted to sheeping Radiant?

I also want to hear what things are that you seeing from me and Killthestory.

[kelbris]

VC 3.02

Virtue (0): none
Ranger (3) [L-3]: OceanWind, MagnaofIllusion, Ollie
MagnaofIllusion (0): none
Imperium (0): none
Killthestory (0): none
Masquerade (0): none
Nosferatu (1): Virtue
Massive (0): none
OceanWind (0): none
Ollie (0): none
not voting: Ranger, Imperium, killthestory, Masquerade, Nosferatu, Massive,
With 10 players alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch.
day 3 has begun, it will end in (expired on 2016-05-19 01:10:00)

[Ranger]

How did it not match your experience with him as town?

This was SnarkySnowman as town. There was strong thoughts present the whole game.
This was an earlier SnarkySnowman towngame. Less posts, but just as much content as the above link. Strong thoughts.
This was SnarkySnowman as a jester. He was playing more town than scum that game.

Contrast with Open 632 and with Diffusion of Power.
This game looked like the latter two, not the above few. There wasn't the same strong posting, there wasn't the same strong thoughts.

I and they argued the same point - that it was dumb to suspect them of going out of their way to defend a partner.

That wasn't one of the points they actually defended themselves against sufficiently, actually. It was more the littler stuff elsewhere. How they talked to me, how they addressed me, where they gave their views, and how they saw it. I'm in no mood to manually re-iso them to find the points they did which were convincing. But while I still think some of the points I made were technically correct, I no longer believe the points indicate they are scum.

What do you mean "Imperium's reach out?"

Basically the majority of the latter half of D2 was them reaching out. RadiantCowbells was in fact the main target player. He was not the only one. I saw hints of an olive branch put out in my direction in spite of their scumread on my slot, for instance.

As much as he may be your favorite player, his pouting about how he's the best and everyone should follow him for no reason while not communicating with anyone else wasn't helping the town wincon.

Given SnarkySnowman flipped town, sure, but if SnarkySnowman had flipped scum, that would be a different story altogether. He was wrong. It happens. That's no excuse to justify bashing a player, least of all one who is likely retiring from playing anyway (and maybe in part from comments like that).

I found yours suspicious because your scumread on Snarky seemed to exist purely because that's the lynch Radiant wanted to push.

Okay, homework time. I have 11 officially completed scum games. Find one where I was sheeping someone else on the lynch. They're all listed conveniently on my wiki. I'll wait.

"Sheeping" the push of someone else is a very strong,

very

prominent, element of my town game. A lot of my readslists are significantly impacted by points other players make. If they make a point I strongly agree with, I'm more likely to townread them. If they make a point I haven't thought of, I may or may not townread them, but I'll look at their point, realize it was valid, and take it into account with my reads, moving people up/down accordingly. RadiantCowbells is a player I can do this quite well with because I know his accuracy is fairly high. He is not the only player I can do this for, and even in this game he is not the only player I have done it for. I can't instantly remember another player, because this is a passive thing I automatically do on instinct every game without even thinking about it, but it's there.

What's the difference between "suspect" and "list of people you are looking at?"

I suspect you. I suspect Lowell. I suspect Virtue. I have absolutely zero confidence in a scumteam of that composition. I am looking at a few extra players, namely, reconsidering my Ollie townread (oh, this is actually an example of the above: I am reconsidering the Ollie townread because of

things you have said

), though also taking another look at acryon/massive. I am looking at people who could be scum. I hold suspicion as of this moment on those three names primarily.
It goes like this:
{acryon/massive}
{Ollie}
{OceanWind, Virtue, Lowell}.
I am going to look at all names.

This should have taken me five seconds to explain in one sentence because this is not a hard concept to grasp.

Why aren't you looking at MagnaOfIllusion? Give me something more than "his playstyle is similar to RedCoyote's" and a link to RedCoyote's ISO as mafia. Actual, concrete reasons why you are reading MagnaOfIllusion as town.

Know how, as of now, I can link to SnarkySnowman's games which made me scumread him?
Can't do the same for MagnaofIllusion. The "about a week" rule still applies there.

Did I do something in between these two posts to make you go, "Oh yeah, massive is scum!"

No.
I am looking at you.
I see you as possible scum.
I don't think you are scum.

I don't have strong opinions on anyone (the only one I was sure that's town was RC fyi) I still have about half the thread to read up on, and when I'm done with that I plan to iso a handful of players as I can only focus on so much at one time. Not sure who yet but Ranger will be one of those as she's getting heat rn.

Very much thinking the Lowell scumread was right for ^this by the way.

[Masquerade]

Why do most of you make such huge posts?

[OceanWind]

This was SnarkySnowman as town. There was strong thoughts present the whole game.
This was an earlier SnarkySnowman towngame. Less posts, but just as much content as the above link. Strong thoughts.
This was SnarkySnowman as a jester. He was playing more town than scum that game.

Contrast with Open 632 and with Diffusion of Power.
This game looked like the latter two, not the above few. There wasn't the same strong posting, there wasn't the same strong thoughts.

In all his games, most of his posts are one-liners with a couple of wall posts. That remained true no matter what his alignment was. I'm not seeing this difference that you are.

But this actually contradicts what you said before about how his case on Severa was more indicative of his play as mafia. Does he put in more effort as town or mafia?

As much as he may be your favorite player, his pouting about how he's the best and everyone should follow him for no reason while not communicating with anyone else wasn't helping the town wincon.

Given SnarkySnowman flipped town, sure, but if SnarkySnowman had flipped scum, that would be a different story altogether. He was wrong. It happens. That's no excuse to justify bashing a player, least of all one who is likely retiring from playing anyway (and maybe in part from comments like that).

I'm not bashing him. I think that's a fair assessment of his play this game. He ignored most questions directed at him and refused to collaborate or even provide reads on anyone until he got the lynch he wanted. If you had more integrity, you'd be calling him out on his behavior rather than enabling him.

That's a small part of why I suspect you - you replace in as mafia and see your friend (who is town) pushing another townie with everything he's got. Best way to get townread from him is to push alongside him.

I have 11 officially completed scum games. Find one where I was sheeping someone else on the lynch.

They're all listed conveniently on my wiki. I'll wait.

"Sheeping" the push of someone else is a very strong,

very

prominent, element of my town game.

A lot of my readslists are significantly impacted by points other players make. If they make a point I strongly agree with, I'm more likely to townread them. If they make a point I haven't thought of, I may or may not townread them, but I'll look at their point, realize it was valid, and take it into account with my reads, moving people up/down accordingly. RadiantCowbells is a player I can do this quite well with because I know his accuracy is fairly high. He is not the only player I can do this for, and even in this game he is not the only player I have done it for. I can't instantly remember another player, because this is a passive thing I automatically do on instinct every game without even thinking about it, but it's there.

The two bolded statements sound like you are saying that you sheep as town but don't sheep as mafia. If that's true and you know it, you can potentially change it. But I have a hard time believing that reading you is so simple as just checking whether you sheeped or not and figuring out your alignment from there.

reconsidering my Ollie townread (oh, this is actually an example of the above: I am reconsidering the Ollie townread because of

things you have said

)

If you suspect me, why are you putting weight into things I've said about Ollie?

[OceanWind]

Why do most of you make such huge posts?

Why do people that dislike reading pursue mafia as a hobby?

(Personally, I don't mind walls of text. What irritates me is contentless spam posts that don't add anything to the game and inflate thread count. I think this game has been on the lower end of that, thankfully.)

You said from your day one reading that Jim and RadiantCowbells were town. 1. Can you elaborate on your read on Jim? 2. At what point did you start reading Radiant as town (before or after the alt reveal)?

[Killthestory]

im so good at this game

[Masquerade]

I love reading actually, but I just had to read up on 65 pages of a game which consist for a big part of long walls. And they don't do anything for me. I suck at catching up. Also, I started reading Day 2 when I replaced in, when Night started I began reading from the start so the reads I posted before nightfall were all based on Day 2.

I don't remember exactly what it was that made me townread Jim, but Alone pinged me with a post and my gut is telling me Ranger is scum so I'm going to look into that slot in a bit and elaborate on that later.
It wasn't all that hard to see Severa was RC, but that could be hindsight because I had obviously already seen the playerlist. He was also obvtown. So I'm also going to take a harder look at the people that voted him.
I don't have a huge problem with the Snarky-lynch. I agreed with the reasons for scumreading him and I do find him hard to read. I usually scumread him, regardless of his alignment. And ongoing reasons.

If I had to name 3 suspects rn it would be Ranger, Massive (Acryon doesn't PL as town) and Virtue. Ranger and Massive I'm quite confident in rn, Virtue not so much but it's all still superficial. I'll dig into iso's later but I'm gonna be busy next few days with mother's day preps and work so time will be sparse.

[kelbris]

Just so everyone knows, I don't know if I will be online to do a VC tomorrow & on Sunday, tomorrow I will be going to a comic convention and Sunday is mother's day.

[Ranger]

So. Now that it's over. This was MagnaofIllusion's scum game. I was watching it since the beginning.
What OceanWind was asking for.

His play here is completely and entirely different. I'm a bit busy so I can't show the highlights at this very moment.
But...MagnaofIllusion that game displayed the same play as Red Coyote.
MagnaofIllusion this game is displaying none of those same behaviors.

[Ranger]

I'm not seeing this difference that you are.

Well SnarkySnowman flipped town so maybe the difference wasn't what I thought, but I saw the difference at the time.

But this actually contradicts what you said before about how his case on Severa was more indicative of his play as mafia. Does he put in more effort as town or mafia?

The funny thing is, SnarkySnowman has stronger posting/pushing as town but more in his posting as scum, at least that's what I saw.

I think that's a fair assessment of his play this game.

And I think you're not exactly wrong for this game specifically, but are being overly harsh to the dead guy conveniently just after he's dead.

Best way to get townread from him is to push alongside him.

We're talking RC here.

Hell

no. That'd do nothing of the sort. He'd null-read me in all likelihood.

The two bolded statements sound like you are saying that you sheep as town but don't sheep as mafia.

11 (well, 12 now!) games is a very strong record saying this, yes. It's often-present in my town game. It was an accusation made against me in Open 612, first game on-site. It was an accusation made against me in Micro 537, second game on-site. It was an accusation in Mini 1730, third game on-site. It was an accusation in Blitz 2. Skipping to more recent examples, it was what got me lynched in Micro 602. (Ironic, considering I

started

the wagon, but the accusation of sheeping was made all the same.) It was an accusation made in Micro 599. You get the picture. It is never present in my scum game. Not once, out of twelve games. At least, not sheeping day actions. (I've sheeped my scumbuddies every single time during the night.)

So yes. I stand by my statement.

If that's true and you know it, you can potentially change it.

This argument can be made of literally any aspect of my play. It also, by its very nature, is a self-defeating argument, because by this train of logic, the action (which you were accusing me of being scum-motivated in making) cannot be scum. It can only be null if your own argument holds: it's a trait I display as town, but oh, I know about it so maybe I'd do it as scum, so it can't be alignment indicative, so...

...Why the HELL are you treating it like it is?

If you suspect me, why are you putting weight into things I've said about Ollie?

Newsflash: I'm sometimes wrong in my suspicions, and other players are sometimes right. I was wrong on SnarkySnowman. So, yes. When a player makes a valid point, and you are in fact a player who has indeed made valid points, I listen. Alignment is irrelevant to this. Masquerade could make a good point, Ollie could make a good point, massive could make a good point, Virtue could make a good point. If they do, I consider all aspects of it: could they be town making this point, or are they scum making a good point? If their point is good, does it change any of my reads on other players? This is something I am constantly doing. I did it for over five years prior to joining mafiascum, and I still do it after joining.

Frankly...how can any player who calls themselves experienced

not

do it?

[Nosferatu]

can't think of a reason to not VOTE: Virtue :/

[Masquerade]

Just read Bella/Virtue and I don;t believe they're scum with Massive and I'm pretty confident that slot is scum so Virtue can be town for now.
Might have some free time later to do another iso. Also, got transferred back to box office so might be able to read more tonight.

[massive]

Wait. You think I'm scum and you're willing to forgive other players based on associatives with my slot? Can you unpack that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD I’ll be V/LA from 5pm EDT today until Monday morning EDT for my usual weekend family duties.

At this point Nosferatu is rapidly becoming a viable suspect for me with posts like 1588. He’s cruised through two days basically sidelining it.

Why are Imperium your number one townread? You found it suspicious that I voted Snarky but you didn't find Imperium's vote there suspect at all when a good part of their reasoning amounted to sheeping Radiant?

I also want to hear what things are that you seeing from me and Killthestory.

Is your name Imperium? I didn’t think so. I’m waiting to hear from my Town read. If you don’t like waiting I don’t know what to tell you – maybe work on your patience.

I've no idea what to make of the Lowell/Masquerade slot now.

Why does Lowell’s replacement make you move away from your read on Lowell? I ask because a slot being replaced doesn’t wipe the role PM away. If Lowell was scummy (and you were very convinced he was) the slot should still be scummy in your mind for that prior behavior.

Trying to paint yourself as "right to stay away from the CoM wagon" directly contradicts a stated intent to hammer. Snarky was trying to change the narrative around his lack of participation on the CoM wagon.

Ok with this in mind I’d like your read on Killthestory. He initially help form the wagon and then jumped off to sideline his vote around here and there. He multiple times proclaims Church to be a bad lynch or Town. But he ends up going back to Church with such empty posts as 745.

Let’s move to day 2. Quotes surrounding the Snarky wagon –

I have a 100% read rate on Snarky in all my finished games, and I can safely say he isn't scum here.

snarky is obvtowning this game.

definitely not his scumgame lol

*

jmo16mla[/s] SnarkySnowman - town

no s t o p snarky isnt scum either stop

why are you all so bad this is clear to me now

but I wanna hammer ; ) ) )

VOTE: Snarky

[Ollie]

Why does Lowell’s replacement make you move away from your read on Lowell? I ask because a slot being replaced doesn’t wipe the role PM away. If Lowell was scummy (and you were very convinced he was) the slot should still be scummy in your mind for that prior behavior.

I did have a moment of doubt but that slot still looks like scum from Lowell & Masquerade is just treading water & pushing no one. My comment was about my befuddlement with that slot in relation to this comment...

I forget everything that's happening in this game. But I'm here. Will think about it, then vote haphazardly.

I looked back & saw that to miss that he'd been force replaced he would have had to have not read the thread for at least 5 days, no new posts for 2 days so no excuse not to catch up. Then he comes in with his typical prod dodge & comment over events that had occurred only in the last page or so. How could you hope to be any help as a townie not even reading the thread? & what do you get from just staying in a game you've barely had any involvement in? Scummy as hell. & then I reasoned with myself; Would he make it so obvious that he hadn't read it if he was scum? No care taken there whatsoever.

[Ollie]

But actually... no interest in reading the game or engaging with anyone, but still wants to hydra...

well GL masq.... let me know if you need a hydra partner...

Does anyone have any knowledge of if Lowell prefers being town or scum?

[Ollie]

can't think of a reason to not VOTE: Virtue :/

Why are you voting for him?

[Virtue]

VOTE: Nosferatu

Let's fight this out.

T: Imp, Ranger,Ocean, Magna, Ollie

can't think of a reason to not VOTE: Virtue :/

Can you think of a reason to scumhunt? Your read on Masquerade you said was stale. You do zilch yo interact with them.In fact, all you have done is a snide VCA comment?

[Imperium]

This head is really super busy right now. I've got three shows this weekend, finals week is next week and I have a ton of grading to finish and prepare for summer school, Chicago Meet and my mom visiting which all follow the next week. We won't need to go v/la as a whole, except for Chicago Meet probably which affects Nacho too. I will be around, just here and there as I have time and/or am taking breaks from grading and cleaning.

I only got to page three on my reread of day one and I want to get that done too in the meantime. I don't understand the night kills and there are a few things I want to think out. I've sort of briefly skimmed the day posts, and Virtue is at least right about one thing, and that's that we need to do a hard reset. I know there are other questions/comments out to us and I'll get to them as I catch up properly on the end of day yesterday and today.

[Masquerade]

Not slow enough to read up at work sadly. Gonna have to wait. it is however slow enough to keep up with new posts so if anyone wants to talk, shoot.

[Killthestory]

LOL MoI you simply cannot pull votes onto me. stop trying

[Ranger]

Wait. You think I'm scum and you're willing to forgive other players based on associatives with my slot? Can you unpack that?

Very, very, VERY valid point on Masquerade.

Pretty sure I'm voting there as soon as I do a reread.

At this point Nosferatu is rapidly becoming a viable suspect for me with posts like 1588.

Honestly I kind-of took that comment as a parody on Titus VCA. Today

is

D3 (the day Titus is supposed to do VCA), but not having a scum flip is her stated excuse for not doing it.

I don't understand the night kills and there are a few things I want to think out.

Well I probably don't need to tell you this, but when you don't understand the nightkills...

Virtue is at least right about one thing, and that's that we need to do a hard reset.

This is, in fact,

precisely

what should be done, because not understanding the nightkills usually means huge assumptions about scumteams are inherently wrong. An RC nightkill doesn't particularly shatter my worldview, but if it did, that's what I'd be doing.