Mini 1800 - Game Over

[Sickofit1138]

Also: don't self hammer (null)

i told you i wouldn't and im working on my town game.

[Persivul]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=66642

This game is now abandoned and can be cited. Check sick's play. He was town, but when pressured was very defensive and OMGUSsy. He even self-hammered as town. Compare that to this game where he was scum:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=66158

In that one he kept his cool except for a single post.

In this game he's in between those two. It reads to me closer to the first, and he said unprompted by me that he was toning down his style. So, I have him as town for now.

[Persivul]

That puts persivul at

L-2

. Tread carefully people.

LAMIST

[Persivul]

You're voting me Saru. You could unvote yourself. OTOH, if you think I'm scum, you would want me at L-1. But, you take the middle road - keep your vote on me, but instead of encouraging the wagon, you tell people to tread carefully.

[qubixes]

That puts persivul at

L-2

. Tread carefully people.

Can I deduce from this that your read on Persivul isn't very strong?

Got ninja'd

[Sickofit1138]

{Karnos}
{Chumba, Dierfire}
{Everyone else}
{Mecha, Species}
{Percy}

[Saru]

That puts persivul at

L-2

. Tread carefully people.

LAMIST

This is not LAMIST because as I've stated previously, I wanted to see more out of you. Perhaps an answer to Sick about your contradiction, which you have yet to answer about. Or why you think my reasoning for voting you is wrong. In that sense, I'm basically telling people to wait for you to defend yourself before some silly little goose puts you at L-1 or even worse, hammers. Everyone deserves a defense, regardless of their scumminess. Hopefully you get to it.

@qubixes - read above.

My read on Persivul is still very strong, but Kappy is a close second at this point. Persivul, if you haven't already, can you give me your thoughts/tells on the people who are voting for you? Same question to Kappy, who has yet to answer.

[Saru]

Also, if you were put at L-1, I would unvote you until you did defend yourself.

[qubixes]

@Persivul: What is your read on kappy now?

I reread kappy's ISO before he made his big post, and I think it is actually more likely to be coming from town. Mostly based on tone and some points he makes that make me think he is genuinely scumhunting.

I'll look through my list of suspects tonight (or weekend).

[qubixes]

Also, if you were put at L-1, I would unvote you until you did defend yourself.

@Saru: I can only find your/the contradiction argument as your reason to suspect persivul. Is there anything else?

[Persivul]

This is not LAMIST because as I've stated previously, I wanted to see more out of you.

First, I have 44 posts, you have 15 - and you want more out of

me

?

Second, pressure tends to get information out of people. So, you urging caution rather than an L-1 is indeed LAMIST, and goes against your stated desire of getting more out of me.

Perhaps an answer to Sick about your contradiction, which you have yet to answer about.

I addressed it some time ago:

he's not hurting town either though.

Yes, trying to force a 1v1 early on D1 hurts town.

If anyone is hurting town atm it's the people who is making a mountain out of a molehill.

did you address your own contradiction yet? I haven't seen it if you did.

People push to sort. For me, the issue wasn't his contradiction, it was how he would react to it. But, I couldn't say that at the time, as it would affect his reaction.

[Persivul]

Also, if you were put at L-1, I would unvote you until you did defend yourself.

Why? A quickhammer would likely give valuable information.

[Persivul]

@Persivul: What is your read on kappy now?

I reread kappy's ISO before he made his big post, and I think it is actually more likely to be coming from town. Mostly based on tone and some points he makes that make me think he is genuinely scumhunting.

I'll look through my list of suspects tonight (or weekend).

Kappy ISO:

First 14 posts are just screwing around and prolonging RVS
65 - theory
103 - "No strong reads atm," but gives a bare reads list anyway. Scum have incentive to do this because lists are generally seen as towny. As scum I've advised buddies who were in trouble to just put up a reads list, and it frequently works.
181 - reads list with some reasoning. Only thing slightly controversial was putting me in town. Most people are in null. Two scum reads are safe: several people were suspicious of sick, species wasn't very active.
192 - "Looked it up myself. it's true!" and sheeping on karnos is bad. I asked him what he had looked up, and he said he had just verified the one quote I gave. If he were really scum hunting he should have checked several games, searching for variants of lurk and hide. Chumba did just that, saying in 204 "I was searching for lurking and hiding in his iso." Chumba's slot went up a notch for that.
201 - unwillingness to change read after karnos makes a good response
235 and 236 - still trying to push me v. sick when, from my POV at least, that's over.

Also, a number of people have expressed an opinion on him, so the flip would be informative.

So, how do you come up with a town read?

[Saru]

This is not LAMIST because as I've stated previously, I wanted to see more out of you.

First, I have 44 posts, you have 15 - and you want more out of

me

?

lmfao, so apparently your 44 posts were ALL ABOUT you replying to Sick and his contradiction? No. When I say I wanted to see more out of you, I meant on that issue. You've repeatedly refuse to answer it, even up to this point. Noted.

Second, pressure tends to get information out of people. So, you urging caution rather than an L-1 is indeed LAMIST, and goes against your stated desire of getting more out of me.

No, no, and no. This is BS on so many levels. I've seen people lose their shit and even claim on L-2 because they felt so under pressure from being in that position. L-1 is stupid to advocate for when you're waiting on someone to simply defend them-self or answer certain questions. *hint**hint* L-1 makes it so that someone can hammer before a defense is made, I've seen it happen countless times before. Not looking for the same thing here. L-2 is more than adequate enough for pressure in my eyes, especially when I was not looking for a claim, just a defense.

Perhaps an answer to Sick about your contradiction, which you have yet to answer about.

I addressed it some time ago:

he's not hurting town either though.

Yes, trying to force a 1v1 early on D1 hurts town.

If anyone is hurting town atm it's the people who is making a mountain out of a molehill.

did you address your own contradiction yet? I haven't seen it if you did.

People push to sort. For me, the issue wasn't his contradiction, it was how he would react to it. But, I couldn't say that at the time, as it would affect his reaction.

Wtf is this??? You don't answer the question being asked. There is no answer here. Literally. Please bold me for the answer, cause I'm either blind or you're just making stuff up now. I'm gonna go with the latter. Chumba clearly asked you about your own contradiction, and you answer her by talking about Sick's contradiction. What??

My responses are in

bold

.

As for your quickhammer suggestion, it shows that you clearly didn't read/understand why I would unvote you at L-1. As previously stated, I would have waited for a defense. At this point, if this is your defense against my vote, it's pretty damn bad. You never address my main point for voting you. Instead, you give me some irrelevant quote with a non-answer. And to answer qubixes, sort of. My suspicion on him was built from the contradiction argument by Sick, and so my vote was put to get a reaction/defense out of Persivul. It's basically the same thing that I did to Sick with his own contradiction. The difference here is that while I found Sick's defense good enough for me to unvote him, Persivul hasn't convinced me in the same way. If you read my responses above, you can see why I'm not convinced.

[Saru]

Also, just to note, after that horrible defense of yours, I actually wouldn't unvote at L-1 at this point.

[Persivul]

Explain what my supposed contradiction is and ask a question. I'm happy to answer. I just don't know what you're asking at this point, and partially wonder if you even know yourself.

[Persivul]

You're not helping town by forcing yourself to be the center of attention. You should know that.

he's not hurting town either though. If anyone is hurting town atm it's the people who is making a mountain out of a molehill.

did you address your own contradiction yet? I haven't seen it if you did.

Oh my god thank you.

Same to you - what exactly is my contradiction, and what specific question(s) are you asking?

[Saru]

Actually Percivuls general misunderstanding and not reading the thread spells s-c-u-m-m-y to me at least

You have that backwards. People tend to be more careful as scum than as town.

I just picked up on this.
Persivul according to this reasoning I would be town.

You are only using objective tells when they suit your case.
You reasoning is not solid and therefore you are my biggest scum read.

@Percy

Address this plz instead of stayin on my "contradictory posts".

This. What do you make of your reasoning of "people tend to be more careful as scum than as town" being used by Sick to point out that through this line of reasoning, that would make him town in your eyes. And while I understand you switched your vote off Sick and made him a townread, it was way after that post. During that post, you still were voting for him and pushing him on his posts.

Just to clarify, its not the contradiction that bothers me so much. It's your reaction to my(and others) asking about it when it first came up. The fact that you repeatedly ignored those questions seemed as if you were dodging a potential slip.

Like I said, I did the same exact thing with Sick, and he had absolutely no problem with clarifying the confusion on his wagon contradiction. You and I both were on Sick in the start to get a reaction out of him, and then base our reads off of that. We both pretty much townread him. In that same sense, I was on you to get a reaction out of you, and the one I got(or lack of) was disturbing, to say the least. You could just be horribly aloof, but it would have to be extremely aloof for you to miss the question posed to you a million times by myself and others in the start.

[Sickofit1138]

People push to sort. For me, the issue wasn't his contradiction, it was how he would react to it. But, I couldn't say that at the time, as it would affect his reaction.

im not sure if ibelieve this.... youre saying that you purposely contradicted yourself?
Were not talking about my contradiction... ive explained it already, we're talking about yours.

i might understand what you were saying if you posted after you were done pushing on me.
my head hurts....

[Saru]

he's not hurting town either though.

Yes, trying to force a 1v1 early on D1 hurts town.

If anyone is hurting town atm it's the people who is making a mountain out of a molehill.

did you address your own contradiction yet?

I haven't seen it if you did.

People push to sort.

For me, the issue wasn't his contradiction, it was how he would react to it. But, I couldn't say that at the time, as it would affect his reaction.

Let me ask, Persivul, is the bold part of Chumba's question being answered by the bold part in your post?

[Persivul]

This. What do you make of your reasoning of "people tend to be more careful as scum than as town" being used by Sick to point out that through this line of reasoning, that would make him town in your eyes.

Already answered - I was pushing him for a reaction, as I had recent experience with town!sick under pressure on D1. The contradiction itself wasn't a big deal.

And while I understand you switched your vote off Sick and made him a townread, it was way after that post. During that post, you still were voting for him and pushing him on his posts.

Yes, as he was protesting to an extent, but wasn't flipping out the way I'd seen him do as town. BUT, in 139 in a reply to karnos, he said he was "toning it down from that game." In 144-145 I confirmed it was the game I was using as his town meta, so the less strident response made sense, and I unvoted him.

Just to clarify, its not the contradiction that bothers me so much. It's your reaction to my(and others) asking about it when it first came up. The fact that you repeatedly ignored those questions seemed as if you were dodging a potential slip.

A potential slip? WTF, look to motivations, not potential slips. In 150 I said his reaction matched his town meta and unvoted him. In 151 I acknowledged that sick's contradiction was a weak reason to push, and noted that early on D1 weal reasons are all you have. THe town motivations for my course of action is evident. What is the scum motivation?

Why did I go out of my way to clear a person who I know to be an easy D1 mislynch target? Look to our last game together - he was a total VI, to the point of self hammering.

Like I said, I did the same exact thing with Sick, and he had absolutely no problem with clarifying the confusion on his wagon contradiction. You and I both were on Sick in the start to get a reaction out of him, and then base our reads off of that. We both pretty much townread him. In that same sense, I was on you to get a reaction out of you, and the one I got(or lack of) was disturbing, to say the least. You could just be horribly aloof, but it would have to be extremely aloof for you to miss the question posed to you a million times by myself and others in the start.

Yes, I tend to be aloof regarding questions that shouldn't be asked because the answer is already evident. IOW, I tend to play for the benefit of the good players, and only take the time to defend against bad reasoning when really necessary, as now.

[Persivul]

he's not hurting town either though.

Yes, trying to force a 1v1 early on D1 hurts town.

If anyone is hurting town atm it's the people who is making a mountain out of a molehill.

did you address your own contradiction yet?

I haven't seen it if you did.

People push to sort.

For me, the issue wasn't his contradiction, it was how he would react to it. But, I couldn't say that at the time, as it would affect his reaction.

Let me ask, Persivul, is the bold part of Chumba's question being answered by the bold part in your post?

Yes, obviously.

[Saru]

Funny how you say the answer is "already evident" but by actually reading the answer(that was bold) to the question presented(that was also bold), it doesn't line up as a logical answer at all.

Chumba - "did you address

YOUR OWN

contradiction yet?"
Persivul - "For me, the issue wasn't

HIS

contradiction..."

Do you seriously expect me to believe that you were answering the question? Let's be real here. That makes no sense.

As for your responses to me in post 270, I agree with your actions toward Sick being just fine. I did the same thing you did in that regard. That's not why I'm voting you though. So not sure why you need to tell me what you did as I've already said I understand and that it makes sense.

Still not convinced by your argument that the answer was evident, when I've pointed out it clearly wasn't. My vote stays.

[Persivul]

Do you seriously expect me to believe that you were answering the question?

No. You seem pretty black and white in your thinking. I bet other people can see that I considered it answered though.

[Persivul]

What is the scum motivation? Why did I go out of my way to clear a person who I know to be an easy D1 mislynch target? Look to our last game together - he was a total VI, to the point of self hammering.

So your answer is?