Mini 1800 - Game Over


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Post Post #300 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:16 am

Post by MechaGoomba »

In post 268, Sickofit1138 wrote: Were not talking about my contradiction... ive explained it already, we're talking about yours.
Your contradiction is "he called me scummy for sloppiness but later said sloppiness wasn't scummy", correct?
Well, the thing he is saying is that he didn't scumread you for your contradiction.
In post 165, Persivul wrote: People push to sort. For me,
the issue wasn't his contradiction, it was how he would react to it
. But, I couldn't say that at the time, as it would affect his reaction.
He was reaction testing. He never scumread you: your contradiction just gave him a platform to reaction test.
Therefore, he never believed sloppiness was scummy. No contradiction exists.

(You could argue that this is deception and therefore scummy, but reaction testing like that is a well-known strategy for town, and, well, it worked here. He sorted you as town.)
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Post Post #301 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:29 am

Post by MechaGoomba »

In post 235, Kappy wrote: This is where it all starts. Sickofit claims to have think he was the first poster, and didn't know he was on a wagon. Then he claims he saw the previews of the other posts, but didn't change his vote. Percy presses him for this, as if he saw the other posts, he knew he was on a wagon.
IIOA. No actual opinion given, just "unsure".
In post 235, Kappy wrote: This is not a good post. By you pointing out that you are town, that could be WIFOM. You could be purposely careless scum being careless for the sole purpose of pointing that out. If someone else pointed out you were towny, rather than you yourself, I would be more likely to believe it.
WIFOM argument. Chumba brought this up in , before you did, so this is unoriginal reasoning.
In post 235, Kappy wrote:
In post 134, Sickofit1138 wrote:Btw the reason I haven't been scum hunting as much as I would like us because I've been busy trying to explain some kind of "contradiction" in the RVS.
I just got started scum hunting, and someone interrupted it bringing up old news.
In post 152, Sickofit1138 wrote:I have a pitch.
We lynch persivul today: here's why:
Incredibly low-hanging fruit. Everyone else has already pointed out why these posts are bad: nothing new there.
In post 235, Kappy wrote: Sick's pointing out why he was scum, could have been, as I pointed out earlier, WIFOM. It seems like Sick wants to trick Percy with this and have him admit Sick is town.
WIFOM argument again, and it's still unoriginal.

tl;dr: Literally nothing in is in any way useful. It's all recycled or meaningless.
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Post Post #302 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:15 am

Post by qubixes »

I think that kappy has been playing somewhat "loose". However, I think it fits more town-loose than it does scum loose at this point. Obviously I had some reasons to put him on top of the list before I (for now) revised my read. First the reasons why I initially scum read him (most of it already pointed out I believe):

: His fear of RVS wagons
, : His weird jumping around he sickofit wagon.
: "Because it's RVS", which I interpreted as trying blend in as scum doing the proper thing.

Right now, his fear of RVS wagons still bugs me the most. I think when taking looseness into account, the other two can be explained from a town perspective (as well as from a scum perspective obviously!).

I disagree on a couple of points in your list [comments in red]:
In post 262, Persivul wrote: Kappy ISO:

First 14 posts are just screwing around and prolonging RVS
Yes, but it fits in the loose profile

- theory
I don't think his ISO is overly concentrated on theory, so I don't have a problem with this one.

- "No strong reads atm," but gives a bare reads list anyway. Scum have incentive to do this because lists are generally seen as towny. As scum I've advised buddies who were in trouble to just put up a reads list, and it frequently works.
I find reads lists more of stylistic thing than anything else (I almost never give them).

- reads list with some reasoning. Only thing slightly controversial was putting me in town. Most people are in null. Two scum reads are safe: several people were suspicious of sick, species wasn't very active.
Actually I don't think this read list is that safe really. The wagon of sickofit was already dissipating, with both me and you off the wagon. It's not that strange that he has a lot of null's early in Day 1. I think even that scum would be more likely to balance it more to get an even distribution.

- "Looked it up myself. it's true!" and sheeping on karnos is bad. I asked him what he had looked up, and he said he had just verified the one quote I gave. If he were really scum hunting he should have checked several games, searching for variants of lurk and hide. Chumba did just that, saying in "I was searching for lurking and hiding in his iso." Chumba's slot went up a notch for that.
I think how much time someone puts into research is more a personality thing than alignment. Ok, maybe town is naturally a little more likely to put in more effort. (Though it look like a really good opportunity for scum to jump in and take some credit for finding the pattern here (assuming Karnos is town).

- unwillingness to change read after karnos makes a good response
Ehh, he said he would check it and then unvote if true? He did change his read afterwards.

and - still trying to push me v. sick when, from my POV at least, that's over.
I don't see this as pushing you vs sick, just pushing sick. Actually the fact that he goes after sick here again makes me think he is more likely town, because he's actively going in the opposite direction from the rest.

Also, a number of people have expressed an opinion on him, so the flip would be informative.
This always really bothers me, when people try to suggest a lynch and add that it also gives a lot of information. What if kappy flips town, what do we know then?

So, how do you come up with a town read?
Summing up, I don't have a super strong town read on kappy, but I feel (gut) that he is more likely to be town. I don't feel like he has been trying to push a scum agenda. He hasn't really been trying to look town I feel.

I guess it's kind of silly that I spent most of my time right now defending someone else. I don't think I'd get any wagons rolling that I'd like to see though. (And still figuring out who I'd like the most to be lynched.)
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Post Post #303 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:20 am

Post by qubixes »

@mecha: Your points are fair. And I think that if I would think of Kappy as super strong experienced player, I might scum read him for that (sorry Kappy :/). Overall I think the case is alright, though the presentation is perhaps not the greatest.
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Post Post #304 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:01 am

Post by MechaGoomba »

In post 302, qubixes wrote:I think that kappy has been playing somewhat "loose". However, I think it fits more town-loose than it does scum loose at this point.
Any particular things you can point to that illustrate this? Because I don't see it. Even if it's a gut read, what statements are giving you that feeling?
In post 303, qubixes wrote:And I think that if I would think of Kappy as super strong experienced player, I might scum read him for that
Yeah, but look at the difference between what he's doing and what Sick (another inexperienced player) is doing.
Sick's case on Persy wasn't good, but it was original. He made it himself and he was going to defend it. He was invested in it. He knew he was right. Kappy, on the other hand, is throwing points out. Once he's made them, he forgets them and moves on to the next one. He has no investment in his cases.
One of these is a town player who believes they're telling the truth. One of these is a scum player who just wants to look town by having a case.
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Post Post #305 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:30 pm

Post by Persivul »

In post 302, qubixes wrote:Summing up, I don't have a super strong town read on kappy, but I feel (gut) that he is more likely to be town. I don't feel like he has been trying to push a scum agenda.
What kind of agenda do you expect to see from scum on D1?
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Post Post #306 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:52 pm

Post by qubixes »

In post 304, MechaGoomba wrote:
In post 302, qubixes wrote:I think that kappy has been playing somewhat "loose". However, I think it fits more town-loose than it does scum loose at this point.
Any particular things you can point to that illustrate this? Because I don't see it. Even if it's a gut read, what statements are giving you that feeling?
Well, I tried to find something, but I kind of failed I'm afraid. If anything, I think the first couple of posts are really all over the place, without really much care. I think as scum he would tread a little more careful. Also, he hasn't been too concerned so far with defending himself. Or trying to get himself buddied up with someone (maybe percivul somewhat). In general I feel he has been doing more or less his own thing so far. That said, I can be totally wrong, and I'll re-evaluate my read later on. One thing I should for sure do at some point is read/skim through the games he has played so far on this site. Maybe that'll give me a better idea.
In post 304, MechaGoomba wrote:
In post 303, qubixes wrote:And I think that if I would think of Kappy as super strong experienced player, I might scum read him for that
Yeah, but look at the difference between what he's doing and what Sick (another inexperienced player) is doing.
Sick's case on Persy wasn't good, but it was original. He made it himself and he was going to defend it. He was invested in it. He knew he was right. Kappy, on the other hand, is throwing points out. Once he's made them, he forgets them and moves on to the next one. He has no investment in his cases.
One of these is a town player who believes they're telling the truth. One of these is a scum player who just wants to look town by having a case.
Well, kappy was already on sick before the karnos switch, so in that sense there was some investment. Also, nobody was really pushing sick at that point anymore either. Well, to me sick's push on percivul sounds over the top. I feel he is overselling his "original" case quite a bit. Of course that is part style, but it also makes it look like he has done more than he actually did.

Anyway, kappy might want to take over his own defense. :)
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Post Post #307 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:59 pm

Post by qubixes »

In post 305, Persivul wrote:
In post 302, qubixes wrote:Summing up, I don't have a super strong town read on kappy, but I feel (gut) that he is more likely to be town. I don't feel like he has been trying to push a scum agenda.
What kind of agenda do you expect to see from scum on D1?
Not getting your buddy lynched, looking town, lead town, prepare someone to lynch tomorrow, figuring out PR's, bus your teammate... Lots of things to do. Of course, I don't know what scum!kappy's agenda would look like, maybe not all of the above..
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Post Post #308 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:24 pm

Post by Persivul »

Have you seen anyone doing that? If so, shouldn't you be saying something?

Point is that scum frequently drift on D1 and see how things play out.
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Post Post #309 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:07 pm

Post by Sickofit1138 »

My problem is that what you are saying you are doing does not feel like what you are ACTUALLY doing. You only backed Olof on me once my wagon was losing momentum.
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Post Post #310 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:08 pm

Post by Sickofit1138 »

What I don't like is people are following him like whatever he is saying is completely truth, which is anscumtell for the
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Post Post #311 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:09 pm

Post by Sickofit1138 »

P edit: Which is a scum tell for those people. I'm talking to you Mechagoomba.
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Post Post #312 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:56 pm

Post by MechaGoomba »

In post 302, qubixes wrote:I think that kappy has been playing somewhat "loose". However, I think it fits more town-loose than it does scum loose at this point. Obviously I had some reasons to put him on top of the list before I (for now) revised my read. First the reasons why I initially scum read him (most of it already pointed out I believe):

: His fear of RVS wagons
, : His weird jumping around he sickofit wagon.
: "Because it's RVS", which I interpreted as trying blend in as scum doing the proper thing.

Right now, his fear of RVS wagons still bugs me the most. I think when taking looseness into account, the other two can be explained from a town perspective (as well as from a scum perspective obviously!).

I disagree on a couple of points in your list [comments in red]:
In post 262, Persivul wrote: Kappy ISO:

First 14 posts are just screwing around and prolonging RVS
Yes, but it fits in the loose profile

- theory
I don't think his ISO is overly concentrated on theory, so I don't have a problem with this one.

- "No strong reads atm," but gives a bare reads list anyway. Scum have incentive to do this because lists are generally seen as towny. As scum I've advised buddies who were in trouble to just put up a reads list, and it frequently works.
I find reads lists more of stylistic thing than anything else (I almost never give them).

- reads list with some reasoning. Only thing slightly controversial was putting me in town. Most people are in null. Two scum reads are safe: several people were suspicious of sick, species wasn't very active.
Actually I don't think this read list is that safe really. The wagon of sickofit was already dissipating, with both me and you off the wagon. It's not that strange that he has a lot of null's early in Day 1. I think even that scum would be more likely to balance it more to get an even distribution.

- "Looked it up myself. it's true!" and sheeping on karnos is bad. I asked him what he had looked up, and he said he had just verified the one quote I gave. If he were really scum hunting he should have checked several games, searching for variants of lurk and hide. Chumba did just that, saying in "I was searching for lurking and hiding in his iso." Chumba's slot went up a notch for that.
I think how much time someone puts into research is more a personality thing than alignment. Ok, maybe town is naturally a little more likely to put in more effort. (Though it look like a really good opportunity for scum to jump in and take some credit for finding the pattern here (assuming Karnos is town).

- unwillingness to change read after karnos makes a good response
Ehh, he said he would check it and then unvote if true? He did change his read afterwards.

and - still trying to push me v. sick when, from my POV at least, that's over.
I don't see this as pushing you vs sick, just pushing sick. Actually the fact that he goes after sick here again makes me think he is more likely town, because he's actively going in the opposite direction from the rest.

Also, a number of people have expressed an opinion on him, so the flip would be informative.
This always really bothers me, when people try to suggest a lynch and add that it also gives a lot of information. What if kappy flips town, what do we know then?

So, how do you come up with a town read?
Summing up, I don't have a super strong town read on kappy, but I feel (gut) that he is more likely to be town. I don't feel like he has been trying to push a scum agenda. He hasn't really been trying to look town I feel.

I guess it's kind of silly that I spent most of my time right now defending someone else. I don't think I'd get any wagons rolling that I'd like to see though. (And still figuring out who I'd like the most to be lynched.)
In post 306, qubixes wrote:
In post 304, MechaGoomba wrote:
In post 302, qubixes wrote:I think that kappy has been playing somewhat "loose". However, I think it fits more town-loose than it does scum loose at this point.
Any particular things you can point to that illustrate this? Because I don't see it. Even if it's a gut read, what statements are giving you that feeling?
Well, I tried to find something, but I kind of failed I'm afraid. If anything, I think the first couple of posts are really all over the place, without really much care. I think as scum he would tread a little more careful. Also, he hasn't been too concerned so far with defending himself. Or trying to get himself buddied up with someone (maybe percivul somewhat). In general I feel he has been doing more or less his own thing so far. That said, I can be totally wrong, and I'll re-evaluate my read later on. One thing I should for sure do at some point is read/skim through the games he has played so far on this site. Maybe that'll give me a better idea.
In post 304, MechaGoomba wrote:
In post 303, qubixes wrote:And I think that if I would think of Kappy as super strong experienced player, I might scum read him for that
Yeah, but look at the difference between what he's doing and what Sick (another inexperienced player) is doing.
Sick's case on Persy wasn't good, but it was original. He made it himself and he was going to defend it. He was invested in it. He knew he was right. Kappy, on the other hand, is throwing points out. Once he's made them, he forgets them and moves on to the next one. He has no investment in his cases.
One of these is a town player who believes they're telling the truth. One of these is a scum player who just wants to look town by having a case.
Well, kappy was already on sick before the karnos switch, so in that sense there was some investment. Also, nobody was really pushing sick at that point anymore either. Well, to me sick's push on percivul sounds over the top. I feel he is overselling his "original" case quite a bit. Of course that is part style, but it also makes it look like he has done more than he actually did.

Anyway, kappy might want to take over his own defense. :)
I have no idea what you're saying. Please try again with more explanation and fewer typos.
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Post Post #313 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:57 pm

Post by MechaGoomba »

EBWOP: Oh what the fuck was that. Just ignore the quoted bits.
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Post Post #314 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:58 pm

Post by Kappy »

just announcing I'm leaving to go to Kansas: everyone expect posts even more rarely. I should have Internet, though, so I won't V/LA
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Post Post #315 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:59 pm

Post by Saru »

In post 312, MechaGoomba wrote: I have no idea what you're saying. Please try again with more explanation and fewer typos.
I lol'd. :lol: :lol:
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Post Post #316 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:07 pm

Post by Saru »

From my understanding, I think Sick is talking to Persivul in post 309 and he's saying that he doesn't believe Persivul when he says that he was reaction testing Sick. Sick thinks that Persivul was using reaction testing as an excuse to jump off a deteriorating wagon. I don't agree with that analysis though as stated in my previous posts.

And then in post 310 and 311, it sounds like he's angry that people are supposedly just following whatever Persivul is saying as truth, which he thinks also includes you Mecha.

Hope that's correct. Took me a while to understand lmfao. :P
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Post Post #317 (ISO) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:36 pm

Post by Sickofit1138 »

I feel like I need a translator.

God I hate mobile posting.
Always ask for consent before hopping on someone's wagon.
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Post Post #318 (ISO) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:06 am

Post by qubixes »

In post 308, Persivul wrote:Have you seen anyone doing that? If so, shouldn't you be saying something?

Point is that scum frequently drift on D1 and see how things play out.
I think there are players that have been more scummy, so yes I guess?

Not sure exactly what you mean by drifting (seen the word thrown around a bit), but isn't it something town does as well?

Why did you phrase your questions to me the way you did? Do you think I'm scum? Is it supposed to motivate me? (Hint: it doesn't) To me, it doesn't look like with the current state of the game, pushing someone I find scummy isn't going to accomplish anything. So why bother?
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Post Post #319 (ISO) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:40 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 318, qubixes wrote: I think there are players that have been more scummy, so yes I guess?
Who, and why?
Not sure exactly what you mean by drifting (seen the word thrown around a bit), but isn't it something town does as well?
Lazy town do. That's why we need to push people to sort them.
Why did you phrase your questions to me the way you did? Do you think I'm scum?
I find you suspicious.
Is it supposed to motivate me? (Hint: it doesn't) To me, it doesn't look like with the current state of the game, pushing someone I find scummy isn't going to accomplish anything.
What specifically about the current game state indicates that pushing someone scummy won't accomplish anything?
So why bother?
How do you intend to sort people if you don't pressure your scum reads?
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Post Post #320 (ISO) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:54 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 309, Sickofit1138 wrote:My problem is that what you are saying you are doing does not feel like what you are ACTUALLY doing. You only backed Olof on me once my wagon was losing momentum.
Your D1 feelings aren't very good historically. In 640 you were 0 for 3 on your final reads after self-hammering to get people to pay attention to you reads. You even town read the grey slot, which was like the easiest scum read ever.
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Post Post #321 (ISO) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:31 am

Post by karnos »

I'm going to be absent most of the day, monthly D&D game is today. I'll try to get caught up tonight after the kid is asleep.

And yes, the reads will be coming when I get some time.
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Post Post #322 (ISO) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:02 am

Post by MechaGoomba »

In post 316, Saru wrote:I don't agree with that analysis though as stated in my previous posts.
Most of your previous posts were complaining because you didn't see an explanation, and also because you believed Persy was dodging the question. But the gap between where the question was raised and where the answer was provided is not actually that large. There's a much bigger gap between the start of the game and where Sick explained his contradiction, yet you're not pushing him.
In post 316, Saru wrote:angry that people are supposedly just following whatever Persivul is saying as truth
If that's a good interpretation, Sick, then I have to say I don't see your point. If we don't accept Persy's explanation because you're reading him as scummy, then we can't accept your explanation for your contradiction either because there are still people reading you as scummy.


Sick and Persy are in the same boat: they are being pushed for a small, relatively meaningless mistake because, while they attempted to explain it, their explanation wasn't quite clear enough for the people pushing them to see. Both of them exhibit the same patterns: "what, no, I already explained it, I'm not going to repeat myself" and, when pushed farther, "you aren't even reading, are you?" Neither of them are complaining that their explanation wasn't good enough, that it ought to have been more convincing. They believe that anyone who saw their reasoning would have to see, would have to realize what they truly meant.
Their indignation is not about being unable to appear town. It is that people are refusing to see the reasons they are (from their viewpoint) clearly town.
Both Sick and Persy's reactions are clearly town to me. Persy is experienced enough that he could be faking it, but I doubt it.
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Post Post #323 (ISO) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:43 am

Post by ShadyHood »

You are an unusual one, MechaGoomba, Sick and Persy are not in the same boat, if Sick explained it well, Persy is the total opposite, he completely dodged the question, the question was about Persy's contradiction, however, Persy's answer didn't explain himself, instead it explains his actions to Sick, that's not what's being asked, and for that reason I am one of the crowd that is pushing him to the cliff.
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Post Post #324 (ISO) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:41 am

Post by MechaGoomba »

OK you see that post at the top of the page? Go read it. If you've already read it, reread it. Then make a coherent response to it.
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