Mini 495 - Mafia on a Plane! GAME OVER! =)

[dybeck]

Yay! People are starting to look at lynches that are not me!

Congrats everyone!

[vollkan]

EBWOP:= In my previous post, the second quote should read:

However, Korlash himself contradicts this because he himself is unconvinced as to whether Orig is vig or mafia.

and not

However, Korlash himself contradicts this because he himself is unconvinced as to whether Orig is vig or mafia.

[Lucienne]

Definitely wil post tomorrow.

[Korlash]

Wow that was totally great... good job in not telling me which ones are not false and where I was wrong. Thanks for not putting words in my mouth. Real brilliant.

Oh and a numbers crunching nice...

Well I don;t have the time to point out the follies or my opinions right now, i will after work. until then do try and not be an asshole... thanks...

[Gemelli]

I'm just back from a 3-day weekend, folks. I had a feeling there would be 1+ pages to read when I returned, and lo and behold

First things first: breeeeeathe in. Breeeeeathe out. Repeat x10.

Everyone calmed down now? Good!

It may not be full blown BEST FOR TOWN, but it is a GOOD FOR ME in the end.

This sets off red flags for me. Pro-town players should be willing to sacrifice themselves if doing so advances the town's win condition. Granted, with three town players down, ANY town death is a bad thing, but I still see your tactics as motivated by self-interest.

So you think I am mafia? With who?

You, Orig, and either Shaft.ed or dybeck. still deciding on the third...

I find it highly unlikely that Vollkan and Dybeck are in cahoots, considering the amount of time that they've spent at each other's throats this game. If they are aligned, they have been going to an unusual -- bordering on counter-productive -- amount of effort to conceal that fact.

Personally, I don't buy the scumShaft.ed scenario, either. From what I've been able to find, your primary argument against him seems to be that Vollkan considers him likely pro-town. That's hardly a good argument; FWIW I also consider him likely pro-town. My observation is based on his play, his refusal to accept anyone's statements as necessarily true, and his persistence in questioning what he perceives as flaws in others' arguments. He posts frequently, and his posts are largely free of hyperbole and fallacious reasoning. Anything's possible in Mafia, but I just do not see how someone can be that high on your suspicion list just because they are supported by your primary suspect.

I've already made my suspicions vs. orig (strong) and vollkan (moderate) known in previous posts. I do not think either of them makes sense as a lynch candidate today; there are at least three players I find more suspicious than vollkan as of today.

Oman had been playing very shitty in my opinion. I have no idea what the hell he might have said. For all you know I could be the Doc and there might have been a false claim day two that Oman spoke up about. For all I know he may have let something slip about being a vanilla towny in a post that was overlooked. He may have even claimed to be the Vig at some point. I didn't mean to say he might have lied about his role, I meant to imply I didn't know if he had claimed yet, and if he didn't I don't want to claim it either. So I tried to be as vague as possible.

This bugs me on several levels. First, you've just finished a reread of Oman's post history in response to my questions. Are you saying that you

don't know

what he's posted in this game? As the only person who is 100% certain of your role, I would expect that any "tells" Oman might have made hinting at that role would be most obvious to you. And you should know that there was no reaction to any Oman role hints in the thread; we almost certainly would have been all over any such hints like white on rice. So I don't buy that you wanted to stay vague because you didn't know if your real role had already been breadcrumbed or not. What I find *more* feasible is that you don't know if Oman had already left a breadcrumb for a FALSE ROLE CLAIM.

As other have pointed out, by the time you posted, practically all of the votes against you had melted away. The only "pressure" you had was a request (calmly and politely worded, I thought) to go back and look at the case I'd crafted against Oman before you joined, and to comment on anything you saw that might have explained his previous actions. I don't think you needed to hint OR claim in response. So I think that the current focus on you makes sense, and is not in itself scummy.

As far as the "claim" goes, I stand by my earlier comment that what Korlash did initially was hinting, not claiming. But his later posts confirm that he DID intend to hint strongly at vanilla.

For all intents and purposes, I believe that a "strong hint" at a role has the same effect as an outright claim.

If there is some strategic difference between the two, in terms of how they affect the game differently, please let me know about it. I'm new

As such, I do not think that shaft.ed and vollkan are out of bounds for their suspicions on you. The main point you seem to be making is that (A) you did not actually claim vanilla, but only hinted strongly at it, and (B) vollkan and shaft.ed are twisting your words to state that you did actually claim. THIS IS SEMANTICS. IT DOES NOT MATTER. I think (hope) that all three of you will at least agree that Korlash did strongly hint at a vanilla role. Let's focus the discussion on how that information affects the game, NOT on the specific words that were used. OK?

I think shaft.ed summed up the point well:

He was purposefully claiming vanilla, but he has subsequently obfuscated his position to the point where it basically means nothing. In doing so he has demonstrated he really really doesn't want to die, and the town comes in second.

So, when I "hint," or even 'semi-claim" if you want, at any role (Mafia, vanilla, power role) the mafia can in no way know what I am talking about. So, when a person or persons push me up against the wall saying my claim hurt the town, it made me feel like those people were trying to either get me to admit I had a role, or to further admit I was vanilla. If the mafia knew either of these then of course your arguments made sense. If they were sure I was vanilla they would know who to hit for a cop/doc likeliness. So I found it scummy you guys kept pushing my "claim" no matter how many times I tried to defend myself/ say I did not claim. Thus I called it role fishing earlier and just recently said you were trying to weed me out. Whether or not this was your intention you cannot deny that the more we talked about it the more likelihood that I actually claimed and thus gave the mafia info. As of right now I am still pretty much an unknown and thus still a gamble for a NK. Could be good, could be bad. keep pushing and I know it will be bad.

This is a somewhat valid argument; I did feel (and commented) that vollkan's questions felt somewhat like rolefishing. He responded to my points, and we moved on.

What bothers me about this post, though, is that you seem unwilling to discuss vollkan/shaft.ed's basic premise, which is that

a premature vanilla hint or claim is bad for the town

. I happen to agree with that perspective, but I do not claim that my opinion is inherently pro-town or scummy.

If you re-read the posts from Day 1, you'll see that the player I replaced (Dr. Blackstrike) got involved in very similar discussions to what you're experiencing now. In discussing his role, the only thing he did was to draw suspicion to himself (and by extension, to me). Yes, he was still "technically an unknown" for the scum at that point, and a possible power role. But he made himself so suspicious that even if he WAS a power role, the scum knew that he was also a likely lynch candidate.

In short: if I choose to take your claim/hint as valid, I can understand your frustration at being attacked. But I think you are being overly defensive in calling vollkan and shaft.ed scummy for pointing out flaws in your reasoning. Remember, you were already in something of a hole when you replaced in: by your own admission, Oman's play looked scummy. Isn't it reasonable for people to be suspicious of you?

Korlash himself contradicts this because he himself is unconvinced as to whether Orig is vig or mafia.

This was the only quote on Korlash's list that I think merits attention. Vollkan, whether there are good reasons for him to feel one way or the other is beside the point. In his post, he indicated that he did have a strong opinion, but does not want to share it at this time. I didn't see anything in his posts that indicates a waffling position. Remember, not everyone in the game thinks the same way as you. It's not reasonable to state someone's intentions based on how YOU would think about a situation.

The other quotes from the list seem to boil down to semantics or subjective interpretation, and are not "true" or "false" in any meaningful way. I want the last 30 minutes of my life back

I find it odd Originality and Elias and AllyG and Lucienne and Gemelli are not actively participating in this. So it is not totally my fault no "scum hunting" is being done aside from what I am doing.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have limited access on weekends (see my sig). The fact that this weekend ran three days was unplanned. Sorry about that.

Definitely wil post tomorrow.

Please do. We are less than 10 days away from a deadline. We need all the input we can get at this point.

[shaft.ed]

The other quotes from the list seem to boil down to semantics or subjective interpretation, and are not "true" or "false" in any meaningful way. I want the last 30 minutes of my life back

QFT, and thanks Gemelli for calming things down a bit. My views on the vanilla incident are pretty much in accord with Gemelli, and will not be discussed further for now.

Korlash, your response to this was inadequate:

Which one of these things is not like the other? Which one of these things just does not belong?

3) No. I have no fear that you will kill me tonight Vollkan. I think you would much rather kill off Orig. and if not that, I guarantee you would kill off Shaft.ed just in case the VIg kills one of your partners You look completely innocent tomorrow. Killing me tonight would stop me being a good candidate for a lynch tomorrow.

You, Orig, and either Shaft.ed or dybeck. still deciding on the third... Shaft.ed seems to have the links, but Dybeck has the distancing factor working with his obvious scumminess. hmmm, I would rather Lynch the most likely mafia, Orig, today, take you out tomorrow, and hope either shaft.ed or Dybeck are Nked or gain new evidence for/against them by day four.

Can we say complete contradiction. First you state that vollkan is scum and wants to kill Orig, or maybe myslelf. Then less than an hour later vollkan is scum with orig and me or maybe dybeck for partners.

This was the closest thing to a reply I could find.

And yeah, an hour of reading your guy's crap can change a lot thank you very much.

Since this change in your view towards myself going from town likely to be NK'd to scum aligned with vollkan came before any of my posts following the vanilla incident, I have to assume that you found me scummy during your reread. Please provide the evidence that lead you towards this conclusion.

[Elias_the_thief]

Korlash- I gave my opinion on the situation earlier. For now, I'd like to see where this goes, but I don't have the time to write up things as well as Vollkan has done. Do I think you're scum? I don know. From personal experience, I know that Vollkan has a way of getting contradictions out of people, perhaps even if they didnt make them.

[Streeflo]

Day 2, Votecount #29!

dybeck (2) - originality, AlyG
Korlash (2) - dybeck, vollkan
shaft.ed (1) - Korlash

Not voting: Lucienne, shaft.ed, Elias_the_Thief, Gemelli

With

9

alive it takes

5

to lynch!

Day 2 Deadline: November 1

[vollkan]

As such, I do not think that shaft.ed and vollkan are out of bounds for their suspicions on you. The main point you seem to be making is that (A) you did not actually claim vanilla, but only hinted strongly at it, and (B) vollkan and shaft.ed are twisting your words to state that you did actually claim. THIS IS SEMANTICS. IT DOES NOT MATTER. I think (hope) that all three of you will at least agree that Korlash did strongly hint at a vanilla role. Let's focus the discussion on how that information affects the game, NOT on the specific words that were used. OK?

I agree with this; it basically what I have been saying this whole time. He did not explicitly say "I am vanilla", but he effectively did so anyway.

This was the only quote on Korlash's list that I think merits attention. Vollkan, whether there are good reasons for him to feel one way or the other is beside the point. In his post, he indicated that he did have a strong opinion, but does not want to share it at this time. I didn't see anything in his posts that indicates a waffling position. Remember, not everyone in the game thinks the same way as you. It's not reasonable to state someone's intentions based on how YOU would think about a situation.

I addressed this with my numbers thing. His whole notion of sacrificing himself revolves around 100% certainty about shaft.ed, dybeck. Orig and myself, which is just ridiculous at the best of times. Isn't this immediately rendered dubious by the fact that he has even some uncertainty as to whether or not Orig is mafia?

Korlash- I gave my opinion on the situation earlier. For now, I'd like to see where this goes, but I don't have the time to write up things as well as Vollkan has done. Do I think you're scum? I don know. From personal experience, I know that Vollkan has a way of getting contradictions out of people, perhaps even if they didnt make them.

Yes. This is a bit of a problem of mine which came up between Elias and myself in Mini 486. I have a bad habit of "over-arguing". Once I get started on somebody I literally have to force myself to take another view (ie. what I did before by forcing myself to go Devil's Advocate on Elias).

[originality]

Hey everyone. The reason I haven't been posting is my computer went south. (I'm posting from my wii). Its sort of hard to read everything from here but I did a skimming anyways. I think the computer will most likely be OK before the deadline, and if not I'll try to come and work from here. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Quick thoughts: Uhhh, Korlash's softclaim (because that's what it was) was pretty damn weird. I don't know what else to say. Sorry, I'll really try to get some work done on this but right now it's sort of hard. I'd rather not be replaced by the way if thats alright.

[AlyG]

Gemelli: did you read my response? And Korlash, stop pretending you didn't claim vanilla.

Avvy: 100% Vanilla

that's all i've got to say. The claim as a whole was just weird.

[Gemelli]

I read it. Your explanation seemed OK, though brief.

And please, let's not keep the semantics claim/hint debate going any more. It's played out.

[AlyG]

I read it. Your explanation seemed OK, though brief.

And please, let's not keep the semantics claim/hint debate going any more. It's played out.

It was brief because i didn't feel like typing the same post again so i just referenced it.

[Korlash]

Ok, now that I finally have some time to sit down...

First things first,

What bothers me about this post, though, is that you seem unwilling to discuss vollkan/shaft.ed's basic premise, which is that a premature vanilla hint or claim is bad for the town.

I am pretty sure I told you guys that at the time I posted my "claim" I did not see it as being bad for town. I personally do not see how a vanilla claim should bring suspicion on me (at least I didn't then, I do now.) So when people began to say that I was being bad for town I took it as if they were using a BS case against me. After the 2 or so pages of talk I see their point, and so I feel no more need to discuss it. I was wrong to say it and now that I know I will be more careful in future games. And because I know I was wrong discussing it only puts me more and more into scum zone.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have limited access on weekends (see my sig). The fact that this weekend ran three days was unplanned. Sorry about that.

And I am ok with that. I just don't like people to say it's my fault no scum hunting is being done when I feel I am doing my part, yet no one else seems to be. Again, I am a person without as much background knowledge you guys have s everything that just happened was my first real read at Shaft.ed and Vollkan, which is why I think of myself actively scum hunting.

@ Dybeck: Do you plan on ever posting anything of substance or are you just hoping everyone will forget about whatever was going on before I came here? I can understand your vote on me, but I would like some reason as to why.

@ Lucienne: I honestly cannot rememeber the last time you posted... well... anything at all. With the deadline coming up I would hope you could make time, but I a not fully aware of your circumstances so I could be sounding like an Ass right now. I would just appreciate some input so I am not just going in circles with the same two guys all the time.

This sets off red flags for me. Pro-town players should be willing to sacrifice themselves if doing so advances the town's win condition. Granted, with three town players down, ANY town death is a bad thing, but I still see your tactics as motivated by self-interest.

Lets say, hypothetically, I am the Doc. How would my death in anyway help the town's win condition? I could save one of the two known roles we have seen today from a NK. My death today could actually spell town's defeat. (Sorta. Depends on the Vig here.)

Now lets say I am the Cop. Being the cop I would of course be a valuble asset on day three. (Two people known. Provided they are still alive.) again, seeing as how there is no real chance of me being NKed from the mafia (Because two others are already claimed) how can my death today benefit town? (sure we will still have the Doc, but it's still kind bad for town.)

Now say I am a vanilla towny. If we lynch me, we lose a town and the mafia do not lose anyone, if I am NKed by vig we of course loose two townies tonight. and if I am NKed by mafia well... Then it is pretty much a sure thing every other towny has a role and so it could very well lead to a he said she said claim-a-thon tomorrow.

So in no way is my death going to help the town's win condition (Unless I am mafia. Which I am not, but it is th other possibility.)

You can also get in to the fact I could very well be the vig or tracker and have chosen not to speak up about it. But if that is the case then I wouldn't mind dying to disprove their claim. So I suppose you can almost safely say I am not one of those.

Personally, I don't buy the scumShaft.ed scenario, either. From what I've been able to find, your primary argument against him seems to be that Vollkan considers him likely pro-town.

My argument with him has very little to do with that. It stems from that small window of opportunity of a trio I saw before, but now it gets into the fact that he more or less said many of the things Vollkan said, which I thought were all non-sense. After working my ass off for the last two days strait I have had nothing to do but go over this game in my head a few times I can can see their side a bit more then I did before and I am starting to believe I did overreact to a lot. I was so paranoid everyone woudl come after me for what Oman did I was quick to get the fact I am not mafia out there. Now that I have come to terms with how bad that is I really don't know what to do. There are a few arguments I made I will defend, and a few of them I now fully disagree with myself about so eh...

I suppose the only real thing I can do is continue to try and clarify your thoughts and hope we someone get a break before the deadline.

I do not think either of them makes sense as a lynch candidate today; there are at least three players I find more suspicious than vollkan as of today.

I know me (Oman) is one of them but can I ask who the others are and why? Easier to do this then go back and try to read through it again.

First, you've just finished a reread of Oman's post history in response to my questions. Are you saying that you don't know what he's posted in this game?

I have yet to finish his history. In fact, things have been so busy on this end I have not had time to read back anyways at all. I do not even know the reason he quit. Did he stop posting or have an actual reason to leave?

And to answer your questions I basically just only looked at your post and made assumptions on what could have been.

As for the breadcrumb false role claim thing it's basically what just happened now. Perhaps at some point he just claimed vanilla for some reason. I would hate to claim my actual role if everyone already assumed I was vanilla. Which is why I wanted to be sure before I (in my mind) started to claim. And that is a big reason I felt so strongly on my "No claim" thing. I did not want to admit I had claimed vanilla in anyway until I was sure Oman had not done something else. Otherwise it brings up a full contradiction and thus a good scum attack on me. now that i more or less know he did not claim I am able to stop insisting my claim was not that.

Yes, I wanted to make everyone think I was vanilla. Like I said, I did not at the time see how this was harmful, so I thought it ok. I thought it would be a great way to not be NKed because two other power roles have been claimed already. I stick to my "selfish" reason, mostly because if I am a power role that reason is less likely to get me NKed and if I am a vanilla towny then... well Hopefully I have not read 35 pages for nothing ^^

Also a side note, this late in the game I feel any town death is going to cause us to be that closer to defeat so I can see how me not wanting to die is also a good pro-town thing. I won't push it because I agree every towny should be willing to die to win, but two more townies dead by tomorrow leave us little hope don't you think?

The other quotes from the list seem to boil down to semantics or subjective interpretation, and are not "true" or "false" in any meaningful way. I want the last 30 minutes of my life back

I am sorry about that. Each of those quotes I felt I needed to explain my thinking on, but I did not want to spend 8 hours doing so so I posted them to see which of them you guys wanted me to most explain. And instead of doing that you mostly just say they are all bad and leave it at that. I admit not all of them are "false" as I said, some of them just have a side thing I wanted to talk about. But as I said, after two days of hard labor and game mulling I no longer agree with half my thoughts and so Explaining what I thought then will do us no good.

Since this change in your view towards myself going from town likely to be NK'd to scum aligned with vollkan came before any of my posts following the vanilla incident, I have to assume that you found me scummy during your reread. Please provide the evidence that lead you towards this conclusion.

Yeah I was mostly taking my top suspect, Vollkan, and placing him in league with the most likely partner I found ( I think I illustrated that point a long time ago in my questions for Vollkan thing.) and my second choice and pushing them together as a trio. At the same time I was juggling the idea that Vollkan and two people I had not heard were the scum, and if so You and Dybeck (the ones I most suspected as his partners) would be a good NK choice to throw all heat off of him. I more or less disagree with this now as I see all my own flaws. I still admit you and Vollkan have a few things linking you, but no more then any player-to-player links you gain during a 45 page game. As for a Vollkan-Dybeck link, I admit the degree of distancing that would require is pretty unnecessary so I also find myself different minded on that one.

From personal experience, I know that Vollkan has a way of getting contradictions out of people, perhaps even if they didnt make them.

If this is true then I am slightly less inclined to think he is scum. If he has in fact been playing this way all game (I may not have noticed it on my read) then The fact he seemed to come at me like he did doesn't seem as scummy as it did earlier. I admit this right here is a good reason some of my suspicion on Vollkan has dropped (among other things) and so if what he said is false I woudl like someone to mention it. Or even say how true it is. It would save me a lot of reread time.

I addressed this with my numbers thing. His whole notion of sacrificing himself revolves around 100% certainty about shaft.ed, dybeck. Orig and myself, which is just ridiculous at the best of times. Isn't this immediately rendered dubious by the fact that he has even some uncertainty as to whether or not Orig is mafia?

I do not think it requires %100 certainty on all of you, seeing as how one of those four has a good chance of being mafia no matter how you look at it. It actually only requires a mafia vig kill. One mafia death gives us some leeway, and so losing a towny for a lynch will not be as bad. (Still bad, but not game losing)

And if you really want me to tell you my feeling's on Orig fine. I just did not feel it that important to go into. I will say I am leaning about %70 or so- %30 or so one way or the other, an overwhelming majority on one of them. And so I do not feel I am that uncertain as to what I feel about him. Just careful not to overlook a possibility.

Also I see you more or less said Elias was telling the truth so yay. That answers my question.

Also what is the exact definition of a soft claim? I don;t want to do any comment about it if I do not fully understand it.

@ AlyG: I have pretty much stopped that now. I admit I more or less claimed, and I feel I have fully answered as to my feelings about the subject.

Only two things I want to point out from Vollkan's big post on the last page.

Korlash, DON'T CLAIM DOC! Was that role-fishing?

No, under most circumstances that is in no way rolefishing. However, if I was someone who had jsut said "I feel like I need to role claim, what do you think?" And you say that. It makes me feel like your either trying to see if I just ) Do not claim at all or B) Actually say "well it's fine I am not the Doc then."

To me Rolefishing can be played a numerous amount of ways. Take this example (My claim that is) To me, it seems logical a mafia will attack my vanilla claim to see if it was a false claim (and I am a role) or if it was true (And thus they know not to attack me) This is why I was so defensive about having not claimed. So I would not have to slip up and then give the mafia more reason to think one way or the other. As you said before, just saying town proves nothing, as just saying your vanilla does not prove you to be, so in my paranoid mind I say you as trying to weed out my true role. Now that I understand how bad my actions were I am less inclined to think this and so I do apologize. But I think my reasonings at the time seemed ok.

]Huh?!?! I thought shaft.ed/dybeck/myself were the 3 obvious 100% scum. As such, why should you even care what we do?

That last sentence...it's just brilliant.

I think we've hooked one.

I already said that I felt Shaft.ed blaming me for any non-scum hunting going on was pretty harsh. No one person can stop scum hunting and so I said that to either A) Try and get to to scum hunt (Although I feel you guys have been scuming me this whole time and so I cannot see why Shaft.ed woudl say this.) and B) Further improve my attacks on Shaft.ed who, we all agree, is pretty much more or less pro-town looking. In fact, that statement, about me hindering scum hunting, is the only thing that remains in my mind about him after my "change of heart."

And how is that sentence just brilliant? (I take that as sarcasm) I think if you guy's want to do scum hunting you cannot blame me you aren't. I cannot stop you from making points at other players, I cannot force them to post back, and I sure as hell cannot see how all that shit we just went through cannot be called "scum hunting" in some form.

I want to comment on all those "false" quotes I listed and your comments on them but I have more or less said I have different views and I see no point in rehashing an old subject. If you want me too I will gladly explain why I felt them false but if not I am willing to leave it at I was overreacting on most of them.

Ok thats my up-to-date views post. I will have the entire thread read come 5-6 days before deadline. Hopefully the game will not get that far because I hate when a day dies because of a deadline and a towny is short lynched killed. Especially if it's me ><

Edit before post: I normally preview my stuff before posting, but today I just don't feel like rereading it. I apologize in advance for any misspellings, grammatical errors, or sentences that are unclear as I may or may not have fixed them in a preview. sorry for the inconvenience!

[Streeflo]

Because of the replacement, the deadline has been extended one week. New Deadline:

November 8, 2007

Say thanks to your all-powerful and gracious mod.

=)

[Korlash]

You are a God mod...

sorry I meant good mod >.> <.<

... yeah... that is what I meant...

[vollkan]

I am pretty sure I told you guys that at the time I posted my "claim" I did not see it as being bad for town. I personally do not see how a vanilla claim should bring suspicion on me (at least I didn't then, I do now.) So when people began to say that I was being bad for town I took it as if they were using a BS case against me. After the 2 or so pages of talk I see their point, and so I feel no more need to discuss it. I was wrong to say it and now that I know I will be more careful in future games. And because I know I was wrong discussing it only puts me more and more into scum zone.

Good. I like the fact that you are admitting error (In a good way).

Lets say, hypothetically, I am the Doc. How would my death in anyway help the town's win condition? I could save one of the two known roles we have seen today from a NK. My death today could actually spell town's defeat. (Sorta. Depends on the Vig here.)

Now lets say I am the Cop. Being the cop I would of course be a valuble asset on day three. (Two people known. Provided they are still alive.) again, seeing as how there is no real chance of me being NKed from the mafia (Because two others are already claimed) how can my death today benefit town? (sure we will still have the Doc, but it's still kind bad for town.)

Now say I am a vanilla towny. If we lynch me, we lose a town and the mafia do not lose anyone, if I am NKed by vig we of course loose two townies tonight. and if I am NKed by mafia well... Then it is pretty much a sure thing every other towny has a role and so it could very well lead to a he said she said claim-a-thon tomorrow.

So in no way is my death going to help the town's win condition (Unless I am mafia. Which I am not, but it is th other possibility.)

You can also get in to the fact I could very well be the vig or tracker and have chosen not to speak up about it. But if that is the case then I wouldn't mind dying to disprove their claim. So I suppose you can almost safely say I am not one of those.

Don't strawman; I never said that townie deaths

help

the town. What I said is that the priority for townies is the town, not themselves. Being a power role complicates things, but it doesn't alter that basic fact.

My argument with him has very little to do with that. It stems from that small window of opportunity of a trio I saw before, but now it gets into the fact that he more or less said many of the things Vollkan said, which I thought were all non-sense. After working my ass off for the last two days strait I have had nothing to do but go over this game in my head a few times I can can see their side a bit more then I did before and I am starting to believe I did overreact to a lot. I was so paranoid everyone woudl come after me for what Oman did I was quick to get the fact I am not mafia out there. Now that I have come to terms with how bad that is I really don't know what to do. There are a few arguments I made I will defend, and a few of them I now fully disagree with myself about so eh...

Again, good.

As for the breadcrumb false role claim thing it's basically what just happened now. Perhaps at some point he just claimed vanilla for some reason. I would hate to claim my actual role if everyone already assumed I was vanilla. Which is why I wanted to be sure before I (in my mind) started to claim. And that is a big reason I felt so strongly on my "No claim" thing. I did not want to admit I had claimed vanilla in anyway until I was sure Oman had not done something else. Otherwise it brings up a full contradiction and thus a good scum attack on me. now that i more or less know he did not claim I am able to stop insisting my claim was not that.

I don't get this...If what you are saying is true, that still fails to explain why you did the "my avvy says it all" thing, which amounts to a vanilla claim in effect.

If you had simply said "I am town", then this would make sense.

To clarify what I am saying: Supposing, unbeknown to yourself, Oman had claimed cop on page 20. Your avatar-claim thing would then make you look odd and contradictory.

Yes, I wanted to make everyone think I was vanilla. Like I said, I did not at the time see how this was harmful, so I thought it ok. I thought it would be a great way to not be NKed because two other power roles have been claimed already. I stick to my "selfish" reason, mostly because if I am a power role that reason is less likely to get me NKed and if I am a vanilla towny then... well Hopefully I have not read 35 pages for nothing ^^

Scum are always more likely to target claimed power roles over unclaimed townies, unless they are playing wifom or going anti-player. You did not improve your survival chances by claiming vanilla.

Also a side note, this late in the game I feel any town death is going to cause us to be that closer to defeat so I can see how me not wanting to die is also a good pro-town thing. I won't push it because I agree every towny should be willing to die to win, but two more townies dead by tomorrow leave us little hope don't you think?

Yes, it's generally accepted that town deaths hurt the town...

Your vanilla claim, if anything, hurt your chances of surviving today and will have no impact on the fact that mafia NK a town tonight.

Hence, it only really has a negative effect for the town overall.

Yeah I was mostly taking my top suspect, Vollkan, and placing him in league with the most likely partner I found ( I think I illustrated that point a long time ago in my questions for Vollkan thing.) and my second choice and pushing them together as a trio. At the same time I was juggling the idea that Vollkan and two people I had not heard were the scum, and if so You and Dybeck (the ones I most suspected as his partners) would be a good NK choice to throw all heat off of him. I more or less disagree with this now as I see all my own flaws. I still admit you and Vollkan have a few things linking you, but no more then any player-to-player links you gain during a 45 page game. As for a Vollkan-Dybeck link, I admit the degree of distancing that would require is pretty unnecessary so I also find myself different minded on that one.

"Top suspect"? If you are now accepting my comments regarding the vanilla claim, then what is your case against me?

If this is true then I am slightly less inclined to think he is scum. If he has in fact been playing this way all game (I may not have noticed it on my read) then The fact he seemed to come at me like he did doesn't seem as scummy as it did earlier. I admit this right here is a good reason some of my suspicion on Vollkan has dropped (among other things) and so if what he said is false I woudl like someone to mention it. Or even say how true it is. It would save me a lot of reread time.

Just look at my title: "The Interrogator" if you want some proof. I got that for my argumentative approach.

I do not think it requires %100 certainty on all of you, seeing as how one of those four has a good chance of being mafia no matter how you look at it. It actually only requires a mafia vig kill. One mafia death gives us some leeway, and so losing a towny for a lynch will not be as bad. (Still bad, but not game losing)

It does require 100% certainty to be viable.

Look, you are saying now that dybeck, shaft.ed, Orig and myself all have a good chance of being mafia.

Typically, there are only 3-member mafias in minis.
As such, you are already expressing uncertainty about the identity of one the members.
Moreover, if Orig is mafia, there is no guarantee as to whether we have a vig or SK.

So...let's run through the scenarios with NUMBERS! (because you all love them so much <3)

Orig = vig

Lynch townKorlash = 5:3
MafNK = 4:3
Orig NK = 4:2 LYLO or 3:3 LOSS (4:3 LYLO if no NK)

If Orig is wrong in targeting the mafia, we lose. Hence, if you have ANY doubts whatsoever about any of your top suspects, this plan is just not worth contemplating.

Moreover, even if Orig succeeded, we would be in LYLO at best, so I don't see why you would really be willing to have yourself lynched.

If Orig = mafia and there is a vig

Lynch townKorlash = 5:3
MafNK = 4:3
VigNK Orig = 4:2 LYLO

The vig will target Orig who is confirmed mafia. Again, this puts us in LYLO at best so it is hardly desirable for you to give yourself for it.

If Orig = mafia and there is a SK

Lynch townKorlash = 4:3:1
MafNK = 3:3:1 (P=4/5)
SKNK Orig = 3:2:1 MESSY

Pretty much the same deal as above.

I hope you see what I am saying.

Also what is the exact definition of a soft claim? I don;t want to do any comment about it if I do not fully understand it.

They may have been referring to your claim being only-slightly-less-than-explicit. I have also seen the phrase "soft claim" be used when people say "I am town".

Unvote

but I maintain an

FoS

on you.

[Korlash]

Well It's nice that we can talk to each other now without all the bang heading... *looks at hole in desk* Very nice indeed...

Supposing, unbeknown to yourself, Oman had claimed cop on page 20. Your avatar-claim thing would then make you look odd and contradictory.

and that is why I also put that little tiny logical-powerrole hint. When I posted that, the contradictory point was just hovering on the tip of my mind, thus I had only a tiny bit of fear of it happening. I figured I would be able to finish reading without anything big happening. Apparently I was wrong and so I had to keep pushing I did not claim so I could catch up. In a sense that made me look a lot more scummy then a simple contradiction. (Even though its a big contradiction...)

Scum are always more likely to target claimed power roles over unclaimed townies, unless they are playing wifom or going anti-player. You did not improve your survival chances by claiming vanilla.

It was more for the vig actually. Because Oman was playing poorly I did not know if the Vig (Who you all say we shoudl keep alive, thus I am sure he will be here tonight) would target him for any past actions. So I claimed town in hopes he would not target me. (Even though a claim is not proof, I had hoped it would help.)

I wasn't so worried about the mafia, although I am always in fear of them having a power role in these big games, like tracker or RB or something. And they may find it useful to leave the Vig alive and go after a more useful role (I.e. Cop, doc, etc...) and thus would hit an unknown towny.

"Top suspect"? If you are now accepting my comments regarding the vanilla claim, then what is your case against me?

I meant my "top suspect then" not top suspect now. Simple misunderstanding ^^

I didn't even notice you had a title... wow... Cool I want one =D Maybe... Crap-logic Korlash, The impenetrable wall, Mr. Mundane.... The rock!

*skips the number part*

I still hope Dybeck says something more useful then "I am not the most likely lynch now yay!" (Summed up, he did not actually say that...)

Also I still want to know exactly how it was my fault the scum hunting was held up... Thats the only part of your guy's attacks on me I cannot see... Perhaps you can help me out there Vollkan...

[vollkan]

It was more for the vig actually. Because Oman was playing poorly I did not know if the Vig (Who you all say we shoudl keep alive, thus I am sure he will be here tonight) would target him for any past actions. So I claimed town in hopes he would not target me. (Even though a claim is not proof, I had hoped it would help.)

I wasn't so worried about the mafia, although I am always in fear of them having a power role in these big games, like tracker or RB or something. And they may find it useful to leave the Vig alive and go after a more useful role (I.e. Cop, doc, etc...) and thus would hit an unknown towny.

Orig has been ordered not to NK, punishable by his own lynching. He won't NK. Thus, I don't get why you would be concerned about Orig.

*skips the number part*

I really wish you would not be so ridiculous about my numbers.

I'll summarise it: your "plan" would, at best, put us in LYLO and at it's VERY likely worst cause us to lose. It is horribly anti-town.

Also I still want to know exactly how it was my fault the scum hunting was held up... Thats the only part of your guy's attacks on me I cannot see... Perhaps you can help me out there Vollkan...

If you are town, your blunder created a cause for suspicion which has now consumed a considerable amount of time and discussion and has progressed us nowhere, other than having more suspicion on on.

[shaft.ed]

Korlash thanks for the long thoughtful post. I don't have time for a reply right now, but I am glad to see things moving again.

Not to keep hammering you but to answer this:

Also I still want to know exactly how it was my fault the scum hunting was held up...

Basically the "vanilla incident" didn't need to happen and it was a distraction. And if you are town, it's drawn a lot of suspicion your way that didn't need to be there.

[Korlash]

Basically the "vanilla incident" didn't need to happen and it was a distraction. And if you are town, it's drawn a lot of suspicion your way that didn't need to be there.

Actually, because I am a replacement I am more or less an unknown, so I think all the discussion involving me was very much needed. This way, come day 3, if I am still alive we all now have things to go on. Also, I gained a lot of knowledge about you guys (mostly Vollkan and Shaft.ed but some of Gem too.) So overall, while it is not good to put me in that much "danger" it is very much needed for me to "talk." So having some subject, my claim as it were, that involved me is, in my opinion, a good thing. Granted i did not have to go that far, and I didn't HAVE to actually make myself so suspicious (as I said I did not think it would go over like that ><) But i still feel, even if it does not look like we got anywhere, you all now have readings on me, and I now have first hand knowledge of you. This close to a deadline it may seem unhelpful, but I still appreciate it.

Orig has been ordered not to NK, punishable by his own lynching. He won't NK. Thus, I don't get why you would be concerned about Orig.

No offense but if someone "ordered" me to not do a night action it wouldn't automatically mean I won't do it. You are basically saying "If you NK we will automatically lose this game." Because you are saying you will lynch a towny tomorrow if he NKs and thus I think we lose. So if I were him I would not take you seriously. Also, If I have a strong suspicion of someone I would NK them as vig anyways. If I hit town, then we go to lynch or lose. But if I hit mafia then we have a chance. It's a gamble, but some people may see it as a good move. Plus I do not see Originality as the best person to put my trust in keeping his word. So yeah, I am afraid he is going to NK. And I will be afraid no matter what he says.

I'll summarise it: your "plan" would, at best, put us in LYLO and at it's VERY likely worst cause us to lose. It is horribly anti-town.

Well it's true lynching me would put us close to LYLO seeing as how two townies will die. But I have already told you I no longer think the same I did before. So I see no reason to defend my "plan" at all. Your right, my death would not benefit the town. Thus... My reason for wanting to live! =D (This is all more of a joke and I am not trying to defend my "selfish" acts here. But I do truly believe my plan to suck and thus will not defend it anymore.)

I can see your point then about the Scum hunting. Thanks that was eating away at my head like all day at work and I think I messed up three orders because of it... Huh... I really need to do more with my life...

Still, I stand by my reasoning. I may not like how the info we got makes me look, but I am glad I can now say I "know" some of you guys firsthand, and not just with back posts.

The downside is now I really have nothing to go on but my suspicions of Dybeck... ;_; so I am back where I started!

Also I forgot to do this last post so

Unvote:

><

[vollkan]

Actually, because I am a replacement I am more or less an unknown

No. Oman existed.

I have several other things to say, but I need to read over a few things first.

Also,

Korlash, I have a question: If, hypothetically, I was lynched today and came up town, who should Orig vig tonight?

[Lucienne]

From what I have read/understand theres some big Orig discussion. The way I see it is, if he is mafia, then the actual Vig will kill him tonight. if he is a vig, then he has a chance to kill a mafia tonight. So either way it looks to me a good idea to keep him alive... But I may change my mind come another... 400 posts under my belt... ^^'

I'm puzzled that you don't even consider a no kill.

I don't see the advantages of claiming either.

Really not liking the vollkan hate from Korlash either. It seems a bit OMGUS. Nor shaft.ed. Seriously, what HAVE they done that is remotely anti-town (in a large way)?

That being said I think he is either the Vig or mafia and I won't say which i think is more likely.

Why not an SK? I don't see at all why that's discluded.

Dybeck has pinged my scumdar more and more. I'm not happy with his "Yay, people aren't thinking about lynching me!" attitude. Surely, such a desire to survive would be more evident from scum than from town.

Sorry for the short reply, should have more stuff up later.

[Korlash]

Korlash, I have a question: If, hypothetically, I was lynched today and came up town, who should Orig vig tonight?

Well the obvious answer would be me wouldn't it. Just based on all my bad attacks on you. But if your asking for my most likely scum, Dybeck is top right now(Not that he is anywhere near vote worthy yet, he is just top of a really small list)

I'm puzzled that you don't even consider a no kill.

I don't see the advantages of claiming either.

Really not liking the vollkan hate from Korlash either. It seems a bit OMGUS. Nor shaft.ed. Seriously, what HAVE they done that is remotely anti-town (in a large way)?

I already said my opinions about the Vig actions tonight. Point of the matter is the quote you used is not how I think anymore. Besides, the point I was making was only about whether we should or should not keep him alive and that had nothing to do with a kill or not kill action. It merely had to do with a "chance of hitting a mafia."

Also the Shaft.ed/Vollkan "hate" as you put it stemmed from a small bit of paranoia and a big misunderstanding I blew out of proportion. I have already commented on that too.

Why not an SK? I don't see at all why that's discluded.

It has always been my problem when it comes to a night killing role I tend to lean towards the town side.(especially when they claim Vig) I consider an SK in the "mafia" side of my quote. The only thing I didn't see then is if there is an SK then there is most likely no Vig and thus my quote is incomplete.

No. Oman existed.

Yes,

Oman

existed. But as Gem pointed out I cannot speak for him. You can say "Oman was scummy when he did this this and this! Answer why he did those!" All I can say is "Um... I have no idea..." and thus your stuck. So even though you have a lot to go on, you had nothing on me personally. I mean if I had acted %100 pro-town it wouldn't even matter how Oman had been playing because you would have no evidence against me. So I always think a replacement needs to get heard.

[vollkan]

Korlash, I have a question: If, hypothetically, I was lynched today and came up town, who should Orig vig tonight?

Well the obvious answer would be me wouldn't it. Just based on all my bad attacks on you. But if your asking for my most likely scum, Dybeck is top right now(Not that he is anywhere near vote worthy yet, he is just top of a really small list)

The bad attacks would make you look scummy, yes. To make my question clearer: From your own perspective, who would you want NKed in the scenario I described?

It has always been my problem when it comes to a night killing role I tend to lean towards the town side.

(especially when they claim Vig)

I consider an SK in the "mafia" side of my quote. The only thing I didn't see then is if there is an SK then there is most likely no Vig and thus my quote is incomplete.

"especially when they claim vig"...because there are so many other pro-town nightkilling roles.

I would also like a game reference for your "always been my problem" thing. Thanks.

Yes, Oman existed. But as Gem pointed out I cannot speak for him. You can say "Oman was scummy when he did this this and this! Answer why he did those!" All I can say is "Um... I have no idea..." and thus your stuck. So even though you have a lot to go on, you had nothing on me personally. I mean if I had acted %100 pro-town it wouldn't even matter how Oman had been playing because you would have no evidence against me. So I always think a replacement needs to get heard.

Divorcing yourself from your very scummy predecessor entirely. Interesting. I need to think.