Mini 1804: Poker Mafia (Game Over)

[RedCoyote]

Any chance of a real wagon developing?

I feel this, but I think we both know you're part of the problem right now, BBT.

[Something_Smart]

I'm going to make this a short post, because this is a pet peeve of mine. It's not really alignment indicative, but I just want to call you out for this so you don't do it again (at least when responding to me). You asked about my Persivul read, I told you that he was my top town read and that I previously stated that. Instead of you either doing a quick ISO search of me for the name "Persivul" or even just saying (whether or not it's actually true that you took the time to look), "I didn't see that, could you explain again, please?", you double down and and make this untrue statement effectively calling me a liar.

Sorry I actually did search your ISO for "pers" but I somehow missed that line that you addressed directly to him instead of saying "persivul is my top townread".
In fact, I didn't think you were a liar; I thought that you had formed that read but never got around to expressing it. Which is partially true because you didn't really explain it until this post. Anyway, I thought those posts were good too (91 and 92, anyway; I didn't love 93), but even a strong, clear and well-explained push can come from scum (in fact in a vacuum those seem like the pushes scum are more wont to make), so I still don't see what was "extremely towny" about them.

@SS

– can you explain why looking through you ISO I see exactly what Infinity called out RC for – posts that look like just being made for the sake of it as opposed to actual scum-hunting? Who are your scum reads and why are you not voting one of them?

Probably because I've been gathering thoughts and not sharing many of them. Ftr I think posting for the sake of it (as long as one is actually hunting scum) is actually a minor towntell, and I can't imagine that you think I haven't been scumhunting.
My top scumreads are you and FA_Q2. I haven't voted yet because I don't have a strong read on any of the leading wagons (MM, RC, Persivul)... my strongest is a mild townlean on RC.

[RedCoyote]

MoI does this thing that's so annoying, and I'm sure he's heard me made this argument to him before, where when he gets a scumread on someone, suddenly every post that person makes and everything that say is scummy. I detest that philosphy on scumhunting and absolutely think it's harmful for townies to have. Scum are scum, there's no denying that. Scum can make townie posts though, you know? I don't really want to start up a political discussion on this, only to point it out because he's doing it here and I've found it to be his standard for scumhunting. Like, even if scum were to say something accurate, that would still be scummy just by virtue of the fact that it's coming from scum. I absolutely do not take that approach to scumhunting. All players, regardless of alignment, say stuff that is townie/scummy, and it's the job of the town-aligned players to parse that and make a judgment call on whether or not a certain person is being more or less helpful to the town. It's not about choosing one specific person and saying, "This post is scummy because X, and their next post is scummy because Y, and their next post is scummy because Z..." I don't know if it's more or less effective in getting your will done, only people that do it can speak to that, but I just wanted to lay it out there as something that makes my eyes roll every time I see it. There's something that a friend and fellow scummer of mine named SpyreX says about this, and he even carries it in his signature. "I always lynch scum... sometimes they're just not mafia." In other words, people can say scummy/townie stuff regardless of their alignment. It's not helpful to, once you have a scumread, paint everything they say as scummy. It's the black-and-white, with-me-or-against-me attitude that harms the town much more than it helps.

Further, I don't think it's productive at this time to go wall for wall with MoI over his weak arguments. If enough people are sadistic enough to request that I do, then I suppose we'll carry on the charade, but I should forewarn you that MoI likes to scumread me in virtually every game we play together regardless of our individual alignments. I maintain, apparently to his chagrin, that I don't find him particularly scummy at this time, but I doubt engaging him will do much to change that or change his read on me right now. I suspect as time passes he'll either find something actually substantial or flips will necessarily force his hand other places.

Right now I think it's in the town's best interest to continue broader discussions amongst everyone, especially people that aren't named lane, Persivul and Infinity (the three players with the most posts) and continue playing the Poker mechanic (preferably more quickly).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Probably because I've been gathering thoughts and not sharing many of them. Ftr I think posting for the sake of it (as long as one is actually hunting scum) is actually a minor towntell, and I can't imagine that you think I haven't been scumhunting.
My top scumreads are you and FA_Q2. I haven't voted yet because I don't have a strong read on any of the leading wagons (MM, RC, Persivul)... my strongest is a mild townlean on RC.

I have concerns given that it took you this long to actually commit to a scum-read on players. Reading through your ISO looks very much like planting the seeds on many players to later be used as as scum reading as necessary which is scum-oriented play.

Why are you required to vote a top wagon? That's an absurd notion to float I have trouble understanding that notion as coming from a Town perspective.

[lane0168]

Ok magna, why don't you tell me how scum would make a money dumping plan? Make it fit what has happened, but make it make sense as me being scum.

I'm glad the mm takes one post of mine when I have the most posts by far, and says ain't ya got nothing better to say?

That's super Townie

And jfc are you really still going on about me not liking the mm having the wrong numbers? Because I specifically said I'd assume that was an honest mistake by him. And that it doesn't matter to the overall picture.

And I agree with rc. I would probably never listen to you.

And what are you townreading the mm. Cause some people town read me? Your case, as far as I thought, was based on us being partners.

I'm not sure I follow your scum reading of me now.

Pedit. Holy walls. Guess I'll be back for that in a bit

[RedCoyote]

One thing that actually might be productive though is for S_S, Infinity and myself to revisit that one thing all three of us were talking about, just to clear it up. S_S is right in that I did misunderstand Infinity earlier.

As far as I can tell, you think MoI is scum because his case on you is a stretch, but I don't necessarily find stretching to be scummy. I think it could also be a sign of confirmation bias or trying to explain a gut read.

Rereading this comment in the context that Infinity actually meant it in, I absolutely agree that stretching is not inherently scummy. That said, I don't feel hesitant to dismiss stretches, especially early on in the game, and be upfront about the fact that I am dismissing them as stretches. Something like that has to be nipped in the bud, especially with a player like MoI. Unfortunately, and as I could've predicted, it didn't placate MoI and, instead, he did what he always does (see: 302) and just turned it into me doing something scummy because he already scumreads me (and this is where your suggestion of confirmation bias probably comes into play, Infinity).

What makes MoI worse is that you and I both know, Infinity, if I hadn't addressed his earlier attacks as stretches, he would've called me out for ignoring him or flying under the radar or some other such offense. As I'm sure you can appreciate, that puts me in a frustrating position.

I don't want this to appear as though I'm being patronizing to him, but I fear it will if only because you aren't privy to our history and the fact that we both know one another and how the other person plays. For that, I hope you can just take my word on, because I can't really "prove" that other than to point you to my wiki. Anyway, I hope that clarifies things a bit more.

[Something_Smart]

Probably because I've been gathering thoughts and not sharing many of them. Ftr I think posting for the sake of it (as long as one is actually hunting scum) is actually a minor towntell, and I can't imagine that you think I haven't been scumhunting.
My top scumreads are you and FA_Q2. I haven't voted yet because I don't have a strong read on any of the leading wagons (MM, RC, Persivul)... my strongest is a mild townlean on RC.

I have concerns given that it took you this long to actually commit to a scum-read on players. Reading through your ISO looks very much like planting the seeds on many players to later be used as as scum reading as necessary which is scum-oriented play.

Why are you required to vote a top wagon? That's an absurd notion to float I have trouble understanding that notion as coming from a Town perspective.

I'm not required to vote a top wagon, I just think sorting out those reads is my top priority.
Also, none of my scumreads are that strong yet. I'm still in the midst of working out this game; don't worry, I'll commit to plenty of reads in due time.

[RedCoyote]

S_S, you mentioned that one of my posts looked "suck-up-y". I disagree, but I understand how you got that impression. With that in mind, do you think Infinity is a town or scum lean for you personally?

[RedCoyote]

FA, q, BBT, and Fire are all on the "need to post" list. I do not have solid reads on any of them. I don't care what they post about, but they need to just talk.

[Something_Smart]

S_S, you mentioned that one of my posts looked "suck-up-y". I disagree, but I understand how you got that impression. With that in mind, do you think Infinity is a town or scum lean for you personally?

I don't really see how that observation relates to the question, but I'm leaning town on Infinity because his recent posting has been pretty good.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'll be here as soon as I can.

Apologies for my lack of posting.

[Persivul]

OK, so I'm kind of fucked. I have a good enough hand to call, but don't want to call just to see a raise. So, I was holding off calling until the 48 hours from the last action had almost passed. But, it just hit me that my call will be an action, and reset the clock to 48 hours for the people who are still in the hand.

[Persivul]

Fire Assassin and qubixes: if you're folding or raising can you do so in the next couple of hours?

[Persivul]

Lane is also listed as needing to act but he should be out of money so I think that's an oversight.

[RedCoyote]

Lane is also listed as needing to act but he should be out of money so I think that's an oversight.

Mod

, can we get a ruling on this? If the player has no money, they do not have to make any actions, right?

[lane0168]

Or is it?

fold

[Persivul]

-If a player loses all their money, they remain in the game but will no longer receive a poker hand.

[lane0168]

I bought back in, in exchange for being gayer

[lane0168]

Fuck. Hated. Lol.

[lane0168]

I didn't really. I don't have a hand

[Something_Smart]

I bought back in, in exchange for being gayer

Fuck. Hated. Lol.

LOL

[lane0168]

Actions need to be 12 hours or next post. Whichever is greater. Or something like that

[Persivul]

I bought back in, in exchange for being gayer

I'm not sure that's possible...

[Persivul]

Actions need to be 12 hours or next post. Whichever is greater. Or something like that

If we're going to use 48 hours, then only bets and raises should count as actions. Folds and calls shouldn't.

[lane0168]

Yes, or just make every hand 48 hours. If you can't act, then your hand is folded. With a "call any" button lol