New York 194: Guns N' Roses Mafia! (Day 8)

[Slandaar]

This seems rather fake.

I am interested to know your opinion on the 'red flags' explanation.

[Slandaar]

Hey Slandaar. It's been explained by Boonskie (#75) & Egg (#99), & I think I get what they're trying to explain. I think I would compare it to say video mafia which I have more experience in, where a scum is more likely to say "what do you want from me" or something along them lines to appeal to town or to try to seem town after a possible slip or something weird that they've said.

I wanted to know your opinion now it has been explained. You somewhat agree?

BZZZZ. Wrong.

Actually he is right.

What do you think a vote on some random person for a pointless reason is doing?
(I see this is covered later somewhat)

Hmm . That was RVS, how did you develop an opinion on those 2 posts so quickly?

[Slandaar]

Slandaar,

What reason is there not to have an RVS vote on when it's 11 to lynch?

The point is: I see nothing wrong with unvoting when the vote is pointless. That said you didn't answer the question; What reason is there to have an RVS vote at the point he unvoted? (when it clearly achieved nothing).

Reactions to RVS votes, and the way the RVS reasons are phrased, is the way I see most games move into the proper nitty-gritty. How would you move the game forward, if you disagree?

Do I disagree that most games start with RVS? no.

RVS was short in this game. Jam effectively ended it with his post which did not contain a vote amusingly.

What has this got to do with anything?

but I didn't see him bothering to even answer his own questions.

Why would I do that?

@Irao

Quote posts in which I make "a half-hearted attempt to make it look like I'm scum hunting".

Are you feeling the pressure, jam?

Iraon, can you explain the pressure thing?
(I have my opinion on this but want to hear what you say)

Fragger:

Hey Slandaar. It's been explained by Boonskie (#75) & Egg (#99), & I think I get what they're trying to explain. I think I would compare it to say video mafia which I have more experience in, where a scum is more likely to say "what do you want from me" or something along them lines to appeal to town or to try to seem town after a possible slip or something weird that they've said.

I wanted to know your opinion now it has been explained. You somewhat agree?

[Slandaar]

Slandaar why did you just answer those questions with more questions

I asked the questions and was not given actual answers hence the questions still stand and are repeated.

i expected a clean town game like in ice cream

why do i not get a sense of that here?

I will be playing differently here. Go and meta me properly if you find this concerning.

what do you think about fragger currently?

Don't Know.

I don't mind the unvoting so much, but there were plenty of possible people who could have taken a vote. Pick a reason and commit. I think people should take positions early so they can be challenged on them. Town's job is to use their vote to sort.

So, you made a bad word choice, it's easier if you just say so instead of going around the point.

I don't even remotely agree Jam ended it at that point. In no scenario is RVS over when multiple people haven't even posted.

This doesn't have anything to do with anything does it?

When will you commit to a single read? Here's two for you from me:

Your turn.

and who would you be comfortable with townreading right now?

I do things in my own time.

I am happy with how things are currently progressing though so will let you know soon.

[Slandaar]

Creature, you said "here we go" on Page 1. I was mostly trying to figure out if that had to do with anything specific or if it was the game starting in general. And if it was general, was it meant with excitement for the game starting or was it more of a concern for something that may have been coming.

Yeah, it was about the game starting in general. I wasn't that excited though.

Hello Creature.

but I didn't see him bothering to even answer his own questions.

Why would I do that?

[Slandaar]

I mean that you could share what do you think rather than asking some of the questions.

My priority is to find scum not to let you know what I think. To find scum I shall ask questions. Why didn't you ask me my opinion(s) if you find the opinion(s) I chose not to post important?

[Slandaar]

I found the reasoning behind Mafiaturtle's vote odd, who explicitly states that they are trying to pressure someone? Doesn't that defeat its purpose, if its purpose was to learn something about jam? So I wished to continue this train of thought, but Mafiaturtle seems to be outright ignoring me, how rude!

I thought that was the case (well similar) just wanted to hear you say it

Let me go back a bit...

Your turn.

Iraon is town

VOTE: Creature

[Slandaar]

So I read irao's ISO. One particular post is interesting to me, which has been mentioned by fragger, yet not really been answered when irao replied to fragger (315)

Hey, Mafiaturtle. How are you going to Pressure jam if you aren't voting him?

How can you possibly say this when

you weren't voting me either

?

Its an extension of:

I found the reasoning behind Mafiaturtle's vote odd, who explicitly states that they are trying to pressure someone? Doesn't that defeat its purpose, if its purpose was to learn something about jam? So I wished to continue this train of thought, but Mafiaturtle seems to be outright ignoring me, how rude!

I hope your mind is now clear.

[Slandaar]

@Mod

VC Please.

Also SirCakez I don't really care about people's particular reads on me. but it got the game moving again from a dead stand still. Nothing was going on so asking questions to both Performer & KAAG sprung some life into the game.

VOTE: Iraonavp

What is this Fragger?

Iraon is town.

Why are you voting him?

[Slandaar]

I read your nonsense but you should have realized something. Your opinion should have revised at least slightly more likely majorly.

So, try again.

[Slandaar]

Yet yours hasnt...

Those in glass houses...

Your response is interesting.

Why would mine change?

Seems fair, but I think you could've commented on some things you find strange.

Alright I will say something.

It's strange that you care so much about kops vote.

It's also strange how Fragger was lost earlier - he seemed out of synch with the town, pestered for an explanation of the 'red flags', then didn't provide his opinion on it after the explanation was posted without being chased.

[Slandaar]

are you an alt?

Did you think he is an Alt Guy?

[Slandaar]

VOTE: Drixx

Two stones, one scum

Why do you think Drixx is scum?

These 2 posts aren't pleasing me. I think my vote on Creature looks like it'll be staying. If you can give me a case on why Sircakes is scum, and if I can find something within it that I can agree with, I might reconsider my vote.

Yes, obviously, if someone makes a good point against another you should reconsider your vote. Thank you for stating that. Very town.

[Slandaar]

If you notice, SirCakez is only scum reading easy mislynch targets.

This is never a good argument.

Ness - Typical panicking. Well, so far his behavior matches with his scum play, but I need to take a look at his town behavior and see what matches more.
Jam - Newbscum for me. I see hesitation on his initial posts to accuse someone, I also think he's pretending to be stupid. His vote on Golden seems sheepy (sheeping Snarky).

I point this out to help you not to accuse.

[Slandaar]

What do you think the "Two stones, one scum" means?

I have no clue.

[Slandaar]

Creature, I know I didn't explicitly say I would like you to explain what you mean, but clearly, I would.

[Slandaar]

Drixx didn't pretend to claim survivor.

UNVOTE: Creature
VOTE: Guy

I think this is better.

But like ... tell me if you're seriously going to wagon me for that before I read the 400 posts before my replace-in, because

it would be kind of dickish to have me catch up and read things just to be mislynched

.

When you replace in there is no rule stating you cannot be lynched. You knew there is that risk so I find this line very ugly. Maybe you should catch up and make yourself really obviously town and then no problem, right? I think this is actually a scum mentality but am debating it with myself.

Did you think you would be lynched for saying you are scum?

[Slandaar]

You were there the last time someone posed a lose/lose question to me as a "reaction test", and if you recall I pointed out that it was a trap and declined to answer, and I'm sure you recall how that turned out.

I don't remember it well enough to comment currently.

You think there is a 'lose' to answering the question 'no'?

You know Guy is lynchbait Slandaar, you were in Ice Cream. Not a very good vote.

I am quietly confident in my vote.

The town Slandaar I saw in the game with Titus, Ircher, BBT, Thor665, and Keyser - as well as the town Slandaar I played against last year - were very reasonable. How are you reading that Fragg is putting in a nonsense case against ira?

Which points do you think are actually good?

[Slandaar]

Reading the thread is a good starting point.

[Slandaar]

Obviously but 21 pages is a bit hard to sift through wouldn't you agree?

I do not agree. You just read the thread and after 21 pages you should have a starting point. What is difficult about that?

[Slandaar]

Having 21 people to read

It's only 20. But on point - I don't see how that makes you special?

[Slandaar]

What I have in my notes are this regarding Frag's points against ira: 279 , which was looking at pgs 2-11 at the time. Since then, ira has not been convincingly town.

That isn't really relevant. We are talking about what Frag wrote. Just get the points Frag made (quote Fragger) which you feel are good.

[Slandaar]

Like Kop's #557 & #559, & I feel it's coming from a town viewpoint while explaining why the No Lynch is not happening.

Interesting.

I felt the opposite.

The best he can post is about the nolynch nonsense and basically suggest certain players, yourself included, were over-reacting to it when lets be honest you didn't.

We're not No Lynching. That's a atrocious idea.

Whilst I agree that it is a atrocious idea to no lynch, especially day one, I don't agree with jumping on him for it.

Were you 'jumping on him for it'?

Also can you answer this:

Yet yours hasnt...

Those in glass houses...

Your response is interesting.

Why would mine change?

[Slandaar]

Also I don't think Drixx is scum off one joke. His play IMO has been similar to a previous newbie we played together where he was the IC & town.

I'm still fairly comfortable with Drixx being closer to my town circle. His play is similar to town play I've seen before from him. On a side note though, I haven't had a chance to experience scum Drixx, so that view may be diluted by that.

I find this repetition weird - Not sure the point of it Drixx had done near enough nothing between the two. I also dislike that both have a form of disclaimer.

I have a theory: Fragger & Drixx are both scum.

[Slandaar]

That's a loaded question, the one about jumping on the no lynch thing. Regardless of my answer you'll be able to spin it & fit it to a certain agenda. Rather I answer yes or no, it won't be alignment indicative.

I mean the fact is there is no agenda. You were not 'jumping on him' were you? you didn't think it was a good idea to tell Kop? You like his very standard theory which is completely null (and forgets you can lynch scum)? Mmm.

As for your opinions changing, do you not reevaluate as the game progresses? I've reevaluated on a few people. Just because I still believe Ira is scummy as hell, doesn't make me wrong. That's my opinion. I'm allowed to be wrong, that's the game of Mafia.

This has nothing to do with anything. You told me my opinion should have changed and I am asking you why? This does not have any resemblance to an answer to the actual question.

Just as such, how you're wrong for a second time on my alignment; as you were the previous game we played together where you deah tunneled me. Both games I've been town, and your read on me has proven to be bad. I don't fault you for that, cause that's your opinion & you're allowed to be wrong. Drixx has played similar to what I've seen before as town, so I'm currently reading him slight town for it.

I don't remember much about that. Sometimes I am wrong though, yes, it happens unfortunately.

Regardless, I've came to take your opinion & reads Slandaar with a grain of salt.

[Slandaar]

Answer what? Did you even ask me that question?

I did not.

VOTE: Iraonavp

Actually not contributing a lot to peoples posts, and is just basically saying this is town this is scum, without actually engaging into the content that is here. If your failing to actually contribute to posts that you are quoting, you can't say anything incriminating or leaving your self up to possible contradictions.

[Slandaar]

VOTE: Kop

I will post properly tomorrow.

[Slandaar]

Sorry don't feel like posting at the moment.

Reubus lynch is OK. I think he claims PR as scum but I can be wrong on that; was unsure about Ness and Reubus I kind of believe his story but not enough. Prefer Kop/Ozgin/Guy/Fragger/Drixx.

[Slandaar]

You ever go to classes, then to work, then come home and get hammered, and then wake up with an awful head cold, and look at the mafia game you're in, and see the game went from like 3 or 4 pages to like 8 pages, and those 4-5 pages were just two people arguing about being defensive, one person shitposting, and like three or four people chiming in from the fray (or at least that's what my sick mind clung to), and like you ISO like two or three people together to observe an argument, and you think someone is playing very similarly to how you played scum literally every game in the past?

Yeah, that's my morning so far. VOTE: N e s s.

I think Ness plays like how I play scum, quoting and attempting to refute literally every post thrown at him. The whole talk about defensiveness is kinda stupid, but it also rings true that most nervous scum see scum reads on them or even statements made loosely against them to be excessively detrimental to their success. In other words, N e s s is probably going to quote me, say why he thinks I'm wrong, and that's his way of defending himself when he really never had too much pressure on him to begin with.

Also, all of the talk about "meritable day 1" (I think the word credible is more fitting in this instance) is

bullshit.

Every day

is "meritable."

Every post

is "meritable."

Every fucking argument in a post

is "meritable." You're on a forum, playing a forum game where you get information by

writing posts to each other

. It doesn't matter if you wrote the post "two irl days" into the game, it doesn't matter if you wrote the post "on the first in game day," it just doesn't matter, every post reveals information about every player, every time. Even though Golden Robster is just shitposting, for example, you can argue that the shitposting is just an earnest effort to move pressure around the player pool, or that the shitposting can come in handy later if they randomly stop doing it or if they do it the entire game. All posts, sooner or later, tell us something about a player. If anything, it at least shows us how a player plays the game, and meta albeit, that's information.

/end rant

I found this ridiculously over the top. Seems like scum trying to be charismatic rather than genuine town ranting.

[Slandaar]

Interestingly enough you want to lynch some of the more active players, but don't have any reasons for Ozgin or Guy.

Guy, Kop, Ozgin are not some of the more active players. You mean yourself and Drixx

Besides that I have reasons just hadn't posted them.

[Slandaar]

VOTE: Aristo

[Slandaar]

Fire why are you scum so much, in games that you and I are in? Lol

This is exactly what you said in that game Pisskop took over, and guess what?
Way to not learn from past experiences bro.

Holy fallacious reasoning, Batman. The role that someone had in a prior game has absolutely no bearing on what role they were assigned this game.

He didn't suggest it does.

?

[Slandaar]

@Slandaar - Give me one sentence why I should vote Aristophanes

He is scum.

Have you looked at Kop's (Aristo) ISO?

[Slandaar]

Guy is town.

[Slandaar]

OK I will post content.

Why should a VT without much to add be worried about being taken out first?

A VT shouldn't be worried about anything, they should be doing the best they can to eat a nightkill

. But anyway, it still could be scum claiming an easy role.

The first point being made points to bugs being scum. (Bolded)
Therefore saying the second part makes no sense as he is implying the opposite!
(= scum)

[Slandaar]

Slandaar, my question was phrased in the sense that whoever we were talking about WAS a VT. He believed that person to be scum. So he answered the question about VTs first, used the word "but", and continued to hold his original position.

I understand what you are saying but I disagree and think there is a disconnect. If a VT shouldn't be worried about anything then that seems like reason to suspect him for not being a VT you need not add 'but still he could be scum'. The second implies the first point isn't an argument against. You could argue perhaps the first point about VT is just complete theory but I will go further and say: I highly highly doubt Kop who posted:

Actually not contributing a lot to peoples posts, and is just basically saying this is town this is scum, without actually engaging into the content that is here. If your failing to actually contribute to posts that you are quoting, you can't say anything incriminating or leaving your self up to possible contradictions.

Would think 'VT's shouldn't be worried about anything but that doesn't mean VT's are not worried about things'. I would expect him to jump on it to some extent.

Maybe I will post the larger argument against Kop (Aristo) ... I guess I have to

Most of Kop's content is theory and being helpful, trying to sound pro-town, while not actually posting content. I pulled him up on this here:

These 2 posts aren't pleasing me. I think my vote on Creature looks like it'll be staying. If you can give me a case on why Sircakes is scum, and if I can find something within it that I can agree with, I might reconsider my vote.

Yes, obviously, if someone makes a good point against another you should reconsider your vote. Thank you for stating that. Very town.

Sounds nice and pro-town but it alerted me to him.

He then focused on the no-lynch stuff way too much... (theory)

and is just basically saying this is town this is scum

His vote on Iraon is awful and then the question becomes why not DGB? why didn't he mention her?

Probably the best question (scumhunting) he asked he didn't follow up on which is also a negative for him. Lots of trying to be helpful + theory with a lack of actual content and the content he did post being very questionable.

I think the vote is good.

[Slandaar]

UNVOTE:

Hold on, I mixed him up with someone else.
VOTE: Aristophanes
Complete vanishing act on d2 and I wasn't townreading him on the first day. Based on Slandaar's behavior and what I've seen of Slandaar's town meta, I'm inclined to trust him. Fire's gradual behavior on d2 hasn't made him my top scumread anymore.

@Slandaar who are your other scumreads? Do you happen to share any on my list?

Prefer Kop/Ozgin/

Guy

/Fragger/Drixx.

Ozgin

Votes Jam
Votes Ness
Votes Creature
(Wanted to Vote) Reubus

Amazingly when wagons are on players/forming he always turns up with a case against them. It's magic. (well bar jam kinda but eh he has one for iraon too) + His overreaction and he seems like a good vote. Might explain Drixx/Fragger at some point.

[Slandaar]

@Slandaar - Give me one sentence why I should vote Aristophanes

Here is the funny thing about this sentence.

It is the first time he has actually tried to engage someone instead of just ISOing the person in question.

Coincidence perhaps.

[Slandaar]

Drixx link me to one of your scumgames I need to check something.

[Slandaar]

It's almost like every time I've made a case against someone, it's after I prodge and am not around for days at a time because I'm a lazy shitsack, and just forcing an interaction with someone to try to discern whether or not they're scummy is harder than just ISOing them and not liking their posts. Woah!

Everytime you are not around for days at a time because you are a lazy shitsack you return and just happen to think the latest wagon is scum and have a huge case on them! Woah!

Anyways, I still like Ira for scum, and yes, I'm going to ISO Fragger and then Drixx, but I'll probably only do Fragger for now because ISOing people, while it is more direct and effective and it makes more sense to judge someone based on their history rather than a few interactions with someone, is time consuming,

and takes at least half an hour to try to build a case against someone

. Pity.

Why are you trying to build cases against players Ozgin? Ozgin

You know. If you were town you could just read their ISO see if you suspect them and then vote a case is not required. Your cases are not having any effect on anything.

tl;dr - I'm lazy and ISOing people is easier for me to scumhunt rather than trying to force some interaction, and, to nobody's surprise, my next plan of action is to ISO Fragger.

No don't do that.

I would like to see an ISO on killthestory. Will you do that for me?

[Slandaar]

Mobile post - yeah, I'll do an ISO of killthestory, I wanna do a Drixx ISO first.

I look forward to it!

As far as building a case for everyone, I do have to do that, at least for me, because I don't like votes without explicit reason beyond, "they're scum, read their ISO."

OK that is fine but explain why you have a huge case with something like:

In 433, Creature says "Two stones, one scum" and votes for Drixx, which is some strange cryptic thing that has no apparent meaning.

How is this alignment indicative?

Innocent until proven guilty,

if I try to prove someone guilty

and it falls apart, then they are probably innocent. It works, I'm telling you.

Yes. I do get the impression you try to prove them guilty and when you can't they are innocent. Seems more like Guilty until proven innocent.

[Slandaar]

I disagree in theory

What exactly do you disagree with?

[Slandaar]

Drixx do you have reads?

[Slandaar]

Ozgin...

So I'm down to 314 in this ISO already and all I see is a lot of light shitposting, but posts like 110-112 and 108 before this point are sarcastic and sassy but they're still accurate. I'm pretty content with this ISO so far.

OK.

why are so defensive? clearly that was just a reaction test and joke post that i was making?

however now youre responding to me with memes? dont you realize how defensive that is?

great job you figured it out i'm José the taco vendor

how great job admitting your scum, what are you abilities? what do your tacos do specifically scum?

This is an accurate post? how exactly was it accurate?

happiness is a scumtell

Same as above. How is this accurate? You actually think Happiness is a scumtell?

429 is a naked vote with no reasoning, not even loosely discernible from the context surrounding the posts. This is different than some of his previous votes, that either came with a quote (implying some reason) or at least made sense with the context surrounding the vote (usually the previous 2-5 posts or so). People were talking about SirCakez a little before this vote on him, but opinions were tossed and nothing was really brought up against him. This just strikes me as weird.

Don't care for this paragraph basically says nothing.

714 is a kinda dickish post. I mean, this was in response to what I assume is Ira's 713 (the post immediately before kts's), but ira was actually making a decent point about being active, even as a replacement, rather than just trying to back out of putting in effort and blaming the fact that you have a lot to catch up on. Was this supposed to be a defense of Drixx, then? Because that's who iraon's 713 was aimed at. This is just strangely abrasive, especially against a valid point against Drixx.

The whole sequence not just responding to the one post I would assume.

786 - No, stop that. Even when we're going for a shitty last-minute lynch on an apathetic player, quick hammering is bad, there's no town motivation in rushing a lynch, regardless of how stupid you think it is.

Nothing here.

829 is blatantly useless. Indirect ad hominem attacks benefit nobody.

Annoying not scummy is worth a note.

890 made me deja vu back to 786, I actually fucking refreshed my ISO page on this stupid and bad post.

Same as previous.

This post made me think back to when a certain player said responding to posts with memes was defensive, and furthermore scummy. Who said that again? Oh yeah.

Although in this post where he reuses the image, it actually kinda makes sense.

Different scenarios. But - you didn't seem to want to say that you find this contradictory?

At least he can admit to playing like a shitlord, too.

Eh Nothing here.

All in all, despite a few discrepancies, I think KTS is actually a relatively townie player this game. A bit of an asshole, yeah, but it kinda reminds me of House or ABR's styles of being an ass, but being a correct ass.

What is he correct about?

Really have no idea how your conclusion ended up as 'relatively townie' with the comments you made it kind of makes the comments pointless?

[Slandaar]

You're smarter than this Egg. So that means you're either being stubborn, or you're scum.

The idiot ball thing makes sense Drixx but you think you know Egg well enough to say this?

Ummm... you haven't played with me in a really long time Egg.

I've moved beyond feeling like I have to be perfectly honest and moral and such in mafia. It's a game that by its very nature encourages people to lie, regardless of alignment.

Your meta on me is out of date. Check me out in Mafiaception for recent town, and I'll be glad to link you to my most recent couple scum wins.

I'm not the Drixx you remember from like a year ago.

I think not. You think he knows you well enough that he shouldn't scumread you? your above post suggests otherwise.

[Slandaar]

That said, I don't particularly like your lynch anymore, everyone should just sheep me and lynch Aristo.

[Slandaar]

Don't have much time but will be back later...

This is regarding 1055 in which Slandarr makes a case on my slot based on Kop's play.

First off, his argument begins arguing not that I'm scum,

but that I'm not a VT

, as VTs shouldn't be worried about what they say.
This is PR/Scum hunting, and I dislike how strongly it feels like the former.
I don't even think the post he quoted looks relevant to the argument he's making, but I may be missing something contextual about it. Regardless, PR Hunting is bad.

That is not my argument.

Bugs claimed VT. Kop was talking about his claim. I was talking about Kops opinion on Bugs claim.

Which part is PR hunting exactly?

The second quote from Kop he makes is Kop staying open to positions form others, rather than being tunnel visioned upon his current target. Slandarr makes a sarcastic remark in response, and says it's empty posting. I disagree and think it looks like a townpost, and would even if I didn't know the alignment of the poster.

Its definitely not a townpost we will just disagree.

Theory talk isn't always bad, and Slandarr seems to be saying it is. I really don't think he has any solid case on this slot.

No, I am not. I am saying Kop was struggling to post real content. 80% of what he posted revolved around theory as it's much easier to post about theory (not alignment indicative) than actually (fake) scumhunting.

You disagree?

[Slandaar]

Slandarr, I suppose I misunderstood the whole of that post then?

I haven't read Kop so I don't have an answer.

You tell me. Maybe you should look into it if you think I am PR hunting, hm?

[Slandaar]

I'll agree with you that this is a possible scum slot based on this Iso, but I don't think it should be our main concern today.
I'd sheep this if a wagon were a thing though, without any issues.

Why is Snarky a bigger concern?

[Slandaar]

Egg was referring to a very specific ethical quandary I used to have with the game. I came to grips with it. There's a difference between big picture and fine detail.

You're smarter than this Egg. So that means you're either being stubborn, or you're scum.

2) You've seen me play well as scum. You hadn't even seen my town game until this game.

I find this interesting. Drixx can you explain to me exactly what is the idiotball you think he has made?

[Slandaar]

I'll agree with you that this is a possible scum slot based on this Iso, but I don't think it should be our main concern today.
I'd sheep this if a wagon were a thing though, without any issues.

Why is Snarky a bigger concern?

Egg was referring to a very specific ethical quandary I used to have with the game. I came to grips with it. There's a difference between big picture and fine detail.

You're smarter than this Egg. So that means you're either being stubborn, or you're scum.

2) You've seen me play well as scum. You hadn't even seen my town game until this game.

I find this interesting. Drixx can you explain to me exactly what is the idiotball you think he has made?

[Slandaar]

Yes I know.

What is the idiotball Egg made?

[Slandaar]

I suppose I will reword. What specifically do you think he wouldn't do if he were town. Why do you believe this (provide evidence from his town games)

[Slandaar]

I'll agree with you that this is a possible scum slot based on this Iso, but I don't think it should be our main concern today.
I'd sheep this if a wagon were a thing though, without any issues.

Why is Snarky a bigger concern?

I have a theory why you haven't answered this Aristo.

Perhaps you could at least attempt to though?

[Slandaar]

DGB, did you make a scumcase here?
All I remember is a case based on inactivity, which is null.

What is the case on Snarky other than being inactive which is null (your words)?

Lynch Aristo.

Be Happy.

[Slandaar]

We are talking at the time you made the statement, obviously.

Nothing you said explained why 'he shouldn't be the main concern today' over Snarky. Both are avoiding contribution for the most part.

His empty readslist was just that, and he hasn't really done much else. Not sorting the game is his biggest red flag.

Can argue the same on the Yume/Jam slot.

[Slandaar]

Right. But I can only do pressure on one at a time and I wanted/had it on Snarky at the time. Why would we want to split that Pressure?

It has nothing to do with pressure.

but I don't think it should be our main concern today.

Snarky is the main concern.
Yume shouldn't be.

Your reasoning for this is basically that Snarky has done very little, made an empty read list (after said comment so yeah). That's it.
Yume has done very little. Jam did very little.

You favour Snarky over Yume for no discernible reason. (I expect you are buddies).

[Slandaar]

Anyone else finding Oz hard to read?

He is scum.

VOTE: Aristo

[Slandaar]

Aristo's scumhunting summed up

'Hey guys!
There is this guy called Snarky. He doesn't post much. Must be scum!'

All I remember is a case based on inactivity, which is null.

Just lynch him.

[Slandaar]

Anyone else finding Oz hard to read?

He is scum.

VOTE: Aristo

"Oz is scum, so let's vote Ari!"

Great logic Slandarr.

I only have one vote.

Aristo's scumhunting summed up

'Hey guys!
There is this guy called Snarky. He doesn't post much. Must be scum!'

All I remember is a case based on inactivity, which is null.

Just lynch him.

I'm fairly certain I've done far more than this. Nice misrep.

Provide quotes.

[Slandaar]

Uggh.

We should just kill one of these two.

Repeat replacements are usually scum.

Ridiculous statement.

Provide evidence.

[Slandaar]

Ah, but Guy is not a Repeat Replacement yet.

We should just

kill one of these two

.

You were suggesting someone else then in the above?

Slandarr, have you seriously not noticed this trend? I realize it's not good scumhunting, as it is possible as either alignment. However, it is notable.

If it's a trend then it is good scumhunting surely?

It's not a trend.

Replacements are independent of each other. For multiple replacements to be more likely to be scum, replacing out has to be more likely to be scum than town.

This clearly isn't the case.

I'll also quote myself not tunneling or whatever you accused me of before and then didn't push me to follow up on.

Wasn't to do with tunneling.

You said activity is null and proceeded to vote and press the least active player in the game for no reason other than activity.

Your actions and words do not align.

[Slandaar]

Meh.

As I say, it was frustration, not a call for a legit push.

I don't care about that. You were making some weird technicality when you clearly were referring to Guy.

Activity is null, lack of scumhunting is not.

No Activity = No Scumhunting. The two correlate very strongly or should. He hadn't posted much so hadn't done much scumhunting. If he had done more his activity would have been... more.

I went back in my incorrect assertion about the replacement trend.

I see now.

Anything else you'd like to try throwing at me?
Because this is boring now and I've already addressed it all.

Well you could explain why you think I am a better vote than anyone else who has voted you considering I actually make arguments but I assume you have no (sensible) answer.

[Slandaar]

I don't understand why people necessarily see discrediting in a negative light. Why they

always

do that.

You are very wise.

Why then are you only voting the least active players?

Boon

Snarky

is not helping the town. Boon

Snarky

does not produce content. Boon

Snarky

is coasting by, laying under the radar more than anyone (save one or two) and Boon

Snarky

doesn't show that he's going to do anything differently.

I can apply this exact argument against your predecessor; Boon. So, 2/2 are (from your POV) town. Yet you intended to continue it today:

Okay, I'm back! Will have a read through today. Until then, since I don't expect any changes in behavior...

VOTE: GuyFawkes

The argument is very generic to begin with 'Blah Blah not helping' but I find it very suspicious how your scumhunting is as it is considering your wisdom.

I will look at your town meta later to see if this is your scumhunting normally. I suspect not.

[Slandaar]

I suppose you could explain why you voted Guy and not Yume in 1817. That would be good.

[Slandaar]

Slandaar I'm curious what your assessment is on Kuroi's town meta.

I found what I needed to find. My intuition was slightly wrong but we will see.

I voted Snarky and Guy because of their comments that are completely and in all aspects, unhelpful to the town. They coast. Snarky was not such an active player, but he wasn't even in the bottom three in activeness.

I know

why

you voted them. I even quoted your Snarky vote. I think he was the bottom in activeness personally but don't really need to argue that.

I swear to fucking God, I'm going to vote the next person who mentions "slots" in any way other than indicative of alignment. My predecessor was inactive, but I'm active. I scum hunt and I have reads.

I think you didn't get the point so I will make sure it's clear for everyone. I was referencing Boon who was inactive and Snarky who was inactive not You/Boon. The point was your argument applies to both, both are town from your POV, yet you continued into today voting Guy for the the same thing basically. Doesn't seem sensible to me.

Feel free. Guy was a safe choice to vote until I was caught up because considering the activity, I doubt there would be a lynch that fast. Also, I expected Guy to have posted. Now that he's being replaced, I'm not voting until I get to meet his replacement and have a chat.

Why not Yume instead of Guy?

[Slandaar]

I think Fragger is town.

Guy, from the time he was active, was simply a detriment to town and was not pro-town. No one disputes this.

I don't see him as a detriment but he wasn't pro-town either. Same with Snarky, he wasn't a detriment, he just wasn't particularly helpful but he did post reads and what he thought.

The point I have been making is there is no mention of anything relating to alignment. Coasting, being useless, not being pro-town you can word it how you like it doesn't change anything.

My intuition tells me someone who says:

I don't understand why people necessarily see discrediting in a negative light. Why they

always

do that.

Should know this though.

[Slandaar]

Anything that is not pro-town is inherently pro-scum. if you are coasting through, you are making it easier to go unnoticed in the day so you can kill in the night. This might just be scum-theory that we disagree on, but I have legitimate reason to scum-read people like Snarky, and Guy.

Things can't be neutral?

Coasting is weak but sounds good in theory. Why, after Reubus was lynched for not doing much or caring, would scum coast on D2?

@DGB and Slandaar: why do you think Fragger is town?

He is the most active and I just really don't know why people think he is scum. I know why I thought it but I don't see why others do and I don't like that.

DGB has the reputation she does for a reason. Nobody is interested in my scum reads, so if I'm going to sheep, it will be on DGB. Nothing more or less.

I am surprised.

I am interested in your reads Drixx. I even asked for them a long while back.

[Slandaar]

My initial thought was how coincidental it was that it was irao being claimed on after Frag's posting D1, but, after looking through his posting Frag's story holds up to scrutiny so lynch Irao - it was just a coincidence. I could go into detail but no real point;

You would be okay vigging a PR? Something seems off about this.

He meant to vig me from what I take from that

PR slip.

VOTE: Irao

[Slandaar]

No, I didn't. Just because Fragger softed a PR, does that make him town?

The thing is that whole sequence is just a mess. He panicked a bit as he had to make sure he wasn't being vigged with the result he has. All makes complete sense.

[Slandaar]

Things can't be neutral?

No.

I see. Well we disagree on that.

Assume there is a player X who is playing similar to Snarky and doing very little.

If this player X is town then they are helping scum I can accept this argument. They are helping scum because they are an easy target for a mislynch. The issue is that player X can be scum. When they are scum they are helping town making themselves a likely target for a lynch so their actions are pro-town. Taking all this into account we can say their actions are actually neutral unless you know their alignment. What they are actually doing is being anti-agenda, which is to say they are not playing to help their agenda whatever that is.

So their play style can do a 180 mid-game? Does that sound town-like to you?

It's a neutral action

Both town and scum should want to survive. Deciding they need to post more content to not be lynched is not purely a scum action. It's pro-agenda to tie it in to my above explanation.

Snarky is not helping the town. Snarky does not produce content. Snarky is coasting by, laying under the radar more than anyone (save one or two) and

Snarky doesn't show that he's going to do anything differently.

You imply Snarky posting more would have been a town action here.
?

Will be back later to respond to other stuff.

[Slandaar]

ohh wait, 2 scum died.
LOL!

I find it hard to believe town wouldn't check the flips before posting;

So looks like we aren't doing so hot.

[Slandaar]

I actually pulled it up on my mobile phone. But my mobile phone didn't want to open all the spoilers it only openned Drixx, and showed town. So I was like okay, cant see rest will assume they were also town, I know bad. Then got on computer started posting and was like "Ohh I should actually check Ozgin and Fragger flips" then saw my horrible mistake lol.

I kind of buy this.

Will post properly tomorrow...

[Slandaar]

Sorry I wasn't very active last few days but I should have time again now.

@Slandaar: you don't think scum would panic if they thought they would be vigged?

I thought it was very unlikely scum would panic and set things up as he did by covering up his claim. I was wrong but eh it's easy in hindsight.

how can they both be town based on their claims?

It was possible Fragtown was fakeclaiming on his super scumread Irao. Unlikely but possible.

My pred did not replace out, he flaked out

They are effectively the same thing for the discussion Rach.



------------------------------

You imply Snarky posting more would have been a town action here.
?

Abso-freaking-lutely. The EASIEST way for scum to sneak under the radar is to post enough to be seen as not being a lurker...

Imply town here and agree.

Coasting is weak but sounds good in theory. Why, after Reubus was lynched for not doing much or caring, would scum coast on D2?

So their play style can do a 180 mid-game? Does that sound town-like to you?

Imply scum here.

?

[Slandaar]

Performer is town.

Will reread some things later.

[Slandaar]

Performer is town.

Will reread some things later.

You say that with certainty.. How certain are you?

Very. He has been my top townread for a long time.

Slandaar what's your read on Aris slot? Has it changed from d1?

No

The only argument he has made is:
'SNARKY IS NOT POSTING MUCH LETS GET HIM!!!'

I also am a little curious why you say I'm town.

Should I not?

I can pretty much say for sure that Creature is not a scum mate of his, based on the wall he made against him.

Can You?

I remember him doing one on Fragger also. What is the difference?

As I read, I am restating this to note that Slandarr is the only person Ozgin has any real, non Iso/Wall interactions with. It's weird.

Probably has something to do with the fact I was making arguments against him and no-one else was.

You imply Snarky posting more would have been a town action here.
?

Abso-freaking-lutely. The EASIEST way for scum to sneak under the radar is to post enough to be seen as not being a lurker...

Imply town here and agree.

Coasting is weak but sounds good in theory. Why, after Reubus was lynched for not doing much or caring, would scum coast on D2?

So their play style can do a 180 mid-game? Does that sound town-like to you?

Imply scum here.

?

Kuroi

Please try and explain it to me!

In one instance Snarky is town if he starts posting more in the other he is scum for the exact same action.

I am very confused!

[Slandaar]

Most interesting thing in Fraggers ISO is:

I still wanna hear more from GuyFawkes, Ozgin, Snarky, & Boonskiies . Four days removed from deadline & they haven't provided much if anything.

I wanna hear more from Ozgin, either today or tomorrow since they've been lurky as all hell.

Specifically pulls up his buddy only a short time after naming 4.

It is an argument somewhat in favor of Kuroi but I don't know how much I should weight it. I feel lowish but eh.

[Slandaar]

Slandarr, you keep pushing that I have only made a shitty case for Snarky's inactivity being scum all game.

This is untrue

. It's getting as stale a case as DGB against Yume.

If you think I am not representing you fairly then show your arguments against other players.

slandaar you find it interesting that Boonskiies is also Kuroi? 2 mafia 2 non mafia would be a good way to distance without anyone telling the diff, right?

No. I don't care about the numbers and trying to guess how many scum are in a set of names is just pointless.

The point I was making is he named 4. Then the next day focused on one of those. We know the one he focused on is a buddy of his. Focusing on just Ozgin suggests the other 3 are town as he specifically focused on Ozgin because they are buddies.

It is possible another scum is in the list and he just randomly focused on Ozgin for whatever reason, but I still consider this an argument in favor of Kuroi.

[Slandaar]

Fragger:
Not interested in
Jam

Someone explain the red flags about Jam for me.

I guess I'm not still grasping how that could be a scum tell from them.

Aristo

Your ISO is chalk full of you saying you're going to catch up, or give stuff ect & then not following through.

- Interacted a fair bit but never showed interest in voting him even when he has had a wagon.


Interested in
Irao
Ness/Reubus
Snarky
(+Ozgin)

Questionable

Guy

I'm all in for a wagon on Guy, just as soon as Snarky gives us something to work with.

Anyways I am running out of time. Will probably look at this properly later.

The jam thing probably makes Yume scum. Fragger was kind of evasive around that time.

This seems rather fake.

I am interested to know your opinion on the 'red flags' explanation.

(Red flags was explained but he ignored it)

Hey Slandaar. It's been explained by Boonskie (#75) & Egg (#99), & I think I get what they're trying to explain. I think I would compare it to say video mafia which I have more experience in, where a scum is more likely to say "what do you want from me" or something along them lines to appeal to town or to try to seem town after a possible slip or something weird that they've said.

I wanted to know your opinion now it has been explained. You somewhat agree?

He doesn't agree or disagree just says he understands. Seems like a buddy to me.

@Slandaar Sure I could agree to a extent I guess that scum would be more likely to appeal to town to appear town.

I have to pester him to respond. He 'could agree'

Like I say might come back to this post later. The main point to take from it is Fragger not taking a stance around Jam early on.

[Slandaar]

I need to check Jam's arguments against Ness and see if he copied them from someone. (this is just a reminder for myself)

Aristo - you missed one of my questions which I would like you to respond to. (You can find it)

[Slandaar]

Still deciding what to do today.

[Slandaar]

Sorry don't have much time today. Might be able to post properly later will have a quick read now though.

[Slandaar]

ilikebugs has been inactive longer. Neither of them posted much to read them from. It feels like people are giving bugs a pass because he claimed VT early, but if it's that easy, scum would do it every game! And then people are suspicious of Yume because she has posted elsewhere while flaking here, but if that's such an obvious tell, why the hell would scum do it?

If you claim VT everygame it is a nulltell hence you can't do that in the longrun with any benefits. Claiming VT as a newbie (under no pressure) is very town.

You are right about posting elsewhere though.

[Slandaar]

I want to see Yume's replacement before deciding who to lynch today. That said I am conflicted in that we have waited ages already and it hasn't happened so feel just lynching her might be OK - I think there is a fair chance she is scum. The game is dying so as a compromise I will wait till Thursday to see what happens if no replace I will vote then.

[Slandaar]

FBG = DGB.
Vote with me, old friend!

Aristo is trying to derail your Yume wagon DGB

I have thought about this a lot and have basically concluded we can only lynch Yume/Bugs (Yume) without any replacements as otherwise tomorrow is even worse than today. Take into account just how bad mislynching an active player is when you have both Yume/Bugs still in the game tomorrow and yeah.

[Slandaar]

It's a good day!

VOTE: Kuroi

Yeah, not Aristo, the long 'break' has given me the chance to just kind of think things through.

I have made this point like three times now but eh going to repeat it as this is clearly who we should be lynching today:

You imply Snarky posting more would have been a town action here.
?

Abso-freaking-lutely. The EASIEST way for scum to sneak under the radar is to post enough to be seen as not being a lurker...

Kuroi implies that someone who switches their playstyle up under pressure is a town action.

Coasting is weak but sounds good in theory. Why, after Reubus was lynched for not doing much or caring, would scum coast on D2?

So their play style can do a 180 mid-game? Does that sound town-like to you?

He then implies the complete opposite.

----------

These arguments are getting dumb.

Slandarr, I'll find that question I missed at my earliest convenience.

You didn't

In post 2264, Aristophanes wrote:
I can pretty much say for sure that Creature is not a scum mate of his, based on the wall he made against him.

Can You?

I remember him doing one on Fragger also. What is the difference?

----------

One of his scum mates could have advised him to because people town read it.

That requires day chat and requires the scum to think it will be read that way and then requires them to tell bugs who then follows through. A lot of requirements for something scum can't be sure will be read as town.

[Slandaar]

I think both

KTS and Kuroi

are town after reading their ISOs, they both have honest reads on the game and they seem pretty have been fairly active. I think it's kinda silly they're voting on eachother here, frankly.

DBG

on the other hand has been posting barely any content. I'm not gonna be posting a long quote take thing mostp laers do, because that isn't my style. But so far, My reads can be summarized as such.

Town: KTS, Kuroi,

Egg

Scum: DGB

I wasn't going to respond to this but I changed my mind.

How did Egg end up in your town reads?

[Slandaar]

Overanalyzing every little thing just seems to be his gig and he is doing it this game.

Why did you look into Egg? Did you ISO him? If so, why didn't you mention this in your prior post?

Slandarr, I did a reread on the cases, and I think it's a minor thing in how the cases were presented. However, it is not a basis for a strong read on Creature, so I rescind my earlier comment.

Mhmm. I am not sure I believe you took the wall against Ozgin into consideration, but, OK.

[Slandaar]

but before that Kuroi seems to be pretty pristine.

He really hasn't done much since his wall intro

[Slandaar]

I don't know. I'm going to have to reread.

[Slandaar]

The longer the game goes on and Slandaar is still alive, the stranger I think his reads on Ari & Guy/RachMarie are. He also mentioned scumreading Kop/Ari, Frag, Ozgin, Guy, and Drixx a while back, and

I don't recall observing anyone else hitting 2 scum out of their reads lists.

How would you know if anyone else hit 2 scum in their reads lists Performer?

[Slandaar]

Yeah that is awful sorry I missed it before.

VOTE: Performer

[Slandaar]

He also has the power of foresight:

Ozgin's playerslot is conftown.

Good luck on your exams!

I would be very wary of saying something is confirmed anything unless the mod is involved (Innocent Child for instance).

I can see where Killthestory's coming from on pg 91 , regarding Kuroi. I'd like us to wagon Ari first though . Scumread on him is higher than on Kuroi - also placing a bit of trust into Slandaar's reply to me. If we're wrong about Ari, we can look into Slandaar .

This reminds me of Frag's constant push on ira since d1, and Frag turned out scum.
Slandaar I really hope you are right about that slot.

All makes sense.

There is more but I don't think more is required. It's clear. Lynch Performer be happy.

[Slandaar]

don't say that, even as a joke

This. Anyways...

@Slandaar because at the time, I couldn't think of anyone other than you who hit 2 scum in your scumreads. It seemed way too exact so I was noting it as "coincidence? Or more than that?"

The point I am making is how would you know how many scum are in peoples scumreads without knowing all the scum?

I suppose you could mean I am the only one who said Ozgin/Fragger in a list but then that doesn't really matter as it's not like I, as scum, could predict they would be the first scum to die and then list them to make me look good or something? (I could have 3 scum in that list although it is an outdated list).

In terms of the foresight accusation - I brought that up because it's incorrect FM theory from Dripping, to make a rash assumption like that.

Yes, but DGB obviously would know he isn't 'confirmed' town. It's an exaggerated read. Saying to be wary of calling him confirmed town, then saying you find it town, then he flips scum is very well... coincidental is your word.

The same impression is given when you are talking about how Aristo better flip scum or I will be looked at. He flipped town of course. You give of a sense of knowing their flip before hand.

When you changed your sig yesterday it gave the impression to me of gloating which is very much why I paid attention to you today. Perhaps you can explain that in some way too?

Unrelated

Spoiler:

I feel like I should have put more faith in this point as I am fairly sure Rach(Guy) is town:

Most interesting thing in Fraggers ISO is:

I still wanna hear more from GuyFawkes, Ozgin, Snarky, & Boonskiies . Four days removed from deadline & they haven't provided much if anything.

I wanna hear more from Ozgin, either today or tomorrow since they've been lurky as all hell.

Specifically pulls up his buddy only a short time after naming 4.

It is an argument somewhat in favor of Kuroi but I don't know how much I should weight it. I feel lowish but eh.

Well if it's any solace, I've been having a hard time with those posts of Fragg as well. sigh.

[Slandaar]

@Slandaar uh. Oz & Frag flipped, I posted that regarding you somehow nailing them because it's incredibly rare that anyone nails more than 1 scum in a reads list before they flipped

Meta me. Incredibly rare seems wrong. 2/5 isn't that good (3/5 is good but doubt it is).

and you kept scumreading the Kop slot for over 2 days

without elaborating

.

Untrue.

Spoiler:

Slandaar, my question was phrased in the sense that whoever we were talking about WAS a VT. He believed that person to be scum. So he answered the question about VTs first, used the word "but", and continued to hold his original position.

I understand what you are saying but I disagree and think there is a disconnect. If a VT shouldn't be worried about anything then that seems like reason to suspect him for not being a VT you need not add 'but still he could be scum'. The second implies the first point isn't an argument against. You could argue perhaps the first point about VT is just complete theory but I will go further and say: I highly highly doubt Kop who posted:

Actually not contributing a lot to peoples posts, and is just basically saying this is town this is scum, without actually engaging into the content that is here. If your failing to actually contribute to posts that you are quoting, you can't say anything incriminating or leaving your self up to possible contradictions.

Would think 'VT's shouldn't be worried about anything but that doesn't mean VT's are not worried about things'. I would expect him to jump on it to some extent.

Maybe I will post the larger argument against Kop (Aristo) ... I guess I have to

Most of Kop's content is theory and being helpful, trying to sound pro-town, while not actually posting content. I pulled him up on this here:

These 2 posts aren't pleasing me. I think my vote on Creature looks like it'll be staying. If you can give me a case on why Sircakes is scum, and if I can find something within it that I can agree with, I might reconsider my vote.

Yes, obviously, if someone makes a good point against another you should reconsider your vote. Thank you for stating that. Very town.

Sounds nice and pro-town but it alerted me to him.

He then focused on the no-lynch stuff way too much... (theory)

and is just basically saying this is town this is scum

His vote on Iraon is awful and then the question becomes why not DGB? why didn't he mention her?

Probably the best question (scumhunting) he asked he didn't follow up on which is also a negative for him. Lots of trying to be helpful + theory with a lack of actual content and the content he did post being very questionable.

I think the vote is good.

OK I will post content.

Why should a VT without much to add be worried about being taken out first?

A VT shouldn't be worried about anything, they should be doing the best they can to eat a nightkill

. But anyway, it still could be scum claiming an easy role.

The first point being made points to bugs being scum. (Bolded)
Therefore saying the second part makes no sense as he is implying the opposite!
(= scum)

There is more.

Regarding the sig , I changed it because it was funny that you were right on the mark up until d5, when you voted me .

I Haven't really been that right.

the strange questioning from Slandaar , and increasingly strange accusations

Which of my questions/accusations are strange?

Yesterday I was very sure you are scum, this morning I wasn't so but wanted to see how you respond, now I don't know but it felt like you were setting up to vote me today with an Aristo townflip yesterday and you have which really shouldn't have had any influence on anything.

If town are wrong so often and are so unlikely to be right 2/5 of the time then why would Aristo being town affect anything in terms of your read on me?

[Slandaar]

It's still weird to me that you tunneled that slot so long without having your read evolve, but that could be just a playstyle thing.

I mean it did 'evolve' I took Aristo's actions into consideration and I deemed them not very good so it didn't change.

Other than me, who are you scumreading , Slandaar.

No-one really. Rev but that is just an association read.

I need to think.

[Slandaar]

KAAG read progression is a little suspect. KAAG/Rev makes sense. Might elaborate later but you can check it yourselves.

[Slandaar]

KAAG read progression is a little suspect. KAAG/Rev makes sense. Might elaborate later but you can check it yourselves.

Are you saying you will finally join me against KAAG? I've pushed for his death since d4 but no one was having it. I've went over my scumread on him too.
His consistent avoidance of me in this game overall, has been suspect as well - it's like he knows something's going on. I can't pinpoint what exactly.

Maybe.

Because he wants to flash lynch a slot where someone has replaced in but not talked yet.

The replacement is already lurking

Must be scum.

VOTE: Dominator

Also just for you Performer:

2. Ozgin - scum-aligned
11. Firebringer - scum-aligned
19. KickAssAndGiggle - scum-aligned
20. Fraggernaut - scum-aligned

iraonavp changing vote on a whim is interesting: am I not scummy any more? Frag is likely scum, but you only vote him now because?

Of course you're still scum-aligned. The quoted post is a great example of this with the "interesting".

Isn't it obvious why I'm now voting Fraggernaut?

No, it isn't. I never find it obvious why people vote one way in their first post of the day (with no reason given), then change in the second with the word "Finally" being their only explanation.

Please do explain, and also please elaborate on your scum hunting method that assigns scum reads due to the use of the word "interesting", because that is very interesting to me.

You're an interesting chap.

I voted Fraggernaut because other people were also voting him.

"interesting" is just an awkward and suspicious way of saying "scum-aligned". There's no other thing that could mean.

KAAG argument here is terrible.

@KAAG

Here's the issue I have with your argument.

Something_Smart, Ozgin, Slandaar = town
iraonavp, killthestory, Performer = prob!town
Guy/Replace, Yume, Kuroi, ilikebugs, DGB = unclear
Aristo, Frag = scummy
Drixx, FB = scum

Those are your most updated reads from your 1935

In the world where you think I'm mafia, alongside Drixx & Fire means you believe I as mafia would hard defend my partner Drixx throughout day one, day two & day three openly. It also means you believe I would hard defend Fire late day two, call him a PR which I read him as & then continue to express my belief that Fire is a PR & defend them into day three. Which is implausible & extremely dumb if I was actually mafia, which I'm not.

What Fraggernaut is telling us here is that we should not lynch either of Drixx or Firebringer after he flips scum-aligned.

Somewhat agree.

Meh, I held off voting him:

I've played with scum Drixx (that single Newbie defeat he alluded to...I inflicted it), and he was far more conciliatory as scum. His ISO here is terrible, but it's nothing like the Drixx in that game. I've ummed and ahhd about it, but for now I'm waiting on his promised reads before reconsidering him.

Regarding Guy, 18 posts total, 10 of which are unarguably fluff. Flying under the radar is an understatement: he's a stealth bomber! I agree that he is hard to read: if he won't correct that by himself then we can encourage him.

When my in-laws drive away I hope to find myself not lynched already, because I totally actually have some notes and investment in the game already. If you all could restrain yourselves for a day and a half and wait and see, that would be pretty cool. If not; that's life. (Or death, as it were).

We've restrained ourselves. So...where is it?

He promised his notes and investment 5 days ago:

When my in-laws drive away I hope to find myself not lynched already, because I totally actually have some notes and investment in the game already. If you all could restrain yourselves for a day and a half and wait and see, that would be pretty cool. If not; that's life. (Or death, as it were).

So I'm certain he's my preferred lynch today, but only as certain as any D2 read. Feels like the best vote at the moment for sure.

Weak reasoning on Drixx.

Read the top quoted post in that post.

Contradiction argument with Iraon and Drixx is pretty awful also from KAAG.

Sorry NC.

[Slandaar]

not as sold as DGB and slan on the revolving door slot that is now dominator

I was joking about 'must be scum'. I do think the slot has a good chance of scum though based on the reasoning in 2309 (if you actually go and reread the part of the game I am talking about you will see what I mean).

I also don't see many slots left who have potential to be scum.

4. Killthestory - No
7. Performer - No
9. hebichan - Possible but Nah
11. Firebringer - Really Don't think so
12. RachMarie - Really Don't think so
15. Slandaar -
16. Reverie - Probable
18. DrippingGoofball - Really Don't think so
19. KickAssAndGiggle - Probable
21. Something_Smart - Possible but Don't think so

I like the Dominator wagon.

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I didn't think massclaim was optimal earlier in the day with just KTS claimed but it depends on you, Performer, I don't think it can be bad either so eh.

[Slandaar]

the fact that Slan is no killing while my slot has been targeting is what made me believe he's scum.

I can confirm that I haven't been killing anyone during the night.

(Sorry been busy promise I will catch up tomorrow)

[Slandaar]

Tbh I don't think KTS's reads are very good. KAAG's posts were very clearly town, and I think his lack of interactions with Ozgin/Fragger looks good for him when you consider how good Ozgin and Fragger were at distancing with each other.

Which of KAAG's posts were 'very clearly town'?

Slandaar's pushing on Ozgin and Fragger is exactly what I would expect from their partner.

Could you explain how your push on Fragger is not 'exactly what you would expect from his partner'?

Anyways

I'm a VT obviously.

Nero claims next.

[Slandaar]

Why haven't you claimed your n2 target?

[Slandaar]

Oh wait, no need to answer

Town Jack-Of-All-Trades

(

1x Jailkeeper

, 1x Doctor, 1x Roleblocker, 1x Friendly Neighbor)[/sub][/b]

JOAT included JK

VOTE: NERO

[Slandaar]

I will post properly tomorrow but Perf should also full claim.

[Slandaar]

4 maf plus 1 sk would be too unbalanced against town, and I was not the only one to point that out.

4 Maf are dead

perhaps scum wanted to get towncred by lyching the SK and get rid of his competition at the same time.

Lynching the SK doesn't mean you are not mafia thus you don't (shouldn't) get towncred for lynching an SK.

Anyways I do think Nero thought I am the SK as it's the only reason he would claim against me as he did. He is going to be doubly annoyed in the deadthread.

My analysis of night 6 is that KTS and SS targeted one another, and that the SK did a no kill. This is going to be tough.

It's not unlikely that they both shot KTS (I expect this is what happened - why would SK nokill? if worried about being tracked by you shooting you is just better)

I don't think it's smart for me to claim the 2nd part of this role anymore, in case we get the lynch wrong.

Claiming will help us make the right lynch. It's not really possible to do setup analysis without knowing your full role.

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My reads haven't been stellar this game but they are not bad either. They haven't changed recently - The only player left who I am not completely sure is town is Hebi, I expect he is the SK. Won't vote right now as hopefully Perf will claim...

[Slandaar]

Two town BP?

I need to think about this.

Was certain it was hebi last night but I thought Perf was claiming Backup BP & Backup Tracker.

Will be back on later. Want to respond to some stuff from yesterday before rereading a bit.

[Slandaar]

the mod meant backup BP

I think if the mod meant backup BP they would have said Backup BP.

There's something else - your claim clashes with my 2nd role.

Rach I'm pretty sure you're actually confirmed town here.

How is she?

[Slandaar]

That is not the major issue when doing VCA. you are looking for patterns between scum players, like one on one off the wagon. Hammering by itself is not necessarily scummy.

I don't think VCA works at all when trying to find an SK.

if he were still bp like me, he should not have died.

BP Enabler is dead hence BP doesn't do anything.

Quickly going back to yesterday though:

@ Slan

Why are you choosing heb over fire as the sk? Could you give some reasoning here?

Was very confident Fire was town. Not going to go into why now but in terms of Hebi I think you need to be middle of the pack in terms of reads as an SK at least that is what players would attempt. Don't appear too scum or too town so as not to be nked but also not be lynched. Hebi does meet this criteria quite well. Hebi has hammered quite a few which could be argued is a sign of an SK just wanting to lynch people (I guess you could argue this is VCA but it's not really).

Would also like to touch on this as it is something I was wondering in earlier days:

Also, the fact that you survived for so long as a non-PR also made me suspect of you

I think basically Aristo being town made me not very dangerous to maf and sk for a while. Combined with the fact that only one scum, Fragger, had played with me before and he doesn't, based on his posting this game, rate my play very highly. Both of these led to me not taking NK's. That's it really. My reads have not been fantastic but they are OK my most recent list was pretty solid. If Heb is SK then I would say my last list was very good in fact.

Setup wise:
Mafia:
BP Enabler
Ascetic
Goon
RB

Town:
JOAT - Note: a strong JOAT with friendly neighbour ability.
Tracker
Vig - Note: not limited? (contrary to what was claimed)
BP + Backup Tracker - Quite Strong as can't be killed without mafia BP Enabler dead.
Ascetic Enabler - Not very useful.
9 VT

With an SK still alive who is probably not without power, Ninja makes sense, BP possibly.

The question is - does BP town fit into this setup? Unfortunately I don't really believe so. I do think having a BP SK + Town who is BP with a mafia BP enabler looks really good setup wise.

That is where I am currently. I am going to do a bit of rereading to try and decide. Need to look at large setups with SK's to see the kind of powerlevels town get also as I really don't play larges much.

I would be interested to hear your opinion on the setup Heb and also why you think Rach is confirmed town if you still do?

[Slandaar]

Will be around later just wanted to check if the site was back.

[Slandaar]

wait a minute I thought BP enabler meant he could make his scum budz BP against the vig? I really did not pay that much attention to it actually other than thinking oh great now some of the maf are BPs so we can't vig them.

There wasn't a mafia BP.

Town Enabler X -> Maf X
Maf Enabler Y -> Town Y

The question is if there is
Town Enabler X -> Maf X
Maf Enabler Y -> Town Y + Town Y or Town Y + SK Y

All I have against him was the mafia going after him, but performer was questioning you a lot before death.

I think Nero probably blocked me and then the SK kill was missing so thought I was SK hence the claim. He was wrong. There wouldn't be a kill in a number of situations - the SK shot Perf or Rach if it's you. It's also possible maf/sk shot the same target.

Perf was questioning due to knowing he was BP and Rach claiming BP. Do you think there are two town BP?

I am not going to hammer certainly not without getting a chance for Slan to speak after the site was down. I see no point in rushing.

It's things like this that make me more confident slandaar is Skype.

If you actually intend to vote me then I would like you to wait and let me vote first once I have decided who to vote. I am not confident right now on either of you but will have time on Sunday to read and make a decision.

[Slandaar]

You voting first would cause an issue for me if each was the sk

Yes, but that same issue occurs if you vote me first if Rach is the SK...

[Slandaar]

I would have rather had a town bp enabler. Then we would have had more town BPs to foil both the SK and the maf team.

BP Enabler isn't/wasn't BP.

[Slandaar]

Slan's caliber is having so much trouble understanding my reasoning here though.

BP Enabler doesn't make the rest of the mafia BP.

All it does is mean anyone (any alignment) who is BP loses that ability when the Enabler dies. They have to be BP in the first place for the enabler to affect them.

You should probably lookup the role on the wiki as I don't think your understanding of the role is correct and my explanation is a bit eh.

I meant my reaction when I saw a mafia BP enabler flip was oh great that means we could have mafia bps too

In relation to this:
BP Enabler was last maf to flip. You thought there was another mafia who was BP still alive after seeing that flip?

[Slandaar]

VOTE: Hebi

Slandaar has failed to vote despite saying he wiuld sunday, and he hasnt made a case for me, but now im certain you aren't sk and my theory about the mafia knowing he was was proven correct. You didn't hammer, so you are town. Just help town win here.

Yes, Yes. My plans changed.

I haven't made a case for you? What relevance does that have? was like 90% going to vote Rach but luckily you prevented that. Besides, I have actually made a 'case' for you.

It's pretty evident I'm not the SK, I have been read too town, chance of being nked would have been way too high to play the way I have.

to start the convince town slandaar is our man.

You could try to explain how you were so confident when Rach was claiming BP with a BP already flipped. Yeah.

[Slandaar]

What made you pick the person you picked over me, and why

He was confirmed SK to me when I voted.

[Slandaar]

You seemed to be honestly trying to solve the game, and mafia was trying to kill slandaar under the guise of it being a good lynch despite how he was finding scum a lot.

Yes, we have covered this a couple times already although I don't really feel I was finding the scum 'a lot' but anyways.

I agree Nero thought I was the SK. Makes complete sense. What happened is Hebi (SK) shot Perf/Rach when NC targetted me with an RB or maybe both shot same target etc. I see from your POV, Rach, that this is debateable but it shows the flaw in the argument and where Nero was wrong.

Hebi saved pushing this argument for today though instead of sorting it out yesterday. He hammered Fire without any real reasoning for him being SK to ensure he had an argument today which is actually alright if you ignore that the mafia can be (and were) wrong about who the SK is.

Note this:

I thought it seemed pretty obvious they found sk early on and wanted to kill him off before lylo.

If it was so obvious why did he vote Fire yesterday?

slandaarnseemed to be trying to use to frame you in that back and forth you two had earlier.

Mhmm. If I were the SK I would have just voted you earlier on off the back of my reads saying I was sure Rach was town. Two town BP is hard to believe so I was debating it.

I wasn't all that confident. The fact you were left alive despite being so town and mafia trying to lynch you is super obvious on how you were bp serial killer and the mafia knew it. Hell, the fact you weren't nkd is actually a strike against you here. It only proves you weren't mafia.

Well you sounded very confident and then you go on to say 'super obvious' in the next sentence.

Why are you saying I am BP? And I don't see how not being nked can possibly be a 'strike against' me. On D6 the day Nero claimed we had 1 death the night prior - DGB. This was not a vig shot so we know the mafia shot her based on Nero claiming as we can assume him claiming means SK kill is missing. The mafia therefore did not try to kill the SK. If I were the SK this means the mafia didn't choose to shoot me.

[Slandaar]

What proof did you have that Fire was the SK?

When you say proof what you're doing is avoiding saying argument as you had one of those which, as covered, was the same one you have made today.

Why are you calling me BP all the time?

[Slandaar]

I had no proof fire was sk, I just really thought he looked scummy all game, it was a gut read that was wrong. I am fallable.

My question was kind of rhetorical. The point was you clearly didn't have any thus:

When you say proof what you're doing is avoiding saying argument as you had one of those which, as covered, was the same one you have made today.

--

Why would mafia think I am an SK if they shot me and I didn't die? they couldn't have known there is no town protection role and I was in a position to be protected (townread a lot). Even then I could be town BP from their POV.

I think they used the RB on me and thought they blocked me killing it makes much more sense from their perspective. Not that it matters. They were wrong.

also

@Mod: can you prod Rach please?

[Slandaar]

I told you mafia tried to shoot him and found he was bp.

While this is true (apparently) this wasn't what you should have been arguing and there wasn't much evidence to support it.

It did bother me he was still alive in LYLO

though he was not nearly as active as I am used to.

That is in large part because I have decreased how much I post in general.

I figure that Slan did too at some point.

I did shoot you. It looks a bit strange but I didn't believe there could be two town BP as I couldn't actually win with you alive from what I can tell. (Didn't consider BP enabler - not really something you would though). + I thought Guy crumbed doc so it seemed like you were claiming BP as doc eh. Thought it wasn't like you to fakeclaim as town though but if you were doc had to kill you then so I deemed it the shot that had to happen.

I knew Hebi was going to vote me so held off but I had planned to argue in lylo that when you replaced in, you were calling Ozgin scum, then Ozgin died that same night and because that kill had to be the SK I figured I could attribute the kill to you + claiming BP. It seemed pretty good.

-----

Didn't expect to win. I shouldn't win when I have been claimed on by Nero who blocked me twice even when he flips mafia. When someone claims to have blocked someone two nights in a row and both nights were missing a kill... you should go with that.

[Slandaar]

ahh nice to be so loved there Slan

So Slan any idea why Perf got a fake positive result on you, that really was the tipping point I was set to vote you then when I went to reread some of that stuff and saw that is why I switched to Heb.

You needed to ask the mod; if someone is blocked and tracked on the same night then would the tracker see that someone go anywhere if they target another player (or something like that). The answer is probably no.

If the answer was yes it's much harder to vote me but it probably wouldn't be. (I

was

a ninja though).