Micro 624: Grey Flag Nightless (Game Over)

[GuiltyLion]

I meant it more as in "why are you talking about game theory here?", because I said "why are you talking about NLs" and RachMarie said "Game theory in general".

I wouldn't make a blanket statement like "all game theory talk isn't useful", but I will raise my eyebrows when someone would rather talk about hypothetical scum actions than the particular actions of players in the game. I guess the whole line of questioning started because I really can't follow the logic in RachMarie's 101 whatsoever and I think karnos has been comparatively clear about his view on derphammers and why it's anti-town to say what RachMarie said.

Like RachMarie said his vote was bad because someone could quickhammer, then karnos said if scum quickhammers then we'll catch them and if they're bad town then they're worth getting rid of anyway, then RachMarie talks about a game where scum quick hammered her and won, how does that refute what karnos said?

p-edit: "flailing" really?

[thenewearth]

I'm gonna go ahead and say rach is town

Probably

Could be wrong

But town

[RachMarie]

oh I misread that,

First his L1 vote was NOT visible a visible L1 vote would be to mark IN BOLD that you are placing someone at L1.

He just slipped a vote in there,

He has then focused on shutting down discussion trying to say that I am giving scum pointers. Which also indicates he knows I am town. Its too soon to KNOW anyone is town, you should suspect everyone at this point even if you have town reads they should not be 100% absolute.

So how would Karnos KNOW I am town,

oh right if he is scum he would know.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm gonna go ahead and say rach is town

Probably

Could be wrong

But town

meh I think I am getting this vibe too but I completely disagree with her reads and her reasoning behind them

anyway let's get back to lynching Rosske

[rb]

Like RachMarie said his vote was bad because someone could quickhammer, then karnos said if scum quickhammers then we'll catch them and if they're bad town then they're worth getting rid of anyway, then RachMarie talks about a game where scum quick hammered her and won, how does that refute what karnos said?

think about this for a minute.

[RachMarie]

Compare TNEs town read on me with what Karnos said...

which one looks like it is coming from a clueless at this point townie PoV and which one sounds like it is coming from someone with insider info? ahem scum PoV

[GuiltyLion]

Like RachMarie said his vote was bad because someone could quickhammer, then karnos said if scum quickhammers then we'll catch them and if they're bad town then they're worth getting rid of anyway, then RachMarie talks about a game where scum quick hammered her and won, how does that refute what karnos said?

think about this for a minute.

I have thought about it. karnos' point was that it's stupid to be afraid of scum quickhammering because then they'll be autolynched the next day. RachMarie said this has happened and it was scum that quickhammered - so regardless of the fact that Aubrey still won later in the game, karnos is still absolutely correct that scum quickhammering is obvious and a free D2 lynch.

IMO the fact that the town failed to catch Aubrey later is irrelevant to what karnos was saying

[RachMarie]

Also, I'd like to point out that what you just said, even if true, is a very anti-town thing to say

.

Once you start claiming that a derp-hammer is likely town, before it has occurred, you are opening the door to a scum quick-hammer by giving them plausible deniability.

Why anti town, why not accuse me of being scum? Why not say it is scummy? Why not at least say that makes me more suspicious?

I am very suspicious of people who have this strong a town read on me this early in a game. I learned that from my first game on site when scum won because I was not suspicious enough...

[karnos]

@Rach can you please explain your reasoning on why my sarcastic response couldn't have been made if you are scum?

[RachMarie]

Obviously I am going to have to show you some games where town derp hammered and got mislynched for it GL

[RachMarie]

I am talking PoV not just the wording but the mindet behind the wording.

[rb]

Lmfao ok I'm just gonna explain it even though I shouldn't have to.

Karnos: if they derphammer, they're scum!
rach: *gives example of derphammering town*
Karnos: if they derphammer and they're scum, we'll catch them!
rach: *gives example of scum getting away with derphammering*

Point being that Karnos' "strategy" is terrible because derphammering is NAI.

[GuiltyLion]

rach: *gives example of scum getting away with derphammering*

except my point is that the scum didn't get away, he was lynched the next day. You're conflating "scum" with "scumteam" here.

karnos (and I agree with him) is saying that derphammering is a policy lynch. No exceptions. All the examples in the world of town/scum derphammering in various games won't change this attitude, and IMO is a distracting discussion from the game we have here.

My additional opinion is that assuming anyone who does an early L-1 vote is scum is a very shallow way of forming reads. While I currently think RachMarie is being genuine with her push here, I don't believe her conclusion is correct.

[karnos]

Lmfao ok I'm just gonna explain it even though I shouldn't have to.

Karnos: if they derphammer, they're scum!
rach: *gives example of derphammering town*
Karnos: if they derphammer and they're scum, we'll catch them!
rach: *gives example of scum getting away with derphammering*

Point being that Karnos' "strategy" is terrible because derphammering is NAI.

>Karnos: if they derphammer, they're scum!

I think I was pretty clear, it could be scum or dumb. But dumb town can lead to a town loss while scum twiddle their thumbs, so either way lynching the derp is a good idea.

>rach: *gives example of derphammering town*

I'm still waiting for those examples. From my perspective, I've seen it *never* happen out of 9 games so far. Maybe not an exhaustive sample size, but even if it happens once in every 20 games, you can't just cripple your play and never put anyone at L-1 just because something bad might happen.

>Karnos: if they derphammer and they're scum, we'll catch them!

That should be the policy. It's really simple- derp hammer = next day lynch. The only way someone "gets away" at that point is if you have players that fail to follow through with the lynch the next day.

>rach: *gives example of scum getting away with derphammering*

Error 404: examples not found.

[karnos]

And one point I have been trying to get across, is saying "derp hammer is probably town" sends the wrong message. Even if it's true from your POV, you should not say it!

If you just say "derp hammers will be lynched the following day, no questions asked" nothing is left up to debate. A scum player might in some odd situation find it worthwhile, but even the most newbie of newbies will realize it's a bad idea.

OTOH, if you say shit like "well derp hammers are mostly town anyway" it sends a terrible message. A scum might think they can get away with it without getting lynched, but even worse a newbie might think "hey, i'm pretty positive rb is scum so i'll just quick hammer here, and i should be fine tomorrow because even if i am wrong Rach over there is saying these types of mistakes happen all the time!"

No No No. It's just a bad message all around. If you quick hammer, you get lynched the next day. End of discussion.

[karnos]

Why anti town, why not accuse me of being scum? Why not say it is scummy? Why not at least say that makes me more suspicious?

This just seems like noise to me. Please tell me: what is the defining different between "anti-town" and "scummy"?

I generally consider the two terms to be synonymous. And yes, doing anti-town stuff does make you more suspicious. Leaving it unsaid doesn't make it any less true, what is your point?

[rb]

OTOH, if you say shit like "well derp hammers are mostly town anyway" it sends a terrible message. A scum might think they can get away with it without getting lynched, but even worse a newbie might think "hey, i'm pretty positive rb is scum so i'll just quick hammer here, and i should be fine tomorrow because even if i am wrong Rach over there is saying these types of mistakes happen all the time!"

No No No. It's just a bad message all around. If you quick hammer, you get lynched the next day. End of discussion.

Tbh there's nothing wrong with what Rach said but there's definitely things wrong with what you're saying now.

[karnos]

Not to change the subject, but I feel like you and Rach are creating a ton of noise regarding this. Lets agree to disagree. If you think i'm scum because of my unannounced L-1 vote, feel free to vote and try to lynch me.

In the meantime, I'm real curious about rosske. He seems awfully quiet for someone at L-1. Maybe he thinks that the noise between Rach & Me will draw votes off of him if he just keeps hiding?

[Javajoe24]

Not to change the subject, but I feel like you and Rach are creating a ton of noise regarding this. Lets agree to disagree. If you think i'm scum because of my unannounced L-1 vote, feel free to vote and try to lynch me.

In the meantime, I'm real curious about rosske. He seems awfully quiet for someone at L-1. Maybe he thinks that the noise between Rach & Me will draw votes off of him if he just keeps hiding?

You actually have a point here, he is very quiet as if trying to blend in. I still don't like your unannounced L-1 and am keeping my vote on you, but

FoS: rosske

[callforjudgement]

Vote Count

Rosske

(4): thenewearth, rb, GuiltyLion, karnos

karnos

(2): Javajoe24, RachMarie

Hoopla

(1): Franky

GuiltyLion

(1): Hoopla

rb

(1): Rosske

With 9 players alive, a lynch requires 5 votes.
Deadline is Tuesday 26 July at 21:40 UTC (

automatic countdown: (expired on 2016-07-26 21:40:00)

)

[RachMarie]

Dude posted multiple times yesterday, we have almost 11 days til deadline, what is the rush there karnos? I think we can give him at least another day before hanging him. (sarcasm)

Not everyone is glued to their computer which is why the time for prods and such is set up in the game.

For example, yesterday I was off the computer for several hours due to my legs being very swollen and hurting. Went to wound care today and got fresh compression bandages yay.

I think before we lynch anyone we need more discussion. I feel very much like karnos is trying to end the day very quickly and not give us time to talk to each other before going off to our beds and waking up in the morning finding one of us dead :/

Well one of the games I was thinking of Mafia on Holiday most of the game got lost by tigers (a major crash that basically lost about 6 months or so of data, most of my first game was lost too. Now that I am back home again will find a couple more games.

[Rosske]

Not to change the subject, but I feel like you and Rach are creating a ton of noise regarding this. Lets agree to disagree. If you think i'm scum because of my unannounced L-1 vote, feel free to vote and try to lynch me.

In the meantime, I'm real curious about rosske. He seems awfully quiet for someone at L-1. Maybe he thinks that the noise between Rach & Me will draw votes off of him if he just keeps hiding?

It's best for me to be quiet if I'm at L-1 this early in the game. I'm watching the people on my wagon and I don't want to make too much noise cause interference. I think it's pretty obvious here that the wagon on me isn't because I'm scum, there's other things going on, and I'm chilling to see how it develops. I guarantee you that all four people on my wagon DO NOT have a conductive reason for voting and that's where things'll get interesting.

[Rosske]

also it's frusterating that TNE brushes off any attempt I have to engage with her. She lead a wagon on me and now she won't answer any of my most basic questions. She's hiding more then I am, honestly. Hiding in plain sight but hiding all the same

[rb]

Tbh I like 146 and 147 from rosske.

VOTE: karnos

Don't like this guy though. And me not liking him makes me not like rosske's wagon.

[rb]

Also, wagon-duels are great information tells.