Mini 495 - Mafia on a Plane! GAME OVER! =)

[Korlash]

I find it funny you keep ignoring what me and Elias are doing.. I would feel you would want to say something, one side or the other... I mean either tell me I am over pushing it, or he is over reacting... Or a combination of both... don't ignore it... *Angry face*

[vollkan]

I find it funny you keep ignoring what me and Elias are doing.. I would feel you would want to say something, one side or the other... I mean either tell me I am over pushing it, or he is over reacting... Or a combination of both... don't ignore it... *Angry face*

I'm reading it with interest, but I don't want to intervene. I get peeved when people interfere in my own arguments.

To be honest, the whole thing looks like an enormous pissing match of the type I had with Elias in 486. You don't actually seem to be going anywhere and you are both getting worked up.

If you have specific points you wish me to comment on, by all means list them, but as of right now I haven't seen anything noteworthy.

[shaft.ed]

I find it funny you keep ignoring what me and Elias are doing..

I find what you are doing a waste of time and thread space. You are arguing over who is posting more content, while not adding to the discussion. I've got to applaud Elias here for just walking away, as there seems to be no point in continuing. The only relevant interpretation of it I can see is two scum buddy's distancing themselves, aside from that I'm largely ignoring your comments on the matter and skimming in case there is any relevant content.

[shaft.ed]

In regards to him being swayed by my opinions, I have also noticed this, and have been worried by it. I can attribute it to vollkan being scum trying to buddy up to me, or the fact that I make really good points

Whenever you have been at odds with me on something, you have argued your case in the proper way: By proving that I am wrong or am overlooking something. It's more a compatible playstyle thing than anything else. Your style of argument is the sort that I respect.

I can understand that. In our games together I feel quite comfortable with your content and posting style making me assume your towniness. I find this dangerous, but it seems inescapable as its some sort of synergistic playstyle thing. (Note to self go meta some vollkan scum games)

This is true

AlyG, Lucienne, dybeck - POST!

QFT

[Gemelli]

Actually, I do. As you say, nobody appears to be opposed to dybeck's lynch. Since I think Orig is the SK, that fact is one which points in dybeck's favour as being cop. When you look at things that way, the trap is actually a very plausible scenario.

This "trap" scenario relies on me being mafia, then? In that case, who would be my scummates? The names you've tossed out as possible collaborators with gemMafia are dybeck and Elias, right? So if dybeck's cop, who else am I mafia buddies with?

I'll just say it as plainly as I can: Vollkan, I am not trying to set a trap for you. I am trying to ensure that I perform the proper due diligence before I commit myself to a strategy that you are advocating. Personally, I have a feeling that I myself am now faced with a Catch 22 ... if dybeck comes up scum, I am fairly certain you will be going after me as his mafia buddy. But now you've posted that if he comes up cop, it is plausible that I have set a trap for you. I don't begrudge you your suspicions, but it is absolutely frustrating to get the sense that you will be going after me no matter what I do.

One final question for you (before we turn our attention to the actually important issue, who we're going to lynch today): why was it that when I advocated lynching either orig or dybeck, you FoS'd me, but when Elias made the same suggestion, you agreed with him? Was my wording THAT different from his?

[Gemelli]

EBWOP:

Mod

: Can I ask for prods of AlyG and Lucienne? We're close to deadline, and I'd really like to get meaningful input -- and ideally, votes -- from everyone before we hit Nov 8.

[Streeflo]

Mod

: Can I ask for prods of AlyG and Lucienne? We're close to deadline, and I'd really like to get meaningful input -- and ideally, votes -- from everyone before we hit Nov 8.

Sure

[Elias_the_thief]

Through clever editting, you left out the part of my post where I compared the info we'd provided.

I never posted my actual statement yes, I find it too difficult to go back in and requote my shit. But I did address your statements before and after. I thought that good enough.

Whatever man. I'm still pretty sure I've more adequately covered the major issues then you have.

I wondor if you think youre clever when you ignore obvious sarcasm.

The same can be said about you... *Cough*

Sigh...your points are not nearly as obvious as mine was there. But point taken.

If you hadnt noticed, I've been talking the whole game. The reason I'm writing more now is because you've really pissed me off by yelling "you have no content" when I've said all there is to be said.
...
Thats what I was asking for. And you think youve pressured me into providing info. Anyways, what exactly makes you think I'm scum? That I'm pissed off? Ask yourself: do townies get pissed off when theyre wrongly accused? Hell yes they do. Again, youre just making a bad move, placing me at the top of your scumlist for being pissed off.

To be fair I will try and see it from your side here... *looks*
Nope still don't get it...

Hmm? What is there not to get? I've posted all I feel that is relevant at this point in the game. It annoys me when you repetitvely ask for more content. This is a completely legitimate point of view to have as town.

Ok heres my thing. First, Let's say you are mafia. As town I see you as still an unkown. I could care less about yoru posts before I replaced. I won;t look at them. I don;t give a rat's ass about them. I do care about any posts you have made sense I have been here. And, personally, I do not remember much of you AlyG, or Lucienne. (On a side note AlyG needs to post like.. today... Kinda hard to rank him to high seeing as how he is claimed power role but...) So I want all the yummy info on you I can get my hands on... mmmm... Infoy goodness!

Now lets pretend I am mafia and you are town. I would love the fact your getting pissed off right now! I would keep pushing it as hard as I could to get you to either slip up or maybe get stuff to use tomorrow. So telling me you are getting pissed won't get me to stop. However, if this was the case, I could see you saying "Screw you Korlash I post enough." And leaving it at that. I could possibly accept that...

So you put me at the top to force me to post more..yet you'd be more happy if I'd made a one sentence post? How does that work? Especially since the main thing I said, if you boil down my post, was screw you, i post enough. What do you think "get off my case about posting content" means?

Lastly, perhaps we are both town. I see your reactions as a little to defensive. Like I said, if you feel you have honestly posted enough just say "I feel I have posted enough and it will take more then just you to get me to post more." And leave it at that instead of actually proving my point and posting more... Whether you like it or not my simple posts at you have made you repost a lot of (semi-useless yes) content. So in my mind I am happy! Yay! Party time is now!

Youre happy because I posted useless pissed off posts against you...Firstly, I really wasnt all that pissed off. I said get off my fucking case, and thats probably the angriest thing I said. I dont get you at all. How is me being pissed off relevant? Getting pissed off is something players do for different reasons. I'm often pissed off in games (as town). You wanna see a really good example (and Vollkan can vouch for this) see mini 486. I got really pissed in that game, and guess what? I was town, and I pulled out a victory.

What does the amount posted in any given post have to do with skimming under the radar? I've given definitive opinions on what people have asked of me and other issues. Why is the fact that I dont post 300 words have to do with me "skirting under the radar" You're ridiculous.

It's not that you don't post a lot, it's that you don;t seem to post that often.

Why is this a problem if all the important info is there? I'll post however often I want, and if this is seriously the main thing that you put me up there for, then I really dont care about your opinions on me anymore.

There are a lot of excuses for that, and I can accept most of them. But while this deadline is in effect I personally feel the same person should post every 6-8 posts. So roughly 3 times a day would be nice.

I have this thing called school, and this thing called homework, and this other thing called having a life. I'm also in 4 games while modding another right now. I dont really have time for 3 posts a day, and if thats not good enough for you, then sucks to you.

Again, Some people only have access certain times, or have so many other games, and that is a good excuse. But I wont stop pressing them to post more because of it.

Alright. I'll be sure to ignore those requests then. I really didnt have too much of a problem (besides being annoyed) with you incessesantly asking me to post until you went and topped your scumlist with my name for it.

Attacking my intelligence will make everything better. First of all, I've already said that I'm undecided on Gemelli. Second of all, what the hell do you mean, "biggest issues"? Lucienne is a lurker, Vollkan and Shafted I have no problems with. My biggest issue with you is your refusal to accept that I have been contributing, and the fact that youre continually using it as a fallback thing when you have nothing better to say. "Hmm, elias should post, lol"

Ok become decided, comment on something new about him, say you will do a reread.. theres a million different ways to contribute even if your "undecided." Tell me why. Illustrate both sides. Say reasons he MIGHT be this or that.

Um, no. Not today. Do you really think that I will be killed tonight? Do I seem like the towns MVP to you? I'll leave my rereading and analysis for the next day (gamewise), because if I think someone has faked a claim (which Shafted convinced me of) then they are my priority lynch. Thus, I will lynch Dybeck today, worry about Gemelli and others tomorrow.

And there has to be something else on me then that. I mean half the people here hate me for reasons not even contributed to this game, surely you can find one other thing to mention.

Huh? You asked me for my biggest issue with you. Its that your main tactic seems to be to prod lurkers, and sometimes people who arent actually lurking.

Lucienne is a lurker... Nice... Do you have any feelings on the few posts she did make? Do you think of here one way or the other? Do you plan on helping get her to talk?

Vollkan voted her, I protested on the account of lack of evidence, and then he went back and pbp'd her well and came to the conclusion that she was likely town, which I agreed with. This should tell you all you need to know about my opinion on Lucienne.

You have NO PROBLEMS with either of them? None at all? Even after Gem's huge Vollkan thing? Come on... Stop trying to convince me you post enough when this is all you can fucking say about people.

*shrug* dont like it? too bad. You asked me for my biggest issue on them, I gave it, with the exception of Gemelli, who can wait til tomorrow.

I mean God, is it really that big of a deal whether I think you have posted enough? No. Should you be making such a big deal over it? no. Should you post more? Hell yes.

Big deal? If I recall, my original post was simply this: pointed out that I was posting enough, then asked you to stop attacking me for lack of content. After that, I've simply been going back and forth with you. How is that making it any bigger a deal than it should be?

Good job ignoring my point. I just showed how I've actually given a much clearer depiction of my opinions then you have of yours, and you ignore it. Nice one.

Kinda like how you keep ignoring me asking you to post more useful stuff... I see it as a fair trade off. I'll gladly do a recap of every single on of my feelings on every single player after you do that same.

Not really. You see, I posted the opinions I feel are relevant for today, and have effectively at least mentioned your points. You flat out ignored this one, and its a strong point against the whole attack youre making right now. Frankly, I couldnt care less about your opinions, really. I believe after Dybeck, the mafia is in {Lucienne, Gemelli, you} by process of elimination. Lets see, I think Lucienne is town...who might the scum be? Thats right. So why would I be so interested in getting detailed play by play by you when it will simply be wifom to analize anyways?

Oh yes, the fact that I said "fucking" means that I went over the top. Listen, just because I used a swears doesnt mean you can ignore my points. You know why I didnt just say "I think I am posting enough"? I dont believe in making random assertions. I like to back up what I say. Thats what that post did. The fat that I was a little angry when I wrote it is not a reason to ignore its logic.

You can say anything you damn well please as long as it is not some personal attack (i.e. your mom is a F... etc etc etc...) I get mad too.. trust me go check out Treestump mafia... Or whatever it is called...

To hear you say that personal attacks are a no-no is interesting, since youve called me "slow" twice.

I just think telling me to "get off your case" is a little over the top... its a game of Mafia man...

And I think you're not listening to what I actually said.

So I'd advise you to get off my fucking case on "not enough content".

I was talking SPECIFICALLY about the not content thing. Thats what you earlier actually said I should have done, said "screw you, I post enough". Hey guess what? Thats what I was saying!

The whole point is to

BE ON SOMEONES CASE!

Stop saying "get off my case" do something about it.

First, I have no problem with you "being on my case" in general. I have a problem with you being on my case content wise. And you ask me to do something about it, but what have I been arguing with you about the last 3/4 posts? You know, the thing that you claim I'm overreacting to? Now youre saying that I'm not doing anything about it? Cant you see that contradiction?

You know a simple summary of all your feelings right after I originally said it might have been enough for me to move on. And I don't, and if you had already done one that still stood at that time a simple quote or link to that would have been enough. But nooo...

You'd rather me repeat myself or quote someone else than what I did, post my own new content...are you for realsies right now? Especially since I had recently posted a summary of most of my feelings.

Um yeah, as I said. The first point I had made previously, and you should have also, since it was brought up ages ago. That point hurts you more then helps you. The second response to Vollkan is hardly relevant. You said you joked. The thank you to Shafted is a terrible point! You didnt even address his post! The two issues with me are ridiculous, because I have been posting enough, and with content.

Firstly to explain where I was joking and where I was not can lead to some bad misunderstandings being avoided. Already you have taken a joke I said a little to seriously and thus have proved why me explaining my jokes are not a "bad point"

I didnt say that they were bad points. I said they really arent that relevant in the grand scheme. You can make 10 jokes and make a point explaining each of them, thus making points like that easily manufactuable, and nothing to brag about. Thats my point, not that theyre "bad".

Secondly while I did not add anything to or about Shaft.ed posts my thank you for him was again, because of a previous misunderstanding that has now been avoided.

So basically, yes, I contributed more on the subject then you. Thanks. I think I could stop this back and forth now, based on just that, if I wanted to.

Unlike you, he seems to want the town all on an equal foot here. And if I show my appreciation for it so be it. (See was it that hard? Did you honestly have to take all my comments as personal attacks when you could have easily cleared them up like I just did?)

Way to change the subject and make random generalizations about what I want for the town. Anyways, I only falsely took one thing as a personal attack, which was that I thought you were calling my posts contentless, which they quite frankly, werent. And as for actual personal attacks, I suppose that calling me "slow" twice doesnt qualify?

As for my points against you, While you may think you post enough I don't. So bringing that up is not "ridiculous" in the least. At least not to me. I could care less if your happy with how often/much you post, if I am not I'm going to fucking tell you about it.

First, this is a meta debate at this point. People have differing opinions on how ofter you must post to be a decent contributor. If you lynch people who disagree with you on this, you will be lynching a lot of townies. And you believe that doing this repetitively helps the town? If so, thats why its ridiculous.

]Ive already stated that I am undecided on Gemelli. I have a neutral opinion of him currently. I dont know how else to put that. As for poking me, all youre doing is further angering me. Angering me simply gets me to swear a lot, which wont help the town much. If you think thats the best way that you can help the town now, then I think your no one to be telling me theres something wrong with my late day play.

Again, you can illustrate why he is neutral. There has to be something either kinda town or kinda scummy he said. His posts against Vollkan have to have somethings you can comment on, there has to be something you can say. Come on man, Saying "I think he is neutral" in no way tells me anything. How can you blame me for not considering that a helpful or content..y... post?

Because that was not the only thing in that post? I am undecided on one factor and thus you throw that entire post out the window as unhelpful and contentless. Can you blame

me

for thinking thats a little harsh?

Also me continuing to poke one of my top three does seem like a good play for town... I will keep it up until there is a majority consensus for me to stop or you drop from my radar... *poke poke poke* or until my fingers get tired... *poke poke poke*

Alright. I'll stop responding to you until you bring up something besides "hey elias, post". Its people like you that make Anix the player that he is today. Right now, his playstyle doesnt even sound that bad.

I myself will be posting something on the Vollkan/Gem posts tonight hopefully. I have business to attend to first but I ill try and read through all those jumbles... and.. long... ass posts... son of a... This site needs spoiler tags or something... Also A redo of my scum list, a few more Dybeck insights I think, and a couple prods to Lucienne and AlyG are soon to follow... Until then...

Good for you. I myself will be quiet unless there is something further relevant I feel the need to comment on. When it is near deadline, I will place my vote on Dybeck, unless something drastic comes up.

Oh and Elias... Take a Chill pill or something... If this is getting you pissed off there has got to be something wrong with you... Cause this is nothing...

Again, insulting my intelligence is nothing to you? Further, I get angry in games. Its what I do. Emotion and anger are tools I use in games. If you have a problem with that, too bad. Oftentimes I will post angrily when I'm not actually angry at all. So yeah. I wont take a chill pill, but its nice to know that you dont know whether I actually need it or not.

If you want me to break into my crap logic and stubbornness chest I will.

You havent been using crap logic, I'll give you that. My main issue with your argumentation is that you like to change subject mid point. But I digress.

I might even be able to create an equal Swear to real words ratio from you...

I guess I can recognize your jokes at this point, but the only reason I find it funny is that youve actually swore about as much as I have already. I used the word "fucking" once, and "hell" once, you used "fuck" twice in your last post, I believe.

Oh and as for your newest posts I could care less if you think they are funny or not. Blatantly taking something I admitted was a joke and trying to use it against me will not help get me to stop focusing on you. Also, I should try and not insult what little intelligence you have... I'll try from now on...

I didnt try to use the joke itself against you. The fact that you didnt actually provide the top of your scumlist becuase you were "joking" is what I was attacking you for. But its all good. Keep up the personal attacks,
Sincerely, Elias.

P.S. I dont find it funny that Vollkan is ignoring this, since it truly means nothing. So far youve attacked me for not posting enough, and youve got me to post totally meaningless crap. At least when I had a "pissing match" with Vollkan, we were debating something meaningful. The only reason we disagreed was meta opinions.

P.P.S. I dont plan on commenting any further on Gemelli or Lucienne, since I dont plan on rereading them this game day. Vote me if you want, but barring future scummy posts, I've made up my mind for today.

[vollkan]

I can understand that. In our games together I feel quite comfortable with your content and posting style making me assume your towniness. I find this dangerous, but it seems inescapable as its some sort of synergistic playstyle thing. (Note to self go meta some vollkan scum games)

Mini 436. Here, people assumed I was pro-town for a large amount of the game, but I was mafia. This is the best reflection of my playstyle.

Newbie 358. Note, that the early newbie 358 stuff was my first time as mafia and, hence, the later stuff in this game/Mini 436 is a better reflection.

This "trap" scenario relies on me being mafia, then? In that case, who would be my scummates? The names you've tossed out as possible collaborators with gemMafia are dybeck and Elias, right? So if dybeck's cop, who else am I mafia buddies with?

At the moment, I would be some combination of Elias, Korlash and possibly Lucienne. I would need to look at things more to work it out, but I think it would be among those 3.

I'll just say it as plainly as I can: Vollkan, I am not trying to set a trap for you. I am trying to ensure that I perform the proper due diligence before I commit myself to a strategy that you are advocating. Personally, I have a feeling that I myself am now faced with a Catch 22 ... if dybeck comes up scum, I am fairly certain you will be going after me as his mafia buddy. But now you've posted that if he comes up cop, it is plausible that I have set a trap for you. I don't begrudge you your suspicions, but it is absolutely frustrating to get the sense that you will be going after me no matter what I do.

Well, the only reason I think the trapping thing is plausible is because of how many problems I had with your arguments. Contrived arguments are a scumtell.

If it weren't for that, I would be less inclined to view this as a potential trap.

It is not really a Catch-22, because I still see the scenario that your suspicions are genuine as viable; the flaws in your analysis just perturbs me.

One final question for you (before we turn our attention to the actually important issue, who we're going to lynch today): why was it that when I advocated lynching either orig or dybeck, you FoS'd me, but when Elias made the same suggestion, you agreed with him? Was my wording THAT different from his?

Post reference/s?

If you meant in 1226 where I said:

In any case, for me the matter comes down to a simple decision: do we believe originality, or do we believe dybeck? Given dybeck's breadcrumbing, and originality's scummy play at the very start of D2, I am more inclined to believe dybeck at this point. I think that ONE of them is the right play today, for sure, and am leaning strongly towards originality at this point

Gemelli thinks Orig is the SK. Fine, so do I. BUT, Gemelli also favours lynching Originality. In fact, he sees the fact that we lynch either of them as near axiomatic.

Lynching SKOrig places us in LYLO. For someone who has been so cautious all the way through things, this is a major slip.

FoS: Gemelli

....

All I know is that lynching orig would be bad. I havent really made up my mind on Korlash, but he's digging himself into a deeper hole everytime he posts. This doesnt mean he scum necessarily though. I'll have to reread the discussion he's had with Vollkan.

This is a null tell. Elias has the right attitude, but adopted it after people brought up the numbers of the matter again.

The difference was that Elias opposed Orig's lynch quite clearly whereas you believed lynching one of them was definite and that lynching Orig was likely better.

[Elias_the_thief]

I've just realized that I missed the majority of the Gemelli-Vollkan debate. I guess I'll comment on it tomorrow, but I believe that Vollkan defeated most of Gems points with the simple word "misrepresentation". As I said, elaboration tomorrow.

[Korlash]

Ok I have read up pretty much all of the Gem/Vollkan debate. Kinda dozed off in the middle... Woke up someone in Denmark.. how the hell did I get there? Anyways...

i found a few points Gem brought up that I specifically looked for a response from Vollkan simply because I wanted to see what he would say, but I couldn't find any. I don't want to bring most of them up seeing as how they hold no grounds on the case, and I don't want to seem like I am trying to use weak based attacks on anyone more then I already have.... I'll say one and see how you take it...

Sorry? Where did I say Orig was 100% confirmed scum.

If you want percentages (0% = obv town, 100% = obv scum)
AlyG = 0%
shaft.ed = 20%
Elias = 55%
Gemelli = 60%}
Korlash = 65%} Not tied, but the above was more based on specific reactions to lynching Orig. On overall perception, Korlash is scummier.
Lucienne = 70%
dybeck = 75%

Orig = 100%

Please explain how it is possible to read that post otherwise. This should be good.

I combine it with the quote:

I would have been perfectly happy if you'd actually come out from time to time and admitted that you had made mistakes.

And I see a valid (Non proof of town/mafia in anyway) argument that makes me wonder just how many times you have made mistakes.

You see now why I hate big, long, hour to read posts... I tend to find one little thing and stick with it the whooooooole time...

Also on a more serious discussion note... Can Vollkan please define "Misrepresentation" in his own words. He used it enough in his defense that I figure if I want to take his statements to their full meaning I should get his exact meaning down pact. I could look it up, but that doesn't necessarily mean that is the definition he meant, if you see where I am going here... if not I am not asking for the definition, I am asking Vollkan to define it... So I don't need like Shaft.ed to define it or something... I'll stop talking now...

Ok a new list for y'all to see...

Scum list (Lynch/vote oriented)

1) Dybeck- Claim has many faults and snags in it. Was keen on jumping on me in a somewhat... scummy way... Most of his posts seem to lack content and he does seem to avoid a lot fo the more direct statements at him. I already said i will give him one defense post before voting but if he waits too much longer I may vote anyways.

2) Orig- Naturally he must follow Dybeck. One of them is lying. Plain and simple. Vig should come up towny when investigated so I feel their claims counteract. Insane cop seems like to much to hope for(So to speak) and so I have more or less ruled it out.

3) Elias- simply because I feel he overreacted to my simple statement... No chance of me voting him because I know one of the above two will turn out to be scum. Still feel I would like him to participate a bit more in active discussions and so I am looking forward to his post tomorrow! ^^

4) Vollkan- I cannot ignore my gut feelings I got through my read up. But it is true his play style is something I am not used to. I like how in depth he is with posts, his way of thinking, and how aggressive yet to the point he can seem. I cannot look past the "Following Shaft.ed" angle, or the fact that Gem has made a few good points I agree with.

5) Gem- I find his "posting style" a bit more like able then some of Vollkans and I do not know exactly why. Perhaps the bolding thing... Something subtle that just draws me into them... I think it may be his tiny bit of humor I keep seeing now and then... Back on point, Some of his "attacks" if that is what you want to call them on Vollkan stem into the beginning of Day 2, and "throughout day 2" and so I am unable to fully appreciate those. I feel Vollkan has more or less defended himself nicely provided he has a good definition for "Misrepresentation." I also realize I have basically summarized my thoughts on his post and not on his affiliation meaning I must not have a lot to go on him... interesting...

6) Shaft.ed- Almost forgot him. He is a hard guy to figure out. I like him, I like his posts, and I like his way of thinking/seeing things. Unless somethign very bad happens I do not see myself going up against him again.

7) AlyG/Lucienne- As Elias pointed out just their lurkerness is no reason to label them as "Scum" so I will post them at the bottom here. I think AlyG's claim holds up so he is obviously town. However I feel there is very little (For me at least) to go on Lucienne and that is why I am so interested in getting her to post... So I can get to know her better >.> <.< Favorite color... Movie genera... Flower... Dinner at 8?... *cough*

Scum list (Pressure/reaction/scum hunting/ info gathering oriented)

1) Lucienne - I said I have nothing to go on her and so day three will be difficult for me.

2) Elias- Again I feel there is little for ME to go on. I personally see him as unknown and that is why I would like more from him. His recent posts (while more or less no info for the ton as a whole) I felt I got to know him more or less as the player/poster he is. These bonds are important to me because if I cannot understand your ways of thinking, posting style, and personal feelings about things I cannot really feel i know you enough to begin really scum hunting you. I'm sorry for the personal attacks I used, those were uncalled for and lame.

3) Vollkan- While I dread any future long ass posts from you I feel you can really narrow things down to this or that, your numbers while I don't read them seem to be good tools for other players (Gem and Shaft.ed at least), and overall I feel you have taught me in my newbiness a lot this game.

4) Dybeck- I only rank him this low because i am only looking for one post from him. Be it a very in depth post that answers a lot... I kinda feel my feelings on him are set in stone because I cannot convince myself he can even come up with a use able excuse... But I give him the benefit of the doubt... Cop claim, be it most likely false or not, merits a bit of leeway...

5-8) The rest of us....

Um I have other feelings here... I secretly believe Vollkan would make a good SK this game... Would explain a few things in my mind... Like... Why he felt keeping Orig alive was a good thing... and why he was so convinced Orig would be NKed... needless to say that can also be explained as him being town but still... It is a thought.

Ok thats all I can manage ATM...

[vollkan]

Korlash, I have explained the 100% thing. It was wcs reasoning. My view is 75%, but I am assuming 100% for the sake of argument and predicting Orig's behaviour. I should have made that clear.

Also on a more serious discussion note... Can Vollkan please define "Misrepresentation" in his own words. He used it enough in his defense that I figure if I want to take his statements to their full meaning I should get his exact meaning down pact. I could look it up, but that doesn't necessarily mean that is the definition he meant, if you see where I am going here... if not I am not asking for the definition, I am asking Vollkan to define it... So I don't need like Shaft.ed to define it or something... I'll stop talking now...

In the context of the argument, "misrepresentation" meant referring to my quote as indicating something when, in fact, it was quite clear that the opposite was true or, alternatively, using one quote to say something without regard to related posts by me nearby.

4) Vollkan- I cannot ignore my gut feelings I got through my read up. But it is true his play style is something I am not used to. I like how in depth he is with posts, his way of thinking, and how aggressive yet to the point he can seem. I cannot look past the "Following Shaft.ed" angle, or the fact that Gem has made a few good points I agree with.

Which points are those?

Um I have other feelings here... I secretly believe Vollkan would make a good SK this game... Would explain a few things in my mind... Like... Why he felt keeping Orig alive was a good thing... and why he was so convinced Orig would be NKed... needless to say that can also be explained as him being town but still... It is a thought.

If I were SK, why would I want Orig kept alive? Orig would be confirmed mafia to me and I would want him dead. I know this has a huge wifom element to it, but there is seriously no motivation for a SK to emphatically argue in favour of letting a mafioso live.

My conviction that Orig will be NKed is simple:
* If he is mafia, the SK needs to get rid of him
* If he is vig/SK he is a direct threat to the mafia and they will have a strong desire to get rid of him.

[Korlash]

A) My bad then... I didn't see where you did so just forget I mentioned it...

B) Nothing is ever obviously anything man... No matter how clear you make it someone will always somehow manage to misinterpret it. As for the Quote nearby thing... I could be missing it because I am not going to go back and check that all his info is correct but the few times I remember he basically used a post-by-post attack and thus would regard the quotes around it.

c) I will get to this first thing in the morning... Most likely.. worst case scenario first thing after work tomorrow... Not enough time right now... sorry... ><

d) In my mind, if I was SK i would love to NK a mafia... to help make town think I was vig.. so if you know he is mafia because you are SK he seems a good NK choice for you... That is mostly all I am basing this on... I know it is not a formidable attack and I am in no way implying you ARE the sk... it is just a suggestion so I can do an "I told you so" thing in he event you are the Sk... Yeah... I like to rub it in the faces of people when the game is over... ^^

[AlyG]

I got your prod strefflo and i'm here. Vollkan i'll answer your questions soon.

[dybeck]

Are people (well... Korlash and shaft.ed) still waiting for responses from me? Can your questions be put, BRIEFLY, in one post? Like... as briefly as you possibly can. I've read too much rubbish in this post already.

[vollkan]

Gladly. You want a concise list of questions, here you go. I demand that you answer all of them. After the amount of content the rest of us are putting it, it's the very least you can do.

First up, I shall shamelessly ask shaft.ed's questions which you have persisted in avoiding. See shaft.ed's post 1269 if you want to see the context behind each of these.

1) Why investigate originality?
2) Why wait on bringing up your case on originality?
3) Where is your case against originality?
4) If you have a guilty investigation why offer to hammer someone else?
5) Why did you claim prematurely?
6) Why did you forget to vote for a proven killer you had a guilty investigation on?
7) Why are you not providing more insight into who the scum groups might be?

Now for some of my own:
8) What is your scumdar? I want names, at least one sentence per person and a % ranking.
9) Why are you lurking?
10) Why did you claim cop despite me having made it patently clear that lynching Orig was a bad idea? By this, I mean that all you did was needlessly out yourself if you were cop. If you were in real peril of lynch, then fine, but you weren't.
11) Why do you support lynching Orig despite the numbers lying firmly against it?
12) What was your basis for saying "the scum are most vocal"?

I'll probably think of more questions, but these make a damn fine start.

ANSWER THEM!

[Korlash]

After the amount of content the rest of us are putting it, it's the very least you can do.

Lolz... sorry it's funny when you think of Lucienne here... Ok I'll shut up and go to work now....

[Gemelli]

One final question for you (before we turn our attention to the actually important issue, who we're going to lynch today): why was it that when I advocated lynching either orig or dybeck, you FoS'd me, but when Elias made the same suggestion, you agreed with him? Was my wording THAT different from his?

Post reference/s?

Sorry, I was tired. Substitute shaft.ed for Elias.

My post with the part you bolded:

In any case, for me the matter comes down to a simple decision: do we believe originality, or do we believe dybeck? Given dybeck's breadcrumbing, and originality's scummy play at the very start of D2, I am more inclined to believe dybeck at this point.

I think that ONE of them is the right play today, for sure, and am leaning strongly towards originality at this point

Your response:

Gemelli thinks Orig is the SK. Fine, so do I. BUT, Gemelli also favours lynching Originality. In fact, he sees the fact that we lynch either of them as near axiomatic.

Lynching SKOrig places us in LYLO. For someone who has been so cautious all the way through things, this is a major slip.

FoS: Gemelli

shaft.ed's post:

We know that dybeck and originality's claims are mutually exclusive, thus at least one of them has to be scum, and there is a possibility that they both are. Thus lynching one of them has greater than 50% odds of hitting scum. Anyone else in the town is much lower than this and thus should not be considered.

Your response:

On the numbers, 3:2:1 is not significantly worse than 4:3; it is still LYLO. The only difference is that it is possible for a mafia lynch to result in a 1:1:1 wcs.

What I was reacting to is that shaft.ed and I both suggested that lynching either Dybeck or Originality as the right play today. When I did so, it earned me a FoS and was "a major slip." When shaft.ed did it, your only reply was to comment on the numbers. The big difference in our posts: I leaned more in favor of lynching orig, and dybeck leaned more in favor of lynching dybeck. Other than that, we made the SAME EXACT ARGUMENT.

Again, I'm utterly frustrated here. When I make an argument, I earn a FoS. Someone else makes the same argument, and isn't suspected at all. When I look at possible scenarios involving you being scummy, they are "baseless conjecture" and "complete rot." When you look at possible scenarios involving me being scummy, they are "quite plausible" and "not at all far fetched," despite both sets of scenarios being founded on the same type of basis: HYPOTHESES and GUESSWORK.

If you're going to hold me to a different standard of behavior than other players in this game, and you are going to point fingers at me for holding your posts to the same level of scrutiny that you apply to others, there is honestly no point for me to continue engaging in discussion with you. You've successfully pissed me off, congratulations. If you DO end up being pro-town in the end, you and I are going to have to have a long talk after this game about jumping to conclusions with both feet.

[Gemelli]

EBWOP: I agree with your definition of misrepresentation. I do not agree with the way you've applied it to my arguments for the most part. In some cases, your intent may have been "quite clear" to you (as the author of the post, I would hope so). It was not clear to me in many cases, and I saw some grounds for suspicion. I agree with Korlash's point: I think you make too many assumptions that certain of your premises are "obvious" and should be taken as absolutely true. Suspecting someone because they don't think the same way that you do isn't a reasonable way to play.

[vollkan]

What I was reacting to is that shaft.ed and I both suggested that lynching either Dybeck or Originality as the right play today. When I did so, it earned me a FoS and was "a major slip." When shaft.ed did it, your only reply was to comment on the numbers. The big difference in our posts: I leaned more in favor of lynching orig, and dybeck leaned more in favor of lynching dybeck. Other than that, we made the SAME EXACT ARGUMENT.

I read shaft.ed in a different way.

I thought he was simply stating that Orig and dybeck are more likely to be scum, without actually advocating for the lynch of both of them. The last sentence looked to me simply like he was saying that we should not consider anybody else to be of the same likelihood. This was why I responded with the numbers rather than an attack.

Again, I'm utterly frustrated here. When I make an argument, I earn a FoS. Someone else makes the same argument, and isn't suspected at all. When I look at possible scenarios involving you being scummy, they are "baseless conjecture" and "complete rot." When you look at possible scenarios involving me being scummy, they are "quite plausible" and "not at all far fetched," despite both sets of scenarios being founded on the same type of basis: HYPOTHESES and GUESSWORK.

When I called it baseless conjecture, I was a little peeved by your abuse of some of my quotes, which might explain the tone. On a more logical level, I didn't see any reasoning beyond the fact that I had been protecting Orig, which I had been arguing for on numerical grounds. Hence, when you called it "constant drumming" of opposition to Orig's lynch, I felt it to be a dismissal of the numerical basis for my opposition to lynching Orig.

I only called your misuse of quotes "complete rot" and I stand by that. I don't mean that as a personal attack. I simply mean that a number of your points were founded on misrepresentations of what I had said.

If you're going to hold me to a different standard of behavior than other players in this game, and you are going to point fingers at me for holding your posts to the same level of scrutiny that you apply to others, there is honestly no point for me to continue engaging in discussion with you. You've successfully pissed me off, congratulations. If you DO end up being pro-town in the end, you and I are going to have to have a long talk after this game about jumping to conclusions with both feet.

I'm not holding you to a different standard. The points I called rot were rot, because they took what I had said entirely out of context on a number of occasions. This is not holding you to a different standard; if anybody had said what you said I would have been equally as harsh in my counter-argument.

If, by jumping to conclusions, you are referring to my attitude towards those who disagree with me on the SK thing, then I make no apologies. I have put a lot of time into my position on this matter and I am not going to take kindly to deviation from my own view unless someone can prove me wrong. If they do, I am perfectly happy to accept my own errancy, but when we have people actually posting that they are ignoring my numbers, you should understand my irritation.

EBWOP: I agree with your definition of misrepresentation. I do not agree with the way you've applied it to my arguments for the most part. In some cases, your intent may have been "quite clear" to you (as the author of the post, I would hope so). It was not clear to me in many cases, and I saw some grounds for suspicion. I agree with Korlash's point: I think you make too many assumptions that certain of your premises are "obvious" and should be taken as absolutely true. Suspecting someone because they don't think the same way that you do isn't a reasonable way to play.

Let's take a look at just one of the examples where I used the term. You accused this:

The fact that Orig is supporting Dybeck's lynch is a little perturbing to me. If Dybeck is SK, then his death is going to mean the end of Orig.

of being me arguing that dybeck was the SK.

My response:

It is misrepresentation of Gemelli to say that here I am arguing dybeck is SK. I was merely pointing out that if dybeck shows up SK, Orig will be confirmed scum.

My intention is pretty clear from the words "If dybeck is..."

This same thing about me speculating on possibilities and you stating that they were me stating facts was something that ran throughout. I frankly doubt that you could read me so wrongly.

[Gemelli]

I read shaft.ed in a different way.

I thought he was simply stating that Orig and dybeck are more likely to be scum, without actually advocating for the lynch of both of them. The last sentence looked to me simply like he was saying that we should not consider anybody else to be of the same likelihood. This was why I responded with the numbers rather than an attack.

Re-read both of our posts. It looks to me like shaft.ed and I are both saying that one of the two players, originality and dybeck, is the correct play for today. Do you at least understand why this is frustrating to me?

I only called your misuse of quotes "complete rot" and I stand by that. I don't mean that as a personal attack. I simply mean that a number of your points were founded on misrepresentations of what I had said.

I absolutely agree that SOME of the points that I presented did not provide strong evidence. The post you quoted above is an example where I misunderstood your intentions. When you posted "if dybeck is the SK," this implied to me that you were seriously considering the possibility. If you weren't seriously considering it, fine. But this is a misunderstanding, NOT misrepresentation. It's only misrepresentation if I am deliberately distorting your views to further my own ends. And I think it's unfair to dismiss all of my findings as "misrepresentation" based on one or two instances where my reading differs from your intent.

If, by jumping to conclusions, you are referring to my attitude towards those who disagree with me on the SK thing, then I make no apologies.

I am referring to two things, both of which I think were demonstrated in your different reactions to the same argument being posted by me and shaft.ed:

(1) I think that you may have a tendency to make early judgements on players, and to allow your perceptions of those players to influence your interpretation of their content, and

(2) You have been assuming that people who QUESTION (not deny) your arguments are scummy. While I have some strong opinions in this game, I do not assume that people who do not agree with those opinions are necessarily anti-town. There is room for different perspectives and opinions among the town. There is nothing wrong with someone questioning my own arguments, no matter how strongly held.

This may come down to a question of play styles. It's frustrating to me because this is one of my first games, and I have been putting in a TON of effort to help the town out as much as I can. To have that effort twisted into further evidence of scumminess makes me feel that the effort just isn't worth it, frankly.

I am not ignoring your numbers. As I've said, the numbers look reasonable to me. But as a newer player, I do not want to assume that your numbers represent an ironclad pro-town strategy. I have been asking questions and thinking of possible scenarios in which those numbers could be pro-scum simply because I DO NOT HAVE THE EXPERIENCE TO FULLY EVALUATE THE NUMBERS ON THEIR OWN MERIT.

[Gemelli]

I got your prod strefflo and i'm here. Vollkan i'll answer your questions soon.

AlyG, we need a lot more than answering questions at this point. We need your input on ALL of the players in the game, and we need your thoughts on who the right lynch is for today.

It's been a long, long time since you posted anything with a substantial amount of content. Please: we need you to weigh in this week! Posting your scumdar ratings of everyone in the game would be a good start; posting your opinions on the cases vs. dybeck and originality would be another.

[vollkan]

Re-read both of our posts. It looks to me like shaft.ed and I are both saying that one of the two players, originality and dybeck, is the correct play for today. Do you at least understand why this is frustrating to me?

If you are reading shaft.ed that way, then absolutely I understand your response to my attacking you. If shaft.ed is taking the "we must lynch one of them approach" then I will jump up and down at him as well.

I absolutely agree that SOME of the points that I presented

did not provide strong evidence.

The post you quoted above is an example where I misunderstood your intentions. When you posted "if dybeck is the SK," this implied to me that you were seriously considering the possibility. If you weren't seriously considering it, fine. But this is a misunderstanding, NOT misrepresentation. It's only misrepresentation if I am deliberately distorting your views to further my own ends. And I think it's unfair to dismiss all of my findings as "misrepresentation" based on one or two instances where my reading differs from your intent.

The bolded is euphemism.

In this game (I mean "mafia" generally, not "Mini 495"), the "misunderstanding" thing is one of the easiest techniques of scum. I've done it as scum in games myself. You take a quote and alter its meaning just slightly to fit a picture you want to paint and then, if attacked, you call it a misunderstanding.

All I have to go on here is what you say to me. If what you say results in a HoS and what you say is a flawed argument, I am going to see it as misrepresentation. (On that note, given our exchange, does the HoS stand?)

Additionally, it need not be conscious distortion. Cherry-picking quotes which meet a picture you are trying to pain also results in the same thing. In that case, the distortion is indirect.

I speculate on every possible option. At some points, I may get into my speculation and begin to reason within that speculation, making it look like an arbitrary change, but it is how I reason through things: By looking at every scenario and flowing with it. Similarly to me going devil's advocate on myself regarding Orig for a bit. I just wanted to see what the case was like.

(1) I think that you may have a tendency to make early judgements on players, and to allow your perceptions of those players to influence your interpretation of their content, and

That's not how I see shaft.ed's argument, remember.

On a more general level, I would like to think that I attack all points on their logical merits. I may be inclined to view posts by my suspects with a greater paranoia, but I don't think that matters providing that I address the arguments themselves.

(2) You have been assuming that people who QUESTION (not deny) your arguments are scummy. While I have some strong opinions in this game, I do not assume that people who do not agree with those opinions are necessarily anti-town. There is room for different perspectives and opinions among the town. There is nothing wrong with someone questioning my own arguments, no matter how strongly held.

I have been assuming that those who question my arguments are scummy when they adopt positions, or profess to be "unsure", without actually refuting my arguments.

I suppose, my expectation is that if someone has a genuine concern they will actually ask me a question, rather than simply sitting on the fence.

This may come down to a question of play styles. It's frustrating to me because this is one of my first games, and I have been putting in a TON of effort to help the town out as much as I can. To have that effort twisted into further evidence of scumminess makes me feel that the effort just isn't worth it, frankly.

If this is the case, I know precisely how you feel. I was not twisting what you said, and I find it rather odd that you would use that word choice. You attacked me with flawed points, misrepresenting me in effect, if not in intention. I cannot judge your subjective intention, so I can only go by the objective intention which is expressed in your words. That intention was one of contortion.

You'll notice that I haven't actually FoSed or voted you. It's because in my first game here, as vanilla, I got trampled upon for attempting to scumhunt but making all the wrong mistakes. I don't see what you have done necessarily as a definite scumtell, but believe me that I've got my eye on you.

It would be remiss of me not to come down hard on you for it.

Please whatever you do, do

not

stop posting.

That's absolutely the

most

important thing.

Not to sound pretentious, but if I could give you some advice it is to make sure that you check and double-check ANY post reference you make to another player.

I am not ignoring your numbers. As I've said, the numbers look reasonable to me. But as a newer player, I do not want to assume that your numbers represent an ironclad pro-town strategy. I have been asking questions and thinking of possible scenarios in which those numbers could be pro-scum simply because I DO NOT HAVE THE EXPERIENCE TO FULLY EVALUATE THE NUMBERS ON THEIR OWN MERIT.

Okay, so the main issue here is that you are not confident enough to judge whether or not the numbers are the result of scumvollkan trying to fool you.

That's fine. If that has been the problem all along, I should be kicking myself for not understanding you earlier.

I frankly don't know how to prove to you that they are pro-town, since by the sound of things that requires proof of my alignment (and even then, their validity is not iron-clad).

[vollkan]

AlyG, we need a lot more than answering questions at this point. We need your input on ALL of the players in the game, and we need your thoughts on who the right lynch is for today.

It's been a long, long time since you posted anything with a substantial amount of content. Please: we need you to weigh in this week! Posting your scumdar ratings of everyone in the game would be a good start; posting your opinions on the cases vs. dybeck and originality would be another.

This gets a QFT.

AlyG, as the only confirmed (well, not entirely) townie, your opinions are especially important.

I don't want another IOU. I want a scumdar.

[shaft.ed]

Are people (well... Korlash and shaft.ed) still waiting for responses from me? Can your questions be put, BRIEFLY, in one post? Like... as briefly as you possibly can. I've read too much rubbish in this post already.

Definitely something a cop would say [/sarcasm]