Newbie 1726 (Game Over)

[ecane]

Pick up info how exactly? I didn't really see you putting much effort into getting those reads and information you're talking about.

No I was pushing Delta for the fun of it /s. And you're ignoring the obvious. How people when they react when they have a wagon on them can often be telling, so I waited to see the reaction. Which as stated, was useless because both left.

Fair enough, but that was the only push or remotely townie thing (if you want to call it that) you did in this game. Everything else you did was more or less just answering questions, not being too bothered by what was going around you, and not ackowleding any reads or even your own vote untill you were asked to, even though we were out of rvs. Waiting for the reaction isn't very productive imo as well.

[ecane]

You said in your last post before 91 that I have not stood out to you yet, now you're saying you had a town lean on me.

Not buying any of these answers.
VOTE: Gratuitous

You do realize there were nearly 48 between those posts, and having been asked that question I might have done a skim of your posts in that time period?

Not to point out truck sized holes in your logic

No, you answered that when Foxbird asked you why you only adressed me in 91 and you claimed you had a town read on me back then, while in 87 you said I have not stood out to you yet. Pretty sure it's not 48 posts between those.

[Gratuitous]

48 hours,

[ecane]

Or 48 hrs whatever. And you still didn't think that you could maaaybe mention that, since you apparently noticed that in those 48 hrs and not when others have started townreading me.

[innocentvillager]

hey will get to this tonight sorry.

[Zorblag]

@Gratuitious, if, as you claim, you're not the lynch for today then you should really be doing more to help us see who is because I'm not particularly sure I believe you at this time.

@RachMarie, I don't think you addressed it with the last post, but, again, what is it that Foxbird is doing that's scummy if she's a more tricky player than you were taking into account before?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[RachMarie]

Sorry if you missed it Troll

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=67505

The last couple of pages are pure gold

Along with her other hydra head she pulled a fake claim of watcher and claimed that they watched me visit kuribo and blocked him from shooting SSK (who turned out to be town but i was scum reading him because I totally missed that Kuribo was scum fake claiming.)

They then speed lynched Jiffy while he was still at work, encouraging ssk to vote with them, knowing he was at work. They knew I was town reading him too hard to do it, I just knew he was town. And I also knew there was a good chance he would vote for me when he got back on, believing the claim so I pushed back.

It was a beaut of a gambit.

So that was why I voted for Fox. However she did make a good point about Kuribo being the one setting up the gambit in the first place.

[RachMarie]

Mostly PoE actually

Plus more suspicious because of game

[innocentvillager]

Hi guys, am here, and starting to read up now. Expect in a post in the next 30min-2hours.

[Jaack]

Okay, time to review zorblag, starting with the first game relevant post. I've edited out some of the conversational stuff and bolded things I find noteworthy.

OK, let's get some thoughts out there and see what we can't do to get town moving.

• We'll want fiddlercrabontheroof's thougnts on the game soon so that we've got anything to work with for that player slot as alexs left us with nothing helpful.
  
  
• delta9 left us with a bit more, and I see what people didn't like about it. There's the initial vote (fine if dull,) posts that don't help the game state and then we've got the a sort of unclear post in 65 which vaguely connects to half the game in at least one way, but which doesn't seem to be something I'd expect Gratuitous to do much with in the post he was asking about (despite the answer given later.)
  I can see how it comes across as disengaged with what appears to be an attempt to throw something out there to be a part of the conversation rather than scum hunting.
  
  
  Having said that, the "I quit" as the followup under a bit of, not even pressure, but scrutiny perhaps, largely leads me to believe that our brand of mafia just wasn't the game for him. I'm inclined to call it a null tell.
  
  
• Given that last thought, here's what we get as reactions to this: almost nothing. Foxbird at least acknowledges that the "I quit" happened in his next post (2 days later,) but then applies a vote for pressure (as an aside, calling something a pressure vote is a good way for it not to have as much pressure in general,) after saying this could be scummy behavior or apathy thus putting a player who there's some reason to believe won't be there to defend them self at L-2.
  It's pretty easy to see potential scum motivation there.
  It would have been nice to see the others who were talking about delta9 say something about the abrupt termination of at least the train of thought if not his participation in the game as well.
  
  
• Nachomamma8's play has mostly been fine if lackluster. There are clear acknowledgments that his resources are being used outside this game and that he hasn't had the energy for it so I'll live with that for now, but I'm hoping we can get more engagement in the future.
  
  
• I sort of agree with ecane in Post 99. It's a bit of a simplification, but too much of Gratuitous's play feels like responding to questions without expanding much and not obviously looking into what others have done. It's not as clear cut as my initial reaction was when I went back and looked in isolation, but there's less clear concern about finding scum than in answering questions than I'd like. This isn't to say that you shouldn't answer questions as town, but town should always be looking at motives for the game going on around them.

I'm going to stop here for now before this gets too long, but I'll post more in just a bit. I haven't finished going over everyone in isolation yet, in paricular I need to look at Jaack and Rachmarie.

Zor's initial read on me:

Having asked that, I'm actually fine with Jaack's play for today. If he's town he's poking about like he should for the most part so we can default there for now. If he's scum then he'll be alive in the later game and we can bother with that later on (much like I said about Nachomamma8.) As long as he keeps doing things that make connections for the future he's not a good day 1 lynch.

Further summary of zor's reads

@Foxbird, I could see how that could be the case for delta9. The timing bothers me a bit (your post was 2 days after his, but with the activity state in the game in general being what it was at the time that's less useful than it might otherwise be.) I'm not saying I'm sure you're scum; I'm saying that I can see good scum motive for that action. I also tend to think that you're dancing around calling people scummy a bit (Nachomamma8 and delta9,) which I don't love, but will admit that I do as well. It could be playstyle but I don't have enough information to determine that yet.

I also think that scum could easily be lurking this game (in fact they almost certainly are in that I'd say that pretty much the entire player base can count as lurking.) I don't think that I'd call lurking to the point of being replaced (alexs and possible delta9, though that I'm reading as a more intentional quit at this point,) scummy lurking so much as disengaged lurking and not so alignment indicative.

The longer fiddlercrabontheroof goes without posts now the worse he looks though, so there might be something more there.

I try to follow the pronoun preference that people have listed, but if I was one of the people who called you he I apologize. The internet is a place where assumptions get made, sometimes despite our best attempts to avoid them.

@Everyone, at this point I'd put my reads as follows:

Scummy enough to be a lynch candidate today: Foxbird, Gratuitious, RachMarie
Lurkers we could lynch and I won't be too sad based on play till now: delta9, fiddlercrabontheroof

Not worth lynching today for at least one reason: Jaack*, Nachomamma8
Probably Town: ecane

*Jaack might be closer to probably town, I need to think about it a bit. It's not as strong a town read as ecane certainly, and as I'm saying it's not a lynch I'd be at all interested in pursuing at this point.

I don't have a hugely strong scum read on anyone at this point and the biggest thing I want to see in the next 3ish days in content from everyone.

And here's his follow up to the Rach-scumread

@Foxbird, Her scum hunting. Or rather the lack of it. She's got plenty of presence and I know that she's busy, but the biggest reads she's coming up with are based on lack of activity rather than what people have done. That doesn't offend any active players (which scum usually want to avoid doing,) and doesn't feel to me like town seriously trying to figure out the game state. She's given answers to the questions I've asked, but little else to push the game forward. There's also the same vague lack of commitment to calling things scummy that I'm mentioned a bit concerning you.

That's a lot of quote junk that I probably could have cleaned up better, but I think that gets all of zor's initial thoughts on each slot.

fiddler/alex: No read on fiddler because there is nothing to read, although he does hedge that statement in favor of a scumlean, bolded in 125
delta/IV: Not really a read on delta, also due to low content, but again hedges this with a scumlean, bolded in 110
foxbird: When talking about foxbird's vote on delta he says "It's easy to see potential scum motivation here" (also bolded in 110) which is about as weasel wordy as you can describe a scumread.
nacho: townreads
jaack: almost the exact same read as he gives for nacho, although I seem to be slightly more town
ecane: unexplained townread, although basically everyone seems to be townreading ecane
gratuitous: similarly to his read on foxbird, zorblag uses a lot of hedging language to scumread gratuitous
rach: I have no really issues with this scumread in isolation.

Now the only one of his reads which I felt was incorrect in that I really disagree with the end result was gratuitous-scum, but the constant hedging and weasel words are pretty scummy.

Now that we have that out of the way, let's go through the progression of zorblag's play since then.

At the end of his ketchup, zorblag is voting foxbird.
Having been momentarily appeased with his slot, I decide to join the foxbird wagon and vote in 129.

I'm going to note here that prior to this point in the game, I had been pretty much scumreading foxbird and the caston/zorblag slot about equally, but had been voting caston/zorblag for the reasons I described in 88, which is to say, because the wagon on caston was larger. I will get back to this.

After my vote, here is zorblag's next post.

I do have good news though. It's pretty easy to get my vote off you if you want to. Just convince me that you're trying to catch scum. Like I said, my reads aren't exceptionally strong at this point so rather than spending effort defending yourself I'd recommend spending the equivalent effort showing me who else is scum instead. That helps the town more anyhow.

This quote reads more to me like zorblag wants to stop scumreading foxbird and is looking for a reason. I'm assuming that based on his vote for her, foxbird was zorblag's number one scumread, but this doesn't read at all like he's trying to push fox.

The point I'm trying to get at with this zorblag/foxbird stuff, is it feels like zorblag was manipulating me to move my vote from him to foxbird by giving me a wagon I'd obviously had some interest in for a while. Once that was accomplished, he tried to manufacture a way off the wagon to let me drive it instead. If I successfully drive the lynch I wanted, then I take the fall when foxbird flips town. (this is assuming that foxbird and zorblag are not partners, which if they are, then I officially need to just roll with the reads I get from page one and ignore the rest of the game) If the wagon sputters, then I'm distracted for another day.

tl;dr version - I feel like zorblag's initial push on foxbird was to try and get me to vote foxbird as opposed to any real scumread.

That took longer than I expected to piece together, but I want to get it out there.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: zorblag

[innocentvillager]

If you guys want an update of what I am doing, I stepped away from this game for a bit, am eating dinner, and am working on a massive PbPA wall. I'm going to see how this works out, even if I don't like PbPA myself too much. I have to really try this game for Zorbs <3

[Zorblag]

@innocentvillager, I think you can try without a massive PbPA wall. Don't undo what you've already done, but really, what we want are your thoughts on what's happened and the vote for your top scum read. At this point and with a deadline looming getting that done efficiently is more important than just about anything else.

@RachMarie, so you're voting for Foxbird because she was sneaky in that other game? I grant that it might be a great gambit, but unless you see things that she's doing here that are likely scum motivated that seems like a poor move. Her alignments in the two games are independent and unless she'd have more reason to do something as scum here than she would as town here, fear of good scum play isn't a good reason to cast a vote. You're saying process of elimination, but I'm not at all certain that you should be able to eliminate the rest of the players as potential scum. I think I'm just not understanding something that you're doing somehow.

@Jaack, it's mostly fine with me if you want to suspect me at this point, and in fact I'm pretty sure you're town now. I don't think that Scum would bother with the effort to post that given the current game state. I'll give a couple thoughts on what you have to say though.

• You seem to think that I care a lot about what you in particular think and how your going to be casting your vote. I don't really; I'm trying to figure out if you're town or scum, but I fully expect you and everyone else to be casting their votes for whoever they find scummiest. If you feel that I lured you into changing a vote I guess that's up to you, but it wouldn't be worth my time or effort as either town or scum.
  
• I didn't have a town read on Nachommama8 when I made my comments about him. I thought he wasn't worth lynching today. That's still true, though I'm a closer to thinking he's town at this point. The main point though is that if we're both still alive come day 3 or what not then it's time to start asking why that's true if he's town. I'll encourage everyone to try to think those sorts of things through as the game goes on.
  
• I am more concerned about fiddlercrabontheroof now for exactly the reason that I said I would be if he hadn't posted. He's been in the game as long as I have, over 4 days now with a deadline that's less than 2 days away, and we have nothing from him. Scum gain much more by not being part of the game if they're not under pressure than town do because scum need to live and town need to actually figure out who scum is.
  
• My reads are probably going to change as the game goes along. That's why I ask the questions I do of people. I don't typically think that I've got everything nailed down tight and I'm probably not going to act like I do. Town should in general always be working to improve the strength and nature of their reads and I find that interacting with the people I suspect more is what helps me do that.

Outside what you've written in that last post, I'd still really like to hear your thoughts on why Gratuitous is town at this point (assuming you still think he is.)

@everyone, At this point, my top three candidates for a lynch are Gratuitous (I've done more thinking and have mostly talked myself out of my concerns there, remind me to bring it up after the game if you're interested in knowing what the whole deal was,) RachMarie and fiddlercrabontheroof. Tomorrow I'll likely make sure my vote is on whichever of those three gets us closest to a lynch. I'd rather not put the lynch off until deadline if possible. That's a good way for something unexpected to come up that gives us a no lynch which we really don't want out of day one.

ecane, Jaack and Foxbird all strike me as likely town right now. I need to see what innocentvillager does, but I'm not overly worried about his slot just at the moment as I expect to gain information from him shortly. Nachomamma8 can be town enough unless and until he's still around in a day 3 or later situation barring something unexpected.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[RachMarie]

I am reassessing Troll

[RachMarie]

I mean reassessing my read on fox not on you still think you are town

[Zorblag]

@RachMarie, I'll be interested in hearing what you think after taking another look. I'll be more interested in hearing why.

@Zaicon, could we get a prod on fiddlercrabontheroof please?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[RachMarie]

yeah Im not impressed with crab, I was giving him a chance to catch up

[Zorblag]

It's really frustrating having a slot that does nothing the entire first day. More-so because although it's a better move for scum than town, it's still done by town too often. Replacements who do it are probably the most frustrating because the slot has had multiple players have a chance to do something that didn't for whatever reasons.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

I mean, I might be complaining about lack of scum hunting from you or how you go about it or whatever, but at least you're here playing and I can get some interaction reads and try to sift through how much is play style and how much is motivated from that. I've got none of that to work with for fiddlercrabontheroof.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[RachMarie]

and that is making it harder for me to sift through too

too many under active and inactive slots even PoE is tough

[Zorblag]

Do you not like to use direct tells very much? Process of Elimination tends to help me much more in the end game than the start as I have so much more to work with then (and hopefully the inactive/underactive players have shaped up, shipped out or been removed one way or another.) At this point I'm pretty happy with what I've got from direct tells on most of the players in the game. I might be wrong on some, but I've got something. I feel people have been fairly forthcoming with their thought processes.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[RachMarie]

yeah I do that too but I like to get an overall pic of everyone at least a preliminary one by the end of the first day definitely by the end of the 2nd. Sometimes I have to reassess but I am a big picture type of person.

Will be doing a couple of hydrae to work on improving my game.

If crab does not do more I could see him as a compromise lynch. I am also leaning toward grat even though there are some differences here in his play, it could be hes doing that cause he knows I just saw him win as scum

Iffen you want I can provide link to that game

[Zorblag]

I've read that scum game (or at least skimmed it and read the post game.) It's given me some pause, but there's a lot I don't like about what he's doing here so I'm mostly over that. For now I should let you get back to taking a look at Foxbird.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@innocentvillager, please please please make getting this in by tonight your priority. The greatest analysis ever that we don't have time to use does us no good for this game day.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[innocentvillager]

Finally, I'm "done". I did a super-detailed analysis of pages 1-3, realized it was going to take way too long, started just reading carefully but stopped summarizing stuff (Seeing how short this game was, I got excited and I wanted to do a super detailed note process where I could just read my notes again if I wanted to check my reads so I summarized everything, but clearly it wasn't feasible), and then the last two pages I honestly just skimmed.

Key: Anything in normal text is just objective summary for pages 1-3. My thoughts are all in bolded green. At some point i think I stopped using bolded green.

Spoiler: My notes on the game

----page 1------

5: Rach v Nacho RVS
6: Jaack v delta RVS
7: Foxbird v ecane RVS
8: ecane v Caston RVS (2nd on playerlist?)
9: Grat v Rach RVS (Worked out well the last time he did it)
10: Rach mentions it was Grat who was scum and won the game
11: alex v Foxbird RVS
12: delta v Caston RVS
13: Caston v delta RVS OMGUS
14: Jaack asks why delta over ecane
15: Caston responds bc RVS and chose by random.
16: Jaack asks Caston to propose how to get out of RVS, and that random votes won't do anything.
17: Caston agrees, says we should have conversation. Asks Delta9 mafia experience.
18: Fox notes same reason as alex said in 11 was used to RVS him. Asks,

correctly

, why only asked delta and not engaged person talking to him already.
19: Caston explains that he asked delta because he's new. Just trying to get some discussion among newer players. Then asks what Foxbird's experience is.

At this point I feel a little weird about Caston. In 15 he "randomly" picks delta to OMGUS instead of ecane, who also voted him. The fact that he justified it as random is a little odd, since to me, I would've just said "Because delta just voted me", when ecane had voted him quite a few posts back. But instead, he said it was random due to RVS, which seems like a forced reasoning.

17 looks like somewhat awkward appeasement. He agrees with Jaack, and then immediately asks a super random, not game-advancing or comprehensive in any way, question that doesn't help with anything (what is delta's exp with mafia). It's so lighthearted and insincere that he even asks Foxbird again in 19 with an emoji. So basically, what I don't like about 17 is that he (1) appeases Jaack (minor), (2) asks a random question that clearly does not advance the game, (3) he only asks delta, when there are other newbies he could've asked, which suggests insincere questioning and (4) shows in 19 that this was so lighthearted that he clearly wasn't trying to actually advance out of RVS. (4) is the kicker for me, and I'm

inclined to already give him scumpoints for this

, even though I don't normally give scumpoints this early during RVS.

19 solidifies the fact that he's not actually trying that hard to get out of RVS, as I said previously, especially with the question at Foxbird. Why didn't he just ask Foxbird and delta (along with other newbies) at the same time? This was a question that wasn't well thought through, which is a bit scummy.

20: Foxbird answers and drops her questioning of Caston,

which I thought was totally on point (the questioning)

. Extends the question to all the newbies,

which is what Caston should've done at the very beginning if he actually cared about getting out of RVS

.

21: Caston responds to the question himself, is a newbie too (second game), is trying to be more interactive this game since last game he was quiet.

I skimmed his ISO that game, and I can affirm that he was a pretty lurky scum for a lot of the game.

22: Jaack asks newbies how they're trying to get scum based on experience.

This is a good question, but I get a weird gut overall feeling about Jaack trying to get out of RVS already (along with 16). It's clearly still the first page, and the game is young, while he himself has done nothing to help get out of RVS. It almost looks like scum trying to pretend like he's trying to get out of RVS, but the fact that he proposed it so early looks a bit insincere and forced.

Minor scumpoints for Jaack.

23: Foxbird responds to Jaack with "scum has to participate first" to stimulate activity. Says she thinks lurking is a scum tactic from other games.

To me, this looks pretty genuine because she had a clear train of thought, and qualified at the end that it wasn't great, which shows that she's actually considered the pros and cons of what she's been doing.

So far, I've gotten a general townvibe from Foxbird.

.

24: Rach tells foxbird any game-moving discussion is good, and that she wants Nacho to post.

Very slight townpoints

for asking mod for Nacho to join in the game, but honestly scum!Rach would probably do that too.

-----That's page 1, phew! Onto page 2-----

25: Rach clarifies experience.
26: ecane says first time playing forum mafia, some EM, and says lurking is scummy for new players but not experienced.

I completely agree.

27: ecane asks what meta is.
28: delta clarifies experience, says 2-3 forum games, some EM.
29: Foxbird explains what meta is.
30: VC
31: Grat clarifies exp, 1 town 1 scum on MS, some on other site
32: Rach says Grat and Franky were good scumteam in previous game
33: Nacho pops in, says he'll come in soon
34: Rach "YAY Nacho"
35: Foxbird asks if RachMarie will be able to tell if Grat is scum based on that game.

Slight townpoints for Foxbird, looks like a genuine question, being proactive about scumhunting.

36: Rach responds: "Not immediately, but will compare".
37: ecane thanks Fox for explanation in 29.
38: Foxbird wants to stimulate discussion and is complaining about the game speed (suggests an RQS).

Minor townpoints.

39: I'll just quote it:

Not in the first two pages, no but I will definitely compare his play here with the other game/

Which is to say RachMarie is going to wave off any kinda scummy things I do, b/c "it doesn't match my last game." Thanks scum-buddy! /s

This post is weird. I know it has the sarcasm tag on it, but who is the "scumbuddy" being referred to here?? I'm going with

null

for now, but will keep this post in mind...

40/41: Clearly unhelpful and irrelevant RQS.

Get a weird vibe from this, but I don't think it's AI, since the game truly is slow at this point.

42: Rach clarifies that she never said she would do what Grat suggested in 39, and that meta is better with multiple t/s games.
43: Rach says that she would use more than just meta to read, asks if Grat's vote is serious now, and what he thinks of the 2 wagons.

I don't like these two posts from Rach very much. Grat was clearly joking in 39 even if you didn't know what /s meant, and to actually ask for whether the vote was serious or not is just oddly defensive. She asks another question about the two wagons with two votes, which is random enough that it just looks like an "attempt to be useful."

Slight scumvibes from Rach.

44: Grat clarifies that his 39 was sarcasm, and that Rach's defensiveness me him FOS her.

I agree, the defensiveness was weird. I don't think defensiveness to accusations is scummy in general, but 39 clearly wasn't an accusation.

He also says he doesn't know what he thinks because not much has happened, but will keep an eye on Jaack/Caston.
45: Foxbird jokingly answers grat's 40, and asks Grat why he's looking at Jaack/Caston.

Good question here.

46: Rach says she didn't know what /s meant.
47: Rach asks another question about Nacho popping in without an RVS vote.

This is a valid question, but it still looks like she is just asking questions here and not doing much/contributing herself. I like to ask empty questions as scum, for example, because it makes me look like I'm doing something. My main problem with this question is that she literally JUST asked a question about the wagons. She didn't really get a great answer from (so why ask that in the first place?), but then she just moves on to another question like she never asked it? This behavior suggests that her first question was pretty insincere and that she wasn't really trying to get anything from it besides just asking a question.

More Rach scumpoints.

48: Rach's SE moment about meta. Filling in IC role in Nacho's absence.
49: Foxbird responds to Rach that she doesn't like Nacho's just popping in, but then says it's NAI.

I have

mixed feelings

about this post, but I can definitely see it coming from town. For the scum side, I don't like that she "doesn't like" what Nacho is doing but then calls it all NAI. But from the town side, she could just be wording it so that she just doesn't "like it" form-wise, as opposed to it actually pinging her scumdar. Plus, I kind of agree with what she's saying.

-----

Reads at this point:

Scummy: Rach, Caston
Null slightly leaning scum: Gratuitous, Jaack
Townish: Foxbird

Null: Everyone else (Nacho, ecane, alex, delta)

-----Page 2 done, next page 3----

50: delta responds to joke post, but doesn't contribute anything.
51: VC
52: Caston activity post, will be more active in 2 days
53:

RVS truly ends here with Jaack's 53, IMO.

Jaack immediately makes the first accusation/true reads of the game:

Was hoping to get an answer from caston before offering my take on things but whatever.

Got early scumbuzzes from caston and foxbird. Caston's 17 felt like he was trying to appease me more than anything.

Foxbirds initial interaction with caston looked kind of awkward. Also didn't particularly like his doubt casting on nacho before he's really done anything.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: caston

I could go for an early wagon to kick start this game.

I kind of agree with some of the reasoning here and it is a clear attempt to get out of RVS in an abnormally slow game, so I'll put

Jaack back at null

. Of course, I got the opposite read on Foxbird, but he shares similar reservations to mine on the Foxbird doubtcasting Nacho thing before he's done anything (the whole "why say you don't 'like' something if it's all NAI?" thing). I agree that Foxbird's initial interaction with caston looked awkward, but I think the awkwardness was mostly from Caston, not Foxbird. Looks like a genuine readslist with plausible reasoning and game-advancing content.

54: Foxbird is confused on why casting doubt on Nacho was scummy.

55: ecane agrees with Jaack's 53 on Caston but disagrees about Foxbird's scumhunting. Doesn't like Foxbird's 54.

I agree with the first part completely. However, I don't see Foxbird's clarifying comment in 54 to be AI, so I'm confused where that "dislike" comes from.

Very minor townpoints for ecane.

56: ecane asks Foxbird why she didn't acknowledge what Jaack said about the awkward convo between Fox/Caston.

I don't see any reason to acknowledge that necessarily, but I can see this question coming from a town POV since it shows that ecane is examining interactions very carefully. For a newbtown, Foxbird not acknowledging a part of a post can read like they're intentionally dodging an accusation they know to be true, and I wouldn't expect newbscum to come up with that level of scrutiny.

Some townpoints for ecane

.

57: Caston defends himself against Jaack's 53 that Caston was trying to appease Jaack in 17, saying that he was just trying to start some convo.

As I mentioned, I don't think he was trying to get out of RVS at all, but this post says all he wanted to do was to move the game along slightly faster with some convo. I guess I may have been a little too harsh on Caston earlier, so here I think

I'll upgrade him to a lean scum read

.

58: Foxbird defends himself against ecane's 56, saying it was awkward because game start was awkward, but it worked.

59: Caston asks clarification question on what post Jack is referring to.

60: Jaack explains to Foxbird that Nacho's absence doesn't imply scum, but if the lurking was strategic it would be scummy. Asks ecane why he disliked 54.

For the first part, Jaack clearly just missed Foxbird's comment that it was NAI, as Foxbird notes soon. Maybe slightly scummy, but could just be an honest mistake. Jaack's question on ecane's dislike of 54 is very valid, since I see no reason to think it's AI.

61: Foxbird sarcastically shows Jaack that he was misrepped.

62: Caston responds to an old Jaack post on why he thinks knowing experience is useful.

I'm slightly pinged that this was responded to so late that it seems random, but I guess it could be NAI. Has a similar view to ecane's stance on lurking.

63: Grat responds to Foxbird's wondering about what pinged him (Grat) about the Jaack/Caston exchange. He says Jaack looked too hard like he was trying, and didn't follow up on pushes. Says Caston's responses were overly simplified/stiff answers, and designed to stop conversation.

I agree with the read on Jaack, I had similar reservations. I don't really see the Caston's overly simplified/stiff answers thing as much, more that his questions didn't really seem sincere. Regardless, I feel slightly better about Grat,

so he's back at null for me.

64: Ecane finally responds to what she didn't like about Foxbird's 54: Says the answer wasn't necessary, and she didn't acknowledge the interaction with Caston.

Consistent reasoning, even if I disagree.

65: Delta pops in with an insightful question about how Grat would feel about Jaack's RVS-ending 53,

which is something I didn't even think of.

Minor townpoints for delta

.

66: Rach "prodge"

67: Nacho comes in! Criticizes Caston for switching RVS strategies/caving to Jaack/insincere hunting.

I agree with this post.

68: Nacho attacks Jaack for early over criticalness of game approaches.

I once again agree.

69: Nacho defends Foxbird's 38.

Wow, I agree with this post too.

70: Nacho asks Jaack why Fox/Caston interaction was awkward, and why Foxbird's small push was weird.

Nitpicky questions that have been answered, not a huge fan of these posts. Just looks like random questions.

71: Nacho realizes some questions have been answered. Puts Jaack, Fox, Rach at town, and Caston/Delta at uncomfortable.

I really don't see how Nacho can have Jaack as town after what he wrote about Jaack in 68 and the scrutiny in 70, the former post for which I scumread him (Jaack) for. WTF?? Also the delta read is weird and unsubstantiated. Of course I disagree with the Rach read.

I'm actually inclined to townread Nacho for 71. I feel like scum!Nacho would want to make his previous posts as coherent has possible with his reads, so that his reads don't seem super random. The fact that his reasoning on Jaack suggests the polar opposite of what his actual read is at the end shows that he is not particularly paying attention to such superficial appearances.

Townlean on Nacho for 67, 68, 69, 71.

I still hate the playstyle of 71, lol. The delta vote is super random and impossible to defend against since no reasoning was given, and the Jaack townread is inexplicable as well.

72: Asks delta why he asked the question in 65,

which I thought was a pretty insightful question tbh.

73: Caston reasonably defends.

74: Jaack explains stuff. 74, read all about it.

I think Jaack's criticism of Caston is on point. Actually, I like the whole post.

Jaack feels nullish to me now.

-----

Reads at this point:

Scummy: Rach
Leaning Scum: Caston
Null: Gratuitous, Jaack, alex
Leaning Town: delta
Townish: Foxbird, Nacho, ecane

-----Page 3 done, next page 4----

I'm going to stop summarizing the posts (or give very short, non comprehensive summaries) and just comment on them starting now, since the posts are getting longer and frankly it would just take too much time to continue summarizing them at this point. Also this is taking wayyy longer than I thought I would so I need to save time somehow. Will only comment on posts that stick out to me now. So no longer using the bolded green.

79 scumvibes from Foxbird's "I'm not commiting on page 2". The wording suggests that the scumreads are for the town to know about her stance, not for her personal desire to sort out the scum.

Foxbird is probably only Townish for me now

.

The whole 80-86 discussion on delta's "What did you (Grat) think about 53?" thing is weird af. Delta gives an okay explanation (I thought it was a great question as a followup, but I never considered that it might be "weird" that Grat didn't include discussion of Jaack's 53 in his post.), for which Grat begins to accuse him of doubtcasting. I think both are town here.

But then delta quits. I mean, wtf?? I don't see this coming from a town or scum mindset. Lolz.

Jaack's backoff on Foxbird is pretty townie actually in 88. I'll move Jaack to a lean-town. Also like the back off and reasoning in 98.

---end page 4----

This is still taking too much time, I need to go to sleep, and my computer is getting super laggy. Sorry guys. I'm going to just read the thread normally for the rest of it with minimal sructiny and will look at some ISOs later when I'm not groggy.

Page 5 general thoughts: Zorblag's entrance looks pretty town, although his methodical and logical style is pretty consistent across all games so I'm hesitation to actually townread him for that, lol. I need to look at this slot more closely, especially since Caston was pretty scummy.

Page 6 general thoughts: Yeah, I'm still liking Rach for scum. I still can't read Zorblag even though he looks so damn townie and objective, lol. Other than that no real change in reads.

I managed to forget that delta is the same slot as me, whoops. I apologize for all of the previous delta reads that I may have made. I was leaning town on that slot though

Page 7 general thoughts: Okay, I don't like Zorblag's weird question to Foxbird in 153 about comparing her play to Rach's play. He even says later in 162 that it wasn't really a fair question and that it didn't really matter what Fox answered. So Zorblag, what did you even get out of that question?? Why ask it in the first place? If you were reaction testing, you didn't mention what the result was. The other thing that bothers me is that you switched your vote from Fox to RachMarie in that very post. If you had something in mind of why Rach was scummier than Foxbird all along, why a) ask the question and b) wait for Fox to answer to switch your vote? I find this part very scummy for Zorblag.

Nacho looks town again.

Okay tbh I straight up skimmed page 8/9.

Page 8 general thoughts: Ecane's giving me serious gut scumvibes. I'm not sure what it is yet, but I'm highly suspicious of ecane after some of those page 8 posts. I'll ignore it for now since obviously ecane isn't getting lynched (hell, even I had a townread on her!) but I'm like 60% sure this slot is scum and depending on the flip I think I plan to case ecane heavily D2. Will rethink ecane later.

Page 9 thoughts: Jaack is town. Ecane scumvibes are still there.

-----

Okay, final readslist:

Scum: RachMarie, ecane
Lean Scum: Zorblag
Null: Fiddler
Null lean Town: Gratuitous, Fox
Town: Jaack, Nacho

VOTE: RachMarie

Rach's pre-Zorblag game was pretty scummy and unhelpful despite her complaining about the game state herself. I mention some detailed criticism of this in my notes. Then Zorblag comes in and suddenly her activity is through the roof, a lot of it being meh NAI discussion with Zorblag.

Let me know if you want more explanations on stuff, I will try to respond tomorrow since this game is almost going to deadline.

[innocentvillager]

Oh anything I underlined in the notes referring to the first few pages refers to reads, so you can see my read progressions lol.

I've never done anything like this before in my 50+ games, and honestly I don't intend on doing anything like this again in the near future, that was just damn exhausting. I think I just got a little too excited when I saw Zorbs and Rach in the same game with me <3 Sorry for the massive wall.