Mini Normal 1809: Game Over

[Egg]

At the very least you'd have seen comments about hating mafia and not wanting to be in games

[Hoopla]

On the other hand, Egg has self-voted as scum before and called for his lynch.

I think he threw out that little suggestion because he thought it would get him towncred. The fact that Egg is not above using fake towntells as scum is another reason I don't weigh his thinking you had a cop guilty on cmitc1 very strongly. He would know that cmitc1 is town and that if he believes there was a guilty, that would a "towntell" on his part because it would supposedly show that he was uninformed about cmitc1's alignment.

Well, this was probably the main reason I was thinking Egg was town in spite of his under the radar nothing posting. This is pretty jarring.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Egg

Wingback is obliterating this game.

[Egg]

*shrug*

The two people I said are scum are voting me now.

[Egg]

Guess it makes sense when they had to NK cmit.

[Wingback]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=66557
Why not even look at my most recent town game? It shows how busy I've been. 30 pages behind for most of the game. Also, if you've meta'd me as much as you seemed to, you'd have seen me self vote as town I'm sure.

A couple of things here: that game was moving at a breakneck pace (100 pages in around 25 days). This game has fifty pages in around forty days. You're looking at a Large game that was moving nearly four times as fast. Besides, this game has stalled completely, yet you are still coasting not making any more effort to figure out Hoopla and/or Blank by going over their early posts, asking Hoopla questions and so on. Given that you have been second-guessing your scumread on Hoopla for her VT claim, I'd expect more effort in trying to figure her out. At this point, it looks like you are faking uncertainty so that you don't go out on a limb pushing a mislynch.

I haven't read every town game of yours. If you've either a) self-voted, or b) suggested a lynch on you for dumb reasons like you having a one less game to play, feel free to link it for me and I'll consider it in context of everything else.

At the very least you'd have seen comments about hating mafia and not wanting to be in games

Hating mafia is completely different from saying "Hell, I don't mind being the lynch myself. I wouldn't mind having one less game to play." It's a stretch to believe the latter as an honest opinion and fits in much more with you wanting towncred for the suggestion.

The two people I said are scum are voting me now.

This is fake as fuck. So, both scum decided that instead of taking the pretty much guaranteed Blankface mislynch before a replacement comes in, decided that tunneling you, Egg, who no one has suspected for a long time was a better move, when we all know that replacements change the dynamic of a slot and could potentially make it obvtown if they are town.

[Egg]

Blank is far from a guarantee. Hoopla was more likely. Probably still is.

I'd give you links but I don't have time. I'm amazed you didn't find it on your own considering you're giving meta from like 2 years ago.

[Egg]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=59772
^this town game is probably the closest to this one for me.

Highlights:
-behind in the beginning, detatched and feeling useless when caught up
-refused to claim
-guessed someone's role wrong
-constantly too busy to do much

Gotta charge my phone and I'll try to find time to look for a "fuck it, lynch me" game, but really any game where I got lynched or even close to it you'll see me get cranky and/or careless regardless of my alignment. Team mafia would have been like that if it wasn't such an important game.

[Egg]

Ok, let me take the time to give a mostly proper response.

Your point:
My reaction test could have gotten you to claim.

My response:
Worst case scenario was that you look obvtown for doing so. With so many power roles outted already, I wasn't going to out a strong power role or anything. Best case is I catch you in a lie and we lynch scum. It would be pointless for scum and possibly harmful. For town it was probably still pointless, but could have helped.

Your point:
Trying too hard to "show work"

My response:
You are apparently very familiar with my meta so it shouldn't surprise you that I tend to be very transparent as town and try to appear the same way as scum

Your point:
I was tying people to Masq when I voted Masq

My response:
Nah, if anything I tied Hoopla and Wake and then tied Hoopla to Masq after Masq's flip. I don't like to tunnel on just one person. I'm looking for the whole scum team or at least the scummiest players Days 1 and 2. Hoopla and Wake interacted in ways that looked scum/scum, but I was more confident Masq was scum so that's where I voted. You'll also notice I raised the point that Chaos was a weird kill but he suspected Masq and the rest of his reads were similar to mine. That still stands out to me and is a big reason why I haven't changed my reads much.

Your point:
My offer to be lynched isn't a towntell and looks like an emotional appeal

My response:
I concede that it's something I'd do as scum for a combination of town points and genuine dislike of mafia. However, I deal with real emotion all the time as town too. I really want to be in 0 games, but every time games end people ask me to join another and I suck at saying no. Not wanting to play has been a common theme for me for quite a while. Same with being too busy to play.

Your point:
I might be scum with Elyse

My response:
If I die, this becomes irrelevant. If Elyse dies and flips town, same thing. If Elyse dies and flips scum while I'm still alive, I'll address this. But for now, it's pointless.

Your point:
I had a townread on Elyse

My response:
True. PoE would probably be the only reason I'd see to vote Elyse. It crossed my mind when Hoopla claimed VT, but nothing in her play looks like scum to me. Her suspicion of BBMolla looked genuine too.

Your point:
I was passive and casual while voting Masq

My response:
I was busy and behind in all of my games. Null

Your point:
I bus as scum except when I don't

My response:
I'm right as town except when I'm not. Seriously the fact that I've bussed before doesn't mean that I'm scum every time I vote scum. To be fair though, you said the only thing it shows is that my Masq vote isn't a reason to town read me and I can't disagree with that. What I'd challenge people to do is read my ISO in that game just like you suggest and see how every chance I get I'm attacking Newbie. Every chance I get, I'm showing what obvscum my scumbuddy is. I didn't act that way towards Masq. I found a few points and stuck to them. My case, while right, wasn't nearly as strong as that one was. And if you open the scum PT from that game, you'll see that I replaced in and singlehandedly turned around a disaster of a game for scum (of course Titus helped later on too). Here, I think everyone will agree it would be shocking to see a similarity in any scum PT I'd be part of. My play there is almost exact opposite from here in almost every way except that I voted scum.

Your point:
Suggesting a lynch on myself is stupid

My response:
*shrug*. My intelligence has been insulted so many times on this site that maybe you're right and I'm just an idiot. But like I said, I don't enjoy this game anymore. I really don't. It was a selfish comment. I'll admit that. But sitting here arguing with people on my phone and hearing how dumb I am is a big part of why I want to have very little to do with this site. I like the fantasy football league, but that's about it. But if you think you're smarter than me, *shrug*, what can I say? Maybe you're right. If not, I don't even care frankly. I still intend to find a link by the way.

Your point:
Thinking Grendel had a guilty on cmit is faking a town tell

My response:
See, I'm not usually one to show why things I do are town. I usually let people figure that out on their own. But here, I'll make an exception because it feels obvious to me and you aren't seeing it (still not sure if it's intentional or not). I don't see any way I'd come up with that out of the blue as scum. I mean, I think it's obvious that "looking for power roles" is usually seen as scummy. I didn't expect town points for that. I didn't care how I was read for it and actually expected some suspicion. So, that in mind, it only makes sense to say it if I genuinely thought Grendel was a cop. And you can argue that I intended to NK him and that's why I went all "tell me how confident you are" and "should I sheep you?". Like it makes sense as scum rolefishing. But here's the catch. Me trying to determine whether Grendel has a guilty on cmit as scum requires cmit to actually be scum. Cmit was town. So why bother doing it as scum? It isn't something that looks town because it can come off as rolefishing (i've shown it obviously wasn't) so it's not for town points. And I can't be scum who thinks he has a guilty because cmit wasn't town. So why do it? And if your arguement is that it's to make this exact post, you think I'm psychic because I knew you'd replace in and question me on it all the way on Day 3 and I'd wait until then to address it.

Your point:
Following up on the previous one, you mentioned that I was apparently trying to appear uninformed on cmit's alignment

My response:
So we're going with the point that I'm psychic. Otherwise, why wasn't that brought up until now? You've got to realize this is a stretch

Your point:
My Masq push was bad

My response:
I disagree obviously.

Your point:
I should have voted Blank at deadline over Vedith

My response:
I asked for the Blank case. no one gave it. House even openly refused. So I voted Vedith so was actually scummy over Blank who I had no info on. You mention that it was 5-2 when I voted. I was unaware of the vote count if I'm remembering correctly.

Your point:
I'm uninvolved as scum

My response:
Nope. That depends on real life, not alignment. You appear to have picked and chosen games to fit your narrative.

Your point:
My being uninvolved here is different from adventure mafia because that was a bigger and faster game

My response:
Both this game and that one were going on at the same time. There, I was about to be lynched just for being busy so I put that game above this one on my priority list. So pages and pages building up in that game directly impacted my activity here.

Your point:
Hating mafia is different from not wanting to play it

My response:
Nuh-uh

Your point:
My calling you and hoopla is fake

My response:
No, I've been saying that for quite a while, not just when you voted me.

[Elyse]

Prodge until tomorrow sorry

[Grendel]

I am having difficulty figuring out where I stand right now. Still not supportive of an Egg lynch. hmm

Maybe I should read through the thread again.

Probably not tonight though.

[Grendel]

@Wingback, You said you were going to respond to the rest of post 1304. When will that happen?

[Dierfire]

VOTE COUNT 3.10

Hoopla (3): Elyse, Grendel, Egg
Egg (2): Wingback, Hoopla
MathBlade (1): BBmolla
Elyse (1): Killthestory

No Vote (1): MathBlade

With 8 players living, a lynch requires 5/8 votes.

TIMER

Deadline will be set for 72 hours from now.

(expired on 2016-08-12 23:00:00)

NOTES

MathBlade replaces BlankFace. Welcome, and thanks for helping out!
Prodding Killthestory and BBmolla

[MathBlade]

Replacement confirmed will read when I get home.

[Grendel]

Cool. So three more days to fiddle around with. Lets see what I can do tomorrow.

Welcome to the game MathBlade.

[MathBlade]

Cool. So three more days to fiddle around with. Lets see what I can do tomorrow.

Welcome to the game MathBlade.

Thanks! So why are the top three wagons getting votes? Next post should succinctly summarize your thoughts while I start reading and ISOing.

[BBmolla]

Here

Excited to read math blade content

[Killthestory]

reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[MathBlade]

Hoopla is likely either scum or at least one scum on the wagon as there wasn't a quick shift towards lynching Egg or putting an additional vote to push a claim.

So we have a world whether either Hoopla is scum and/or one of Elyse/Grendel/Egg are scum.

When I get further along I will post general thoughts but the town block stuff from Hoopla rubbed me the wrong way at the start of the game.

@group -- Haven't seen any succinct thoughts yet. I especially want them from Hoopla/Elsye/Grendel/Egg because there has to be scum in that group.

[Wingback]

@Egg;

re: Post 1332,
1. You actually did tie Hoopla and Masquerade together pre-flip. This happened in Post 901. I also don't follow how Hoopla and Wake interacted in a way that looking scum-scum, simply by posting on the same page but not interacting with each other. Besides, that's not an original thought. You ripped it off of House.

2. The problem with your play around Grendel and cmit is that if you thought Grendel was a cop with a guilty, there was no reason to ask any questions or try to get further information if you are town. Masquerade was the most likely lynch and if Grendel truly was the cop, he would have claimed at some point to divert it to cmit. That he didn't claim in his first post of the day means that he was probably looking for interactive tells before he outed. There's no way a cop with a guilty doesn't eventually claim so nothing was needed from your end.

3. Your Masq push was bad because you were using perfectly null tells to paint her in a scummy light. Two instances of this are a) her answer "sort of" could easily have applied to just her weakness but you stretched it to mean that she had hidden strengths that she didn't want to talk about, and b) even if she wanted to hide her strengths as scum, it's perfectly acceptable to not want to reveal your scum meta regardless of alignment but you ignore that entirely and shoehorn it as her being scum which reads to me as inside knowledge that she is indeed scum.

4. Saying "I hate mafia" is perfectly acceptable outlet for frustration that doesn't interfere with your wincon. But self-voting or suggesting that you be lynched does, and while I can see newbies doing the latter as town, I have a hard time believing a player with your level of experience would make that suggestion. So, when you get a chance, I'd really appreciate seeing the links to where you did this as town.

With that said, you have me second-guessing my read on you with this response so I'm going to reset and try and re-read the game from a different perspective tomorrow.

[Wingback]

@Grendel;

re: Post 1335, I was holding off on continuing to defend Hoopla because my solid townread there is evaporating given her latest posts. I wanted to see her get back into the game and defend herself but nothing she's posted in the game has re-assured me that I was right so I'm considering the possibility that I was wrong here.

[Wingback]

@Hoopla;

re: Post 1326,
1) Not a fan of the overt buddying of me. I hardly think I have a solid grasp on the game and this post sends all kinds of alarms especially since the entirety of your interaction with me has been cheerleading from the sidelines as opposed to offer any sort of opinions or content. Is this normal play for you as town? Can you link me to games where you were mislynched or were on the brink of being mislynched? I'd also like to see a game where you took the backseat and just went with the reads of another player who you thought had a better handle on the game.

2) I have a hard time buying that your townread on BBMolla at the end of D3 in fifty page long game with over five weeks of playtime amounts to "he had an emotional meltdown" on page seven a couple of days after the game started. You have stated paranoia of him for just coasting on the townread you gave him but it's concerning that you never followed up on that line of thought. On your Post 1188, there isn't much thought required to claim that he was neighborized and to summarize cmitc's posts in the neighborhood PT. That's a pretty weak reason for it to have assuaged your concerns about BBMolla's lack of scumhunting. Mind going over it in more detail so I can see if there's more depth to it?

3) If you are town here, I'd like to avoid mislynching but as it turns out, you are the concensus scumread and you not nothing has made me second-guess my townread on you considerably. Especially given you seem happy to post in the Open Setup Review thread which shows you have enough time to spare for mafia-related activities. This is also at odds with typical town behavior where players about to be lynched want to get as much information and reads out there as possible. In fact, it fits with the scum motivation of trying to minimize interactive tells and going down quietly once they see the writing on the wall. Assuming you are town, I really need something from you, hopefully a massive wall of content with in-depth and updated reads.

[MathBlade]

Grendel, if Masquerade is a vig and still has a shot, this is a CONFIRMABLE role with a second kill tonight. Scum probably won't have a roleblocker this game, as a blocking role has already flipped town, so we absolutely should see another kill tonight if Masq is truthful. If no extra kill happens tonight, sure, we lynch him tomorrow (or if he claims he shot last night, we can lynch him today).

Masquerade is a pointless lynch today, when it's highly likely we'll know his alignment tomorrow.

Still reading but out of those 4 Grendel is town since they CC'd Masquerade.
This post from Hoopla is hella bad. Looks like Hoopla is trying to buy time for another kill.

Intent to vote Hoopla. << As stated before I think scum could flash hammer while I am reading here so I want to be caught up before I vote.

[MathBlade]

throwing this out there, why would cmit be roleblocked

I think it's more likely ascetic or rolestopper making elyse scum

Because scum intended to keep cmitc1 alive until lylo or when he was lynched, as such, they are minimising risk and RB'ing him in case he has power? Doesn't seem like a stretch.

My pet theory is scum having a rolestopper though, and Elyse being protected by her buddies from kills/investigations as she was looking the most likely to go deep in the game.

Either seem possible. Lucky for you molla, I want Masquerade and Blank to die first, which will tell me if Elyse is scum before we try and find the tricky third scum.

Why would Hoopla be discussing scum's intentions here? And how would he know them? If he was town wouldn't he think that same question? How would Hoopla KNOW that scum wanted to keep Cmit alive?
This soft defense of Elyse screams a Hoopla/Elyse world. Will be looking more into that as I read.

[MathBlade]

^that's good, cmitc.

~~

VOTE: Masquerade

Hopefully we lynch the scum PR today.

1) If scum have 1 PR how does Hoopla know? This assumes facts not in evidence. Assuming Hoopla scum here this probably makes them a goon.

[Hoopla]

@Hoopla; re: Post 1326,
1) Not a fan of the overt buddying of me. I hardly think I have a solid grasp on the game and this post sends all kinds of alarms especially since the entirety of your interaction with me has been cheerleading from the sidelines as opposed to offer any sort of opinions or content. Is this normal play for you as town? Can you link me to games where you were mislynched or were on the brink of being mislynched? I'd also like to see a game where you took the backseat and just went with the reads of another player who you thought had a better handle on the game.

Why is buddying explicitly bad/scummy? Recognising when someone else is dominating the game with reads and effort that I'm not able/willing to make seems perfectly okay to me, when for the most part, I haven't played that well or had the energy to give the game my everything. As for whether this is normal for me or not, it's hard to say. I think it's slowly starting to become a pattern for me and a part of why I don't play mafia anymore -- I just cannot generate same amount of zeal and fire to crush games with brute force analysis like I once could, and it ends up with me being apathetic, because I know it takes a lot of energy to change people's minds and put the dots together in late game, and I just cannot do it and fall into an existential tailspin. Perhaps this is a sign I shouldn't be playing mafia any more, because it isn't fair to the other players, and I legitimately don't know how to adapt to a simpler, more fluid gamestyle.

Looking at my wiki for you, literally the last town game I was in (Mini 1456), a similar thing happened at the endgame.

Why isn't hoopla dead

the fact you're so convinced it is me is going to lose us the game if you're town, because whoever the scum is will keep us alive together tomorrow.

i don't really know any more. i've mentally checked out a while ago, so i don't think i can rely on being accurate, but it's obvious to me that if we don't lynch scum today we will be in autoloss situation tomorrow if you're town. so... i don't know where i'm going with this. but it's what i see unfolding.

Funny enough it was Elyse again tunneling in on me. She must be allergic to me or something. She was actually town that game though!

~~

In Mafia With The Quickness (post 1163 onwards) you will also witness some of my shameless sheeping qualities as I try to handle being in a game with too many players and too many posts.

As I write all this out, this is becoming a bleak realisation about the nature of my limits and expectations as town, and I feel embarrassed that this has become a part of my town meta. I don't know if I should thank you or bury my head in the sand for making me do that for you.