Newbie 1728: Training Your Dragon Mafia [Game Over]

[Vedith]

Out of the hospital and doing a lot better.

[hiplop]

At the very minimum, multiple people were suspecting innocent. If I'm looking to get attention off me, I'd be more likely to throw attention onto someone else than try to eviscerate it

[reso]

Well then. here I go. A hiplop thing.

VOTE: cobalt.

Interested in this.

I found this vote on Cobalt rather interesting. You chose not to disclose any reason, but rather express your interest in the wagon. This tells me that at the time, you did not have a read on Cobalt, but instead chose to jump on the wagon to see what happens. In your following Post #301, roughly 1 day and 2.5 hours later, you exclaim that Vaxkiller is your second guess for scum, so I assumed PhantomCobalt was your first choice. Even in this post, you did not declare any reasonings to your vote on PhantomCobalt.

I do have reasons. I hope I haven't been too absent,

but it is partly intentional.

I am trying to keep my reads fairly transparent, anyway.

Would prefer to remain quiet on that for now

I'd really like you to explain this.

Tomorrow.

Allow me to bring up one of your very first posts in this game.

A lot of scumhunting has to do with understanding perspectives of where a person is coming from

Right now, I and neither does most of everyone else understands your perspective. You are intentionally not participating regularly, choosing to continuously withhold information, and have asked us to give you a pass until Day 3 on a whim despite having done nothing to warrant it. Of the things you have talked about were theory and gamesense, but you've been vague on where exactly you stand with your lack of reason (which you've said, that you'll work on that, but even now... nothing). To me, it looks like you are hiding something, which tells me that you are either the Cop or you are a mafioso with the knowledge of your partner. I have stated before that I don't find a lack of participation to be AI, but rather anti-game. HOWEVER, I do find active lurking, an active lack of participation, choosing to read and not post, very scummy, and so I do view you as scum at the moment.

Not going to lie, part of the muted posting has been a sort of fesr of getting nightkilled. Happens a lot recently and its no fun :+

Not going to lie, it's no fun dealing with someone who refuses to participate regularly.

At the very minimum, multiple people were suspecting innocent. If I'm looking to get attention off me, I'd be more likely to throw attention onto someone else than try to eviscerate it

POINT. THIS. OUT. TO. ME. Don't throw out a blanket statement. Give me posts. Give me linked quotes. Give me your backed PERSPECTIVE.

[reso]

Only Scum!Hiplop could know IV's alignment and 'clear' him.

Maybe you should add three extra words to that sentence, which are," for no reason." If there is a reason, it should be fine.

If there is a reason, maybe he should be explaining his PERSPECTIVE (yes, I am going to using and capping this word for the rest of this game) to us. If he does, then there is still a problem.

Oh, because I forgot to do so in my previous post, VOTE: hiplop
That should be

L-1

, folks.

[Vaxkiller]

This is what I have been saying from the beginning of the day in 590 !!!, It's why I started voting for hiplop. He has no reasons behind any of his actions. He does not explain anything, just votes someone, maybe sometimes agrees with another, has a town/scum read on someone... all feelings with nothing to back it up.

This post really killed it for me tho:

You said you were clearing him. Why would you clear him if Town!Hiplop couldn't know IV's alignment?

I can be really, really confident.

The backpedal always trips you up...

To me, hiplop claimed, then thought better of it, and has been trying to cover his tracks ever since. He still hasn't explained any of this scum/town reads, and is really just making confusion.

At this point we should really be digging in to find his buddy. I really thought innocent villager, but that seems WAY to obvious, but then maybe its just WIFOM.....

[innocentvillager]

Hey friends! I am here, and reading up on the thread.

I tried PbPa recently in other games, no way am I going to try that for 30 pages.

I'll probably just give reads, maybe quote a couple of things I think are noteworthy, but I'm mostly focused on reading up so I can actually engage with players this game.

[innocentvillager]

I have nullreads for Vaxkiller, hiplop, and innocentvillager. I don't think that activity (or a lack of) is very AI. There's really not much the contributions of Vaxkiller and hiplop to talk about.

While IV does have more to talk about, it really doesn't feel like much more. He's ignored the majority of my questions regarding what I thought of my link of RyanK between himself. I still think his Post #70/Iso #10 is weird. He has more coming up, so I can for that to come out.

Would rather see you flip scum and potentially find out which setup we're playing in to be honest.

Hey, sorry, was doing other stuff but eventually got back to this

I am all caught up in terms of reading, but am getting tired AF so I may or may not have skimmed past some of the walls especially D2.

Scum is in: {Vax, Mav, Vedith}

Everyone else is obvtown.

Ask me questions you have.

[innocentvillager]

Ignore quotes, sorry.

I think I was very minorly townreading RyanK at the very beginning because:

1) Tonal/general willingness to engage with this game is townie. He even told everyone when he was going to go offline. I instantly got the feeling that he was going to be an active poster, and I was right.

2) On his moving the wagon vote. I could tell RyanK was probably pretty new at mafia, and especially since he didn't have games on this site, he wouldn't know anything about RVS or how serious the votes are. Yet, I got no sense of typical newbscum fear/tempered posting. From a glance it looked bold, confident, genuine.

I may be letting later posts of RyanK cloud how I was actually feeling like 2+ weeks ago, but I just had a feeling that slot could be town.

[Vedith]

@IV - So to confirm, you are sayign that HipLop is town, correct?

[innocentvillager]

I'm conflicted on Mav since his play is similar to 1722 where he was town and we deathtunneled each other and eventually ended up ccing each other as the diagonal PR.

But maybe Mav is trying to emulate town meta with his deathtunneling here.

@Mav, do you have any scumgames you can link me?

@Everyone

I want to deeply apologize for promising content multiple times and each time not following through. My reason was due to RL exam week stuff (paid off though, snagged an A in my biochem class!), and me being in more games than I could handle, so I prioritizing posting in games where I was reasonably caught up. As this game drifted further and further along, I became increasingly apathetic about trying to catch up with this game, so I kind of avoided it while posting in other games. Still, it is not an excuse for constantly breaking promises, and it is something I normally do not do but I did multiple times this game. Again, my apologies for kind of stalling out the game and my slot.

Now that I am caught up, however, I imagine I will be more active on this thread.

VOTE: Vaxkiller

I have a lot more investigating to do (I haven't really ISO'd anyone yet), but for now I'm liking Vax for scum. Mav and Vedith I will need to sort later.

If have questions (which I'm sure you guys have), ask away and I will respond tomorrow.

[innocentvillager]

@IV - So to confirm, you are sayign that HipLop is town, correct?

Yeah.

There were definitely multiple points in the thread where I would be thinking something and hiplop just came in and posted exact same thoughts. Like e.g. stuff on how Vaxkiller looked super gut scummy but he couldn't put a finger to it thing.

There is no scum motivation for doing what he's doing today.

You all seem to be forgetting that hiplop is putting an inordinately small amount of effort into this game. Remember, in his RQS that I wrote, he said he tries a lot harder as scum. He doesn't give a fuck this game. His reads make sense, he is just commenting when he feels like it (very lazy-experienced town attitude for someone who prefers scum), and this crumb shit is totally unnecessary as scum and no scum motivation other than a terrible PR rolefish if it is one and I highly doubt hiplop is that terrible or trolly as scum to do that.

[innocentvillager]

Yeah Vax is pinging my gut scumdar so hard.

[innocentvillager]

I really thought innocent villager, but that seems WAY to obvious, but then maybe its just WIFOM.....

Like does this quote for one just not sound terrible and extremely forced

[reso]

You all seem to be forgetting that hiplop is putting an inordinately small amount of effort into this game. Remember, in his RQS that I wrote, he said he tries a lot harder as scum. He doesn't give a fuck this game. His reads make sense, he is just commenting when he feels like it (very lazy-experienced town attitude for someone who prefers scum), and this crumb shit is totally unnecessary as scum and no scum motivation other than a terrible PR rolefish if it is one and I highly doubt hiplop is that terrible or trolly as scum to do that.

Here is his complete statement:

5) (for those who have played before) What's your towngame like, and what's your scumgame like?
Hmmm... I try to shake things up. Especially once your meta becomes known being able to adapt both is super important. I think I've played too many games for their to a concrete answer to either of these? I tend to be rather aggressive as either alignment. I prefer the Mafia alignment, though, so I tend to put a little more effort in.

You're right in that he has stated that he 'tends to put a little more effort in' (you over-exaggerated it; why choose to over-exaggerate than simply tell it as it is? At the moment, I perceive this as an indirect AoE). But before that statement, he's also said he tends to be rather aggressive as either alignment. I would have loved to see this 'aggressive'-ness, but instead we get what you have described him as, 'very lazy-experienced'. I agree that he doesn't give a fuck about this game. He's being anti-game, and want him to get his act in order. I want to see his Beast-mode.

[reso]

I honestly don't care if his 'Beast-mode' rips me a new asshole open. In this game of learning, tough love is always good love. I. WANT. TO SEE. THIS. BEAST-MODE.

[Maverick1102]

I have no scumgames yet on-site IV, much as I'd want one. I don't put faith in Metanalysis anyway as you ought to know so I'd rather your reads on me were based on just this game, to remove the WIFOM element.

[Vedith]

There is no scum motivation for doing what he's doing today.

So is there town motivation for the way he is playing?

[RyanK]

This is my full case against innocentvillager.

...
There were definitely multiple points in the thread where I would be thinking something and hiplop just came in and posted exact same thoughts. Like e.g. stuff on how Vaxkiller looked super gut scummy but he couldn't put a finger to it thing.
...

Since you agree with hiplop that Vaxkiller is scummy, please state why.

...
There is no scum motivation for doing what he's doing today.
...

How did you know that?

...
You all seem to be forgetting that hiplop is putting an inordinately small amount of effort into this game. Remember, in his RQS that I wrote, he said he tries a lot harder as scum. He doesn't give a fuck this game. His reads make sense, he is just commenting when he feels like it (very lazy-experienced town attitude for someone who prefers scum), and this crumb shit is totally unnecessary as scum and no scum motivation other than a terrible PR rolefish if it is one and I highly doubt hiplop is that terrible or trolly as scum to do that.

If you understand hiplop's reads, please explain each one of them. I don't understand why he reads Maverick1102, reso, innocentvillager as town and need some understanding.

...
Here is his complete statement:

5) (for those who have played before) What's your towngame like, and what's your scumgame like?
Hmmm... I try to shake things up. Especially once your meta becomes known being able to adapt both is super important. I think I've played too many games for their to a concrete answer to either of these? I tend to be rather aggressive as either alignment. I prefer the Mafia alignment, though, so I tend to put a little more effort in.

...

What is the purpose of taking hiplop's words out of context?

[RyanK]

I'm having difficulty understanding some terminology and couldn't locate them in the commonly used abbreviations. They are PR & AoE.

[RyanK]

I'm having difficulty understanding some terminology and couldn't locate them in the commonly used abbreviations. They are PR & AoE.

EBWOP: I'm having difficulty understanding some terminology and couldn't locate them in the commonly used abbreviations. They are RL & AoE.

[reso]

RL & AoE.

RL: real life (I'm going to assume you spend a lot of time off the computer if you don't know this one)

AoE is a mistake. It should of been 'AtE', or Appeal to Emotion. I guess I was thinking Appeal of Emotion.

[RyanK]

Thanks, reso.

[Vaxkiller]

I honestly don't care if his 'Beast-mode' rips me a new asshole open. In this game of learning, tough love is always good love. I. WANT. TO SEE. THIS. BEAST-MODE.

Yeah, I would like to see that too. I think we were starting to see a little of it, but, too little to late. I'm sure it might be hard for some people to separate RL and the game, but I think those of us who are left are all adults, right?

@innocentvillager Why is hiplop obvtown? I'm pretty sure you and him are the only people who think that.

[Firebringer]

Dragon Training Tip #21.Moving. Don't move your dragon. They don't like it. New places scare them.

Vote Count 2.06

Reso (L-4):
Vedith (L-4):
Vaxkiller(L-2): hiplop,innocentvillager,
RyanK (L-4):
innocentvillager (L-3): RyanK,
Maverick1102 (L-4):
hiplop (L-1): Vaxkiller, Maverick1102, Reso,

Not Voting (1): Vedith,

With 7 Alive, It Takes 4 to Lynch

Day 2 Ends In (expired on 2016-08-15 02:00:00)

Mod Notes: Hey guys this is your friendly mod here to tell you that I am in process of moving. I don't expect to post any VCs until Friday night or Saturday morning when my move.

Thanks!

[innocentvillager]

Spoiler: reso 738

You all seem to be forgetting that hiplop is putting an inordinately small amount of effort into this game. Remember, in his RQS that I wrote, he said he tries a lot harder as scum. He doesn't give a fuck this game. His reads make sense, he is just commenting when he feels like it (very lazy-experienced town attitude for someone who prefers scum), and this crumb shit is totally unnecessary as scum and no scum motivation other than a terrible PR rolefish if it is one and I highly doubt hiplop is that terrible or trolly as scum to do that.

Here is his complete statement:

5) (for those who have played before) What's your towngame like, and what's your scumgame like?
Hmmm... I try to shake things up. Especially once your meta becomes known being able to adapt both is super important. I think I've played too many games for their to a concrete answer to either of these? I tend to be rather aggressive as either alignment. I prefer the Mafia alignment, though, so I tend to put a little more effort in.

You're right in that he has stated that he 'tends to put a little more effort in' (you over-exaggerated it; why choose to over-exaggerate than simply tell it as it is? At the moment, I perceive this as an indirect AoE). But before that statement, he's also said he tends to be rather aggressive as either alignment. I would have loved to see this 'aggressive'-ness, but instead we get what you have described him as, 'very lazy-experienced'. I agree that he doesn't give a fuck about this game. He's being anti-game, and want him to get his act in order. I want to see his Beast-mode.

Hiplop definitely prefers the mafia alignment, and he said he would put more effort in.

Look at Newbie 1704, for example. He was V/LA many times during that game, but he still managed to post a LOT even while in that game.

His tone is also completely different. I don't see any lackadaisical-town vibes from it, hiplop always looked like he has some sort of agenda in that game. Here, honestly I see no agenda for hiplop, and that combined with the fact that he tries more/is better at/likes mafia-alignment, are all strong clues that he's town here. I suggest you all at least skim hiplop's ISO that game if you are voting for him and see if that changes your mind, I'll admit this is a bit less concrete than a lot of townreads.

I have no scumgames yet on-site IV, much as I'd want one. I don't put faith in Metanalysis anyway as you ought to know so I'd rather your reads on me were based on just this game, to remove the WIFOM element.

I am aware that meta means jackshit sometimes, but I think it definitely can be useful. For example, if I TR or SR someone for anything, if I have some time and I'm really curious about the read, I will look for scum/town games to see if I get the same read I am getting here. If, for example, I scumreading someone for something when I see they've done it in another game where he flipped town for that, that speaks volumes about that player, so clearly my SR for that can't be trusted. The same is true vice-versa. For you, it would've been particularly nice for you to have a scumgame on here, so I can tonal-read you and see if you're just as tunnelly as scum as you were here and another game I knew you were town in. If you were also tunnelly like this in your scumgame/gave me a similar vibe to 1722 or something, I would know not to townread you for doing stuff like this.

So while yes, looking at stuff in a vacuum is generally a good way to read stuff, meta can help me get a bigger picture of what you are at least CAPABLE of as both alignments.

It's a shame you don't have a scumgame here yet (or maybe this is your first? ).

There is no scum motivation for doing what he's doing today.

So is there town motivation for the way he is playing?

Looks like bored townie who didn't really feel like catching up, kind of like me.

After all of the pages that were literally with ridiculous math/semantic arguments, it's not hard to imagine the genuine apathy that arises.

Spoiler: Response to RyanK 742

This is my full case against innocentvillager.

...
There were definitely multiple points in the thread where I would be thinking something and hiplop just came in and posted exact same thoughts. Like e.g. stuff on how Vaxkiller looked super gut scummy but he couldn't put a finger to it thing.
...

Since you agree with hiplop that Vaxkiller is scummy, please state why.

I told you I couldn't really put a finger on it, much like hiplop earlier. That one post I just quoted is an example of some of the gut scummy things he says. When someone ends something with "Then again, maybe it is just all wifom OMINOUS DOT DOT DOT" it looks like they're just outing reads to say stuff without actually scumhunting and it looks insincere.

You're right on that I have to do more analysis on Vax though. So far, it's been PoE, gut, hiplop's agreement that he's scum, and tonal tells like this.

...
There is no scum motivation for doing what he's doing today.
...

How did you know that?

Because I don't see any scum-motivation? I've explained why I don't think scum!hiplop is nearly as plausible as town!hiplop.

...
You all seem to be forgetting that hiplop is putting an inordinately small amount of effort into this game. Remember, in his RQS that I wrote, he said he tries a lot harder as scum. He doesn't give a fuck this game. His reads make sense, he is just commenting when he feels like it (very lazy-experienced town attitude for someone who prefers scum), and this crumb shit is totally unnecessary as scum and no scum motivation other than a terrible PR rolefish if it is one and I highly doubt hiplop is that terrible or trolly as scum to do that.

If you understand hiplop's reads, please explain each one of them. I don't understand why he reads Maverick1102, reso, innocentvillager as town and need some understanding.

I can kinda understand mav as confbiased townie but without a scumgame I'm not going to bank on that as a towntell so Mav is more of a null for me, but I feel hiplop on the reasoning since I am gut-inclined to townread him for looking confbiased and not ML-motivated.

I know I'm town, but also his TR on me is... well... let's just leave it at I know I'm town

reso's thought process is sooooo transparent and it's obvious, like you, that he's trying to find scum and is just honestly not approaching this like a newbscum would at all. Some specific posts really set my towndar off, but I'm not going to try and find those unless you reallllly want me to.

Now, normally I might try some weird gambit where I scumread one of you as a fake-out to save you from the NK, but at this point, three of you are pretty strong TRs and I highly doubt we will lose this game.

...
Here is his complete statement:

5) (for those who have played before) What's your towngame like, and what's your scumgame like?
Hmmm... I try to shake things up. Especially once your meta becomes known being able to adapt both is super important. I think I've played too many games for their to a concrete answer to either of these? I tend to be rather aggressive as either alignment. I prefer the Mafia alignment, though, so I tend to put a little more effort in.

...

What is the purpose of taking hiplop's words out of context?

I don't think I did?

I honestly don't care if his 'Beast-mode' rips me a new asshole open. In this game of learning, tough love is always good love. I. WANT. TO SEE. THIS. BEAST-MODE.

Yeah, I would like to see that too. I think we were starting to see a little of it, but, too little to late. I'm sure it might be hard for some people to separate RL and the game, but I think those of us who are left are all adults, right?

@innocentvillager Why is hiplop obvtown? I'm pretty sure you and him are the only people who think that.

He's not as obvtown as RyanK and reso, but I'm still pretty confident in him being town. Plus, the fact that his wagon is basically unopposed is pretty sketchy. If anyone thinks that implies a me-hiplop scumteam... well... LOL go ahead and be bad .