Newbie 1732 [Game Over!]: InnocentVille

[AstralFlare]

I agree that talking about this stuff usually helps scum more than town,

Withholding information is usually anti town. It's a game of an informed minority vs an uninformed majority. Anything that makes the majority more informed swings the game in their favor. I quite honestly do not understand the motivation behind town!TNE withholding info, she knows it'll make her look scummier and seems like a gross under reaction for a townie at L-2. More likely she's scum trying to bluff.

[AstralFlare]

0x40: Is the only time you're going to participate the time when Chrimi does something stupid? And even then you just call her out on it and call her a VI and that's it. Can I have your thoughts on TNE?

[Chrimi]

is that L-1?

It is. Some VIs can't even bother to announce when their vote puts someone at L-1 apparently.

she isn't a VI. She's playing fine.

Do you still think she's not a VI? Is putting someone at L-1 without declaring that it's L-1 something that players that know how to play the game would do?

Do you not consider this to have anything to do with policy lynching?

I don't think that lynching a VI for being a VI would be a policy lynch unless that was the primary reason.

The IC asked you to shut the fuck up with the VI stuff, so I suggest you do.

On another note, yes it is L-1, and thank you @Penguin for pointing it out, as I didn't realize it.

[Chrimi]

Also, yes, lynching a VI for being a VI falls

perfectly

under the definition of policy lynching. So again, shut the fuck up.

[PenguinPower]

is that L-1?

It is. Some VIs can't even bother to announce when their vote puts someone at L-1 apparently.

You need to stop. It's a distraction and not helping the town at all, and it is really annoying.

[implosion]

Do you still think she's not a VI? Is putting someone at L-1 without declaring that it's L-1 something that players that know how to play the game would do?

Yes, and I can probably point to countless instances of it in games I've played. In practice, like I've been saying for this entire discussion, it winds up being a playstyle thing; more cautions players will tend to announce L-1 votes (or sometimes even L-2 votes). Less cautious players will often not announce it, for one reason or another. It's certainly never a problem to announce when your vote puts someone at L-1 but it's not really considered a site norm to always announce it (maybe in newbie games, but it still doesn't mean it's a terrible thing not to do). Typically caution is expected to be exercised by the person joining the wagon to ensure that they aren't accidentally hammering.

I don't think that lynching a VI for being a VI would be a policy lynch unless that was the primary reason.

This is sort of arguing semantics; if that is part of the reasoning for a lynch, then it will be a policy lynch to the degree that it is driven by the target being a VI rather than thinking that they are scum. Again, things aren't black and white; lynches aren't just policy lynches or not-policy lynches.

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Eh. I don't like this post. For one thing you're cherry picking a game for us to look at, where you've had a reasonably good prediction rate, at least for this early in the game. For another thing you're appealing to ethos. Sure, you might be correct this game as well, but it's different players and a different setup now.

I picked that game for a couple reasons; one, it's fresh on my mind because I've been playing it for the past month and a half and it just ended, two, jibs mentioned my meta with regards to me having a lot of townreads. I wasn't trying to use that meta to argue that my reads are likely correct, sorry if I misspoke - I was just giving an example as town where I gave a lot of townreads on d1. I agree with shannon that it was a very different game; I was simply citing it to make that one point.

[implosion]

Yeah because making it easier for scum to NK the towniest player is the greatest contribution

bzzt

I've always disliked this reasoning. Scum are perfectly capable of reading the game themselves and figuring out which townies are likely to be townread, and seeing who no one scumreads. Scum have various reasons for killing any given person, either because they're being townread or because scum think they're a PR or for psychological games. So the cost of giving townreads is fairly low, because it isn't really giving scum that much useful information that they can't glean themselves.

Meanwhile the benefit is great: it can help clarify your stance on the game, which makes it easier for others to scrutinize your reads and enables better back-and-forth discourse, and it makes you easier to read because you're taking more justified stances. It provides more links between people so that once there's flipped scum, we can analyze reads more effectively to see who is a likely partner, whereas if you list two scumreads out of the seven other players and never comment on the other five we will never get this information for you if one of those five players flips scum.

I agree that you can make a concise case on a player but your case on 0x40 is just so simple; he's pushing a player he perceives as weak, so he's gunning for a mislynch on the weak player. That doesn't imply scum at all, and there's a lot more nuance to his play and his push than simply "pushing a weak player."

[implosion]

Anyway (speaking as IC) as I mentioned earlier, no one should hammer thenewearth yet. If someone else wants to vote her, they should announce intent to hammer and give her a chance to claim, so that we can evaluate her claim and decide what to do from there. If no one wants to hammer, that's fine as well; we can continue through the day and the wagon might dissolve and another might form. Just because a wagon reaches L-1, by no means does that mean that person is getting lynched; I've seen games with several L-1 wagons in day one alone.

[shannon]

We have Chrimi on AF, AF on TNE ,TNE on 0x40, and 0x40 on Chrimi in a round-robin of OMGUS and early game grudges. I think one of our scum is here

Why do you think scum is there? Last I checked, you had Chrimi and I as town, and PP and implosion who aren't in the round robin as null. Assuming your first scumread is Jibs, what makes you so quick to discount PP and implosion, and so confident that it's either TNE or 0x40 as second scum?

My post perhaps made me seem more confident than I am, but it just seems convenient that the whole thing keeps rolling on with these four players. and it's not like it's two sets of pairs cross-voting each other, it really is a round robin. So I think someone is invested in keeping that going as cover.

I should probably UNVOTE: Jibs at this point to keep my options open.

Ya'll are reading waaay to into texts btw

Yeah that's kind of the point of the game?

So...you were too busy, and needed 2-3 hours, to basically say that 0x40 is scum because he's tunneling your subjectively-called weakest player, Chrimi; and, that shannon is town because you said so but will never tell us. Oh and screw providing your town reads because...yeah...

Solid reasoning...thanks for your contributions...you have definitely helped town out here.

Yeah because making it easier for scum to NK the towniest player is the greatest contribution

bzzt

That's totally not a defense for not participating. It's not like scum can't make their own judgments about who's towniest. And it's also not like scum auto kill the towniest looking person - someone can be both genuinely towny and wrong about who's scum, after all. (Pedit - What implosion said)

So, the question is: Is TNE scum, or is he just being difficult?

[0x40]

Can I have your thoughts on TNE?

She has done basically nothing this game other than having scumreads on people without really giving a reason as to why. Reading her ISO now and like 40 out of her 47 posts are completely useless. She definitely needs to start contributing, and explain her post #343, if she doesn't want to be the lynch today.

[Jibs]

Ok, 340 seems like a reasonable defense from tne.

Sorry for any confusion earlier tne, I'm very tired.

[Jibs]

Hello Chrimi.

Could you weigh in here? I feel like you are better at reading waaay to into texts than I am. I usually consider all of that stuff pure princess bride nonsense.

[PenguinPower]

Ok, 340 seems like a reasonable defense from tne.

Sorry for any confusion earlier tne, I'm very tired.

For the shannon vote, or overall?

[PenguinPower]

When can we get a prod on Rocnix? I understand the weekend is just now over, but's it's been about 3 days...

[0x40]

I didn't realize it.

Could you please refrain from voting people without checking the vote count first? People die when they are put at L-0. You were one off from accidentally hammering, which is a bit concerning to say the least.

[Jibs]

Ok, 340 seems like a reasonable defense from tne.

Sorry for any confusion earlier tne, I'm very tired.

For the shannon vote, or overall?

Eh, those are basically the same thing to me at this point.

[PenguinPower]

Ok, 340 seems like a reasonable defense from tne.

Sorry for any confusion earlier tne, I'm very tired.

For the shannon vote, or overall?

Eh, those are basically the same thing to me at this point.

Then you're letting tne off too easy for a weak scum read that you haven't done for anyone else so far...that's concerning. Where's the questioning, pushing? Why does someone who have less content posts than anyone else get off with an "eh" based on less than 20 words?

[Jibs]

Hello pp.

Then you're letting tne off too easy for a weak scum read that you haven't done for anyone else so far...that's concerning. Where's the questioning, pushing? Why does someone who have less content posts than anyone else get off with an "eh" based on less than 20 words?

Here was my justification for that read:

I feel like town!tne ties up the shannon narrative before trying an unlikely policy attack on 0x40. If tne is town then I kind of feel bad for undermining her here, but I don't think 0x gets lynched today.

Now that I understand town motivation behind her shannon play, I have no reason for scumreading her. I would call her a slight townlean at this point--if she is scum, her partner would almost have to be an experienced player, imp or Chrimi or maybe af.

Can you tell me a little more about Rocnix? Any posts that stand out to you as scummy?

And what about 0x40? Why is it your job to tell him how to play the game in 354?

[PenguinPower]

Now that I understand town motivation behind her shannon play, I have no reason for scumreading her. I would call her a slight townlean at this point--if she is scum, her partner would almost have to be an experienced player, imp or Chrimi or maybe af.

Given the content she's provided, I still find it suspect that you are letting her off so easy based on your "understanding." You're questioning me more based on my one post than her overall contribution.

Can you tell me a little more about Rocnix? Any posts that stand out to you as scummy?

I've made my statements. I think she did start the wagon on TNE, which I find interesting...and could open up a few possibilities. I would like a prod and for her to return to see what happens.

And what about 0x40? Why is it your job to tell him how to play the game in 354?

Not trying to tell him how to play, but I'm far from the only one to state that he's gone too far. It's an objective fact that his sole focus is distracting and bordering on harassment.

Care to extend your rationale, logical questioning to TNE? Or does, "[expletive] town reads, [expletive] bussing" suffice?

[Jibs]

Can you tell me a little more about Rocnix? Any posts that stand out to you as scummy?

I've made my statements. I think she did start the wagon on TNE, which I find interesting...and could open up a few possibilities. I would like a prod and for her to return to see what happens.

Agreed on that prod.

Not trying to tell him how to play, but I'm far from the only one to state that he's gone too far. It's an objective fact that his sole focus is distracting and bordering on harassment.

That's fair.

Care to extend your rationale, logical questioning to TNE? Or does, "[expletive] town reads, [expletive] bussing" suffice?

I'm happy with my read for now, but I want Chrimi to weigh in on 340. There is quite enough pressure on tne already.

[Chrimi]

Yeah because making it easier for scum to NK the towniest player is the greatest contribution

bzzt

But as long as you continue contributing a shitty amount, scum doesn't need to kill you because you won't be helping out.

The goal of this game isn't to live longer than the rest of town, it's to kill the scum.

VOTE: thenewearth

Yes, AF is still scum.

@Jibs: This was my response to her three or four posts in that area.

[Chrimi]

Hello Chrimi.

Could you weigh in here? I feel like you are better at reading waaay to into texts than I am. I usually consider all of that stuff pure princess bride nonsense.

By princess bride nonsense, I assume you mean Wine In Front Of Me (WIFOM)

[Jibs]

Hello Chrimi.

Could you weigh in here? I feel like you are better at reading waaay to into texts than I am. I usually consider all of that stuff pure princess bride nonsense.

By princess bride nonsense, I assume you mean Wine In Front Of Me (WIFOM)

Yes.

How sure are you here that tne is scum? I think the game will be very very hard to win if we mislynch. My feeling was that she wouldn't want to play this way as scum because it would be very hard on her scum partner and likely to get her lynched D1. Whereas I can definitely see why she would play this way as town.

[Chrimi]

Hello Chrimi.

Could you weigh in here? I feel like you are better at reading waaay to into texts than I am. I usually consider all of that stuff pure princess bride nonsense.

By princess bride nonsense, I assume you mean Wine In Front Of Me (WIFOM)

Yes.

How sure are you here that tne is scum? I think the game will be very very hard to win if we mislynch. My feeling was that she wouldn't want to play this way as scum because it would be very hard on her scum partner and likely to get her lynched D1. Whereas I can definitely see why she would play this way as town.

But see, that just becomes WIFOM too.

If she knows people will think she wouldn't play this way as scum, guess how she's going to play as scum?

[Jibs]

Alright then.

intent to hammer thenewearth

Let me know if I need to fix the formatting there.

I'm feeling very strongly that Chrimi and tne are opposite alignment now, and I will wait quite a bit before hammering (at least 24 hours, since we have lots of time). I'm fairly certain about what tne will claim, but I'm curious about whether she has a convincing argument that Chrimi is scum.