Mini Normal 1809: Game Over

[Wingback]

It mostly pisses me off that the reason town is going to lose

^That feels genuine though. I might need to skim some Elyse LYLO games.

Knock yourself out. In reverse chronological order:

• Borderlands Mafia - Serial Killer, survived and won.
  
• Anything Goes Mafia - Elyse got lynched D4.
  
• You could be anyone IV - Elyse survived alone and won.
  
• Mini 1668 - Elyse survived and won with her partner Jake From State Farm (which I'm guessing is the same delightful Robbnva that was playing this game D1).
  
• You could be anyone III - She got lynched.
  
• Micro 241 - Elyse won as scum in 6P mylo. Her partner was Mastin2.
  
• Mini 1511 - Elyse won in 5P LYLO. Her partner was aphix I believe.
  
• Mini 1505 - Elyse won in 5P LYLO. I think her partner was garmr.
  
• Newbie 1327 - Survived and won with her partner Uberninja in 5p lylo.

Reading her ISO backwards should give you a decent idea of what she can fake in LYLO.

Going over this made me realize that she can fake quite a lot of ATE as scum. In fact, she successfully fakes ATE in a good majority of her scumgames, and tends to be pretty abrasive in pushing her targets. Given she won 7/9 scumgames (maybe more if I missed any), the things you are calling genuine are completely non-alignment indicative.

That she won games in the past isn't a reason to vote her but it's a damn good reason I want this game solved here and now. So, if you are town, I need you to make that more obvious because given the gamestate, lynching Math isn't really going to win it for us. Whichever of you is town has a horrible misread and need to fix it.

For the most part, Elyse makes sense for the reasons I've listed out in all my walls today. But your fence-sitting sends off all kinds of alarms and I really need you to be as transparent as you can so I can solve this game.

[Elyse]

@kts and BB

Who would you actually be willing to vote today

[Wingback]

Great. No response like I expected. You can hang.

[Wingback]

I mean, you are not even trying to pretend you are reading Egg. You're just trying to corral votes elsewhere even after I specifically told you that I'd re-evaluate as long as I see an honest effort from you which if you're town, you'd be jumping at.

[Egg]

Wing,
1) Post 1438
2) 2 don't make a lynch in 5p. You'd still need me in that spot unless you NK'd me
3) ok. you said you had your mind made basically made up and I thought you were being honest. Guess not. But yeah, I think all town should be open to ideas in LYLO, so the fact that you consider me to be on the fence doesn't bother me any.
4) I know. It sucks but I'll do my best if that's what it comes down to. My goal is to be sure our next lynch is on scum. If we can be sure that Math is scum, I'm fine waiting a day to sort whoever is left. No lynch is still an option today or in 4p.
5) I did this in 1496.
6) Town, especially killthestory, as stated in 1496 and in killthestory's case, at daystart. I was including myself in "us".

No, I don't want your vote for Math. I want you to take firm, concrete stances on every player in the game. None of that "Math could be scum with either Elyse or Wingback" fence-sitting.

The only read that matters today from anyone is the person they vote and the person who is lynched. The only reason anyone has to know more is scum trying to decide whether to NK that person. The exception is if I'm going to be lynched otherwise or if I need to explain logic for my vote as I've done already IF I decide to vote math. The fact that you want more has me thinking you're already planning a NK if your buddy is lynched.

Thanks for the links though. That gives me so much less work and I should be able to get to that within 24 hours. Elyse, can you verify that Wing didn't miss any recent LYLO games of yours?

[Wingback]

@Egg, bottomline, you said you'd be willing to vote Elyse today based on her confidence in the Mathblade push so I want your vote there.

[Elyse]

OH MY FUCKING GOD WINGBACK

IM NOT GONNA DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT WHEN YOU WANT

I WANT TO SEE IF BB AND KTS WOULD EVEN BE WILLING TO VOTE ANYONE BESIDES ME

OTHERWISE IM NOT GONNA WASTE MY TIME

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST

[Wingback]

OH MY FUCKING GOD WINGBACK

IM NOT GONNA DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT WHEN YOU WANT

I WANT TO SEE IF BB AND KTS WOULD EVEN BE WILLING TO VOTE ANYONE BESIDES ME

OTHERWISE IM NOT GONNA WASTE MY TIME

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST

I fully intend to do everything I can to make sure you die today if you don't convince otherwise.

If you want me to rethink, you can start by addressing my points against you.

The "I won't do what you want when you want" doesn't work given you had all of yesterday to respond and you stalled.

[Wingback]

Also, the "wasting your time" argument only makes sense from a scum perspective. If you are scum, you wouldn't want to waste time arguing your lynch and just hope your partner makes it through.

If you are town, your lynch would end the game, so I'd make that a priority if I were you.

[Wingback]

I don't need you to respond to my entire walls. I just need you to talk about your read on Egg. That's all.

[Elyse]

The game is going to end regardless if BB and kts won't budge on me.

I've never been in a situation where there's someone who is universally scumread (MathBlade) and yet they aren't being lynched.

If I get lynched over him it's embarrassing.

[Wingback]

If you convince me you're town, I will put as much effort as I need to in order to talk to them and have them budge on you. And given I'm so invested in the game, I think I can pull it off.

[Egg]

@Egg, bottomline, you said you'd be willing to vote Elyse today based on her confidence in the Mathblade push so I want your vote there.

That's nice.

Elyse, can you verify what I asked at the end of my last post?

[Wingback]

I'm just going to assume you are town for a minute and list out what's bothering me about this game.

In this scenario Mathblade is scum and BBMolla is town for Mathblade's whiteknighting of him. KTS is most likely town.

From my POV, that just leaves you and Egg. One of you are scum. If we lynch Mathblade today with you two hard-townreading each other, it's pretty much a loss at 3P. My focus is not on lynching "obvscum Mathblade," it's on figuring out which of you are town with an incorrect townread and which of you are scum playing the other.

For most of this day phase, I was leaning towards that scum being you. But the way Egg was fence-sitting on his read, not committing to anything, and in general being evasive has been sending all sorts of alarms that I no longer have the confidence I had in being scum. If I'm wrong and you are actually town here, help me figure out Egg. You've been completely pushing aside that Egg-read, not even trying to read him, just ATEing TO him which is the point when I said "If we lose, this is on you." I'm trying to read both of you but neither of you are attempting to read the other which makes it a bitch to figure out which of you is the townie and which is the scum happily going along for the ride.

If I'm wrong, then show me where I'm going wrong. Asking BBMolla and KTS who they'd be willing to vote for won't win us the game because we need BOTH scum dead to win.

[Elyse]

@egg
Yes as far as I can remember those are the recent ones.

@Wing
It's insulting that you think I would go into LyLo with you and Egg and auto vote you. I'm not someone who would make a decision that quickly.

It's just mind boggling that you're not 100% sure of who's scum between me/Egg yet you're still voting one of us even though MathBlade is the partner in your mind. That's just bad play and I don't think you're a bad player. So it makes me think you're scum who's trying to push a mislynch through instead of having to bus his buddy and face LyLo alone. And again, I reallllly don't think egg is scum because he could've come in here and voted me and the game would be over. But I'll consider it because maybe he was scared to put a vote down.

Anyway let's say we lynch MathBlade today and he flips scum.

If you have kts/BB with you in 4P MyLo, what's stopping both of you from parking your votes on me? Unless you're thinking Egg would force a No Lynch?

I just don't see how you're automatically assuming it's going to be 3P LyLo with me and Egg and we're going to auto vote you. Has Egg even expressed a scumread on you?

[Wingback]

1) Post 1438

I asked you for SPECIFIC arguments that you thought Elyse made good points about. You just linked to a post of Elyse's, one that I had responded to. That doesn't answer my question. In your own words, what do you think she responded adequately to. Just give me what you remember off the top of your head.

2) 2 don't make a lynch in 5p. You'd still need me in that spot unless you NK'd me

I think you are missing something. If Math is my partner, I'd just vote no lynch and kill one BBMolla/KTS so red flags don't fly. Then when the other votes Elyse, Math and I would hammer. I don't need you in any spot to win as scum.

3) ok. you said you had your mind made basically made up and I thought you were being honest. Guess not. But yeah, I think all town should be open to ideas in LYLO, so the fact that you consider me to be on the fence doesn't bother me any.

It's the way you are being on the fence. I'm here in the game, consistently trying to garner information out of the town and making my motivations clear. The fact that you avoided the game thread for a day after you put your vote down on no lynch doesn't make your motives very clear to me. I'm also confused about your reads and your reasons for your reads. Have you re-read this game, thought about it, and re-assessed?

4) I know. It sucks but I'll do my best if that's what it comes down to. My goal is to be sure our next lynch is on scum. If we can be sure that Math is scum, I'm fine waiting a day to sort whoever is left. No lynch is still an option today or in 4p.

Well, if you are town, my best guess for scum is Elyse and that's who I want gone first.

The only read that matters today from anyone is the person they vote and the person who is lynched. The only reason anyone has to know more is scum trying to decide whether to NK that person. The exception is if I'm going to be lynched otherwise or if I need to explain logic for my vote as I've done already IF I decide to vote math. The fact that you want more has me thinking you're already planning a NK if your buddy is lynched.

Thanks for the links though. That gives me so much less work and I should be able to get to that within 24 hours. Elyse, can you verify that Wing didn't miss any recent LYLO games of yours?

Every read matters. I need to know more so I can figure out whether you are town or scum. I can't do that without you posting your reads and elaborating on them. I'm asking you for your reads not because I'm planning an NK but because I'm trying to read you.

[Wingback]

@Elyse;

re: Post 1514, I'm not sure how much more clearer I can make it.

Lynching one scum doesn't end the game. We need to lynch both. It's the same whether we mislynch now or we mislynch tomorrow. If we mislynch at all, we lose the game. There's no difference between losing the game today and losing it tomorrow. So, I have to figure out which of you or Egg are scum today.

Still strongly leaning you based on the latest response given you still haven't re-evaluated your read on Egg. Happy to lynch you and put this on you if you are somehow town here.

VOTE: Elyse

[Egg]

Wing, why can't it be Elyse/BBMolla?

Elyse, why can't it be Wing/BBMolla? Why can't it be Math/BBMolla? (Can't remember if you answered the second one)

From my POV, that just leaves you and Egg. One of you are scum. If we lynch Mathblade today with you two hard-townreading each other, it's pretty much a loss at 3P. My focus is not on lynching "obvscum Mathblade," it's on figuring out which of you are town with an incorrect townread and which of you are scum playing the other.

This arguement can wait a day. Lynching scum is more important. We don't accomplish anything by doing this now.

For most of this day phase, I was leaning towards that scum being you. But the way Egg was fence-sitting on his read, not committing to anything, and in general being evasive has been sending all sorts of alarms that I no longer have the confidence I had in being scum

Weren't you using my recently completed game Adventure mafia against me earlier? Go back to that game and read my posts from the day or two just before the final one. I didn't want to give scum too much info there either, specifically my reads on zakk and Titus if I remember correctly. But that being said, you've already pried out basically all of my reads. The only thing I haven't given is which way I'm leaning between you and Elyse.

neither of you are attempting to read the other

I have no idea where this assumption comes from but you keep repeating it like it's important or something.

Asking BBMolla and KTS who they'd be willing to vote for won't win us the game because we need BOTH scum dead to win.

If they are town we need their votes. I actually liked that reach out.

[Egg]

Holy fuck this is getting frustrating. But ok let me respond again with more details of something that doesn't matter. Let me remind you what I'm putting so much time into is why Elyse is argued better than you in one post which I don't think says anything about alignment. Give me time.

[Wingback]

Damnit Egg, I've seen how frustrating it is to get you to vote Elyse who you've been incorrectly townreading the whole game based on little more than above-average scumplay. I've outlined my reasons for why Elyse/Mathblade are the scumteam. BBMolla has pointed out why Elyse/Mathblade are the scumteam. KTS is voting Elyse. The one person who is townreading Elyse and who Elyse is buddying to is you. Based on that, why is it so hard for you to understand that I don't want you to get anywhere near LYLO? I don't trust you to vote scum. Sorry if that's offensive but this back-and-forth and reading past games of yours have convinced me that we figure this game out now or we're losing. Lynching obvscum today so you can get to LYLO isn't going to win us the game. I want us to win, not lose.

We seem to have a fundamental philosophical disagreement here. You can't just throw your hands in the air and hope that we win. We need to figure out all the answers, make a plan and implement it.

[Wingback]

Given I've calmed down a little knowing that Egg is town for sure, I'm going to take a 10 min walk and come back and outline exactly why Elyse/Mathblade are the scumteam and why they need to hang. I'll answer all your questions in-depth as long as you are willing to read.

[Wingback]

Holy fuck this is getting frustrating. But ok let me respond again with more details of something that doesn't matter. Let me remind you what I'm putting so much time into is why Elyse is argued better than you in one post which I don't think says anything about alignment. Give me time.

Given Elyse is at L-1 and you haven't hammered her, I'm quite certain that it's Elyse/Mathblade as opposed to you.

So, I don't need this.

I needed this earlier so I could read you (which makes it very much not useless) but Elyse's response was scumtastic and pretty much confirmed my suspicions enough to vote her.

[Egg]

This is a good point for the most part. While I think you certainly can get a feel for the kind of player someone is in just one game, things change over time that can affect a person's play. Even variables such as game size, playerlist, and type of game will affect play just as much if not more than a player's alignment. Bringing this up countered a big chunk of what you said in just one line. Again, does this make Elyse town? No, but it is a good way to respond to what you said.

2. The "spectacular" comment was literally because this game was deceased, dead, in the ground, and you came in and posted novels and brought it back. That's it. And if I was scum and you were town and you were getting it right, I would be pissed. I wouldn't compliment you.

This is a good point to an extent. I see where she's coming from and I absolutely see where this makes sense in context. If Elyse is scum though, maybe her team was in trouble and needed a shake up, so again, not necessarily town. Just a good arguement.

3. You say I was too receptive to your Egg scumread. Ummmmm???? I refuse to vote for him

I think this one is obvious. She showed where you were wrong (which scum can do too of course)

4. The thing is - I'm very confident Math is scum. Yesterday they mixed up their reads by saying "hiplop" (Hoopla) and I were scum together or something. I have to go back and check cause I don't remember exactly. It reeks as fake reads they couldn't keep track of. But do you think they'd fuck up how they were pretending to read their own scumbuddy? I don't. I think Math knows he fucked up and the only option left is to bus and have Math take someone down with him. (The fact that you are willing to lynch me today is ridiculous btw) I'm coming around to you as his scumbuddy because this all seems very pre planned. You asking me to switch to Math when it wouldn't happen, Math tying me to Hoopla, you doing a complete 180 and saying you're willing to lynch me today when Math basically scum slipped. It seems awfully suspicious.

States her choice for a lynch with reasoning. Everything here seems to make sense. Determining how genuine it is is another story and that's what I'd rather spend my time doing if we do end up in 3p with you, Elyse and myself like you mentioned. Stuff like this is pointless and a waste of time.

5. You say I always left Blank as a secondary scumread to Hoopla. This is correct. Me, Egg, and Grendel who is dead town all had Hoopla as our top scumread. The thing is though that once she was lynched, what was I going to do? Suddenly start scumreading someone else? Math is coming next anyway. So you can't argue me as scum for having Math as a secondary scumread because it makes sense for me to do as either alignment.

Again, self explanatory. Having more than one scum read happens for town and scum. It was pointless for you to bring it up and she did a good job of showing why whether she is town or scum.

I think you are missing something. If Math is my partner, I'd just vote no lynch and kill one BBMolla/KTS so red flags don't fly. Then when the other votes Elyse, Math and I would hammer. I don't need you in any spot to win as scum.

Your point was that you could no lynch today. That implies that someone is NK'd before we lynch anyone in your master plan.

It's the way you are being on the fence. I'm here in the game, consistently trying to garner information out of the town and making my motivations clear. The fact that you avoided the game thread for a day after you put your vote down on no lynch doesn't make your motives very clear to me. I'm also confused about your reads and your reasons for your reads. Have you re-read this game, thought about it, and re-assessed?

I "avoided" your walls yesterday and the day before because I was busy going for morning walks with my wife and son both days, visiting my grandparents, playing kickball basketball and poker, and just doing things that are more important in general. I do those things regardless of my alignment in games and when a game is wall after wall after wall or just page explosions, yeah I don't get around to reading it in the 15 or 20 minute breaks throughout the day where I'm looking at my phone. And no, I haven't re-read 60 pages. It's hard enough to keep up with the first time. I sure as hell don't hate myself enough to do it again.

Every read matters. I need to know more so I can figure out whether you are town or scum.

I'll open up either when I'm close to a lynch or when scum don't get any more NKs, whichever happens first. You've pried enough out of me already.

 There's no difference between losing the game today and losing it tomorrow. So, I have to figure out which of you or Egg are scum today.

Nah, we make the hard decisions when we have more info. if you are considering bbmolla or killthestory as scum or an egg/elyse team, fine. But if you think math is the second scum regardless, vote there.

[Elyse]

VOTE: Wingback

He just scumslipped

He said that me being at L-1 and Egg not hammering means that Egg is town

But if he was actually town he would realize that Egg and I could be scumbuddies

It has to be Wingback

[Egg]

And three posts all from Wing while I do that. Holy shit dude. I'm gonna charge my phone before I even try. Maybe even wait til late tonight because this is draining me