Shadowrun Mafia - Game Over

[Reasonably Rational]

Karnos, Scum can collect whatever benefits the mission offers. Enough to offset the same benefits gained by Town.

IME, town with a bunch of power roles is a lot stronger than sucm with extra power roles.

I recently played the "Stack the Deck" setup, which is a setup with pre-game where scum can pick extra powers, but for each power they pick town gets another PR. Scum picked exactly 0 powers, and won nicely. At the end of the game there was a bit of discussion about it, and pretty much everyone agreed that it's not worth picking anything because the risk of giving town an extra PR is much greater than the gain of an extra scum power.

Why do you think the opposite is true here?

Regardless, this whole tangent has gotten pretty far off from my original thought. I'd agree if we knew exactly who was scum, don't send them on serious missions, but historically mafiascum.net games are pretty fucking awful at finding scum on day 1. It's show less than a 50% success rate out of my past games, which means excluding "scum" from a mission today you are just as likely to be excluding a town player. It's fake strategy, something a scum suggests that might sound good but realistically can't be acted upon.

In my experience, people are quite good at identifying town, which is a very different skill from identifying scum.

That's the key here. There are generally a good number of fairly obvtown slots in the game, that establish themselves early on. Yes, sometimes scum manages to get themselves into a universally townread position, but it's FAR more likely that you'll end up with an all town composition than that you'll end up with an all town+super townread scum comp.

Within the pool of people who don't obvtown themselves though, yes, town has a very hard time identifying the scum slots.

Anyways, you're wasting time with a ridiculous position on a wholly tangential matter. Please shut up and stop. Tall about something that matters.

-Cerb

Pedit: All his posting shows is that he's misguided. There is nothing alignment indicative in any of this.

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, and I forgot to mention this, but any and all power gained by Town becomes significantly less helpful when scum know who has access to that power...which is what happens when scum go on missions.

In the scenario you were talking about, the problem was that you wouldn't know who on town would end up with these potentail threatening PRs, and possibly didn't even know what the PRs would be. Here, you know player x has these benefits, and you know to handle them appropriately.

Anyways, my point about wanting us to move on from this discussion still holds, I just had a relevant thought to share.

-Cerb

[karnos]

Oh boy! Another chance to prove karnos wrong!

1. It's better if you don't find a scum D1 because that means it was almost certainly a bus, and it really muddies the waters for later days. It's far better to build the result of D1 to give you the best D2 you can. (I know that this is counter-meta, but I've noticed that scum teams that don't go for the easy lynch, and instead go for someone who could prove troublesome later tend to win more)

2. Stack the Deck is way more town-sided in the abilities.

1: Okay you totally missed the point. If we can't catch scum day 1, what exactly makes you think we can identify scum to keep them out of mission groups? Either we can detect scum and remove them from the missions, or we can't in which case the idea of keeping scum out of the mission is a fake idea based on something we can't actually do.

Hey guys I have a great idea! Lets lynch scum today! I think if we do that, we will increase town's chance of winning! /s

2: How the hell do you know that? We don't know what the bonuses are here. You are acting like you have some inside knowledge about the game when obviously you don't. The fact that a broken combination of powers existing in a past game, IMO, makes such powers LESS likely to exist is this game. You don't re-run a broken setup, you fix it's problems and run a similar but improved setup.

I don't believe the moderators would create a broken game intentionally, as you seem to be insinuating.

[MathBlade]

Off to work I go. Catching up tonight.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Haven't caught up. Did Cerb and Drixx wish me happy birthday? That's all that matters.

[Bold Vote Scientist]

Happy Birthday ABR!

Due to the mechanics of the game, every slot must be filled by nightfall, tell your friends. After lynch, if a replacement is not found, game will proceed with locked twilight.

[Space Cowboy]

Karnos, Scum can collect whatever benefits the mission offers. Enough to offset the same benefits gained by Town.

IME, town with a bunch of power roles is a lot stronger than sucm with extra power roles.

I recently played the "Stack the Deck" setup, which is a setup with pre-game where scum can pick extra powers, but for each power they pick town gets another PR. Scum picked exactly 0 powers, and won nicely. At the end of the game there was a bit of discussion about it, and pretty much everyone agreed that it's not worth picking anything because the risk of giving town an extra PR is much greater than the gain of an extra scum power.

Why do you think the opposite is true here?

Regardless, this whole tangent has gotten pretty far off from my original thought. I'd agree if we knew exactly who was scum, don't send them on serious missions, but historically mafiascum.net games are pretty fucking awful at finding scum on day 1. It's show less than a 50% success rate out of my past games, which means excluding "scum" from a mission today you are just as likely to be excluding a town player. It's fake strategy, something a scum suggests that might sound good but realistically can't be acted upon.

In my experience, people are quite good at identifying town, which is a very different skill from identifying scum.

That's the key here. There are generally a good number of fairly obvtown slots in the game, that establish themselves early on. Yes, sometimes scum manages to get themselves into a universally townread position, but it's FAR more likely that you'll end up with an all town composition than that you'll end up with an all town+super townread scum comp.

Within the pool of people who don't obvtown themselves though, yes, town has a very hard time identifying the scum slots.

Anyways, you're wasting time with a ridiculous position on a wholly tangential matter. Please shut up and stop. Tall about something that matters.

-Cerb

Pedit: All his posting shows is that he's misguided. There is nothing alignment indicative in any of this.

Cerb, the thing is, his posts are so misguided that there is no

conceivable

way that someone could be this dense/misguided. He is saying things that anyone with any sort of game experience would know aren't true. He's evidently got

some

experience, so he has to know they aren't true, ergo he must be trying to misguide others.

I refuse to believe that someone could be that wrong. It's a ridiculous premise.

Oh boy! Another chance to prove karnos wrong!

1. It's better if you don't find a scum D1 because that means it was almost certainly a bus, and it really muddies the waters for later days. It's far better to build the result of D1 to give you the best D2 you can. (I know that this is counter-meta, but I've noticed that scum teams that don't go for the easy lynch, and instead go for someone who could prove troublesome later tend to win more)

2. Stack the Deck is way more town-sided in the abilities.

1: Okay you totally missed the point. If we can't catch scum day 1, what exactly makes you think we can identify scum to keep them out of mission groups? Either we can detect scum and remove them from the missions, or we can't in which case the idea of keeping scum out of the mission is a fake idea based on something we can't actually do.

Hey guys I have a great idea! Lets lynch scum today! I think if we do that, we will increase town's chance of winning! /s

2: How the hell do you know that? We don't know what the bonuses are here. You are acting like you have some inside knowledge about the game when obviously you don't. The fact that a broken combination of powers existing in a past game, IMO, makes such powers LESS likely to exist is this game. You don't re-run a broken setup, you fix it's problems and run a similar but improved setup.

I don't believe the moderators would create a broken game intentionally, as you seem to be insinuating.

As Cerb said, it's not "let's identify scum to keep them out". It's "let's identify town to put in".

Additionally, people don't make broken setups on purpose. There are oversights made that slip under the radar consistently. For instance, in SaGa, there was a serial killer that was immune to kills, and had to simply treestump (or really just have them out of the game) anyone with a killing role. He underestimated just how powerful that role was, and how easy it would be for them to win (not to say that you didn't do great that game, Cerb. You just had a way more powerful role than any other faction. I was the only killing role that you couldn't affect)

[Space Cowboy]

Additionally, the "broken combination" was very difficult to get. Even if I was universally town-read, I would still have had to go on an adventure 3-4 times!

It's possible to balance out powerful combinations (not broken) by making them require an extensively large amount of effort to get.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Happy Birthday ABR!

Thank you!!!

[Yume]

@Cerberus And how do you plan to organize all-town mission party.

[PeregrineV]

Prod dodge, basically. Will catch up tonight/tomorrow.

[karnos]

Cerb, the thing is, his posts are so misguided that there is no

conceivable

way that someone could be this dense/misguided. He is saying things that anyone with any sort of game experience would know aren't true. He's evidently got

some

experience, so he has to know they aren't true, ergo he must be trying to misguide others.

I refuse to believe that someone could be that wrong. It's a ridiculous premise.

Okay, specifics please. You can't make a claim like that without backing it up with some examples.

Here is this will proceed: you quote the exact statement I made that "anyone with any sort of game experience would know aren't true". Then I will show you an example from another game where a town player said essentially the same thing, and then we will proceed to lynch you, because you are obvious scum going for what you think is an easy town lynch.

All of your specific examples of why I am "obviously wrong" are based around your experience in a couple specific games. Not general mafia/werewolf games at all.

Additionally, the "broken combination" was very difficult to get. Even if I was universally town-read, I would still have had to go on an adventure 3-4 times!

It's possible to balance out powerful combinations (not broken) by making them require an extensively large amount of effort to get.

Look at this backpedaling. Earlier you were making it sound like we were doomed forever if a single scum got into a mission. Now you seem to be saying it's not really a big deal, it's only dangerous if scum get to run on 3-4 missions. I think you realized you overplayed your hand, said pretty obvious BS in your eagerness to get me lynched, and now are moving the goalposts.

[WorldzMine]

Scum FB is more careful of how he speaks

.

Like exact word for words what said as scum.
And Shiro was 100% making it up.

Somehow I bought it.

~Fire

VOTE: Vote Grovyle

I just don't like his tone so far combined with the attempted mod meta read earlier.

This is weird...I don't like this vote from Worldzmine. You made a point of showing how that push wasn't scum oriented but Worldz votes Grovyle without touching/interacting with your post. It's probably this that makes Grovyle likely town.

Naw, his tone is just very adversarial so far imo. I don't have any meta on him (or anyone) so just going with a rather weak read this early in the game. I also disagree that such a push might not be scum oriented. This game seems very slow to me so far so just going with the weakest of reads at this point, most likely to change as I see and get involved with more interactions over time.

[Reasonably Rational]

Haven't caught up. Did Cerb and Drixx wish me happy birthday? That's all that matters.

Ilu ABR and totally meant to but didn't yet so Happy Birthday! Even though the value of it has been diminished by the fact that you specifically called us out for not doing so already, I do mean it sincerely and wish you the best for your entire birthday year!

Yume: I can't? It's up to JarReed, but it's a matter of him identifying the most town slots in the game. It's difficult to do so when the game is, thus far, mostly setup speculation though. we need to move past all this.

For the record, even the broken combination DS is talking about had counters, in the form of a strongman kill available via long adventure paths, and a passive power neutralizer available via short adventure paths.

His caution is reasonable, but his example isn't nearly as catastrophic as he makes it sound.

Also, DS, I only used my power twice in that game, and technically I had to remove far more specific slots from the game than town did in order to win. Your point is taken though, the role was awesome.

Yume, is there anyone you're town reading at this point, and do you have any reason for those reads?

-Cerb

[Space Cowboy]

Cerb, the thing is, his posts are so misguided that there is no

conceivable

way that someone could be this dense/misguided. He is saying things that anyone with any sort of game experience would know aren't true. He's evidently got

some

experience, so he has to know they aren't true, ergo he must be trying to misguide others.

I refuse to believe that someone could be that wrong. It's a ridiculous premise.

Okay, specifics please. You can't make a claim like that without backing it up with some examples.

Here is this will proceed: you quote the exact statement I made that "anyone with any sort of game experience would know aren't true". Then I will show you an example from another game where a town player said essentially the same thing, and then we will proceed to lynch you, because you are obvious scum going for what you think is an easy town lynch.

All of your specific examples of why I am "obviously wrong" are based around your experience in a couple specific games. Not general mafia/werewolf games at all.

Additionally, the "broken combination" was very difficult to get. Even if I was universally town-read, I would still have had to go on an adventure 3-4 times!

It's possible to balance out powerful combinations (not broken) by making them require an extensively large amount of effort to get.

Look at this backpedaling. Earlier you were making it sound like we were doomed forever if a single scum got into a mission. Now you seem to be saying it's not really a big deal, it's only dangerous if scum get to run on 3-4 missions. I think you realized you overplayed your hand, said pretty obvious BS in your eagerness to get me lynched, and now are moving the goalposts.

I'm not backpedaling. I'm simply speaking how it is. Yes, letting scum into missions is bad for a variety of reasons. Yes, it could potentially doom the town (although it's not likely). And yes, the game probably isn't unbalanced enough for one single mission to absolutely doom the town (key word probably).

You're pushing really really hard for my lynch because you don't agree with my mechanics analysis... I have been on the receiving end of some pretty shitty pushes, but this takes the cake.

PEdit: I was immune to the passive neutralizer (because I was ascetic and lynchproof). Just so you know. The strongman was the only counter to my combination.

[Space Cowboy]

Haven't caught up. Did Cerb and Drixx wish me happy birthday? That's all that matters.

Ilu ABR and totally meant to but didn't yet so Happy Birthday! Even though the value of it has been diminished by the fact that you specifically called us out for not doing so already, I do mean it sincerely and wish you the best for your entire birthday year!

Yume: I can't? It's up to JarReed, but it's a matter of him identifying the most town slots in the game. It's difficult to do so when the game is, thus far, mostly setup speculation though. we need to move past all this.

For the record, even the broken combination DS is talking about had counters, in the form of a strongman kill available via long adventure paths, and a passive power neutralizer available via short adventure paths.

His caution is reasonable, but his example isn't nearly as catastrophic as he makes it sound.

Also, DS, I only used my power twice in that game, and technically I had to remove far more specific slots from the game than town did in order to win. Your point is taken though, the role was awesome.

Yume, is there anyone you're town reading at this point, and do you have any reason for those reads?

-Cerb

I will say, though, both of the SK roles were really amazing.

Too bad I was lynchproof and not bulletproof... I'm much better at avoiding getting lynched (I've only been lynched twice, and one was literally the worst town I've ever seen in a Fire and Ice game)

[Yume]

@Cerb No, I am townreading no one and scumreading no one. It's hard to do on day 1, like you said.

[karnos]

You're pushing really really hard for my lynch because you don't agree with my mechanics analysis...

Actually, I was already voting you before all of this discussion took place, for other reasons.

[Reasonably Rational]

D&D, why have you disappeared? Please come back and say things so I can decide if I should sheep ABR.

Individuals with default acess to PTs, that is, Yume, PV, ABR in the Astral, and Random, Detective Moonlight, and whoever ends up taking over the Nahdia slot in the Matrix...thoughts on one another?

Everyone, thoughts on likelihood of scum within those separate groupings?

-Cerb

[Space Cowboy]

I'd say it's safe to assume there's a scum in both groups.

[Yume]

D&D, why have you disappeared? Please come back and say things so I can decide if I should sheep ABR.

Individuals with default acess to PTs, that is, Yume, PV, ABR in the Astral, and Random, Detective Moonlight, and whoever ends up taking over the Nahdia slot in the Matrix...thoughts on one another?

Everyone, thoughts on likelihood of scum within those separate groupings?

-Cerb

We in Astral PT aren't talking there at all.

[Space Cowboy]

I'd assume so. ABR is V/LA for his B-Day, and PV compulsively lurks.

I doubt they are talking much in the Matrix. DM and Random haven't posted for over a day.

[Koggz]

Cerb, the thing is, his posts are so misguided that there is no

conceivable

way that someone could be this dense/misguided. He is saying things that anyone with any sort of game experience would know aren't true. He's evidently got

some

experience, so he has to know they aren't true, ergo he must be trying to misguide others.

I refuse to believe that someone could be that wrong. It's a ridiculous premise.

Okay, specifics please. You can't make a claim like that without backing it up with some examples.

Here is this will proceed: you quote the exact statement I made that "anyone with any sort of game experience would know aren't true". Then I will show you an example from another game where a town player said essentially the same thing, and then we will proceed to lynch you, because you are obvious scum going for what you think is an easy town lynch.

All of your specific examples of why I am "obviously wrong" are based around your experience in a couple specific games. Not general mafia/werewolf games at all.

Additionally, the "broken combination" was very difficult to get. Even if I was universally town-read, I would still have had to go on an adventure 3-4 times!

It's possible to balance out powerful combinations (not broken) by making them require an extensively large amount of effort to get.

Look at this backpedaling. Earlier you were making it sound like we were doomed forever if a single scum got into a mission. Now you seem to be saying it's not really a big deal, it's only dangerous if scum get to run on 3-4 missions. I think you realized you overplayed your hand, said pretty obvious BS in your eagerness to get me lynched, and now are moving the goalposts.

I'm not backpedaling. I'm simply speaking how it is. Yes, letting scum into missions is bad for a variety of reasons. Yes, it could potentially doom the town (although it's not likely). And yes, the game probably isn't unbalanced enough for one single mission to absolutely doom the town (key word probably).

You're pushing really really hard for my lynch because you don't agree with my mechanics analysis... I have been on the receiving end of some pretty shitty pushes, but this takes the cake.

PEdit: I was immune to the passive neutralizer (because I was ascetic and lynchproof). Just so you know. The strongman was the only counter to my combination.

VOTE: space cowboy

[Reasonably Rational]

Koggz, use your words please.

-Cerb

[Randomnamechange]

Prodge, will read game/rules