Newbie 1726 (Game Over)

[Zorblag]

@innocentvillager, trusting Nachomamma8 might or might not be the motivation for my last post. In any case, as I said, I'll explain it when we're talking about the game which will either be today or after one more scum kill.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Jaack]

I endorse no lynching and I also endorse not discussing anything else until a decision is made either way.

[innocentvillager]

VOTE: no lynch

[Nachomamma8]

I don't want to no lynch today. It's a possibility and a fine one, but I think the possibility of losing a town voice is more harmful overall than losing a suspect will be helpful at this point in time. If others disagree, then I'm willing to go with the flow; my thoughts aren't overwhelming enough where I would complain too much if the voice of the people says something different.

[Zorblag]

Right, so given that I would rather not no lynch as well. Unless everyone else wants to no lynch we should proceed with the day as normal. If the rest of the game does prefer a no lynch then they should go ahead and vote for it (which would be the 4 needed votes,) but if anyone else prefers a normal day we'll start when they say it.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Right, so just in case that wasn't clear, this is the exciting bit where Foxbird, Jaack and RachMarie come and either vote no lynch like innocent villager has done or say they'd like to play today as normal. If you're about you should be able to do one of those two fairly quickly. If you have any questions about the theory I can answer them (or any of the more experienced players could.) Let's try to get this done.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Jaack]

I would vote no lynch, but I was under the assumption it was 3 votes to no lynch.

If foxbird and rach want to no lynch, then I'll vote.

That being said I'm not overly opposed to playing today out.

[innocentvillager]

Given that I have no strong town reads I would strongly like to no lynch and get another townie killed.

[Zorblag]

@Jaack, by the rules it takes a majority voting no lynch for the early no lynch. If you prefer the no lynch there's no reason not to vote for it now.

@RachMarie, I'd really like it if you'd come weigh in on this. You're on site a lot and should be able to pop in to this thread and either vote no lynch or say you'd like to play as normal this day.

I should not be having to push people to get done with this part of the game. Let's move people so we can get on to whatever the next part of the game will be.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[RachMarie]

sorry been dealing with issues with business card from PP and trying to get work done

TBH I could go either way with a NL or try to win this game by lynching scum. I can see value in both approaches,

The NL one is a bit less risky and could provide us more info.
On the other hand we will lose one more of our townies if we NL and there is a bit of appeal for going for broke.

I will go with what Nacho and Troll do basically because right now Im just swamped with this report I have to finish

[Zorblag]

OK, I'm calling that good enough. We're playing this day as normal.

Here's a place to start the discussion.

innocentvillager is correct; I've decided that Nachomamma8 is town. What he did at the end of the day yesterday was totally unnecessary as scum and should have hurt his position a little. He actively got in and led us to a mislynch when he could easily have sat back and let the RachMarie lynch happen. Given my experience with the game I've got every reason to believe that he's not a partner with RachMarie; I've never seen a scum team play this way towards eachother, but even if I was willing to believe that they were being super buddy buddy as scum partners, Nachomamma8 let the RachMarie suspicion go long enough that a lynch should have happened before he stepped in (ecane should have voted to lynch RachMarie yesterday given that the claim had already happened.) Since I don't think it's at all likely that RachMarie and Nachomamma8 are scum together that either means that Nachomamma8 as scum decided to put part of his reputation on the line to shift a vote from one town player to another when he would have been just fine otherwise, or he's town and was trying to prevent what he thought was going to be a mislynch. The second is so much more likely that it's not even a contest in my mind.

Reinforcing that is Nachomamma8's scum play in Newbie Game 1723. That's what a scum game should look like. Although some early posts here look similar he rode a low impact game to victory and never stepped in to make a change like he did here. There are a couple other differences I could point out between the two, but the big thing here is that I have a reason to believe that Nachomamma8, as scum, should play like I expect good scum to play. As of the end of the day yesterday we no longer have that.

As far as not being so sure about innocentvillager at this point, I'll let Nachomamma8 answer questions for himself as he'd like, but obviously, after a couple flips and no scum every town player should reassess their reads. If you're not trying to look at things with the new information we have in mind then you're doing things wrong.

@innocentvillager, if you're town you've been playing a game that attempts to keep scum in the dark as much as possible as to the true state of your beliefs. That was true for ecane in your entrance day one, it's true for how you reacted to ecane's PR claim, even up to using your vote for it at the end of the day. I suspect that was true for why you made yourstatement about foedufafa, though that ended up being an awful move in the long run. I strongly believe that you need to stop that at this point in the game though. I can't tell whether your post about Nachomamma8 is serious or not as it would fit with that pattern, but there are no power roles to protect at this time and actually hitting scum based on what everyone actually thinks about the other players needs to be town's priority now.

If you were so convinced that the mod had slipped and cleared foedufafa why not push that more?

I'll have to get to more things later as I've got things outside of mafia I need to get to, but we need everyone here taking part in the game today. If you're town then please, be here and help us get this right.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Nachomamma8]

I think he's town. This game would've been waaay more dead if he wasn't in it and I honestly think he wouldn't post as much and put in all this effort if he was scum. Also if I take into account that Inno is scum, I don't see them being a team. I know about his reputation, but if he is actually scum in this game then kudos to him. I'm just not seeing it right now. Seems kind of out of the blue question, any reason behind it?

This post implies pretty strongly that she probably protected Zorblag from the kill Night 1; the most likely result of No Lynching at this point in time that I can see is probably scumteams killing Zorblag. If Zorblag is scum, one odd kill would not be enough to catch him, especially when he'd have the opportunity to shoot the player likeliest to vote him.

[Nachomamma8]

Foxbird, talk to me about why you wanted to lynch, please.

[Nachomamma8]

Innocentvillager, when did you realize that ecane made the PR slip? Did you realize it when you voted her?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't have an incredibly large chunk of time right this second but I agree with Zorblag that it is of the utmost importance that we all bring our aggressive games today; I'll be working on asking everyone questions and rereading and getting a solid view of the gamestate and I'm hoping that everyone else does the same.

[Nachomamma8]

Let's extend the question to alexs, ecane, and Gratuitous, too - this game is really quiet and tame so far. Get in here, guys!

Why didn't you do anything in order to get the game moving earlier?
I understand that maybe you don't know how to get a game started alone, but you've played a few games before, you know how things work a bit. Asking people "how much mafia have you played" doesn't really like the type of thing to take the game places, does it?

What do you think about the fact that Nacho popped in but did not lay down a vote not even an RVS one?

I don't like it at all, to be honest. Most ICs I've seen at least copypaste some sort of introduction in their first post, and the RVS vote should be a given, especially considering how slow the game was going. As far as I've seen Nacho also posted in another newbie game, but not here.

Nne of that is inherently indicative of scum, though, aside from maaaybe the lurking. We'll have to see how the situation develops.

You went "I don't like it at all", which sounds like a strong opinion of some sort - was there something that I wasn't doing that you thought I should have in order to help the game state?

I didn't find it scummy without context and in my last newbie game I caught flak for putting pressure on a player who hadn't posted yet, and I didn't want a repeat of that because it wasted Town's time then, in my opinion.

This is sort of weird; you were afraid of wasting the Town's time when nothing was happening? Even if the overall exchange ended up not being fruitful, it got

something

going and if you were a little afraid of me lurking it out as scum (which seemed to be a fear of yours at the time considering you looked up my activity elsewhere), why not push on it at least a little bit?

[Foxbird]

I FOUND TIME TO WRITE AN ACTUAL POST

Spoiler: Foxbird Q&A (long)

Foxbird, talk to me about why you wanted to lynch, please.

I'm not sure I want to lynch, and I don't think I said that? I haven't made up my mind yet. If we mislynch, we lose, but now that the JK is dead and the BP is outed (and not CCed), chances are high that we'll lose another townie overnight. I guess the question is whether that one night kill will give us enough info to lynch correctly afterwards, and about that I am not sure. I am leaning more towards lynching today, to be honest, since I can't think of a single townflip that would give me super solid scumreads and not just make us clueless tomorrow.

Let's extend the question to alexs, ecane, and Gratuitous, too - this game is really quiet and tame so far. Get in here, guys!

Why didn't you do anything in order to get the game moving earlier?
I understand that maybe you don't know how to get a game started alone, but you've played a few games before, you know how things work a bit. Asking people "how much mafia have you played" doesn't really like the type of thing to take the game places, does it?

What do you think about the fact that Nacho popped in but did not lay down a vote not even an RVS one?

I don't like it at all, to be honest. Most ICs I've seen at least copypaste some sort of introduction in their first post, and the RVS vote should be a given, especially considering how slow the game was going. As far as I've seen Nacho also posted in another newbie game, but not here.

Nne of that is inherently indicative of scum, though, aside from maaaybe the lurking. We'll have to see how the situation develops.

You went "I don't like it at all", which sounds like a strong opinion of some sort - was there something that I wasn't doing that you thought I should have in order to help the game state?

I didn't find it scummy without context and in my last newbie game I caught flak for putting pressure on a player who hadn't posted yet, and I didn't want a repeat of that because it wasted Town's time then, in my opinion.

This is sort of weird; you were afraid of wasting the Town's time when nothing was happening? Even if the overall exchange ended up not being fruitful, it got

something

going and if you were a little afraid of me lurking it out as scum (which seemed to be a fear of yours at the time considering you looked up my activity elsewhere), why not push on it at least a little bit?

These posts are rather old so I'm not sure I remember every single thought process I had at the time, but I'll try my best to answer your questions.

1) Earlier? That post is post 20. I'm not sure how much earlier you are talking about. And I had only one completed game onsite at that point, which was a Large with very different mechanics (Summer Waltz), where I flailed to do anything substantial. Granted, my reads were pretty accurate, but they were based on reading the entire game, ISOing lots of people, and my gut. I'm not a great scumhunter, I'm probably not even a good one. So, yeah, I don't really know how to get a game started. My best attempt was 18 where I found a question to ask.

2) I've read a couple newbie games where the ICs came into the game with a big wall post containing info about the game. Also, every single one of those games had the IC throw down an RVS vote (and an explanation as to what an RVS vote is). Both of those things were missing in this case. But as I said in the post itself, that's not a scumtell. It was something to look out for if you kept prodging without giving game input, but you eventually came around and participated.

3) I don't see the value in pushing someone who isn't actually around, and to be honest, I just wanted to stop a repeat from my last newbie game. I absolutely hate getting into baseless fights, and in fact, this game was the first one I signed up to after taking a hiatus because my anxiety disorder forced me to replace out of the aforementioned newbie game (1713, if I remember correctly, modded by TTH). Now-me would have pushed it, then-me was too worried about her health to start a push on the most experienced player in the game.

tl;dr: I'm a non-aggressive, anxious person who's not very good at Mafia. I'm working on it.

_ _ _

Has anyone found a crumb as to who ecane jailed N1? I didn't find one when I went to look.
I have some vague ideas but I'm not sure if I should talk about them before we decided whether we lynch or not.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't like Jaack's misrep of my doubtcasting on Nacho at all. He either didn't read what I said right, or he didn't want to. This discussion about Caston and me is just silly. And he's talking a lot about me - not delta, which is where his vote is. What's up with that? Only redeeming thing is that I don't like delta's posting, either.

So, a couple questions about this:

First of all, why the delayed reaction? Jaack started talking about how he didn't like your post to me on the page before, but you didn't really seem bothered by it then; why was him explaining the read to me after I asked him about it the final straw?

Second of all, why was this something that bothered you in the first place? Your early posts seem like you're frustrated at the lack of anything going on, Jaack is the first person to get things moving and your first reaction is less "hey, someone got things moving" and more "this is scummy and silly, yuck". I mean I understand that this is probably a weird point because he did something you disliked so you pushed it is a very simple and acceptable answer but can you kind of understand what I'm driving at here?

[Nachomamma8]

Has anyone found a crumb as to who ecane jailed N1? I didn't find one when I went to look.
I have some vague ideas but I'm not sure if I should talk about them before we decided whether we lynch or not.

Probably Zorblag. Ecane didn't claim it meaning that they probably didn't jail someone they thought was scum and Ecane appreciated Zorblag's activity and pushing the game forward more than they appreciated anyone else's play from what I could tell.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not sure I want to lynch, and I don't think I said that? I haven't made up my mind yet. If we mislynch, we lose, but now that the JK is dead and the BP is outed (and not CCed), chances are high that we'll lose another townie overnight. I guess the question is whether that one night kill will give us enough info to lynch correctly afterwards, and about that I am not sure. I am leaning more towards lynching today, to be honest, since I can't think of a single townflip that would give me super solid scumreads and not just make us clueless tomorrow.

I apparently just dreamed a post where you decided you want to go along with No Lynch. Sorry about that!

1) Earlier? That post is post 20. I'm not sure how much earlier you are talking about. And I had only one completed game onsite at that point, which was a Large with very different mechanics (Summer Waltz), where I flailed to do anything substantial. Granted, my reads were pretty accurate, but they were based on reading the entire game, ISOing lots of people, and my gut. I'm not a great scumhunter, I'm probably not even a good one. So, yeah, I don't really know how to get a game started. My best attempt was 18 where I found a question to ask.

I'll check out Summer Waltz later when I have the time; in the meantime, are there any differences between the two games that you are aware of and would like to explain before I see them for myself (or miss them entirely)?

Fair enough to the rest of it.

2) I've read a couple newbie games where the ICs came into the game with a big wall post containing info about the game. Also, every single one of those games had the IC throw down an RVS vote (and an explanation as to what an RVS vote is). Both of those things were missing in this case. But as I said in the post itself, that's not a scumtell. It was something to look out for if you kept prodging without giving game input, but you eventually came around and participated.

I'm just trying to figure out what you "didn't like" about my entrance - did you dislike that I didn't post a big wall and put down an RVS vote? Did you think that I stalled the game by failing to do either of those things?

[Nachomamma8]

Oh and something that I thought I typed up but apparently didn't is that I don't mind if you push on me or suspect me for any reason; the only way that I'm pushing to get you to talk right now is because you're a player that I haven't focused on a lot this game and not a player that I have any familiarity with in general; it's all for the spirit of figuring out the game and if at any point I cross the line or come close to toeing it then let me know and I won't let it happen again (although I hope it never comes to that!).

[Nachomamma8]

I was also factoring in my own mistake with not seeing where his vote was (I thought it was on delta, but it was on Caston, essentially nullifying half my case).
But yeah I definitely think misrepresenting someone like that is a scummy tactic. Doesn't matter that it was me, could have been anyone.

However, I did make a mistake with thinking his vote was on delta and I like his response to this whole discussion with me, so I'm gonna UNVOTE: Jaack.

I thought that Jaack's perception of your comment on me was a much more significant part of your case against him than the "voting delta but talking about other people one"; was I mistaken? Why would Jaack voting delta but talking more about other people be suspicious (as in why would he do it as scum)?

Delta: Nothing much has changed since my last assessment, though I'm pretty sure he's quit effectively now. I still think that the slot itself is scummy because he basically crumbled as soon as people started to suspect him, which I feel is more of a scum thing to do. There was no flailing, no explanation, just 'I quit'. If he flips scum, I'd suspect scum in ecane/Gratuitous because they were the once that questioned him. Being criticised by the person who officially is your "buddy" can be hard on newbscum, imo. Scumreading until/unless a replacement does a lot better.

This is an interesting take. Do you still stand behind what you said here?
Crumbling when people suspect you is what seemed to happen to Charloux in that newbie game you played a while back, but I'm not sure that it's typical of scum play in general; I'd imagine it's more likely that he decided that the game wasn't for him (which is what a newbie game is all about, after all).

Jaack: I'm super unsure on this one. I thought our squabbles were TvT and I liked that he put an end to our pointless arguing. Scum would have wanted to inflate their post count, I think, since arguing looks like scumhunting. But then later he goes to voting me after Zorblag, who he is still leaning scum on, and never responds to me pointing that out. He also conveniently neglects to say that his vote puts me at L-2. Flickering between null and scum.

You thought that your squabbles were TvT? When did you start feeling that a little more strongly? In your last comment on him, it seemed that you were more null-reading him then townreading him.

[Nachomamma8]

RachMarie: She's been discussed by several people already. I honestly think most of her behaviour is NAI and/or a playstyle thing since I'm having trouble with the same things she is. However, I don't like that her reads seem to be heavily based on meta/personal experience instead of pointing out specific posts etc. in this specific game. Null overall.

Your original thought on Rach's play was that it was mostly playstyle; when did you start deciding differently here (I seem to remember you being a fairly significant Rach pusher and if that is not the case then infinite apologies for you)?

[innocentvillager]

Uggh I really want an NL.

I don't think Nacho is so town that potentially losing him would be that detrimental (no offense, Nacho).

Also, if Nacho really is BP, he'll survive the night anyway.

I really think we should no lynch.

It'll decrease our lynch pool. Nachomamma can give his thoughts today, then if he dies, we use his input from the previous day. And there's no diagonal PR anymore to help us with new information.

[Nachomamma8]

Right now, there are three people against a no lynch (me, Zorblag, Foxbird) and Rach who said she would follow Zorblag and I's lead, which means that no lynch isn't happening today. As a result, go ahead and continue for a no lynch and maybe you'll change minds but it's a high priority for you to start contributing to the game and pushing now so we have a more productive day than we did yesterday or Day 1.