Newbie 1726 (Game Over)

[Zorblag]

@Nachomamma8, I'm assuming that all the arguments about RachMarie being town still hold from yesterday, but as I'm too tired to look to see if you've actually answered this already, what do you think she'd be doing differently if she was scum? How would she play off the suspicion? Would she do something other than resign to being lynched? It's bad play regardless of alignment so there should be other options. Why does it have to be appeal to emotion rather than just scum accepting that they're going to be lynched (as opposed to town accepting that they're going to be lynched?)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Jaack]

Have a few minutes to catchup

Did you get the chance to glance at the exchange that I've had with Foxbird so far? What did you like about her responses/what did you dislike about them?

The one thing that popped out was once again Foxbird tried to back out of her D1 micro push on you that I took issue with earlier. I don't like how she's tried a few times to deflect interest in that post.

Don't have time for much more, will add more later tonight.

[Zaicon]

Vote Count 3.1

No Lynch (1):

innocentvillager

No Vote (5):

Foxbird, Jaack, Nachomamma8, RachMarie, Zorblag

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch!

Deadline is Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 4:00 PM CST, which is in (expired on 2016-08-30 16:00:00).

[innocentvillager]

@Zorb how does Fox/Jaack team look.

Jaack was weirdly engaged with Fox, almost as a distancing attempt. He even voted her early, but lifted pressure when no one really pursued.

Both of them read null-lean town to me and tbh a lot of why I townread Fox and Jaack were stupid things like "proactivity in early game", or like "stuff that i agreed with", etc.

[innocentvillager]

Would like others to engage me on this as well if you are alive out there..

[Zorblag]

@innocentvillager, that early vote was a bit of a weird one, but I don't think that it reads Jaack and Foxbird as a scum team to me. I think that the sequence went something like foedufafa's slot had a RVS vote on them, I came in and placed a vote, Jaack followed my lead, I dropped my vote for RachMarie who then responded by adding hers directly afterwords and then Jaack switched his vote to me.

It feels early for a bus and the change in pressure when I moved my vote (which is a big part of Jaack's given reason,) doesn't feel like what scum would do when dealing with a scum partner he'd be worried was going to get lynched; I'd expect them to stay on a partner longer than that given that RachMarie had put some focus back. He has consistently listed Foxbird on the top of his suspect lists, but I like his interactions with RachMarie much less (which I've mentioned a couple times, and that particular case would be a chainsaw if they were the scum team.)

So on the whole, while it's possible, it's not what I'd expect from scum partners at that stage in the game. If that's what was going on then the whole vote wasn't a bus but I'd have to look at Foxbird more in depth and see what she's saying about Jaack. Mostly I don't recall minding it though.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Yeah, looking at Foxbird, I don't really think it's coming from a scum partner for Jaack from that side either. The first serious vote was a vote for Jaack that gets walked back really quickly. The way it goes down speaks insecure about reads and status in the game, or scum nervous that their reason isn't seen as real enough, but I don't think it's scum poking a vote for distancing and then backing off like that. She stays on Jaack as a suspect pretty consistently beyond that (so they both have that going for them,) but although I find some of the reasons hard to understand (overly concerned about voting with one's scum suspect,) she's applying those to others as well (at least to me.) Jaack hasn't ever been a serious target of much suspicion, so it's hard to say how she'd act if he was; if anyone was trying to drum up the Jaack suspicion it was her (though there's no driving of the game, so that isn't what we've got from her.)

Could they be the scum team, yeah, it's possible. It doesn't feel that likely to me right now though. It's certainly not where I'd start trying to build any cases. Should one of them flip scum I'm willing to come back and look again, but as of now it's not on my radar as a major concern/possibility.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[innocentvillager]

That implies you think one of me/Rach is scum. Which one is scum?

[innocentvillager]

That's an interesting observation, I guess I'll have to look a little deeper then.

What happened to everyone in this game lol

[Foxbird]

That's an interesting observation, I guess I'll have to look a little deeper then.

What happened to everyone in this game lol

That's a good question. I was preoccupied with other games that were closer to deadline. Other than that, I have a hard time finding something to talk about

[innocentvillager]

@Fox

your read on me and Zorb and why?

Feel free to skim our wall wars btw, you don't have to read them in detail if you don't want to bc honestly it's just us misrepping each other and getting annoyed.

[Foxbird]

@Fox

your read on me and Zorb and why?

Feel free to skim our wall wars btw, you don't have to read them in detail if you don't want to bc honestly it's just us misrepping each other and getting annoyed.

tl;dr I think Zorb is town, you might be scum. As far as I'm concerned, if either of you flip scum, I highly doubt that the other is the partner.

Zorb is going above and beyond to explain things and go in-depth on details, which I still think is unnecessary as scum. He keeps engaging everyone and generally is healthy for the game, save for those wallfights.

Your last-minute push on ecane D2 was scummy. Trying to start a late wagon on a player that had softed a PR makes no sense. You were clearly aware of that softclaim based on how you spoke at the beginning of this day, yet you tried to lynch her?

[Zorblag]

@Foxbird, I don't have much time just now, but the only reason that the ecane vote from innocentvillager would be scummy would be that it made someone he thought was town (foedufafa) more likely to be lynched. If he was town then using that vote to cast doubt on ecane's obv. town to everyone on in case scum hadn't caught the PR claim is fine in a vaccum. I suspect that Nachomamma8 was doing the same thing with his suspicion towards the end of the game. There was no danger of a lynch, but there was a small chance it would move scum to another lynch.

Had you caught the PR claim when it was made?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Foxbird]

@Foxbird, I don't have much time just now, but the only reason that the ecane vote from innocentvillager would be scummy would be that it made someone he thought was town (foedufafa) more likely to be lynched. If he was town then using that vote to cast doubt on ecane's obv. town to everyone on in case scum hadn't caught the PR claim is fine in a vaccum. I suspect that Nachomamma8 was doing the same thing with his suspicion towards the end of the game. There was no danger of a lynch, but there was a small chance it would move scum to another lynch.

Had you caught the PR claim when it was made?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I guess that's a possible explanation, but I think you should have let him answer that himself.

As for the claim, yeah, I found it hard to miss. To be fair, her saying that there can be no cop could have meant she was the JK, the Tracker, or the BP. I did not want to draw attention to it on the offchance that scum hadn't seen it (which happened in my last newbie game). I was hoping she was the BP, because then drawing that attention to herself would have meant another no-kill night. Sadly, that was not the case.

Do you think that vote was null then, or even pro-town?

[Nachomamma8]

Rach, is there a reason why you're so quiet today?

[RachMarie]

Im here kinda .

What did you need?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't need anything in particular, was just hoping there would be more from you on my return - am really hoping that I didn't derail a scum lynch to lynch town yesterday.

[RachMarie]

no not all just a lot going on Work stuff personal stuff and juggling some games I have not forgotten this one by any means.

Kind of still feel really suspicious about Inno being so adamant about the NL

Feel like I must be misreading Jaack or Foxbird

You and Troll still are my top town reads

Want to do a side by side ISO (a new trick I learned recently) of Jaack with Inno and Foxbird with Inno, but just have not yet done it
My mind is on client work and getting this report DONE. Plus my coaching call was today.

[Nachomamma8]

Kind of still feel really suspicious about Inno being so adamant about the NL

Why is being adamant about an NL suspicious?

[Nachomamma8]

no not all just a lot going on Work stuff personal stuff and juggling some games I have not forgotten this one by any means.

My worry is less forgetting and more neglecting... been hoping you would push a bit harder towards gamesolving today if you got the chance.

[RachMarie]

I will just let me get my report done we do have time

Im hoping to have it done by tomorrow and it is really behind as it is

[innocentvillager]

not as great as i felt about him yesterday

I really hate this post, and I'll explain why.

How am I suddenly higher on your shit list from last night to now?? What the fuck happened?

First of all, ecane dying was obvious and we were all fucked once ecane basically PR claimed. Ecane probably would've been killed regardless unless both scum are oblivious to this game.

Second, I didn't want foe lynched and hard townread him but all you guys were like "OMG lynch foe". Not only was he strong town from Zaicon's "slip" (I didn't want to use that as a tell so I didn't bring it up again), but he looked like very strong newbtown. Granted I didn't push this as much D3 as I should've since I was focused on other stuff, but still. And even if you don't townread me for it, at least you shouldn't be scumreading me for it lmao.

I don't know if I like you for town anymore, especially since I just realized JK/VT/Goon is a viable setup too. You should definitely explain why "you feel worse about me today than yesterday" if I have done nothing scummy since last night.

I only see scum-motivation for this. It looks like you could be setting me up to get lynched later today by casting doubt on me, and then playing up towncred by telling Rach to "not vote yet", but you're still setting the stage to ML on me. It feels like you're riding Rach's suspicions here. I might've mistakenly townread you earlier just because I agree with a lot of stuff you say, but I suppose even somewhat skilled scum can do that when they're trying to analyze the game from a "town perspective".

Nacho, what was the motivation behind claiming BP so early?

That was some scattered thoughts, but would like an explanation to this, let me know if you want something re-explained since it is late and I may not be fully coherent.

Nacho plz

[Zorblag]

@Foxbird, he's already talked about it so I'm not really answering anything for him so much as speeding things up (though, based on 367 and 377 alone it's clear that this is what he's either doing as town or faking as scum.) Here's where he talks about it with Nachomamma8 today:

I basically realized it after she said "There's no Cop in this setup". I don't usually gambit like how I did D1, so my first instinct was just to tell everyone to stfu, which I did. I realized later at some point that ecane was toast and that I should probably try to gambit to last ditch. Also, I saw your post against ecane and I was kind of inspired/reminded to do that. I thought your post against ecane actually was doing something similar in terms of gambiting suspicion, so I followed suit with you in a way.

As for what I personally take the vote at the end of the day to mean for his alignment, it's slightly scummy, but that's because he's moving his vote in a way that pretty much ensures a player he believes is town is going to be lynched (by taking away the other viable option.) The strength is mitigated by the fact that I'm pretty willing to believe that a town innocentvillager was convinced that RachMarie wasn't a good lynch either. Town should have done more earlier to move the wagon off foedufafa (innocentvillager says he disagrees because of why he thought foedufafa was town,) but that probably had to happen a bit earlier and doesn't factor in too heavily for this particular move's implications.

You should use your perception of the state of the game to decide whether the gambit was town or scum in your eyes, but like I say, he's made it clear that it was a gambit, so calling him scummy for pushing for a PR to get lynched should be a non-starter.

@innocentvillager, at this point I think it is likely that one of you and RachMarie are scum because you both come across as scummy independent of each other to me. I dislike much of the play from both of you and can easily see scum motives. That hasn't changed since yesterday. I don't particularly think that you're partners either though (I guess I should look into that a bit more, but it's not something that I've been feeling up till now.) I'm not sure who I'd pick right now if I were forced to choose between you in the next hour, but, to harp on it just a bit more, the interactions with Jaack might push me to RachMarie. If I decide that those interactions are the basis of a case I'd probably prefer a Jaack lynch first though. If RachMarie is scum, Jaack is almost certainly her partner. If Jaack is scum then RachMarie is a good candidate, but he could just be trying to leave her as mislynch bait in endgame, so it would be worth taking the time to look at everyone in isolation with him again.

I'm waiting to hear more from Jaack and Nachomamma8 on a couple fronts at this time. I've talked with you enough to know what I don't like specifically about your play, but I need context for the others to make a decision at this point in the game. I've largely given up on getting useful information from RachMarie in terms of game state.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[innocentvillager]

Interesting zorb

[innocentvillager]

Briefly explain jaack/each interactions plz?