Shadowrun Mafia - Game Over

[WorldzMine]

Between that and the hella weird interactions between McMenno and Worldzmine Worldzmine would be my top pick.

Now in a McMenno town world there would likely be scum trying to capitalize on McMenno's trolling. If McMenno town then Space Cowboy likely scum which makes it harder to capitalize which means if too much eagerness some flags start going up. In this world, Karnos who seems to be replicating what I taught him as scum or lurker Yume are helping to contribute to this and Worldzmine and McMenno are wtf with each other.

Him unvoting me midstream of my catch-up posts where it was clear I had no clue about the more recent events involving him and Space Cowboy, and saying he now had to rethink things is what caused me to respond the same.

I immediately thought if he's scum attempting to mislynch me being that I've been scumread a bit, why abandon it there? Scum doesn't immediately and unilaterally abandon a mislynch just because of something like this. (By "this" I mean it being rather evident that I'm not in some scum chat by having no clue of rather major events in game yet, while catching up)

It made me instantly realize, that *he* also may not be scum, and had possibly truthfully scum read me till he saw that.

After his rethink post, when I said I needed to also rethink a bit because his reaction implies things, I meant pretty much all these points and also the ones you just posted although none of it was as crystallized in my own mind to the degree you have shown in your post.

Anyway's all this means I agree with the scenario's you've laid out except for the world where I could be scum obviously.

Re-read my series of posts before our "weird interaction" again and you'll see I almost derp town-cleared myself there. He noticed that, then I noticed that he noticed it and my first thought was "Immediately unvoting me for this would be a weird reaction for scum" as I stated above. I swear I'm not trying to wifom btw, it's just that the truth to the "weird interaction" was a few layers deep from my side of it.

Okay...Let's assume for a minute you are town and agree with my scenarios.

Which of McMenno/Space Cowboy is town and why in your own words? And what should we do about it?

I am rereadibg your posts but I really don't like the sudden shift and the trying not to WiFoM. It feels really defensive. Like you are trying to hide from me asking questions. Also not sure why you dropped the third person either as that is your thing?

Not sure who, I still think we should lynch McMenno for the slips regardless without a full explanation that makes sense.

What third-person?

[MathBlade]

I'm a little wary that Menno might want to be in jail with Space Cowboy for some reason. Perhaps to permanently kill the slot? Something about this is sending up thousands of alarm bells in my head. Looking at it logically he is the only person we should be lynching today, I think. If he is trolling to that extent as town then we can't let it live to lylo, and there's a non zero chance that he truly scumslipped then tried to cover for himself.

VOTE: McMenno

L2

Townreading Koggz btw.
I have things confirmed but I'm on the verge of swapping my picks due to paranoia.

What did you think of my big theory wall?

Um, honestly? The moment you said that vig should be shooting someone they scumread who wouldn't get lynched I had something to say about it and stopped reading to type out a theory disagreement to you before deciding against it. We can talk theory after the game.

I will say, I don't believe being a dayvig makes him any alignment. What I do believe is it's plausible for a dayvig who looks like they might be going to jail to decide to use their ability before they lose the opportunity to do so. In that case, using it on the person that you're a counterwagon to isn't necessarily a bad idea, imo. If the person is town then we were essentially spared the mislynch. That said, we don't get the flips, and I can also see scum motivation behind that.

Put the "should we break one of them out" talk on hold til D2 I think, when we'll have more information.

Townreading Klingon.

Well right now the prison holds two people. Those two people are likely Space Cowboy and McMenno. If I am wrong then I need to be adjusted as that is why I spilled my thoughts. What do you think about them both?

[MathBlade]

Between that and the hella weird interactions between McMenno and Worldzmine Worldzmine would be my top pick.

Now in a McMenno town world there would likely be scum trying to capitalize on McMenno's trolling. If McMenno town then Space Cowboy likely scum which makes it harder to capitalize which means if too much eagerness some flags start going up. In this world, Karnos who seems to be replicating what I taught him as scum or lurker Yume are helping to contribute to this and Worldzmine and McMenno are wtf with each other.

Him unvoting me midstream of my catch-up posts where it was clear I had no clue about the more recent events involving him and Space Cowboy, and saying he now had to rethink things is what caused me to respond the same.

I immediately thought if he's scum attempting to mislynch me being that I've been scumread a bit, why abandon it there? Scum doesn't immediately and unilaterally abandon a mislynch just because of something like this. (By "this" I mean it being rather evident that I'm not in some scum chat by having no clue of rather major events in game yet, while catching up)

It made me instantly realize, that *he* also may not be scum, and had possibly truthfully scum read me till he saw that.

After his rethink post, when I said I needed to also rethink a bit because his reaction implies things, I meant pretty much all these points and also the ones you just posted although none of it was as crystallized in my own mind to the degree you have shown in your post.

Anyway's all this means I agree with the scenario's you've laid out except for the world where I could be scum obviously.

Re-read my series of posts before our "weird interaction" again and you'll see I almost derp town-cleared myself there. He noticed that, then I noticed that he noticed it and my first thought was "Immediately unvoting me for this would be a weird reaction for scum" as I stated above. I swear I'm not trying to wifom btw, it's just that the truth to the "weird interaction" was a few layers deep from my side of it.

Okay...Let's assume for a minute you are town and agree with my scenarios.

Which of McMenno/Space Cowboy is town and why in your own words? And what should we do about it?

I am rereadibg your posts but I really don't like the sudden shift and the trying not to WiFoM. It feels really defensive. Like you are trying to hide from me asking questions. Also not sure why you dropped the third person either as that is your thing?

Not sure who, I still think we should lynch McMenno for the slips regardless without a full explanation that makes sense.

What third-person?

Derp never mind I misread a sentence in my notes. Still rereading and honestly will probably take overnight to sort you as McMenno is probably getting lynched today.

[MathBlade]

I will admit that I faked the slip... partly for the lulz and partly to see space cowboy's reaction, their wagon seemed very likely to derail

I felt their reaction was very bad so I shot them

admit that it was a mistake to fake some "slips" but it's better if I get lynched day 1 instead of in lylo so you can catch the real scum later

see y'all in prison

oh and I feel like worldzmine is town probably

Which is it? You faked one or some "slips"? Explain. And keep in mind to be transparent I don't believe you. But I am not doing my due diligence if I don't ask.

[McMenno]

both of them... if you fake one slip might as well go the full mile right

oh if sc is not scum dnd is probably scum, there was probably also some bussing going on

if sc was scum dnd is probably town

[JaeReed]

Okay. Been doing some thinking on McMenno and I think there are four options:
1) McMenno was intentionally trolling to try to put attention on himself and then took out Space Cowboy as a good will gesture before they got likely lynched today. (This option is also town panick McMenno after a bad troll attempt.) This option McMenno is town. Space Cowboy's alignment unknown but likely scum based on prior play.
2) McMenno scum-slipped and then tried to frame Space Cowboy and when he realized that didn't work and direction was shifting off of Space Cowboy panicked and used their power to take out a townie before their lynch. This option McMenno scum and Space Cowboy town.
3) McMenno scum-slipped thrice. First time in thread the second to ask Space Cowboy for help. This makes both McMenno and Space Cowboy scum. (The third option in detail in a minute harder to explain)

I think 3 is the least likely scenario. 1 and 2 are equally likely.

The evidence of panic could be the action of using the dayvig on Space Cowboy. "Why troll in the first place?" Eh people troll. If I asked myself why people did half the stuff they do I'd drive myself up the wall. Sometimes people just do things. The real question here is as either alignment... Why not claim you were trolling instead of doing...whatever the fuck he's doing? That's what doesn't add up for me.

Like, the only answer I can think of to that is... He wants to be in jail with Space Cowboy for some reason.

I don't think asking about the usage of his power role would have been intended for the scum PT. It's something you can do in the main thread as any alignment so I can't see him not doing it. Especially if he wanted to handwave using it on town. "Furthermore I don't see a scum McMenno taking a scum Space Cowboy to prison. Therefore if McMenno is scum then Space Cowboy surely isn't." I wholeheartedly agree with that.

I think the biggest thing that becomes clear here is that it is extremely likely that McMenno and Space Cowboy are opposite alignments. It becomes a matter of we need to decide as a group of McMenno is likely scum and therefore Space Cowboy town and break him out OR McMenno is town and Space Cowboy can rot in jail.

Of the two options I actually think this makes Space Cowboy town because of all the hoops I would have to jump through to make McMenno town world work but I wanted to see what others thought. Especially since the first post says only two people may be broken out of prison then we would want to decide this as a group and not have to force a person to make a unilateral decision on their own. Pretty much I think any attempt to break someone out of prison should be a town decision. We don't know when an attempt could happen to break someone out and if the group thinks both are scum then they should both rot in prison. Or maybe we don't take the chance. But the first post says up to two people could be broken out so I wanted to throw the thoughts out there.

I don't necessarily agree with them being opposite alignments. The rest, I'd rather us wait to break someone out if we have someone who can do that, until we have more information.

P-Edit: Menno admitted to the slip being a troll so.. eh... I still feel that should have been admitted earlier?

[JaeReed]

Well right now the prison holds two people. Those two people are likely Space Cowboy and McMenno. If I am wrong then I need to be adjusted as that is why I spilled my thoughts. What do you think about them both?

I think it's possible they were both town, but now Menno's fucked up our ability to read either of them or make any actual use of this day phase.

Would you even allow yourself to be adjusted, Math? Self-voting doesn't get your attention and I don't know how to make a strong enough statement without it (I am joking <3 This paragraph is a joke and you are fine)

I don't disagree with your pre-flips aside from the fact that Space Cowboy and Menno have the possibility of both being town that I feel should be looked at.

[Koggz]

in mcmenno space cowboy both scum scenario
sending partner to jail may not make sense on surface
but perhaps deeper look can make some sense of things
here is one possible explanation

mcmenno realizes both mcmenno and spacecowboy are caught because of slip
in desperation caught scum more likely to go for hail mary type strategy
so in desperation mcmenno gets trolly to add confusion which is proper scum play after scum slip

without any mechanic to return from jail then killing partner makes zero sense
however prison break mechanic and no flip at lynch changes everything
it gives caughtscum a longshot but at least possible out

exactly because it seems unlikely on the surface to dayvig his partner
town may decide mcmenno and space cowboy cant share alignment
at which point town could attempt to rescue 1 of them
then because of belief they cant share alignment when the jailed scum does flip scum the rescued scum could be wrongfully cleared to coast into win

so the motive behind vig partner would be a desperate attempt to clear a caughtscum

[MathBlade]

Agreed. Furthered by the fact I asked them to be transparent and they aren't doing anything of the sort towards a reads list except if he is right or wrong makes him trolling highly unlikely.

Furthermore trolling with a dayvig is hella risky. It feels like he is caught scum trying to say what we want to hear instead of what is really the truth. I could see trolling with a role that is not powerful but a dayvig? He could have just taken the shot and claimed ownership afterward or maybe not even claimed it at all. Like what makes you think he could be town?

Let's assume for case and point McMenno and Space Cowboy both town. Then we get into a world where we have 3-4 scum and 14 players alive and not in prison. This means either 11 town v 3 scum or 10 town versus 4 scum right now pre kill. Assuming one town kill tonight:

10 town v 3 scum or 9 town v 4 scum either is a recipe for disaster.

Hence why we need to figure out what we are doing.

[Bold Vote Scientist]

VOTECOUNT 1.11

McMenno (8):

Daenerys and Dragons, Mathblade, karnos, Yume, Worldzmine, Koggz, JaeReed, Klingoncelt

WorldzMine (1):

Vedith

Not Voting (7):

McMenno, Vedith, grovyle, inspectorscout, PeregrineV, randomidget, Albert B. Rampage, Reasonably Rational

With 16 Alive and Free, it takes 9 to Lynch.
Deadline

: (expired on 2016-08-30 13:00:00)

The Party Leader is

JaeReed (The Face)

The Leader's Party is

Determined by PM and resolved at hammer.

The Lieutenant is (optional)

Determined by PM and resolved at hammer.

The Lieutenant's Party is (optional)

Determined by PM and resolved at hammer.

The Chosen Runs are

Determined by PM and resolved at hammer.

[Albert B. Rampage]

When do we ever get flips in this game?

[MathBlade]

in mcmenno space cowboy both scum scenario
sending partner to jail may not make sense on surface
but perhaps deeper look can make some sense of things
here is one possible explanation

mcmenno realizes both mcmenno and spacecowboy are caught because of slip
in desperation caught scum more likely to go for hail mary type strategy
so in desperation mcmenno gets trolly to add confusion which is proper scum play after scum slip

without any mechanic to return from jail then killing partner makes zero sense
however prison break mechanic and no flip at lynch changes everything
it gives caughtscum a longshot but at least possible out

exactly because it seems unlikely on the surface to dayvig his partner
town may decide mcmenno and space cowboy cant share alignment
at which point town could attempt to rescue 1 of them
then because of belief they cant share alignment when the jailed scum does flip scum the rescued scum could be wrongfully cleared to coast into win

so the motive behind vig partner would be a desperate attempt to clear a caughtscum

Unlikely. If we can't figure out who is town before any potential opportunities then we leave them both in jail to die. There is no reason we have to break anyone out we just have to decide as a group what is most likely and then if the opportunity arises we act on whatever the group has determined.

I figure we have three options
1) Break out Space Cowboy -- I think McMenno is scum so likely he tried to take a town on the way down.
2) Do nothing. Let the flips sort things out. -- Possible idea but that doesn't sit right with me.
3) Break out McMenno -- I hate this option. If we choose this we should just not lynch him today.


Those are in order of priority asked IMHO.

Pedit: @ABR --
Lynched players wind up in prison, rather than killed outright. A maximum of two players may return from the game after being imprisoned. Lynched players do not flip until no one can be released from prison anymore. There may or may not be mechanics that allow people to communicate with those in prison. When no one can escape or be released from prison anymore, all players in prison will flip and will die. All flips are confirmed accurate (no actresses/tricksters, death millers, godfathers, etc).

I feel like I have copied this before...oh wait....

[JaeReed]

Agreed. Furthered by the fact I asked them to be transparent and they aren't doing anything of the sort towards a reads list except if he is right or wrong makes him trolling highly unlikely.

Furthermore trolling with a dayvig is hella risky. It feels like he is caught scum trying to say what we want to hear instead of what is really the truth. I could see trolling with a role that is not powerful but a dayvig? He could have just taken the shot and claimed ownership afterward or maybe not even claimed it at all. Like what makes you think he could be town?

Let's assume for case and point McMenno and Space Cowboy both town. Then we get into a world where we have 3-4 scum and 14 players alive and not in prison. This means either 11 town v 3 scum or 10 town versus 4 scum right now pre kill. Assuming one town kill tonight:

10 town v 3 scum or 9 town v 4 scum either is a recipe for disaster.

Hence why we need to figure out what we are doing.

The thing that makes me think he could be town is that I didn't have a solid read on him before all this went down. If someone is going to troll then it doesn't matter what role they have, they're just gonna troll.

If they're both town, who would be the scum in that scenario?

[McMenno]

dnd probably

[Koggz]

I just realized there could be an argument to the contrary where it could be argued that I was attempting some gambit to make it just *look* like I had no clue what was going on to clear myself. My only answers to something like that is that it's something I don't think I'd be able to pull off and wouldn't try as a result, Occam's Razor where the simplest answer is probably the truth, and the progression of my posts showing my thinking on all these subjects changing on the fly as I caught up and responded. Bed time for me now.

perhaps is not so wise to invoke ockhams razor or wifom
if scum is aware or newtons flaming laser sword
how hard would it be to dodge?
but then wifom can be invoked into infinite regression mindfuck

koggz tend to attempt avoid thinking too deeply into such things because is very not healthy for koggz mental state

koggz throwed off enough without logic bomb make koggz head splode
so please dont

[JaeReed]

Unlikely. If we can't figure out who is town before any potential opportunities then we leave them both in jail to die. There is no reason we have to break anyone out we just have to decide as a group what is most likely and then if the opportunity arises we act on whatever the group has determined.

I figure we have three options
1) Break out Space Cowboy -- I think McMenno is scum so likely he tried to take a town on the way down.
2) Do nothing. Let the flips sort things out. -- Possible idea but that doesn't sit right with me.
3) Break out McMenno -- I hate this option. If we choose this we should just not lynch him today.

1 is the option I like the most but not until tomorrow and after we've discussed in full tomorrow. If that's even an option that we have.

[JaeReed]

I'm ready to go into night.

[Koggz]

I just realized there could be an argument to the contrary where it could be argued that I was attempting some gambit to make it just *look* like I had no clue what was going on to clear myself. My only answers to something like that is that it's something I don't think I'd be able to pull off and wouldn't try as a result, Occam's Razor where the simplest answer is probably the truth, and the progression of my posts showing my thinking on all these subjects changing on the fly as I caught up and responded. Bed time for me now.

perhaps is not so wise to invoke ockhams razor or wifom
if scum is aware

of

newtons flaming laser sword
how hard would it be to dodge?
but then wifom can be invoked into infinite regression mindfuck

koggz tend to attempt avoid thinking too deeply into such things because is very not healthy for koggz mental state

koggz throwed off enough without logic bomb make koggz head splode
so please dont

fixed typo

[MathBlade]

Agreed. Furthered by the fact I asked them to be transparent and they aren't doing anything of the sort towards a reads list except if he is right or wrong makes him trolling highly unlikely.

Furthermore trolling with a dayvig is hella risky. It feels like he is caught scum trying to say what we want to hear instead of what is really the truth. I could see trolling with a role that is not powerful but a dayvig? He could have just taken the shot and claimed ownership afterward or maybe not even claimed it at all. Like what makes you think he could be town?

Let's assume for case and point McMenno and Space Cowboy both town. Then we get into a world where we have 3-4 scum and 14 players alive and not in prison. This means either 11 town v 3 scum or 10 town versus 4 scum right now pre kill. Assuming one town kill tonight:

10 town v 3 scum or 9 town v 4 scum either is a recipe for disaster.

Hence why we need to figure out what we are doing.

The thing that makes me think he could be town is that I didn't have a solid read on him before all this went down. If someone is going to troll then it doesn't matter what role they have, they're just gonna troll.

If they're both town, who would be the scum in that scenario?

I would look at Vedith for starters with the confirmed scum comment. I would also look at those who pushed McMenno right after the vig flip. I was offline but still dropped my vote in the AM but I would look at the most vocal McMenno pusher at the start as scum because if McMenno is town they would know he was trolling and want to eliminate that mind set. Whoever suggested trolling first would also require a harder look at as well.

Pedit: McMenno's gotta be scum. Still not giving reads or any detailed thoughts. If McMenno is town I am going to be severely disappointed.

Pedit 2: what is newton's flaming laser sword?

Pedit 3: GMTA JaeReed
Pedit4: OMG would like to post sometime tonight.

[McMenno]

I don't have detailed thoughts because I'm phoneposting... prepare to be disappointed I suppose

I think jeaereed mathblade are town... koggz might be a sc buddy

[MathBlade]

Okay then when will you be at a computer...A natural thought would be "hey phone posting be on in blank hours" or something. So when will you be at a PC?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm ready to go into night.

What missions / crew? Tell us

[Albert B. Rampage]

VOTE: McMenno

Sorry dude

[Koggz]

I don't have detailed thoughts because I'm phoneposting... prepare to be disappointed I suppose

I think jeaereed mathblade are town... koggz might be a sc buddy

what was your reason for listing koggz as definite town?

[Koggz]

I don't have detailed thoughts because I'm phoneposting... prepare to be disappointed I suppose

I think jeaereed mathblade are town... koggz might be a sc buddy

what was your reason for listing koggz as definite town?

sry misread name
would like detective moonlight to answer though