Mini Normal 1809: Game Over

[Elyse]

Hi

I probably won't be able to post too much until Friday

but

MathBlade is most likely scum.

Ngl I am paranoid of a Wingback/Expedience team but MathBlade's all over the place D4 and pleads for a NL make me confident he's scum.

Wingback being all "I'm ready for the mega battle between me and Elyse tomorrow" makes me sure this is the team as well. There's nothing to really prove that Expedience is town now (outside of Wingback and MathBlade being hella scummy) that Hoopla is dead and town, yet Wingback is assuming that it's going to be me/him/Egg in LyLo. It reeks of scum knowing what's going to happen.

[Elyse]

Wingback/Expedience is possibly but unlikely

[Wingback]

First off, given I'm massively confident you and Mathblade you are scum, of course I expect to 1v1 you tomorrow. I don't know whether it's going to be Egg or Expedience in lylo with us and I frankly don't care at this point.

[Egg]

Elyse don't you think Wing would be more likely to take Expedience to LYLO than me if he's scum?

[Dierfire]

VOTE COUNT 5.01

MathBlade (1): Wingback

No Vote (4): Elyse, MathBlade, Expedience, Egg

With 5 players living, a lynch requires 3/5 votes.

TIMER

(expired on 2016-09-03 18:00:00)

NOTES

None

[Elyse]

Elyse don't you think Wing would be more likely to take Expedience to LYLO than me if he's scum?

Eh probably but then again that's mostly WIFOM. Cause if he takes you, it might make you think "hmm Elyse would totes take me" and vote me. And vice versa.

But the way he's saying "we'll get to that later" when talking about your read on me makes it seem like he's thinking of taking you.

[Egg]

True. A lot of his play yesterday could have even been testing the waters to see if he can take me or not. Like there was no reason for all of that discussion before no lynching and the assumption that I won't ever vote you was weird.

I'm probably ok with lynching mathblade. I'm just paranoid about the bbmolla/expedience slot...

[Wingback]

@Egg - you are a player in the game like any other with an unknown alignment. Figuring that out by grilling you on your reads and positions is the way I find out who the scumteam is. Keeping your reads secret this close to endgame is a ridiculously sub-optimal strategy. It's more important for me to read you than take wild guesses about your alignment by letting you not take reads and stances. I find that logic really bad which is the same type of logic some players use to not state their townreads when playing because apparently they think it'll tell the mafia who to kill or whatever. Transparency in reads is much, much more important than some idea of tricking the scum.

I didn't want discussion before no-lynching. I didn't want to no-lynch at all.

[Wingback]

What you are accusing me of (demanding that you state all your reads) is something that's actually a towntell. Elyse doesn't care about reading you because she already knows you are town.

Seriously, you came into the thread and said that you'd vote Elyse based on how confident she was that Mathblade was scum after being wrong about Hoopla. Then instead of laying low, I got suspicious that you were scum and started asking you a bunch of questions to nail down a solid read on you. Everything that's putting you off about me is me trying to read you. Something that Elyse is not doing in the slightest.

[Wingback]

Look at Mathblade's Post 1391 and Post 1394 and tell me if it's town talking about a scum player or scum bullshitting a townread on someone they know to be town.

[Wingback]

I hate pulling the self-meta card as it somewhat devalues my scumgame but here is my ISO in my completed scumgame on site. I linked you to the post where mylo starts. Key points: 1. I've repeatedly pushed for a no lynch given I genuinely believe it helps scum. 2. I played well enough to survive and win the game but what's missing is the crazy amount of motivation I have to read players. I posted "cases" and pushed townies but never did I try as hard to read anyone as I tried here to read you. I don't even play like this in all my towngames but I think this one game is the one I gave it everything I got and I'm really hoping you don't let this blow up in my face. Not once in that game did I get as frustrated as I am here and that's something that's fundamentally absent from my scumgame. I'm calm and composed and always have a plan. I can be quite calm as town too but here, I've gone so far outside the range of what is possible for me as scum that even a cursory glance should tell you I'm town here. I'm frustrated because I'm pouring it all out there. You say it wasn't easy to tell whether it's me or Elyse. Well, it wasn't exactly easy to figure out that you were town and Elyse was scum either. But I did what I had to do. I read whatever game you told me to read and I came to my conclusion and I expect nothing less from you.

[Elyse]

I don't see AtE as a scumtell like a lot of people on this site seem to do. I think townies and scum are equally likely to plead and AtE when their lives are on the line.

It's only scummy when it's deliberate, like what Wingback is doing now.

[Wingback]

Here's an idea. Why don't you bus your partner?

Also, self-meta =/= ATE. I'd only bring it up under the most dire and critical circumstances because outling the differences between my town and scum play and basically showing people the differences isn't something that anyone would be comfortable with.

[Egg]

What I said:
I'm probably ok with lynching mathblade

What Wing heard:
Let's lynch Wing just for the hell of it.

[Wingback]

No, I'm explaining why me over Elyse, not me over Math. I don't find stuff said in 3P LYLO to be very alignment-indicative so I find it a good idea to info-dump

before

3P LYLO as opposed to during.

Math's lynch today should be a given.

[Egg]

So you want me to tell scum who I'd vote tomorrow before they have to decide whether to keep me around? Sorry, but that's dumb. Like I said, today is the "is mathblade definitely our lynch?" day. That's pretty much it.

[Wingback]

Disagree but I don't think we're going to get anywhere so I'm fine with lynching Math and going from there.

[Wingback]

I'd suggest reading the posts I linked here as a good starting point:

Look at Mathblade's Post 1391 and Post 1394 and tell me if it's town talking about a scum player or scum bullshitting a townread on someone they know to be town.

And here's my meta-read on Math with relevant links:

The reason I'm confident it's not Mathblade/BBMolla is that Mathblade is incredibly obvious about who their scumpartners are. In Mini 1800, Mathblade killed me N1 because she was afraid that my research into their meta would help me figure out their alignment as well as her partners. Her posts in the scum PT (post 182, post 183, post 188 post 190, post 195, post 199, post 200) all show this.

Mathblade's townread on BBMolla doesn't make sense in the slightest as partner to partner interactions. For one, players who are natural bussers as scum find it a bit difficult to move into strongly townreading their partners the way Mathblade did. Secondly, the way she offered zero good reasons but had a high-confidence read based on nearly nothing fits very well into how Mathblade treats townies when they are town. See Mathblade's ISO in the game I'm talking about (Mini 1800) and Ctrl+F "johnny" who was the day one lynch and see Mathblade's comments on him. They continually defend him with no reasoning, just insisting that he was town. At one point, I felt like Mathblade was scum who knew that Johnny was town. I got the exact same feeling when Mathblade was defending BBMolla.

Obviously, there's going to be the argument of Mathblade manipulating her meta to trick me. The response to that is a) What I said above about players who bus. They tend to have an innate phobia of strongly townreading their partners because of how bad it might make them look, and b) The things I noticed about Mathblade are not behaviors that you can change on a whim.

Math/Elyse not only makes sense with Math's general meta, it fits with the general scum tactic of tying buddies to a townie. Both Mathblade and Elyse said that the other was scum with Hoopla but only wanted to lynch Hoopla. See Math's Post 1363 and all the quotes inside it. She says she doesn't see a world where Hoopla is scum and Elyse is town. Meaning if Hoopla is scum, Elyse HAS to be. By that logic, she should be voting Elyse. She doesn't. She's set on Hoopla.

Perhaps I'm being rather impatient here given the day has only opened a few hours earlier. But most of it is pent-up impatience from the past ten days of trying to get either one of the scum lynched and everyone sitting around on their hands and winding up no-lynching. If it's THAT important for you to hear Mathblade out, wait for them I guess. But to me, it seems very cut and dry. I can understand why it isn't so cut and dry to you if you haven't played with Mathblade before or have personal experience with them. The paranoia of BBMolla is justified if you don't have Mathblade as rock-solid scum given I too wasn't certain about him until recently. But the above links should help explain where I'm coming from.

[Wingback]

Mathblade posting up a storm elsewhere but stalling here should seal the deal.

[MathBlade]

Fuck off. Just got off a 12 hour shift and released a game. That game is moving faster. Omg Math has multiple games they must be scum. You are desperate.

[MathBlade]

That no lynch was ridiculous but I'm glad KTS is dead given the way he was playing. I had a feeling this might happen just because of how unpredictable/loose-cannon he was.

Down to lynch Mathblade or Elyse, whichever works for you two (Expedience and Egg). Very, very confident in that being the team. As an aside, my predecessor (Seraphim) caught the entire scumteam by D3 and hard-defended Hoopla while voting Mathblade. This should be a point against me-Mathblade being a team.

I can keep digging up more and more evidence but given Egg didn't read either the long version or the short version of my case on Elyse, I'm not really sure what else you need right now.

My primary reason for townreading BBMolla (Expedience's slot) is mostly interactions with Mathblade and Mathblade's whiteknighting of him. Before that, I didn't have a solid read although I liked when he pegged the scumteam as Elyse/Blankface because I too had suspicions of those two slots (Post 1285) at that time and thought they fit in well as partners.

As far as Mathblade is concerned, I'm beyond amazed that they weren't lynched the previous day since most of their posting amounted to trolling and trying to conceal who their partner is.

They didn't even care to look town,

they were just creating chaos to obscure who the partner was.

For example, they came into D4 saying that Egg and I were the scumteam and out of nowhere voted Elyse, then kept arguing for a no lynch which was the most neutral position that one can take. I'm super-excited about the KTS kill and the thought that we could actually win this despite our strongest PR getting modkilled in the middle of day one. Very much looking forward to Expedience's thoughts (I hope you used the night phase to catch up on the thread) and if you have any queries about me, I'm happy to answer those as well. I've pretty much laid out all my thoughts so just waiting on you and Egg.

Happy to bet the game on Mathblade's scumflip. If they're a rolestopper, Elyse is screwed. If not which is more likely, I'm bringing my sword and armor for the grand battle with Elyse tomorrow.

VOTE: Mathblade

I am not. The KTS kill you did so no one would listen. People scum read me so it became a matter of KTS getting a chance to reread the thread. KTS died because he has played with me and knows this is not my scum meta. You knew it too before it was convenient for you to switch.

Now you are trying to mislynch me in a package and it pisses me off. And I have no doubt you are willing to bet the game. You tried to get everyone to mislynch me yesterday. A no lynch was indeed the right play there.

[MathBlade]

Okay, so look at Post 1480. All the while, Mathblade was claiming that the team was Egg/Wingback and suddenly without warning, they put a vote on Elyse for something that was clearly a joke. Then they disappear and don't post for the rest of the day. Given that both of you and me weren't voting at the time and KTS was, this gives free reign for a potential Wingback/Egg team to hammer so the complete lack of paranoia doesn't make any sense.

Look at all of Mathblade's posts before that:

I am pretty damn sure Wingback + Egg is the team

"Pretty damn sure" that we're the team but votes Elyse... just like that. Before that in Post 1437, it's the same Wingback/Egg theory. And before that in Post 1418, it's all three of Egg/Wing/KTS that need scrutiny.

My theory is that because Elyse was being wagoned, she asked Mathblade in the scum PT to vote her so as to create a paranoid reflex from the town and get unvotes, possibly lynching Mathblade. Elyse and Mathblade have been pretty set on Mathblade being the first lynch because an Elyse lynch basically loses them the game. Even if you don't buy Elyse-scum, we'll cross that bridge later. Mathblade's vote there makes zero sense as coming from town.

Mathblade's later posting is similarly bad, just making dumb arguments and creating chaos.

Lol was that like posted out of scum chat? If you think it's MathBlade+Elyse/Wingback. Generally people refer to themselves as "me".

This is a completely nonsensical tell in the same line as Elyse claiming I scumslipped by calling Egg town for not hammering her.

Their and I think it is you + Elyse but more sure on you.

This is just as ridiculous as the Hoopla/Elyse team Mathblade was proposing. They are tying whoever they want to Elyse but always having Elyse as a backpocket scumread. Classic scum behavior and Mathblade is certainly blatant enough as scum to do this.

I noticed the only thing you say here is "dumb" arguments. Ohhh my reads are changing....Gasp that is a town tell I am reading the game. You are using colorful words to try to paint me as scum.

Where as I point out a slip and then you just say it is nonsense. And I already posted an argument to that effect. Odd you say it is Elyse.

Oh and FYI I do think Elyse is scum. However since you are actively leading the mislynch train I want you. Elyse I could take in a 1v1 if I had to.

[MathBlade]

I'd suggest reading the posts I linked here as a good starting point:

Look at Mathblade's Post 1391 and Post 1394 and tell me if it's town talking about a scum player or scum bullshitting a townread on someone they know to be town.

And here's my meta-read on Math with relevant links:

The reason I'm confident it's not Mathblade/BBMolla is that Mathblade is incredibly obvious about who their scumpartners are. In Mini 1800, Mathblade killed me N1 because she was afraid that my research into their meta would help me figure out their alignment as well as her partners. Her posts in the scum PT (post 182, post 183, post 188 post 190, post 195, post 199, post 200) all show this.

Mathblade's townread on BBMolla doesn't make sense in the slightest as partner to partner interactions. For one, players who are natural bussers as scum find it a bit difficult to move into strongly townreading their partners the way Mathblade did. Secondly, the way she offered zero good reasons but had a high-confidence read based on nearly nothing fits very well into how Mathblade treats townies when they are town. See Mathblade's ISO in the game I'm talking about (Mini 1800) and Ctrl+F "johnny" who was the day one lynch and see Mathblade's comments on him. They continually defend him with no reasoning, just insisting that he was town. At one point, I felt like Mathblade was scum who knew that Johnny was town. I got the exact same feeling when Mathblade was defending BBMolla.

Obviously, there's going to be the argument of Mathblade manipulating her meta to trick me. The response to that is a) What I said above about players who bus. They tend to have an innate phobia of strongly townreading their partners because of how bad it might make them look, and b) The things I noticed about Mathblade are not behaviors that you can change on a whim.

Math/Elyse not only makes sense with Math's general meta, it fits with the general scum tactic of tying buddies to a townie. Both Mathblade and Elyse said that the other was scum with Hoopla but only wanted to lynch Hoopla. See Math's Post 1363 and all the quotes inside it. She says she doesn't see a world where Hoopla is scum and Elyse is town. Meaning if Hoopla is scum, Elyse HAS to be. By that logic, she should be voting Elyse. She doesn't. She's set on Hoopla.

Perhaps I'm being rather impatient here given the day has only opened a few hours earlier. But most of it is pent-up impatience from the past ten days of trying to get either one of the scum lynched and everyone sitting around on their hands and winding up no-lynching. If it's THAT important for you to hear Mathblade out, wait for them I guess. But to me, it seems very cut and dry. I can understand why it isn't so cut and dry to you if you haven't played with Mathblade before or have personal experience with them. The paranoia of BBMolla is justified if you don't have Mathblade as rock-solid scum given I too wasn't certain about him until recently. But the above links should help explain where I'm coming from.

You have no grounds to cry meta. We have played one game. I was scum that game. You are picking and choosing meta to fit your argument. Did I bus this game? No because I am not scum. In fact Hoopla's tow flip proves I am town by meta.

[MathBlade]

Here's an idea. Why don't you bus your partner?

Also, self-meta =/= ATE. I'd only bring it up under the most dire and critical circumstances because outling the differences between my town and scum play and basically showing people the differences isn't something that anyone would be comfortable with.

Here's an idea why don't you vote yourself or bus your partner?

[Egg]

Wing, why didn't you vote Elyse instead of mathblade today?