Newbie 1732 [Game Over!]: InnocentVille

[shannon]

Everyone on TNE!

[shannon]

@Implosion I'm referring to the cases you tried to make in 580 and 501.

Your points about PP and about me both rely on recounts of D1 that look plausible on the face of things, but are able to be shown incorrect.

In response to my questions, you claimed that there were two competing wagons and that's why you didn't vote 0x40 when you questioned him late D1. But looking back at the day, one of them wasn't an active wagon - it was two votes on a wagon that people were moving *off* of, and one of those votes belonged to the inactive Rocnix.

In PP's case, you've tried to make it look like he was committed to voting Rocnix and then jumped, and that's plausible on the face of things, because PP did put a time limit on his support of Rocnix. But PP has shown that he changed vote because Rocnix went beyond prod during that period and was going to be replaced, so staying on her wagon didn't make sense. Which I think is fair enough. (PP could still be scum, but this act wasn't scummy IMHO).

[AstralFlare]

Feeling a bit awkward right now about not voting, but I'm torn.
- A PP vote would put him on L-1, I'm not convinced he is scum so not willing to do that. Should do another ISO, because his day 1 made me lean town on him.
- A Drone vote - I want to, but Implosion's switch to him makes me wary. Need to figure out why.
- Part of me wants to put the vote the vote back on TNE, as she's being infuriating and even the IC can't make sense of her reasoning. But the other part of me is still optimistinc that she'll clear it all up and really can solve the game (but how??).

I need to think about this. I want Drone to talk, TNE to talk, if there is an actual CC it'd better happen now - though I don't really understand why TNE would still expect one.

Go back for TNE ty. At least until she explains all her statements regarding claiming, and until does some actual scumhunting—not PR fishing. I want pressure on both TNE and PP. I want them both to talk.

[PenguinPower]

I want them both to talk.

Um...I have?

[thenewearth]

VOTE: Implosion

[thenewearth]

I don't usually do this but when an IC says this:

Yeah I don't know what PR solvable means to begin with. In that post I was attempting to guess X_X

Then that means the IC is scum. If he were town he'd agree because IC would usually be super experienced with this setup AND would know that this game would be easily solved. Heck even newbies with a bit of thought can think about why. And trust me I've been caught offguard by newbie games alot 3 years ago

[PenguinPower]

I don't usually do this but when an IC says this:

Yeah I don't know what PR solvable means to begin with. In that post I was attempting to guess X_X

Then that means the IC is scum. If he were town he'd agree because IC would usually be super experienced with this setup AND would know that this game would be easily solved. Heck even newbies with a bit of thought can think about why. And trust me I've been caught offguard by newbie games alot 3 years ago

He also said the last time he was an IC was 5 years ago. Is it not reasonable to assume that he really does not have an idea? So far, I think you are the only one that has a clue what you are talking about in regard to PR solvable...

[thenewearth]

that is: claiming before LyLo. But, in this situation, the BP would not even know they were targeted! There could have been some other target + a Jailkeeper.

Can you think about it for a second? What would you trust more? A BP who claims D2 or a BP who claims pre-LyLo? Its highly unlikely for scum to claim BP on D2, but more likely on pre-lylo.

Just think about why. You'll get it.

Eventually

[shannon]

TNE I don't get it, so if I make guesses will you walk me through? In the spirit of helpfulness?

Here's what I've got -

Scum is unlikely to claim BP D2 because they'd have to explain why they are alive for the rest of the game, i.e why two shots weren't taken on them.

Scum are more likely to claim BP pre-LYLO because by then they'd have a better idea of whether such a claim was even plausible, because there'd usually be at least one PR flip. So like, if a doctor had flipped, no point scum trying to claim BP.

So the early claim makes Chrimi more likely to be town?

That's all I've got, am I on the right track?

[shannon]

Also, I copied this from the guide to being an IC - you don't have to have 'tonnes of experience' with the setup.

A player that finishes any five games, with at least two outside of The Road to Rome, and has at least 3 months on-site may apply to be an Inexperience Challenged (IC) player.
Replacing out of a game does not count as finished!
At least one of your 5 games must be a Newbie game, either as a Newbie or as an SE.

[PenguinPower]

TNE I don't get it, so if I make guesses will you walk me through? In the spirit of helpfulness?

Here's what I've got -

Scum is unlikely to claim BP D2 because they'd have to explain why they are alive for the rest of the game, i.e why two shots weren't taken on them.

Scum are more likely to claim BP pre-LYLO because by then they'd have a better idea of whether such a claim was even plausible, because there'd usually be at least one PR flip. So like, if a doctor had flipped, no point scum trying to claim BP.

So the early claim makes Chrimi more likely to be town?

That's all I've got, am I on the right track?

So, if this is the case, why would tne advocate lynching Chrimi (BP)? An early BP claim is more likely to be town...why would we lynch a likely town? And how does this solve the game?

[implosion]

I don't usually do this but when an IC says this:

Yeah I don't know what PR solvable means to begin with. In that post I was attempting to guess X_X

Then that means the IC is scum. If he were town he'd agree because IC would usually be super experienced with this setup AND would know that this game would be easily solved. Heck even newbies with a bit of thought can think about why. And trust me I've been caught offguard by newbie games alot 3 years ago

Uh. What.

First of all I've literally never played Matrix6. Back the last time I played a newbie game they were still using c9 or whatever it was called.
Second of all again, what? Why would I lie about that as scum. What advantage do I possibly gain by lying about not knowing what PR solvable means.
You're being extremely cryptic. I don't even know what is meant by the phrase "pr solvable" to begin with so I don't know why you expect me to apply it to a setup I've never played.

@AF I'll get to what you said after work, don't have time atm.

[Drone]

@Cass

Rocnix's play style is different than mine. Some things she done were foolish in my opinion and put me in a disadvantage of not being able to fully explain these actions.
For example, jumping from vote to vote which is considered scummy. But apparently it is a tool here to make others talk (then what are FoSes here for anyway?). So I don't know, Rocnix was voting those she wanted information from, but the pattern of returning to tne shortly after (about three times) is not something to be laid to rest.
As for myself; I do not condemn policy lynching. But for me, on day 1 (espeically when I only replaced and didn't check thoroughly ALL the options) checking other options would be essential and the best thing I could do.
I thought 0x40 was a towny (I repeat myself, a bad one too), so I've been checking other options.

For AF; I explained why my vote is on Cass; for information.
I did receive it, and willing to unvote.

/unvote

If you'd who'd be my best choice for lynch on day 2? It would be PP. But I yet to have a better case to vote. I don't think voting basing only on someone's

[PenguinPower]

It would be PP. But I yet to have a better case to vote. I don't think voting basing only on someone's

First...uh, what?

Second, what's your case on me? You stated you were going to read my ISO, but you haven't commented. It looks like your case so far is sheeping a null/weak townlean who is now voting you.

What are your thoughts on implosion and tne since your post 560? Any scummier/townier on either, or are they still null?

[Chrimi]

TNE I don't get it, so if I make guesses will you walk me through? In the spirit of helpfulness?

Here's what I've got -

Scum is unlikely to claim BP D2 because they'd have to explain why they are alive for the rest of the game, i.e why two shots weren't taken on them.

Scum are more likely to claim BP pre-LYLO because by then they'd have a better idea of whether such a claim was even plausible, because there'd usually be at least one PR flip. So like, if a doctor had flipped, no point scum trying to claim BP.

So the early claim makes Chrimi more likely to be town?

That's all I've got, am I on the right track?

So, if this is the case, why would tne advocate lynching Chrimi (BP)? An early BP claim is more likely to be town...why would we lynch a likely town? And how does this solve the game?

He's not advocating lynching me, check his vote.

@TNE: Stop voting Implosion, I don't know what you mean by PR solvable either.

[PenguinPower]

TNE I don't get it, so if I make guesses will you walk me through? In the spirit of helpfulness?

Here's what I've got -

Scum is unlikely to claim BP D2 because they'd have to explain why they are alive for the rest of the game, i.e why two shots weren't taken on them.

Scum are more likely to claim BP pre-LYLO because by then they'd have a better idea of whether such a claim was even plausible, because there'd usually be at least one PR flip. So like, if a doctor had flipped, no point scum trying to claim BP.

So the early claim makes Chrimi more likely to be town?

That's all I've got, am I on the right track?

So, if this is the case, why would tne advocate lynching Chrimi (BP)? An early BP claim is more likely to be town...why would we lynch a likely town? And how does this solve the game?

He's not advocating lynching me, check his vote.

@TNE: Stop voting Implosion, I don't know what you mean by PR solvable either.

569 572...maybe not pushing for it, but advocating. I don't understand why you would want to lynch someone you thought was town, especially a PR.

[AstralFlare]

that is: claiming before LyLo. But, in this situation, the BP would not even know they were targeted! There could have been some other target + a Jailkeeper.

Can you think about it for a second? What would you trust more? A BP who claims D2 or a BP who claims pre-LyLo? Its highly unlikely for scum to claim BP on D2, but more likely on pre-lylo.

Just think about why. You'll get it.

Eventually

Because there's a higher chance they will get CCed Day 2 since they don't know for certain which setup the game is using?

I don't know.

You're deliberately being cryptic and trying to spread confusion, which is scummy.

[shannon]

Can we please get more votes on TNE so we can get an actual real explanation?

[AstralFlare]

VOTE: TNE sure. My vote on Pp doesn't look like it's doing much.

[shannon]

Is anyone around? I feel like we need to have a good chat about this in something like real time in order to sort it out. I feel like I keep missing everyone because of the time zones.

[implosion]

I'm going to call you scum partners with PP that's what. He rebutted your argument, you didn't seem convinced by his rebuttal, and yet you took your vote away and put it on Drone.

Alright. Several comments here.
1: just a general caution: pre-flip partner hunting is still really bad. The a priori odds that you're correct are sufficiently low that it's barely if at all worth doing. With that out of the way,
2: I actually was somewhat convinced by his rebuttal. I didn't make it obvious, though, which was somewhat intentional because I wanted to see if he'd have any interesting reaction to me unvoting seemingly "out of nowhere" but. I feel like 583 has the emotional content of a townie who feels like they are being unjustly misrepresented. He also was in a sense correct that I was being manipulative. At the point of 580 I wasn't really convinced by the argument I was making; I just wanted to see how the argument would wind up playing out.
3: I feel like I've gotten a fair amount out of this pressure; I want to turn somewhere else and give PP some breathing room so he can develop more reads since he still hasn't really "committed" to anything and if he's town he may just not have the time to reassess if he's constantly rebutting me.

Sure you want pressure on Drone to see his reaction to the ISO, but your pressure on PP has yielded no scumhunting from him, so why not keep it there? Why go from a 3 man wagon to a 0 man one?

For why to leave a 3-man wagon, see above; at this point I don't think the pressure is helping, if anything it's stifling him from scumhunting if he's town. Scumhunting is not the only way to give off towntells; you can also do it through something like betraying genuine town motivation or a view of the game that only town is likely to have.

[implosion]

In response to my questions, you claimed that there were two competing wagons and that's why you didn't vote 0x40 when you questioned him late D1. But looking back at the day, one of them wasn't an active wagon - it was two votes on a wagon that people were moving *off* of, and one of those votes belonged to the inactive Rocnix.

It being an inactive wagon is, if anything, all the more reason to see that vote count as not consolidated. Yes, there was a three-person wagon, but my point is that there were also 6 other players in the game (including myself) who weren't really doing anything at the time with their votes.

In PP's case, you've tried to make it look like he was committed to voting Rocnix and then jumped, and that's plausible on the face of things, because PP did put a time limit on his support of Rocnix. But PP has shown that he changed vote because Rocnix went beyond prod during that period and was going to be replaced, so staying on her wagon didn't make sense. Which I think is fair enough. (PP could still be scum, but this act wasn't scummy IMHO).

You're correct here and this is part of why I've reneged; I only really realized that the prod duration was a thing near the end of that argument.

Anyway shannon I'm sort of here but I'm also tired and idk how much longer I will be online. I'm not sure what exactly you want to have a real-time chat about - tne being cryptic? Because I feel like that conversation sort of stops at "tne is being cryptic." I still really haven't figured out what I think that means wrt her alignment.

[shannon]

What I mean is that being online at different times is allowing TNE to dodge questions. I don't think she even replied to the first case I made on her, where I took her questioning in combination with the BP claim to mean that she was mafia on a team with a RB. Maybe she thought it was trivial enough not to deserve a response, IDK.

I just feel like at the moment we're mostly talking past each other, and people are conveniently ignoring points made against them because the stilted conversation allows them to.

[implosion]

That's fair.

[Cass]

I really doubt Tne is going to give more answers. Yet, like implosion, I'm very hesitant to call her scum for it (yet). Because a) it's such reckless play, unusual for scum and b) she might well see something I don't, since I have no experience with this set-up. So I don't really want to lynch her today, but would rather have more information first. Though that also means t.aking a risk, but then again taking risks is usually necessary to win, hence my current uncertainty.

Question for everyone: if today were the deadline, do you think we should lynch tne?

My answer: in that case, right now, I'd rather take the risk and lynch Drone instead. So, to reflect that:
VOTE: Drone