Newbie 1732 [Game Over!]: InnocentVille

[shannon]

Can you explain why you asked for BP claims early on D2, after telling me D1 that any kind of PR fishing was scummy?

[thenewearth]

If there was an NK there wouldn't be any problems

[Cass]

This might be foolish, and I have no evidence - but I really don't think TNE is scum. I don't think we should lynch her today, considering the numbers we better get scum.

Drone sounds much more townish in her recent posts.

I'm thinking Implosion might be the best lynch for today, or maybe Astralflare. When I have more time, I'll ISO both of these and Drone again - killing town could really hurt us in this situation, so i want to be somewhat convinced. And also Jibs, to see if I can answer Drone's question about him. Might not be today, though. So I'd rather we don't lynch anyone yet, ok?

UNVOTE: Drone for now. Not that there's much of a risk, but the gesture seems appropriate.

[Drone]

tne, can you please shed some light onto this wagon on you?
You're active, yes. But uninformative.
Alright you never actually voted her. You did cause her to claimed, now she's uncc'ed.
What have you to say now? You asked for the claim.
You had a motive.

Speak up please.

Intent to hammer

[AstralFlare]

UNVOTE:

Ok I thought this was just for pressure why do people actually want to lynch her... With 8 days left on the clock!?

[AstralFlare]

Imp I'll get to your questions later

[AstralFlare]

What I'm saying is that even if you think she's scum, hammering someone with 8 days left to dateline is like ultra bad for town, you're throwing away eight days of information.

And TNE answer the questions as well thanks. This is the one time I might be convinced to policy lynch.

[AstralFlare]

2) Why did you fail to address my initial accusation that you were scum and fishing for roles? I even pinned it down to which team I thought you were in. If you think it's a ridiculous accusation, you could at least take the time to explain why.


5) Why are you being cryptic instead of engaging with the rest of us in a productive way? Saying thinks like 'you'll learn one day' doesn't help the town team you're playing with now. I'm reading over your posts again and I can't see anything that hints at a PR crumb, so there's got to be some other reason.

I think it's coming to a time when you need to make a substantive contribution to the game or you're going to get lynched. If you're town, this is your chance to make a real case to defend yourself. Even better, make a substantive case on someone else. I won't accept three line posts, cryptic stuff, and 'you'll see' as answers. Your play isn't doing anything to help town, and I regret that I was one who town read you yesterday.

TNE, you haven't answered these two of shannon's questions. Also rereading shannon's list of questions there's a lot of leading questions worded and supplemented with info that implies she's scum.

I'd like a bit more elaboration on this as well; from what I can read of your posts today, you seem to think that the way I'm acting is indicative of me being scum with PP, but you also described my play as being unlikely to come from scum who was angling for a mislynch. Has this just changed since I jumped off the wagon? If not, then why am I listed higher than PP, if my being scum is contingent on my being scum with PP? Do you have reason to scumread me individually at this point? Do you have reason to scumread PP individually at this point? Why is Drone on the same level as TNE? Last thing I can see you directly saying about him is calling him a misguided townie.

You're higher on my list because I have a stronger and individual scumread on you. Actions like misreping timelines, actions like waffling make me scumread you, it's not dependent on PP being scum as well. Drone is on the same level as TNE because You/PP are my scumreads, Shannon/Cass/Chrimi are obvious town, so by PoE Drone and TNE are in third place.

[shannon]

^^I'm surprised to see an intent to hammer at this point too, can we please hold off from hammering but keep votes up for pressure? We still haven't got any real answers. The result is the same as D1, except without the righteous indignation. (Now I'm wondering whether Drone is scum with TNE and calling our bluff, because he knows it's early and someone will back away from the hammer. I've made exactly this play myself, so I'm somewhat alert to it).

@AF - "Also rereading shannon's list of questions there's a lot of leading questions worded and supplemented with info that implies she's scum." - - is the implication here that I'm scum, or that I have info that would show TNE is?

[AstralFlare]

@AF - "Also rereading shannon's list of questions there's a lot of leading questions worded and supplemented with info that implies she's scum." - - is the implication here that I'm scum, or that I have info that would show TNE is?

.
Implication is that you're townie who's very convinced that your read is accurate, whether through PR or otherwise I don't know. I'm just getting that your TNE read is super super strong, and it has the potential to cloud your scumhunting.

[AstralFlare]

VOTE: Implosion

Planting my vote back here

[thenewearth]

tne, can you please shed some light onto this wagon on you?

Yeah but the thing is why would I care?

There's no real reason behind it. Only me being a dick

Get over it

[thenewearth]

Also lynch implosion plz

[thenewearth]

TNE, you haven't answered these two of shannon's questions. Also rereading shannon's list of questions there's a lot of leading questions worded and supplemented with info that implies she's scum.

I'll answer them if I think they're worth answering, thanks

[Cass]

Also lynch implosion plz

I'm starting to really like this option. And if he flips scum, we can lynch Drone next (and win??). Seriously, unless tne is playing us hard, imp/drone is starting to look like the obvious scumteam. And in that case, an implosion lynch is our best move now.

VOTE: Implosion

[implosion]

imp/drone is starting to look like the obvious scumteam.

Implosion - reasons already given, though TNE suggesting we lynch him puts me off a bit. I still like these two for a team

I'm going to call you scum partners with PP that's what.

I know I've said this like five times at this point but people REALLY seem to love trying to tie me to people.

Pre-flip associations are really, really bad. I know some of these are just people fosing me and someone else separately but it seems like people are just making connections between me and half of the playerlist. Which is really objectively bad, because if I'm scum I'm scum with exactly one other player. I'm reminded of something from my very first newbie game on this site six years ago. On day one, someone (who was town) made an ordered list of the players based on how much information we would get by lynching them. The very last two people on that list were scum, which was ironic because they were arguing that lynching for information is good. Obviously I'm not being argued as an information lynch but the point is that having ties to other players doesn't make someone scum; often it's the opposite, and scum (especially experienced scum) are going to avoid making obvious connections to their partners. Which is why seeing three people tying me to three different people as scum with them, and then a fourth (tne) arguing that I'm scum for literally zero reason and essentially not playing the game, is frustrating.

[implosion]

I tend to think AF's vote on me (and his recent play in general) pings townish but Cass's looks extremely opportunistic, particularly if tne is also town; there's a lot of very disparate pressure on me as I just pointed out, and as everyone has pointed out I'm doing much more than tne so if we're both town I'm a more desirable mislynch (and my mislynch would also potentially set up a tne mislynch tomorrow, again assuming we're both town). Like, with mounting pressure from AF and tne (and elsewhere), Cass's vote on me is really an obvious move for her to make if she's scum.

The main point that's been made about me is that I've been misrepresenting things, but as I've pointed out I don't gain things as scum by intentionally misrepresenting things that can be factually proven wrong. That just isn't how I approach the game as scum; I don't try to manipulate what things factually happened in the game to my advantage. It's a silly approach as scum because if one person sees what you're doing then they can catch you. I've misread and misremembered things; it happens.

Something else about Cass's play pings me as off but I can't put my finger quite on it. Someone (maybe AF?) called her obvtown earlier; I'd appreciate if they could justify that.

[Drone]

Me. And that's cause she was digging exactly where I wanted her to dig, and pointing out exactly what I wanted her to.
In fact, I've done the same thing.

[Cass]

imp/drone is starting to look like the obvious scumteam.

Implosion - reasons already given, though TNE suggesting we lynch him puts me off a bit. I still like these two for a team

I'm going to call you scum partners with PP that's what.

I know I've said this like five times at this point but people REALLY seem to love trying to tie me to people.

Pre-flip associations are really, really bad. I know some of these are just people fosing me and someone else separately but it seems like people are just making connections between me and half of the playerlist. Which is really objectively bad, because if I'm scum I'm scum with exactly one other player. I'm reminded of something from my very first newbie game on this site six years ago. On day one, someone (who was town) made an ordered list of the players based on how much information we would get by lynching them. The very last two people on that list were scum, which was ironic because they were arguing that lynching for information is good. Obviously I'm not being argued as an information lynch but the point is that having ties to other players doesn't make someone scum; often it's the opposite, and scum (especially experienced scum) are going to avoid making obvious connections to their partners. Which is why seeing three people tying me to three different people as scum with them, and then a fourth (tne) arguing that I'm scum for literally zero reason and essentially not playing the game, is frustrating.

Weak defense, trying to distract us? The associations are not the reason for the wagon on you, exactly because of the lack of flips. I don't see any player not aware of this. It may seem that way to you, but not to me - but tbh you sound so unconvinced about this yourself that it confirms all my bad feelings about your alignment.

I can promise you, if you flip scum I'll re-evaluate all possible connections tomorrow with an open mind and I will not impulsively lynch Drone. Btw, How do you feel about Drone's 'intent to hammer' post? And just how convinced are you (as a percentage) that TNE is scum? Could you describe for us a logical line of reasoning behind scum!tne's actions today? Who would make the most sense as her partner, and why?

[Cass]

I tend to think AF's vote on me (and his recent play in general) pings townish but Cass's looks extremely opportunistic, particularly if tne is also town; there's a lot of very disparate pressure on me as I just pointed out, and as everyone has pointed out I'm doing much more than tne so if we're both town I'm a more desirable mislynch (and my mislynch would also potentially set up a tne mislynch tomorrow, again assuming we're both town). Like, with mounting pressure from AF and tne (and elsewhere), Cass's vote on me is really an obvious move for her to make if she's scum.

The main point that's been made about me is that I've been misrepresenting things, but as I've pointed out I don't gain things as scum by intentionally misrepresenting things that can be factually proven wrong. That just isn't how I approach the game as scum; I don't try to manipulate what things factually happened in the game to my advantage. It's a silly approach as scum because if one person sees what you're doing then they can catch you. I've misread and misremembered things; it happens.

Something else about Cass's play pings me as off but I can't put my finger quite on it. Someone (maybe AF?) called her obvtown earlier; I'd appreciate if they could justify that.

Ehm... this is very twisted logic. I mean, if you are town, and tne is town, and I am scum - why would I not simply push the tne lynch? Encourage Drone to hammer, or hell... do it myself! I simply don't want her lynched, because I think she's town. And oddly, I feel much the same about your play, as you do about mine. The reasons may be opposite- you strike me as too careful, non-committal. I may strike you as the opposite?

Still thinking about your previous post, about connections - since you point it out yourself: You may be consciously playing this way to avoid strong links to any other player (or rather, a specific other player :p ), and this is what causes you to be linked to three or four different 'partners' by three or four different players? But I don't want to over-analyze this before we have a flip.

Unrelated question: Do you think now would be a good time for a lynch, or would a longer day benefit town more?

[shannon]

If there was an NK there wouldn't be any problems

I think I can sort this out once and for all, TNE would you like to claim a role please?

[shannon]

Yeah because making it easier for scum to NK the towniest player is the greatest contribution

bzzt

I think it's fair to say I'm the towniest player at the moment, and I've got nothing to fear from being NKed, so would you please share the rest of your reads now?

Also lynch implosion plz

As best I can tell, your vote on Implosion came from him not understanding the PR-solvable thing, which seems like weak point. Do you have more on him?

[Chrimi]

Also lynch implosion plz

I'm starting to really like this option. And if he flips scum, we can lynch Drone next (and win??). Seriously, unless tne is playing us hard, imp/drone is starting to look like the obvious scumteam. And in that case, an implosion lynch is our best move now.

VOTE: Implosion

Lining up lynches.

The wagon on implosion is scum driven. Your un-CC'd claim says to get off of it and do something more useful. Like this.

VOTE: Cass

[shannon]

Alright, no point hanging out on a case where I'm not going to get anything.

VOTE: Cass

[implosion]

Weak defense, trying to distract us? The associations are not the reason for the wagon on you, exactly because of the lack of flips. I don't see any player not aware of this. It may seem that way to you, but not to me - but tbh you sound so unconvinced about this yourself that it confirms all my bad feelings about your alignment.

The associations aren't the reason for the wagon and I acknowledged that I'm being fossed individually (and have also refuted those points separately). This paragraph was more of a high level observation that people are focusing too much (i.e., focusing at all) on team hunting.

I can promise you, if you flip scum I'll re-evaluate all possible connections tomorrow with an open mind and I will not impulsively lynch Drone. Btw, How do you feel about Drone's 'intent to hammer' post? And just how convinced are you (as a percentage) that TNE is scum? Could you describe for us a logical line of reasoning behind scum!tne's actions today? Who would make the most sense as her partner, and why?

Drone's intent to hammer post is fine. Doesn't make me feel strongly either way. WRT tne, I'm not sure why you're phrasing it as "how convinced are you." I think I've made it fairly clear that I can't read tne well right now. She's simply being inscrutable. She's acting out a playstyle in a way that I can't really determine with the information that I have what the nuances would be if she were town vs if she were scum. I also don't really see percentages as a meaningful thing to say. Compressing a complex opinion into a number obscures any nuance of the opinion. Really if she's scum her actions are her playing to how she thinks she would be playing if she were town, again, based on her playstyle. She's refusing to engage in logical discourse; if she's town then that's because that's how she plays, so if she's scum it's probably just because it's how she plays as town and she's emulating her town meta. I haven't put any thought at all into who would be a likely partner for her and don't really intend to because, again, I see it as wasted effort. I suppose my answer to that question would be that her most likely partner is you because you're my biggest scumread at this point; I'm not interested in trying to look at the 21 (7 choose 2) different possible pairs of people who could be scum together at this point fmpov and try to get anything out of their interactions.

Ehm... this is very twisted logic. I mean, if you are town, and tne is town, and I am scum - why would I not simply push the tne lynch?

Chrimi summed it up much more concisely than I did:

Lining up lynches.

Unrelated question: Do you think now would be a good time for a lynch, or would a longer day benefit town more?

First of all I don't really think there's an obvious better outcome between lynching now or later; it's fine if the day goes longer because I think we're getting plenty out of it (it hasn't stalled yet) but I don't think it inherently needs to go longer. I still

sort of

need to sort drone (and tne but I know that isn't going to happen) but I'm feeling better about a scumread on you.
Second of all what are you intending to get out of this question? This to me doesn't strike me as the kind of question that you ask your primary scumread; are you trying to get a better read on me based on my answer to this question (and if so how) or are you asking it for some other reason (and if so what)?

VOTE: Cass