Open 652- Making Friends and Enemies: Over

[Zyf]

And can someone give me a quick summary of the case on her/me?

Last time I saw someone ask this it was my scum partner in my Newbie game, and from what the IC, Nacho, explained to me it is a common scumtell to focus on your predicessor's image as soon as you join rather than anyone else's. Or like even just reading the few pages which wouldn't take long at all.

oh i did this in another game as scum, is it a thing mainly scum do?

[texcat]

And can someone give me a quick summary of the case on her/me?

Last time I saw someone ask this it was my scum partner in my Newbie game, and from what the IC, Nacho, explained to me it is a common scumtell to focus on your predicessor's image as soon as you join rather than anyone else's. Or like even just reading the few pages which wouldn't take long at all.

I'd normally agree. But I'm concentrated on the mislynch leader. It seems to me that at least some of the votes on me are scum looking for an early mislynch. I thought I'd start by trying to see if anyone had a legitimate case.

[Harkonnen97]

texcat, I don't see how people not bothering with repeating what was already said about Martha means that there is no legitimate case on her.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm definitely lynching Hark this game.

[Zyf]

texcat, I don't see how people not bothering with repeating what was already said about Martha means that there is no legitimate case on her.

^^^
Catch-up first dude, it's only 11 pages

[Zyf]

I'm definitely lynching Hark this game.

please elaborate

[Harkonnen97]

BBt, I hope you managed to at least read your role PM.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm definitely lynching Hark this game.

please elaborate

If you read my recent posts you will see what I don't like about Hark's play.

[Harkonnen97]

So you didn't mean VI then, you meant newbie?

I'm not following your thought process at all here. Like, in what way does it effect your read and actively cause it to change?

"VI"

was

my reason for unvoting.

New players shouldn't be read the same was as experienced players. Instead of scumreading them for their behaviour, which to normal standards would be considered 'scummy', you should instead look for inconsistencies in their own logic, in their own little world.

r e a d, you dumbdumb

[Zyf]

I'm definitely lynching Hark this game.

please elaborate

If you read my recent posts you will see what I don't like about Hark's play.

i'm on hark with that one lol you're reading wrong, I'm pretty sure

[Io]

There's nothing to be biased about though as I haven't played with either you or Martha so it's not like I automatically dislike you 2.
And yeah that's still the point though. Martha has been flip-flopping their read on you as you flip-flop on voting them or not.

It's not just with me though
It's with literally everyone fucking else
Her

non-existent

flip-flopping on me is a direct consequence of my read flip-flopping on her, and ALL her reads were based on their thoughts on her. your reasoning therefore makes no sense

I am not following your line of thought at all at this point.
I'm not even clear on your current read of Martha right now. Are you saying that Martha is scum for only having opinions based on what people thing of her like a huge "well your scum for scumreading me" argument and thus I am wrong for calling her scum for a different reason? Because the reason you gave for my reasoning making no sense isn't townie either as it basically is the same reason I gave only you broaden it to apply to her entire reads list when I was just saying she was scummy for the read on you specifically which is inconsistent.

this is a problem of you associating me with her as scummy
I'm not scum with her just because her read on me changed and my read on her changed
it's not a problem with her play specifically to me, thus you shouldn't be scumreading me for it.
It's a terrible reason.

What IS your read on me and why, at this point?

OK I guess admittedly I may be wrong that both of you are scum, but it was more that mutual flip-flopping looks more suspicious than single party flip-floppy.
I would simply have just taken a note about you flip-flopping on weather or not you should vote Martha is it was just you doing so, but Martha also doing it is where I start to have a problem with it.
Town should not really be flip-flopping a ton unless they find out they were just completely wrong on a subject, but the rate at which you 2 both flip-flopped, on each other none the less, is what is suspicious.

One person being a townie that is indecisive would be explainable as just how that person is, but when 2 people flip-flop on each other it starts to look like they are just unsure on weather or not they should bus their partner.
That's where I stand.
So yes, I do think you are scum, and it is because of your interactions with Martha that I find you suspicious by associations.
Now this suspicious is mutual, so it is not a one way thing like if Tex flipped red then you must also flip red or if you flipped green then Tex could still be scummy. It's more read that I believe you both to be the same alignment as of right now and I don't think that alignment is town.
However Tex's introduction comment on itself looks scummy so I would say Tex does look to be more scummy than you, but I still think you 2 are the same alignment, though I would prefer to lynch Tex over you now rather than before where I was fine with either of you. Tex is just a tad more scummy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, let's take this a step at a time.

You think Martha was a VI. You think that this is not-alignment-indicative and she could still be town or scum. Yet, this was very clearly your reasoning for unvoting Martha, despite it being something that is non-alignment indicative to you.

Therefore, the scum read should have remained as something that is not-alignment-indicative to you should not have effected your read.

Explain.

[Zyf]

There's nothing to be biased about though as I haven't played with either you or Martha so it's not like I automatically dislike you 2.
And yeah that's still the point though. Martha has been flip-flopping their read on you as you flip-flop on voting them or not.

It's not just with me though
It's with literally everyone fucking else
Her

non-existent

flip-flopping on me is a direct consequence of my read flip-flopping on her, and ALL her reads were based on their thoughts on her. your reasoning therefore makes no sense

I am not following your line of thought at all at this point.
I'm not even clear on your current read of Martha right now. Are you saying that Martha is scum for only having opinions based on what people thing of her like a huge "well your scum for scumreading me" argument and thus I am wrong for calling her scum for a different reason? Because the reason you gave for my reasoning making no sense isn't townie either as it basically is the same reason I gave only you broaden it to apply to her entire reads list when I was just saying she was scummy for the read on you specifically which is inconsistent.

this is a problem of you associating me with her as scummy
I'm not scum with her just because her read on me changed and my read on her changed
it's not a problem with her play specifically to me, thus you shouldn't be scumreading me for it.
It's a terrible reason.

What IS your read on me and why, at this point?

OK I guess admittedly I may be wrong that both of you are scum, but it was more that mutual flip-flopping looks more suspicious than single party flip-floppy.
I would simply have just taken a note about you flip-flopping on weather or not you should vote Martha is it was just you doing so, but Martha also doing it is where I start to have a problem with it.
Town should not really be flip-flopping a ton unless they find out they were just completely wrong on a subject, but the rate at which you 2 both flip-flopped, on each other none the less, is what is suspicious.

One person being a townie that is indecisive would be explainable as just how that person is, but when 2 people flip-flop on each other it starts to look like they are just unsure on weather or not they should bus their partner.
That's where I stand.
So yes, I do think you are scum, and it is because of your interactions with Martha that I find you suspicious by associations.
Now this suspicious is mutual, so it is not a one way thing like if Tex flipped red then you must also flip red or if you flipped green then Tex could still be scummy. It's more read that I believe you both to be the same alignment as of right now and I don't think that alignment is town.
However Tex's introduction comment on itself looks scummy so I would say Tex does look to be more scummy than you, but I still think you 2 are the same alignment, though I would prefer to lynch Tex over you now rather than before where I was fine with either of you. Tex is just a tad more scummy.

I flip-flop as town all the fucking time so deal with it
that's like my number one meta thing that people think I'm scummy for
have some meta (from beginning of day 1, mostly) http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67932
i can show you some more in like a week or so but [ongoing]

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can we not quote walls.

Thanks.

[Zyf]

VI doesn't mean bad townie. It means bad player.

oh this

do VI's have to be town

[Zyf]

Can we not quote walls.

Thanks.

lol thor will love talking to you

[Harkonnen97]

OK, let's take this a step at a time.

You think Martha was a VI. You think that this is not-alignment-indicative and she could still be town or scum. Yet, this was very clearly your reasoning for unvoting Martha, despite it being something that is non-alignment indicative to you.

Therefore, the scum read should have remained as something that is not-alignment-indicative to you should not have effected your read.

Explain.

>game starts
>martha starts scumming up the thread
>i vote martha
>martha keeps scumming up the thread
>i realize martha is a VI
>i realize that i should take a different approach into reading her
>i unvote her

BBT, this is the last post I am going to make regarding the subject. I am sick of repeating the same thing.

[texcat]

Finished thru p5....

I don't like artificially ending RVS like that and it's a pretty dang illogical reason to push

The only real reason to get on is to create a bw

Why is it an awesome wagon?

Because it's a bandwagon, and I want to force one to "artificially" end RVS.

How does RVS end when left in the wild and untouched by man and his artificial ways?

I'm not sure I understand this. Does a bandwagon automatically end RVS? I always just thought it ended when people found legitimate reasons for their votes.

When Martha flips scum I'm up for lynching Zyf straight after.

Really? Stringing pre-flip lynches together at post 40? I'm going to assume this was a joke, cause I know you're better than this, BBT.

VOTE: Martha
Not a fan of Martha so far

Hmm...maybe not Loop.

Looking like a Hark/Thor scumteam

...what are the odds?

UNVOTE: Loopdan
VOTE: Hark

I am interested in how you came to that conclusion so quickly. What makes you think that?

Wow. I really dislike this post. Naru jumps on the bandwagon without much comment, but questions Penquin about the speed of his cnclusions and vote.

@Martha is this your second Mafia game? Do you have experience off-site?

This is an alt account and I'm much more playing off-site.

Anyways, I would seriously want to be replaced since I hate myself

Ugh.

VOTE: Thor665

?? I have a slight town lean on Thor because he's questioned Naru:

Not a fan of Martha so far

Why not?

@Naru - if you ducked this question on purpose, let me know, otherwise I'll keep repeating it.

I am a solid fan of the Martha wagon now, serious vote.

Hark is a town read.

@Hark - you should hop back to this wagon, her replace out was so fake it didn't even last half a day, c'mon now.

[Io]

VI doesn't mean bad townie. It means bad player.

oh this

do VI's have to be town

So the wiki says a VI is "slang for a player who seems to habitually say or do the wrong things, then not understand the consequences of saying them. Most of the time, this tendency is due to inexperience with the game. Other times, it is due to poor intelligence or social skills on the part of the player. Still other times, the person saying these wrong things really is scum."
The definition implies they are townies saying the wrong things, but can still be scum. The last sentence basically saying that people accused of being a VI could be scum faking being a VI which again implies VI is supposed to mean bad town.

Though he at least as the reason for a VI right as VI's are used as scum to push mislynches.

[Zyf]

aight

[texcat]

Finished the first read thru. I still want to look thru a few ISO's.

I'm going to make a more meaningful post when I get back home and not just phone posting as I read, but honestly Martha and Zyf are both looking like a scum team to me. I'll post actual quotes of why when I get home, but looking at their reads of each other they are so flip-floppy. Zyf goes back and forth of voting Martha and Martha goes from town reading him for not voting on her wagon, to a not very clear read but still gives off the sense that Martha doesn't like Zyf in 85 as she calls him just a sheep, and switches to defending him in the more recent 115.
If it was just one going back and forth on reads it would be suspicious, but both of them doing it on each other looks very scummy.

VOTE: Martha
Because they are the most voted one and I see both as scum and it doesn't matter to me which is lynched first.

I find the flip-flops to be more of a town tell.

No.

Do you understand the term pocketing?

No. Can you explain? Is it like cuddling?

I'll hammer myself

Scum-claim.

Really?? I still think you're better than this. Someone so frustrated that they subbed out, threatened to self hammer, and you think it's a scum claim?
VOTE: BBT

texcat, I don't see how people not bothering with repeating what was already said about Martha means that there is no legitimate case on her.

OK. Except that I know she's town. There may be a legitimate case, but it's still a mislynch. And on read thru, I didn't see much of a case.

[Thor665]

And I have nothing to defend.

You've replaced out, so it doesn't totally matter - but I want to point out, that at this stage, yes, you had people posting actual cases against you.
Naru had literally just posted one before you posted this. You were being blind either intentionally or naturally.

I think I'm the only one openly resisting it. Zyf put her at L-1, so he doesn't count as resistant. Loop was basically catching up.

Zyf assuredly counts as defense, and Loop was defending her also.
It's also a duck of a question, you're acting like lack of defense equates to town (which is already a shaky reality, for example, I've defended Hark, I'm town, so it has no bearing on him being scum - ergo the tell is empty) and then choosing to rule out yourself and others without actually clarifying how much defense is needed.

It's not hard to see she's lynchbait. I don't even know why you're questioning this, you're a competent player AFAIK. If you're town you should see that Martha's wagon was scumdriven .

Who are the scum, and what makes them scum?

His approach seems to be to actually understand what's going on. His questions are reasonable. It's super early, but the tone of his questioning seems different from when I played with him and he was scum.

I think that is expressly only because I haven't questioned you yet.
I don't think I'm a bad enough player that my questioning nature changes when I'm scum.

Nope. Frustrated newbtown.

Well...for starters, byher own admission she wasn't new.
But even if she was new (which is factually untrue) what prevents her from being frustrated newbscum in your eyes?
Really want an answer here.

Actually, I'd like to ask everyone:

Is there anyone who thinks that Martha WAS NOT a VI?

Since I was voting her, by definition - no, I don't think she was a VI.
Since she openly admitted to playing dumb - yes, I think she would classify as a VI if town.
I don't see what prevents a bad player from getting a scum PM though - if you have info I lack, let me know.

Was Martha a newbie or is that some alt?

She was both an alt, and not a newbie.

And can someone give me a quick summary of the case on her/me?

For me it is summed up as;

Awkward reaction to pressure.
Then AtE mega-plosion.
Fake replace out vibe (which apparently was true fake out vibe).
Then continued AtE and open failure to do anything at all.

In a brief nutshell - she never scumhunted, openly claimed intentional bad play as the reason for all her failures, and chose to deflect every question asked of her in a fairly clear attempt to avoid having to answer how she was forming thoughts.
That meant she was trying to play in a way that would preclude reading her off actions.
Which makes her either scum, or an unreasonable town.
Which makes her Day 1 lynch food.

Can we not quote walls.

Thanks.

lol thor will love talking to you

Actually I agree with that - his stated complaint is about someone quoting a wall of text to answer a single question in the wall.
I find that silly and sloppy also.

I'm not sure I understand this. Does a bandwagon automatically end RVS? I always just thought it ended when people found legitimate reasons for their votes.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _Your_Vote

[Zyf]

there is little difference between a wall and a long list of responses for me in terms of having to scroll for ages just to respond to the 1 part i need to respond to


but that's irrelevant so let's stop now

I am thoroughly confused as to who's scummy at this point other than martha, anyone have something to convince me?
VOTE: texcat

L-1 and I will come to your house and kick you in the shin if you lolhammer I swear

[Harkonnen97]

Not_Mafia are you lurking or are you scum?

[texcat]

We haven't heard much from Karnos or Penguin either, have we?

And I almost want to vote Zyf just for the giant letters. No need to scream, dude.