Open 654 | Surrealism - Game over

[Gamma Emerald]

@Mod can we get a VC?

[Something_Smart]

Sorry guys I meant to post yesterday but I had stuff to do.

@Zach: You say I "jumped on my own counterwagon", when in fact

I was the one to truly start it

(I don't remember why TheJester voted him, but I was the one who started to really push it for sure.).

Gamma you are really not making this easier for me

Though I do really like Aubrey's and BlackStar's responses to this.

For the record I don't like this wagon right now and if anything want Dunnstral to post his reads. It's not that he's a scum impossibility to me, but that the lynch Gamma crowd has suddenly had a convenient revelation that would prompt the wagon switch at the same time and no one is addressing that. Oh, oh, because there's no opposition to the lynch it's so opportunistic and suddenly all of you want to switch?

w o w

, how convenient!

Does no one care? Or are you not caring on purpose? Quite fucking obviously there are strings being pulled.

I agree that I'd like reads from Dunnstral. But I don't see at all why you think there's some evil mastermind behind the shift; Dunn is probably the better wagon, and people are consolidating on it for deadline.

That is the main factor. The other one is I don't actually have a game with Scum Dunnstral, well technically, but I'm very certain he plays very similar as both alignments.

If you have potentially enlightening meta on Dunnstral, by all means share it. (Although this assertion can't possibly be completely true.)

Gamma

himself

hopped on his fucking counterwagon with no shame.

Given the way Gamma's been playing, I find it highly likely that he would do this regardless of alignment.

I don't know why people are giving me shit about still wanting to lynch my probably top scumread. Like he should have stopped being scum to me or something. Get the fuck out of here. Sorry guys, I don't fucking make up SRs when convenient to me. I felt strongly about Mimikyu when I voted him. I still feel strongly about it now. If you don't care then say so.

We're not lynching Mimikyu today. (We weren't when I was going to post this yesterday, and we definitely aren't now.)

I'm actually starting to dislike Zach in #590. He's blamed Dunn for tunnelling him but all he does at this point is talk about Dunn and use it as an excuse not to talk about other stuff. But then he follows with a pretty good point on BTD in #593 so I don't know.

What you're not familiar with is that the norm for myself and Funnstral is to argue for a fuckton of pages and have people bitch at us. I tried to detract from that this game but eventually gave in to the relentless stream of shit. It's my fragile human soul. I can only take so much.

Of the people on Gamma's wagon, if I had to name someone suspicious, it's Jester based on that catch-up, but I'll wait for him to finish it to say what I have to say. The whole Aubrey situation is fucking bizarre because when I state an opinion based on my perception and not even attack or push, I'm in the wrong.

What didn't you like about Jester's catchup?

It might be that Fix-it Felix avatar that has my emotions going haywire, but I don't see the fuss about S_S. It looks like he's been shooting straight to me from here.

hehehehehe Fix-it Felix is my spirit animal.

Thinking two votes on you puts you closer to a lynch than five on someone else puts them is the most fundamental of all scumtells.

Uhh...no?

But it was odd.

Ari sums up my thoughts perfectly again lol

Ok I'm pretty sure Ari's scum. More thoughts in a few hours.

I want to see this.

Does a Zach/Dunn scumteam ping for anyone?

It seems like a stretch based on surface activity, but it somehow makes sense to me. Dunn tunnels Zach because he always tunnels Zach, but doesn't seem interested in actually convincing anyone to follow along. Zach calls out Dunn because he always calls out Dunn, but doesn't seem to know where to place himself with regard to the wagon---says it's a bad wagon but won't say he's townreading or even null on its target. (Surely lynching scum is more valuable than forming wagons in the most virtuous manner?) Zach has been disdaining the Gamma wagon, but when the alternative is Dunn that pisses him off even more. This could be scum looking for a way to save his buddy after inadvertently closing off his two most viable means (pushing a townread on Dunn, or pushing a scumread on his counterwagon).

I'm more spitballing here than saying "this is what's going on," but I find it compelling enough that I'd like to bounce it off y'all.

I have a feeling that a Zach/Dunn team would be engaging in scum theater extraordinaire.

Okay so actually I read this post

@Zach: You say I "jumped on my own counterwagon", when in fact

I was the one to truly start it

(I don't remember why TheJester voted him, but I was the one who started to really push it for sure.).

I don't think anyone got on it because of anything that you said

and I liked it and thought it felt like a towny trying-to-get-the-facts-out-there observation, but I figured that it probably wasn't that strong of evidence. But then BlackStar did the same thing again:

It was because of Gamma, not because of you

Which I also really like.

If one scum dies, why would you look for the 1 ally hiding in everyone?

Instead of the 2 hiding together

You're just more likely to find scum and better off finding the one (also, even if you find the partner, you're making one side's pr's useless, which doesn't happen if killing 1 from each faction)

That all sounds weird but basically, if one scum flips don't even look for his partner, just kill anyone that's scummy

I think it's more along the lines of,

the other scumteam

is looking for his partner, so you don't want to make that easy for them.

These are my reads. They are not strictly ordered by strength, but by order ISOed in each grouping

Spoiler: Reads

Town:

Aubrey

: He has been doing very good at scumhunting, although he’s been mostly focused on me and BTD6, so that’s something to consider.

Hi Im Yakko

: He’s been very blunt and I feel like he’s town for that. However, voting for someone before you are completely caught up is dumb.

Mimikyu

: Has been doing some

very

intense scumhunting, I feel.

BlackStar

: He’s been very confrontational, to the extent that he seems very towny.

SS

: Other than the failed attempt at pressure, I think his posts are pretty good. Has been asking some very good questions.
Null:

BTD6_maker

: I get a whole lot of blah from his posts. Want to see more.

Zach

: I’ve seen towny and scummy posts from this one.
Scum:

MeowMix/Vaxkiller

:VaxKiller hasn’t really done anything alignment indicative, so I have to go by MeowMix, and

holy crap his ISO is bad

. Asking to be best friends with Umlaut is very scummy to me. I also don’t like how he kept focusing on me and BTD6.

TheJester

: Has he had

no

scumreads other than Skold’s slot? Also, catch-up posts don’t really feel fresh, and that has been a sign of scum trying to avoid confrontation before, so there’s that.

Aristophanes

: Seems very passive and neutral. Do not like.

Umlaut

: Many of his posts feel like he is trying to keep the town quiet.

Dunnstral

: As I’ve said before, his early posting was very erratic, and he’s been very opportunistic in his later posts.

After my searching, I feel Umlaut is my strongest scumread,
VOTE: Umlaut
BTW, this was written last night, so it does not include observations from today.

These reads are actually really good. However @Gamma why would you try to start a deadline wagon on Umlaut rather than staying on the already established Dunn wagon?

I could lynch Gamma but the lack of counterwagons bothers me.

I'm the counterwagon

And the scum teams are teams of 2 so there'd only be 1 person working with him

Therefore worrying about counterwagon or a lack thereof is useless.

?????
I don't understand how those are related.

Well, I hate answering for others, as I did initially. However being only 2 members per scumteam, for a counterwagon on scum to be driven by scum, that mamber would have to defend his teammate very hard. That one would not do that and risk the associatives is reasonably assumed. Therefore counterwagons are NAI for either those on them, or those they fall onto and off of.

Also, preflip scumteam's are stupid and should not be assumed. Especially on D1! I've seen some of this and find it ridiculous.

This post is obviously coaching. Ari and Gamma are scumbuddies guyz!!1!

[Gamma Emerald]

I think Umlaut is scum more than anyone else. I've seen deadline wagons happen.

[Something_Smart]

How often have they landed on scum?

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't know how many. I'd like to specify about the one I've done, but I'm not sure if it violates the ongoing games rule.

[Something_Smart]

I guess it's different in multiball, but in singleball, it seems that usually if a deadline flash wagon occurs, the scum will have enough influence to shift it off of them.

I think if we attempt an Umlaut deadline wagon here, it'll fail, and you'll probably end up being lynched.

[Gamma Emerald]

Well I'm most sure of Umlaut being scum, so I'm not changing unless there's no time and there's a wagon on one of my scumreads.

[Aubrey]

Well I'm most sure of Umlaut being scum, so I'm not changing unless there's no time and there's a wagon on one of my scumreads.

Can you provide a better case other than "he's trying to keep the town quite." By better I mean a more in depth case on why he's your scummiest read.

[Gamma Emerald]

@Gamma

Is your name Blackstar?

I explained this in my last post, it's the need to strawman and doubtcast on Zach instead of just saying "It wasn't really a strong read, drop it."

Firstly, if everyone thinks you have a fairly strong scumread when you don't, maybe the problem is with something you wrote and not that everyone else sucks at reading. But even setting that aside, his response seeks to deflect Zach's actual statement which is that Aubrey's entrance didn't justify any sort of scumread at all,

let alone

a strong read, and that his looks like an opportunistic push on someone with a slightly unusual style.

Instead of answering that, he says Zach is falsely accusing him of going aggro on Aubrey (a much easier claim to rebut than what Zach actually said), every post Zach has made is nonsense (would you like to back that up, BlackStar?), and hints that he is arguing in bad faith. Then he says we're all stopping him from scumhunting as if the current conversation has eliminated his ability to read or write anything else.

All of this reads as if he doesn't have a real response but feels the need to respond.

VOTE: Mimikyu

This is a good vote for two reasons.

First, he's scummy. His stated positions are all over the place. He makes me his top scumread based apparently on one vote on Jester (this is the only reason he's giving, and when asked to explain his read he says "look at my posts"). He thinks that Aubrey is scummy, Blackstar is scummy for scumreading Aubrey, that anyone attacking Blackstar is scummy. He's eager to argue about minutiae (refused to let me drop the topic of "is rejecting townreads a towntell") but reluctant to sell his actual reads.

(Interestingly, his reversal on Aubrey and scumread on MeowMix both came right after they said they had a problem with Gamma. It's obviously too early to seriously hunt for associations but I want to note this for future reference.)

Secondly, he's given a lot of general opinions on good and bad ways to scumhunt, and if he's scum I wouldn't be surprised if some of these "bad ways" are the ones that would point to him

or his teammate.

-----

On an off-topic note, anyone who finds Zach abrasive can't have played many games here. I had to go back to see what you were talking about.

-----

Pedit:

Gamma, why did you quote my post there? Your question has nothing to do with it really.

Also, no I don't.

Well now that I check again, I realize I only get that from one post. He has been really aggro all Day though, so my read still stands. If you want I can quote posts that seem aggro.

[Aubrey]

:/ Damn ya'll use a whole lot of terms that we don't use back on Paradiselost. If aggro means aggressive then no.

[Gamma Emerald]

Thought the multiquote had deactivated, whoops.

[Ümläüt]

I disagree. You should hunt for the partner so you have one less nightkill to worry about.

I agree with this actually, but I think that will come naturally from just trying to lynch the guy who's most likely to be scum. (When looking for the partner we have associations to help us, so in principle they should be easier to find than someone on the other team.)

Also, stop making up reasons to scumread me, I'm sure you can find something I actually did instead of "trying to keep people quiet."

Pedit:

Oh, you replied to Aubrey. So... it's because I wanted other people not to answer the question I asked Blackstar before he did. And this made me your top scumread? Okay then.

[Creature]

Votecount 1.14

[0] BTD6_Maker
[1] Mimikyu - Zachstralkita
[0] Something_Smart
[0] Vaxkiller
[0] Aubrey

[5] Gamma Emerald - BTD6_Maker, Dunnstral, BlackStar, Aubrey, Ümläüt [L-2]

[0] hi im Yakko
[0] BlackStar
[1] Zachstralkita - hi im Yakko
[2] Dunnstral - Something_Smart, Aristophanes
[1] The_Jester - Vaxkiller
[2] Ümläüt - Mimikyu, Gamma Emerald
[0] Aristophanes

[0] Nolynch

Not voting: The_Jester

There are 13 players alive, 7 votes is the majority.

Deadline: (expired on 2016-09-27 13:00:00)

[Ümläüt]

If you want I can quote posts that seem aggro.

If you actually wanted to push a lynch on me you'd case me without waiting for a prompt.

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Mimikyu

This is a good vote for two reasons.

First, he's scummy. His stated positions are all over the place. He makes me his top scumread based apparently on one vote on Jester (this is the only reason he's giving, and when asked to explain his read he says "look at my posts"). He thinks that Aubrey is scummy, Blackstar is scummy for scumreading Aubrey, that anyone attacking Blackstar is scummy. He's eager to argue about minutiae (refused to let me drop the topic of "is rejecting townreads a towntell") but reluctant to sell his actual reads.

(Interestingly, his reversal on Aubrey and scumread on MeowMix both came right after they said they had a problem with Gamma. It's obviously too early to seriously hunt for associations but I want to note this for future reference.)

Secondly, he's given a lot of general opinions on good and bad ways to scumhunt, and if he's scum I wouldn't be surprised if some of these "bad ways" are the ones that would point to him

or his teammate.

-----

On an off-topic note, anyone who finds Zach abrasive can't have played many games here. I had to go back to see what you were talking about.

-----

Pedit:

Gamma, why did you quote my post there? Your question has nothing to do with it really.

Also, no I don't.

Flippantly attacks me here, I don't know exactly what this indicates but it feels scummy.

Sorry I actually misread that first part as talking about Dunnstral before. MeowMix may have had a new take, but it was one that was sure to go nowhere I think. No one else had expressed interest in anything close to a Gamma vote. Just felt like adding to something knowing that it would likely be brushed off.

You heard it here, folks. After 72 hours it's too late to bring in a new read.

Being flippant again.

Can you post a reads list, Umlaut?

Forgot about this. I'm phone posting now so this is off the cuff.

Town:

Zach, Meow, Aubrey

Null:

Jester, Dunn, Skold, Ari, SS, BTD

Scum:

Gamma, Mimikyu, Blackstar

Not part of the original case, but half of his reads are null. Having a lot of nulls is a scumtell.

[Ümläüt]

Flippantly attacks me here, I don't know exactly what this indicates but it feels scummy.

How is that an attack

or

flippant?

[Aubrey]

I agree with umlaut. It's not an attack, it's a question and answer to your question. I also had a similar list of nulls that he had at that time as well if I remember correctly. I'm not buying that.

[Gamma Emerald]

I also had a similar list of nulls that he had at that time as well if I remember correctly. I'm not buying that.

I may have to rethink my read on you then. Were your other reads similar to his?

[Aristophanes]

half of his reads are null. Having a lot of nulls is a scumtell.

Having a lot of null after flips is dubious, but D1 is rather normal. Also, having either a lot of town or scum reads can also be a scum tell, depending on the player.

I don't think Ümläüt is gonna happen today based on what you've got. JS.

[Aubrey]

Dumb question, why would scum try and start a new bandwagon now instead of just latching onto a campaign that already has a backing and support? This seems like such a bad scum move if he is in fact scum.

I think I'm going to UNVOTE: Gamma for now.

Pre-edit. Wow Gamma. I'll deal with that question when I'm at home on my computer. Just how long did you take to put that list together again?

[Gamma Emerald]

Also, it may not be an attack, but sure is flippant. The "also, no I don't" part is what feels flippant to me.
My reads took about an hour to prepare, though most of that was ISOing. I wasn't able to post it until the next day due to not being able to use the computer it was on.

[Ümläüt]

Dumb question, why would scum try and start a new bandwagon now instead of just latching onto a campaign that already has a backing and support? This seems like such a bad scum move if he is in fact scum.

I assume you're talking about Dunn since that's the only other major wagon we've had recently. It actually would make sense if he's trying to get townpoints for not being 'opportunistic' and expects Dunn to flip town. It's actually a lot safer as scum to push on someone who isn't likely to flip anytime soon.

Personally, if I were in his shoes as town I'd happily vote my lesser scumread if they were more lynchable.

[Aristophanes]

Dumb question, why would scum try and start a new bandwagon now instead of just latching onto a campaign that already has a backing and support? This seems like such a bad scum move if he is in fact scum.

I assume you're talking about Dunn since that's the only other major wagon we've had recently. It actually would make sense if he's trying to get townpoints for not being 'opportunistic' and expects Dunn to flip town. It's actually a lot safer as scum to push on someone who isn't likely to flip anytime soon.

Personally, if I were in his shoes as town I'd happily vote my lesser scumread if they were more lynchable.

Aubrey is obviously talking about Gamma's vote on you. Come on man!

Does that change your answer?

[Gamma Emerald]

They're talking about the same thing. Basically, I changed my vote from the leading wagon, Aubrey thinks that's towny because there's no reason to do that as scum, while Umlaut thinks it's scummy because if I was scum and Dunn was town, then that could earn me towncred.

[Dunnstral]

These are my reads. They are not strictly ordered by strength, but by order ISOed in each grouping

Spoiler: Reads

Town:

Aubrey

: He has been doing very good at scumhunting, although he’s been mostly focused on me and BTD6, so that’s something to consider.

Hi Im Yakko

: He’s been very blunt and I feel like he’s town for that. However, voting for someone before you are completely caught up is dumb.

Mimikyu

: Has been doing some

very

intense scumhunting, I feel.

BlackStar

: He’s been very confrontational, to the extent that he seems very towny.

SS

: Other than the failed attempt at pressure, I think his posts are pretty good. Has been asking some very good questions.
Null:

BTD6_maker

: I get a whole lot of blah from his posts. Want to see more.

Zach

: I’ve seen towny and scummy posts from this one.
Scum:

MeowMix/Vaxkiller

:VaxKiller hasn’t really done anything alignment indicative, so I have to go by MeowMix, and

holy crap his ISO is bad

. Asking to be best friends with Umlaut is very scummy to me. I also don’t like how he kept focusing on me and BTD6.

TheJester

: Has he had

no

scumreads other than Skold’s slot? Also, catch-up posts don’t really feel fresh, and that has been a sign of scum trying to avoid confrontation before, so there’s that.

Aristophanes

: Seems very passive and neutral. Do not like.

Umlaut

: Many of his posts feel like he is trying to keep the town quiet.

Dunnstral

: As I’ve said before, his early posting was very erratic, and he’s been very opportunistic in his later posts.

After my searching, I feel Umlaut is my strongest scumread,
VOTE: Umlaut
BTW, this was written last night, so it does not include observations from today.

These reads are actually really good. However @Gamma why would you try to start a deadline wagon on Umlaut rather than staying on the already established Dunn wagon?

Really? Because he's factually and objectively wrong:

Aubrey:
1.Aubrey hasn't been "very focused on gamma and BTD6" in fact he barely even talks about BTD6, and has been on me for most of the game (hint: never made a giant wall of text for gamma)
2. "Very good at scumhunting" When you say they were on yourself and the lurker all game? And nobodies flipped?

Hi Im Yakko:
3. OK, I've been very blunt too. Why has this ignored for me, but is a reason to townread Hi Im Yakko?

Mimikyu:
4. I wouldn't say he's been doing "

Very

intense scumhunting" (because he wasn't

BlackStar:
5. See #3. OK, I've been very Confrontational too. Why has this ignored for me, but is a reason to townread BlackStar?

SS:
6. Please point out these very good questions.

BTD6_maker:
7. Note that this guy spent around an hour on this reads list to write "I get a whole lot of blah from his posts. Want to see more."

Zach:
8. Note that this guy spent around an hour on this reads list to write "I’ve seen towny and scummy posts from this one." like what

Meowmix/Vaxkiller:
9. "Asking to be best friends with Umlaut is very scummy to me" And why is that...? How does that add up?
10. "I also don’t like how he kept focusing on me and BTD6." LOL, but you JUST townread Aubrey for "doing a very good job at scumhunting" when in your OWN words you said he focused on you and BTD6 (even though untrue.) So, wow

TheJester:
11. "Catch-up posts feel fresh" Don't expect you to even know what that means, let alone explain it

Aristophanes:
12. Hypocrite

Umlaut:
13. "Many of his posts feel like he is trying to keep the town quiet." Please point out these many posts and what this means

Dunnstral
14: Cognitive Dissonance/You have no reason to switch your votee off me from your story thus far/See #3 and #5



But please, tell me why you thought the reads list was good.