Newbie 1741 - Game Over

[aronagrundy]

Aronagrundy

Unlike Empoof and Titus I liked the fact that arona tried to push Shaddowez earlier. Not only because I shared his concern over Shaddowez but also because pushing suspects that are not directly in the spotlight is a good thing to do during the day. I’m less a fan of subsequent play. I called him on not revoting after removing vote from Shaddow. As I tried to explain later on, it’s not so much the fact that he didn’t cast a new vote than the fact he felt the need to quickly remove vote from Shaddow when there was no urgent reason to do so without having another suspect in line. I noted it as “cultural” because nobody else seemed bothered by that while it’s a big thing on my home forum. Point being that scum do not want to antagonize people too much and are more careful with where their vote stand. Then there is the vote on nn30, which, as Titus has already noted, comes at a very opportunistic time to move the focus off algebra, especially when you consider that arona didn’t mention algebra at all in the post where he voted nn while he previously said he suspected algebra (see the exchange I had with arona on the matter). There are 2 additional points: first the interpretation of algebra’s #172. I’ll wait on arona’s (and Empoof’s) answer on that one but the fact arona used this flawed logic

(algebra/arona town Titus scum

) to push the accusation on Empoof doesn’t sit right with me. Second is the lengthy defense arona puts: I need to reread those with more attention but I do not share Empoof’s view and find those posts overly defensive. SO I’ve come from leaning Town to leaning scum on arona, with algebra as a very likely partner. Very unlikely to be nn30’s partner IMO.

I have explained before why I (INITIALLY) agreed with post 172. Titus was pushing algebra/myself as the scumteam. Algebra responds (right after I call out titus on her bizarre accusation that algebra is scumreading me) by saying that if nn30 is scum (meaning that algebra/myself can't be the scumteam), then titus should be put under suspicion. I shared this initial reaction. nn30 responded to 172 by saying it was illogical and I disagreed because I agreed with it at the time. Also can you clarify the bolded part because there's a symbol not showing up on my computer. I've said before that I think titus is town now.

I mean, if I come off as overly defensive it's because I think titus's case against me is wrong (as you yourself have pointed out, she's making stuff up about my relationship with algebra). Like I'd rather not get mislynched. Also I've never been seriously accused of being scum when I'm town before so there's that.

[aronagrundy]

Also because I keep on having to repeat myself

[Dunhallym]

Aronagrundy

Unlike Empoof and Titus I liked the fact that arona tried to push Shaddowez earlier. Not only because I shared his concern over Shaddowez but also because pushing suspects that are not directly in the spotlight is a good thing to do during the day. I’m less a fan of subsequent play. I called him on not revoting after removing vote from Shaddow. As I tried to explain later on, it’s not so much the fact that he didn’t cast a new vote than the fact he felt the need to quickly remove vote from Shaddow when there was no urgent reason to do so without having another suspect in line. I noted it as “cultural” because nobody else seemed bothered by that while it’s a big thing on my home forum. Point being that scum do not want to antagonize people too much and are more careful with where their vote stand. Then there is the vote on nn30, which, as Titus has already noted, comes at a very opportunistic time to move the focus off algebra, especially when you consider that arona didn’t mention algebra at all in the post where he voted nn while he previously said he suspected algebra (see the exchange I had with arona on the matter). There are 2 additional points: first the interpretation of algebra’s #172. I’ll wait on arona’s (and Empoof’s) answer on that one but the fact arona used this flawed logic

(algebra/arona town Titus scum

) to push the accusation on Empoof doesn’t sit right with me. Second is the lengthy defense arona puts: I need to reread those with more attention but I do not share Empoof’s view and find those posts overly defensive. SO I’ve come from leaning Town to leaning scum on arona, with algebra as a very likely partner. Very unlikely to be nn30’s partner IMO.

I have explained before why I (INITIALLY) agreed with post 172. Titus was pushing algebra/myself as the scumteam. Algebra responds (right after I call out titus on her bizarre accusation that algebra is scumreading me) by saying that if nn30 is scum (meaning that algebra/myself can't be the scumteam), then titus should be put under suspicion. I shared this initial reaction. nn30 responded to 172 by saying it was illogical and I disagreed because I agreed with it at the time. Also can you clarify the bolded part because there's a symbol not showing up on my computer. I've said before that I think titus is town now.

I mean, if I come off as overly defensive it's because I think titus's case against me is wrong (as you yourself have pointed out, she's making stuff up about my relationship with algebra). Like I'd rather not get mislynched. Also I've never been seriously accused of being scum when I'm town before so there's that.

algebra says if nn30 is scum then Titus is likely scum because (I guess) Titus's accusation can be seen as a diversion from nn30. nn30 says it's illogical because Titus pushed nn30 for most of the game before. It could be distancing, I think it's unlikely (see post to come). Now your logic is inferring that algebra town = nn30 scum, which is flawed. There is a (admittedly slim) possibility that both algebra and nn30 are town.

[Dunhallym]

Sorry I didn't detail the boded part: algebra/arona scum leads to Titus scum.
I understand that you say you don't believe it now, but you implied that's what algebra meant and I think you make false assumptions (see above).

[Dunhallym]

OK, so this is to explain why at this point I think algebra is the best lynch for today.

Algebra
algebra has posted only one liners and votes so far. The l-1 on Titus was bad. Empoof is right that the warning came within minutes of the votes but I still dislike it based on a previous game from algebra which is just over so can now be discussed (at least that’s how I understand the rules, I hope I’m not wrong): check algebra’s first game. I summarized a great deal of my questions and concerns in #158 so I won’t repeat what I said there. Now, the fact algebra didn’t answer any of my questions is really annoying me: I had already asked most of the questions I raise in #158 in previous posts and made a separate post as I thought algebra could have missed them in the middle of bigger posts. Now, I find his lack of response annoying but to me it also indicates that algebra is not really following the game. Empoof suggests that algebra is a stubborn innocent and arona puts in his defense that he hasn’t changed his attitude after getting many votes. Short posts and “stubborn” attitude seem indeed to be algebra’s style but it doesn’t change the fact that his attitude in this game is anti-town, as arona himself agreed. Now, maybe algebra’s antitown attitude doesn’t make him automatically scum but it’s a question I want answered ASAP as I don’t want the issue to drag until we reach Lylo or Mylo. It’s a mistake I’ve made before and I don’t want to repeat it.

Nn30
I’ve already stated before my points against nn30. I can go over it again if you wish, just not tonight. However, I can see an overeager newb playing this way. Unlike algebra, nn30 gives us material to work with.
Finally there’s one last point and that’s why I mentioned potential partnerships in my previous posts.
Possible partners for algebra are everyone except for Titus and, I think, nn30. I could maybe see more experienced players doing the gamble that was nn30’s vote on algebra, but in the present case I think it’s highly unlikely. I let you judge for yourself if you think I can be algebra’s partner. Most likely IMO is arona but there are other options.
IMO, possible partners for nn30 are Papa Zito, Morning Tweet, Titus and (from the POV of other townies) probably me. I’m town. I think Morning Tweet is likely town. As I said in my previous post, I’d like other’s input on nn30 and Zito’s interaction. Now, nn30 does seem like the sort of player that would follow advice from a more experienced partner, and could have avoided certain mistakes. Which makes me doubt the Zito/nn partnership, and together with the early mess Titus‘s early vote on nn30 created, it also makes me doubt the Titus/nn30 partnership.
So I think algebra is more likely scum than nn30.

[aronagrundy]

Sorry I didn't detail the boded part: algebra/arona scum leads to Titus scum.
I understand that you say you don't believe it now, but you implied that's what algebra meant and I think you make false assumptions (see above).

My original logic was that because titus's case was wrong (and it would be wrong if nn30 flipped scum), then she had a good chance of being scum. I wasn't really thinking about it in the context of the relationship of nn30 and titus. I changed my mind to thinking titus is town regardless of her case being right or not. My case on empoof has a lot to do with titus being town so I'm not sure what you're talking about me pushing this logic of titus being scum.

Of course my assumption (that algebra is saying titus is scum because her case is wrong) could be false, but so could yours (that algebra is saying that titus is distancing herself from nn30). That's why I've asked algebra to clarify what he meant.

Now your logic is inferring that algebra town = nn30 scum, which is flawed. There is a (admittedly slim) possibility that both algebra and nn30 are town.

Explain this further. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't state this anywhere. I think you're referring to the part where I'm trying to explain what I saw as algebra's logic in 172. I meant it as, if nn30 is scum, then algebra and I can't both be scum which doesn't need explanation. This doesn't mean the same as if algebra is town, then nn30 is scum. They could both be town or both could be scum, but I agree that these two possibilities are unlikely and that one of the two is probably scum.

[aronagrundy]

@dun/algebra:

To clarify our different assumptions on page 172, I'm saying that algebra is mostly reacting to titus's push on him/myself, and saying that she's probably scushe's wrong. I assumed this because it came right after me pointing out that algebra has never scumread me. This is how I read it. Perhaps wrongly, because I was personally in the mindframe of "wtf is titus saying." In other words, I'm assuming that 172 was primarily reactionary to titus's case, and you're assuming that it's primarily accusatory of titus and nn30 as a scumteam. I admit that because of my position I never saw it the way you did and that could have been a mistake. I'm not sure if I would go so far as to call it an invalid assumption, though, since the logic behind my assumption (I think) makes sense. This does make nn30 seem less scummy, since he'd be more inclined to interpret 172 the way you did, I suppose. Of course algebra could always clarify what he meant/what he thinks now like I asked him to.

I agree with you that algebra is a liability to town and his lynch would give us information, as well that he would be liability further down the road if we have to go through My/LyLo.
VOTE: algebra

@empoof:

Since post 172 is the hot topic of the day, can you clarify your thoughts on it, and respond to the first paragraph of this post? Namely that nn30's response to 172 might be logical after all?

[aronagrundy]

btw algebra is at L-1

[Titus]

This is a great group of newbies. Please regardless of your alignment or how algebra flips stick around. Both town and scum IMO are putting up one hell of an effort, I can tell that by the sheer detail I need to read.

[algebra]

@dunhallym

yes, gut.
no
everyones town except nn30 and titus
im always an easy target, usually described as a "liability"

now time to pick apart nn30's iso and show how blatantly his play as newb scum is

So here's where my thoughts are right now.

Please chime in if you agree / disagree.

Townie feeling - Dunhallym - entered the game and gave some good analysis on what was going on. This is difficult to do as scum since pretending to do analysis on who is and isn't scum is difficult when you already know the answer.
Townie feeling - Aronagrundy - more of a feeling than anything, but she seems genuine town.

Scummy feeling - Algebra - quick to go along with a lynch vote but isn't offering much in the way of reasoning.

Maybe

because he knows the people he's putting votes on aren't scum.
Scummy feeling - Titus - five pages in and he won't let go of his scum tell on me. Is it so hard to believe that a newbie would think a no lynch is good?
Scummy feeling - Morning Tweet - post 81 was the tell. Read page three up to post 81. Tweet's analysis comes out of nowhere basically. As I said above it's difficult to do analysis as scum, no?

No reads - everyone else.

Whatever happens,

I just want day one to be over. Nothing here is set in stone - I want to see if scum do before I make any concrete conclusions.

put yourself in newbscum shoes, and think: do i want to be an aggressive leader, or a passive follower? hopefully you said passive follower, because that's what nn is doing rn. ive bolded all the parts where he's indecisive/soft stance.

@papa zito - no read because you're talking so much it blurs everything. Remember, I only have RL to compare to - and in RL the most talkative person just means they're experienced. I've been carried by a talkative townie and I've been tricked by a talkative scum as well.

@dunhallym - you're right, it was weird that I left with my vote on papa instead of on someone I felt was scummy.

VOTE: algebra

L-1 I believe.

here he admits he was scummy, and tries to get on dun's good side

@shaddowez @titus why are you voting algebra? Post 48 seems legit to me - lets gather more information before we go into the night.

I ask a question.

Scummy feeling - Algebra - quick to go along with a lynch vote but isn't offering much in the way of reasoning. Maybe because he knows the people he's putting votes on aren't scum.

I answer my own question (since nobody answered it).

VOTE: algebra

I act on that thought.

I don't even understand this.

going to reread titus and reach into my gut and see what i get when i take my hand out

[Titus]

Mod: VC please

There's something hinky with these votes moving fast. I'm going to check my assumptions there.

[Dunhallym]

UNVOTE:
There are a few things I want to answer to and I'd also like to hear more from zito and shadow.

[Xalxe]

Vote Count 1.6

Perhaps you noticed something strange yesterday. And perhaps you have forgotten it.

algebra (3)

: Titus, nn30, aronagrundy

nn30 (3)

: shaddowez, algebra, Empoof

Empoof (1)

: Morning Tweet

Not Voting

: Papa Zito, Dunhallym

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-10-02 15:42:07)

Papa Zito is being prodded.

[Papa Zito]

Hey guys, I'm typically not around on weekends, gonna catch up over lunch today. I didn't think that'd be a problem with a newbie game but holy crap you guys are nuts.

We've got about 6 days left so we'll want to come to a consensus fairly soon. Gotta deal with them claims yaknow.

[Empoof]

Joining the "I need to catch up" family, worked overtime and got 4 hours of sleep with classes starting today... grog.

Hopefully I read up and respond/push today but I might just sleep instead.

Perhaps you noticed something strange yesterday. And perhaps you have forgotten it.

This is basically my life rn

[Papa Zito]

Wendy's french fries pretty good ya'll.

[nn30]

To be honest, all of this detail is pretty overwhelming. I need to make a point of not disappering on weekends. I'll go through and respond to anyone who had a thought directed at me and then see where that takes me.

[Papa Zito]

Welp. That didn't help as much as I'd hoped it would.

I am no longer interested in lynching nn30 though, I think those voters are on the wrong track. Grundy and Big Poof strike me as bros. Algebra's a mess and I see why he's getting flak but I'm super unsure about what he's doing or why. Tweet needs to post more - Don't Let Your Dreams Be Dreams. Shadow's lack of presence continues to be a major concern. I want to throw Titus through a window regardless of her alignment.

I think that's about where I'm at.


Time to start Doing Stuff I guess I'll start here.

@algebra:

Who would you say are your top 3 scumspects? I don't need reasons just a list is cool.

[shaddowez]

Titus, this isn't like you....what's your current read on empoof and Morning Tweet?

@shaddowez
You initially scumread algebra, and now (I assume since you're voting for him) nn30. Have your reads on these two changed at all?

I never stopped scum reading algebra, I had unvoted since he was at L-1 and I didn't want a quickhammer that early in the day (same reason I'm not actually revoting him right now). nn30 still reads somewhat scummy to me, but since I don't see him and algebra as a scum team, I feel less strongly about him being scum.

UNVOTE:

grundy - your recent posts seems to be in a constant state of self-defense, rather than actually trying to scum hunt. Is your vote on algebra in 231 because you actually think he's scum, or because he's antitown? Considering we still have 6 days left, do you think a lynch on not a scum read is useful?

algebra's 234 is to pick apart nn30's ISO, chooses three posts and basically reiterates what others have already said. I really don't see them as a scum team right now, but I suppose it's still possible.

Shadow's lack of presence continues to be a major concern

I'm also generally V/LA on weekends - the last time I posted was Saturday night, which was actually more recent than yours prior to you today. Why is it okay for you to be away, but not me?

[Papa Zito]

I'm also generally V/LA on weekends - the last time I posted was Saturday night, which was actually more recent than yours prior to you today. Why is it okay for you to be away, but not me?

I said presence. AKA you're not doing anything.

I also have double your posts. :3

[shaddowez]

Post count means nothing. i could easily artificially inflate my post count.

[Papa Zito]

You

could

but my point would still stand.

Your approach here is interesting because instead of either taking what I said to heart (and my meaning there is clear let's not play games) and actually doing something you instead try to cast it back at me and paint me as hypocritical. This is pretty classic "avoid the argument; attack the attacker" strategy.

[shaddowez]

You

could

but my point would still stand.

Your approach here is interesting because instead of either taking what I said to heart (and my meaning there is clear let's not play games) and actually doing something you instead try to cast it back at me and paint me as hypocritical. This is pretty classic "avoid the argument; attack the attacker" strategy.

That is clearly not the case, actually.

First of all, I'm here engaging with you now. I was at a doctor's appointment, so I couldn't exactly be long-winded for my past couple of posts. Secondly, you used the word "presence", which means to be present - it has nothing to do with providing content. While that may not be what you meant, it is what you said, and in a forum game the only thing we have to base off of is what you type in and choose to hit the submit button with. Therefore, us being gone for approximately the same timeframe, and you accusing me of not having a "presence", is absolutely hypocritical. Lastly, I did not attempt to attack you in any way - my post count comment was a factual statement, I did not in any way imply that you were artificially inflating your post count. If you'd like to take it that way, you're more than welcome to, but if you intend to misrep my posts you're going to have to try harder than that.

[shaddowez]

And if you're actually interested in what I have to say, engaging with me by asking me questions or commenting on posts I have made would actually be a useful way of doing so, rather than just complaining and saying it's a concern.

[Papa Zito]

You're doing a good job trying to muddy some very clear waters. Let's try this again.

My comment has nothing to do with postcounts or time spent V/LA. My comment was about presence. Which I further clarified as "you're not doing anything." Because you're not. I did ISO dives on everyone in the game and in yours I see a player sitting on the sidelines taking the occasional potshot but not really getting his hands dirty.

As for your second post - I agree that asking you questions or commenting on individual posts would be a way to engage you sure. Looks like I chose not to do that!