Micro 652 - Double Day Unlimited (Over)

[qubixes]

@Quibixes What caused you to unvote creature in 174? You just sort of did it.

I looked more deeply into the two games he linked and figured I didn't have much against creature.

[qubixes]

Apart from the three or so people attacking her I agree she has no heat?

Oh yeah I forgot flubber's swipe. Still, none of these actually wanted her lynched. Do you think she was in any danger at any point?

[Thor665]

I don't think she was in danger of immediate lynch - but I never suggested I did as far as I'm aware?

[qubixes]

Then how do you define taking heat? Because from my perspective she wasn't pressured all that much. By my own definition at least half of the players took more heat than her:

Lowell [lynched]
Malpascp [lynched]
N_M
Flubber
Creature (arguable)
Qubixes (arguable)

I just don't understand why you pick her out as someone who took "an odd amount of heat".

[Thor665]

I define heat as attacks/scum reads.
I will agree a lot of those names took more heat than her, I would disagree that she deserved more heat or that they didn't deserve the heat they got.

[Aeronaut]

Laptop is broken, phone posting. I'll either get it fixed tomorrow Or I'll find a dif comp for now

[ChaosOmega]

Votecount 2.1.02

Flubbernugget (2) - Thor665, Not_Mafia
Thor665 (2) - Not_Mafia, Flubbernugget
qubixes (1) - ecane
Not_Mafia (1) - Flubbernugget
ecane (1) - qubixes

Not Voting (1) - Aeronaut

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Prodding Not_Mafia.

Deadline: (expired on 2016-11-12 08:58:30)

[Not_Mafia]

I do not believe that Thor v Flubber is TvT

[Thor665]

That sort of goes without saying since you're voting both of us.
Why do you think this?

[Flubbernugget]

I've been sick for the last few days so prodge and I might get back to this

[qubixes]

I define heat as attacks/scum reads.
I will agree a lot of those names took more heat than her, I would disagree that she deserved more heat or that they didn't deserve the heat they got.

Uhh.. I think you just said that Lowell's lynch was "lame" (but deserved?), and you defended me from ecane's accusations.. Anyway, that's not really the point I'm trying to make. I have trouble with why you picked her out with these reasons, while:

1. She didn't take a particular large amount of heat.
2. The heat she took doesn't seem overly unfair. I didn't think her entrance was particularly scummy, but I don't think it was a beacon of towniness either.
3. How it makes her town? Both scum and town are going to take "undeserved" heat for things, and we know at least one of the "attackers" flipped town.

One of the things that really concerns me about her is how she has been basically riding her reads from very early Day 1 to now with very little change. Do you disagree? She also seems to be rather focused on a few people (the opposite of casting a wide net as town). Do you disagree?

@ecane: FYI, my vote wasn't random.

[Thor665]

Uhh.. I think you just said that Lowell's lynch was "lame" (but deserved?), and you defended me from ecane's accusations.. Anyway, that's not really the point I'm trying to make. I have trouble with why you picked her out with these reasons, while:

I didn't say that about Lowell, I said that about Mal.
I fail to see what me disagreeing with ecane's reads has anything to do with what I'm saying (I don't think you do either)

1. She didn't take a particular large amount of heat.
2. The heat she took doesn't seem overly unfair. I didn't think her entrance was particularly scummy, but I don't think it was a beacon of towniness either.
3. How it makes her town? Both scum and town are going to take "undeserved" heat for things, and we know at least one of the "attackers" flipped town.

1. Immaterial to my point.
2. When you look at what she was attacked over, I disagree.
3. The attacks on her don't make her town, and I never said that - I said she got undeserved heat.

One of the things that really concerns me about her is how she has been basically riding her reads from very early Day 1 to now with very little change. Do you disagree? She also seems to be rather focused on a few people (the opposite of casting a wide net as town). Do you disagree?

A few thoughts here;

I don't disagree - but then I think a lot of other players are also doing this.
You are acting on the presumption that town cast a wide net - which is a presumption I disagree with.

[ChaosOmega]

Prodding ecane.

[Aeronaut]

Ok; computer is back. Going to finish up reading rn.

[Aeronaut]

malpascp

Lowell

Creature

qubixes

Flubbernugget

Thor665/Aelin

Not_Mafia

ecane

P2 - Flubber throwing shade onto Aelin's not voting seems like low hanging fruit.

Pg3
#50 And then again flub is here saying "why isn't aelin moving the game forward" but isn't really doing much to move it forward himself.

#69 I like ecane

#79, #83 Flub again; "Lets make the game go forward."

Creature: "I doubt I'll cross Flubber or Qubixes"

#86 Flub softdefence of N_M
#90 Flub unexplained NM vote

Creature #107 - Scum most likely in

Aelin, qubixes, Malpascp

I think (125) is the first thing flub contributes to the game, and it's a reads list that's just names

-----------------------------------

[Aeronaut]

I think lurking comes more often from weak players than scum.

Aside from the fact that he proclaimed he was going to scum hunt in a very ineffective way and then dipped, he does have a meta of lurking more as scum

Flubber correctly dismisses lurking as NAI in 98, but then in 137 he's using that to throw shade on NM.

Flubber's #137 = "I don't have to give reasoning, it's in my ISO". So instead of trying to help anyone understand who and why you're pushing, or trying to get people to join your wagon, you're just kind of sitting there accomplishing nothing.

Creature in #151 being very open about Aolin/Thor slot scum


#171/173 - Creature hard calls out flubber and votes him.

Qubixes' #176 and #177 seem to me like asking questions for the sake of asking questions, and to look busy.

Thor continues to talk about how Nmego is scum but is not voting him. (#204)

Quibixes is just nagging me. Everything he types just is giving me this awful vibe of artificiality to me.


240

Creature thinks flub is town

241 - Creature can't townread thor

255 - Qubixes lists all the reasons flubber is town and then says "but I still think he's scum" and votes him. Continues asking generalized questions.

@N_M Wow, that was a quick summon... Thoughts on the game?

Reading through the rules it should be for both lynches, because it says a Day is two weeks and there are two lynches per Day... Didn't realize that though, so I understand Creature's worries better now. We should try to have some time after the flip to discuss the next lynch.

VOTE: lowell

(L-1)

VOTE: Qubixes

@Lowell

, I know you think you're really good at this game or are acting like it, but please never assume this again until you actually do something pro-your alignment.

#293 Qubixes now jumping on another lurking lynch under the guise of "Let's try to summon N_m" but then mentions it's L-1 so like c'mon dude.

[Aeronaut]

296, 299 and 306 are all posts in which Creature expresses that he'd be happy with a Flubber or Thor lynch. Especially in 299, he's just voting Thor along with Mal, and in 306, he mentions that he's leaning Thor over flubber.

327 - Qubixes jumping on Mal now, but then saying "i'm not sure about this being indicative, does anyone else know?", but then votes him anyway.

Ecane has become especially quiet around this lynch.

344 - Hahahahaha

[Aeronaut]

Ok, so here's how i feel.

I think that Qubixes is probably scum, first and foremost. I was getting bad vibes from his posting initially, mostly because he was doing a lot of fence-sitting and general flip flopping, and mostly looking busy. I think a lot of the questions he's asking are more there to be questions than anything, and there's no clear progression after than and he's not like doing much with them.

I think his voting patterns yesterday point towards scum as well; he keeps tacking on a L-2 or L-1 vote onto an either unrelated post (such as in 277), or in that post, he seems to be completely on the fence or says he's unsure of the lynch, yet jumping right on that wagon anyway (such as with Mal in 327).

[Aeronaut]

As for Thor v flubber, I actually don't really understand Thor's insistence that creature had been targeting Flubber all game and therefore flubber is scum. If anything, I'd say that Creature wanted both Thor

and

Flubber lynched by the mid to end of the day, and if I'm being honest he was definitely pushing more for Thor.

In that same original post where Thor is replying to me, he also mentions that Ecane is getting a lot of hate. I really don't see any instances of that at all. What game are you reading?

So, my general feeling here is that both scum is in between {Qubixes, Flubber, Thor, and n_m} in that order. I'm most sure on qubixes.

[Thor665]

As for Thor v flubber, I actually don't really understand Thor's insistence that creature had been targeting Flubber all game and therefore flubber is scum. If anything, I'd say that Creature wanted both Thor

and

Flubber lynched by the mid to end of the day, and if I'm being honest he was definitely pushing more for Thor.

I never claimed Creature was only on Flubber - nor is that a cornerstone of my case - indeed, I only discussed it a little bit Day 2 when asked about it.
What game are *you* reading?

So I am a scumspect for you - but so is my top scumspect, and so is my top townread - and you're voting the townread.
Wouldn't it make more sense to lynch me or Flubber to sort that question sooner for you?

[Aeronaut]

Well, I feel like you're kind of claiming it was only on flubber. if not, can you tell me why it makes sense that Flubber killed creature because he suspected him, but how that doesn't also apply to you?

The answer is that Qubixes looks like a better lynch to me than either of you. Why is it that you feel so strongly that he's town?

[qubixes]

255 was listing the reasons why I think he was scum, not town.

And yeah I wanted a lynch sooner than later, given that we would have very limited time for the second lynch of the day. Tried the Lowell lynch, stalled. Tried the N_M lynch, stalled. And with all the inactive people we'd have a pretty dead game by now if we had lynched the more active people. Even so, it still feels kind of dead.

And welcome to the club of people that think my town game sounds forced/artificial.

[qubixes]

Uhh.. I think you just said that Lowell's lynch was "lame" (but deserved?), and you defended me from ecane's accusations.. Anyway, that's not really the point I'm trying to make. I have trouble with why you picked her out with these reasons, while:

I didn't say that about Lowell, I said that about Mal.
I fail to see what me disagreeing with ecane's reads has anything to do with what I'm saying (I don't think you do either)

You said you disagreed that the players on the list didn't deserve the heat, which seems to contradict you defending me and saying Mal's lynch is lame. Anyway, I feel it's a technicality that's not going to help me either way (in determining your alignment).

1. She didn't take a particular large amount of heat.
2. The heat she took doesn't seem overly unfair. I didn't think her entrance was particularly scummy, but I don't think it was a beacon of towniness either.
3. How it makes her town? Both scum and town are going to take "undeserved" heat for things, and we know at least one of the "attackers" flipped town.

1. Immaterial to my point.
2. When you look at what she was attacked over, I disagree.
3. The attacks on her don't make her town, and I never said that - I said she got undeserved heat.

1. I think it does matter, because you specifically picked her out to say she took an odd amount of heat. I'm trying to figure out why exactly it is so that you say it that way, whereas when I think about her this game it doesn't stick out to me.
2. So you think her actions were more likely to come from town? I personally think her entrance was more or less NAI (though the "Yo yo." sounds a tad forced to me compared to her other posts), but you disagree?
3. You melded her being town and her taking undeserved heat in the same sentence, which made me think they were somehow related. But you're right that they don't technically have to be. So, why do you think that she is town then?

One of the things that really concerns me about her is how she has been basically riding her reads from very early Day 1 to now with very little change. Do you disagree? She also seems to be rather focused on a few people (the opposite of casting a wide net as town). Do you disagree?

A few thoughts here;

I don't disagree - but then I think a lot of other players are also doing this.
You are acting on the presumption that town cast a wide net - which is a presumption I disagree with.

Well, I didn't come up with that presumption (stole it from someone more experienced than me), but if you disagree, ok. And yes, unfortunately a lot of players are doing this, I agree. Creature seemed to be one of the few that actively was adjusting his reads on the fly. Doesn't make the action less scummy though, just better at blending in with the rest.

[qubixes]

@Aeronaut:

And yeah I don't like to force my reads to be strong. If I'm unsure of my read I'm going to show I have doubts. Sorry, I guess? If you take my viewpoint for a second during Day 1, can you imagine that I don't know who is scum? Also, I think it's pretty clear I took Thor's side initially in his attack on flubber, and changed my mind at the end of the Day. And it was also pretty clear I took ecane's side in her attack on Lowell? Regardless, what is the point of fence sitting on Thor vs flubber for example if I'm scum? Unless you think it's exactly me and flubber as a team?

[Thor665]

Well, I feel like you're kind of claiming it was only on flubber. if not, can you tell me why it makes sense that Flubber killed creature because he suspected him, but how that doesn't also apply to you?

It is fine that you feel that way - though my words don't back up your feels, so...
I think there is a potential argument that i killed Creature insomuch as I kill slots I don't think I can lynch.
I think a casual search of my games with Creature will not show much concern about his play skill (other thanconcern of it not working) but feel free to research that yourself.

Are you saying it's a valid tell against me?
If not - I don't get the point of this.
If so - you should say so.
In either case - my rebuttal stands as stated.

The answer is that Qubixes looks like a better lynch to me than either of you. Why is it that you feel so strongly that he's town?

The extent of your case is that he is kind of fencesitting and drifts onto votes.
I see that as a clear suggestion of newb rather than scum.
I also strongly disagree with you that he has failed to offer up unique thoughts and valid opinions that were not part of the social stream - how many do I need to showcase for you to make you believe he's town? One, two, more than five?
I'd also like to see you outline the suspect votes you think he's made and actually explain the scum motive beyond "he was late on the wagon" as you and I both know scum also often occupy the fronts of wagons, and it's all a matter of playstyle - so what makes *his* playstyle the latecomer scum?

Also, y'know, lynching Flubber...you listed a *lot* of flak on him and very little on me, and...

I'd also still like to see you address why you keep bringing up the point about me WKing your slot considering, y'know, you're not my scumbuddy...right?

You said you disagreed that the players on the list didn't deserve the heat, which seems to contradict you defending me and saying Mal's lynch is lame.

Actually I said *some* of them deserved heat.
If you're going to debate me can we please fact check your comments so I don't have to start every rebuttal pointing out that you're not following the flow logically?

Anyway, I feel it's a technicality that's not going to help me either way (in determining your alignment).

I'm glad we had the conversation then...?

1. I think it does matter, because you specifically picked her out to say she took an odd amount of heat. I'm trying to figure out why exactly it is so that you say it that way, whereas when I think about her this game it doesn't stick out to me.
2. So you think her actions were more likely to come from town? I personally think her entrance was more or less NAI (though the "Yo yo." sounds a tad forced to me compared to her other posts), but you disagree?
3. You melded her being town and her taking undeserved heat in the same sentence, which made me think they were somehow related. But you're right that they don't technically have to be. So, why do you think that she is town then?

1. Why does that matter? Like, what's the scum motive you're attributing to me here? If I'm *defending* her because she's my scumbuddy - then I think she's being attacked. If I'm *defending* her because I'm scum and want freebie town points for protecting town then I think she's being attacked...so...?

2. Yes, I do think so, and yes I disagree with you. I would think that was pretty clear already - since I'm not calling her scummy.

3. Because she isn't doing anything scummy, and multiple other people are. Why do you think she's scum? Apparently for tone or something, which means you're attacking her off your feels rather than a valid reason, which is undeserved heat. Huzzah - we have made the circle.

Well, I didn't come up with that presumption (stole it from someone more experienced than me), but if you disagree, ok.

Do you agree with it?

And yes, unfortunately a lot of players are doing this, I agree. Creature seemed to be one of the few that actively was adjusting his reads on the fly. Doesn't make the action less scummy though, just better at blending in with the rest.

If it's non-alingment indicative, why are we talking about it?
If scum do it to blend in, that means town does it, and then it's stupid to use it in a case, yeah?