Micro 660: Triplicate Mafia - Game Over

[GuiltyLion]

aw yiss we got the Link group

sup Lane

[GuiltyLion]

If guilty is town great, if he's scum well, I owe him one.

can I save this favor for a later game where I'm scum? cause I'm town in this one

[GuiltyLion]

Town wouldnt vote like that.
I could just jump right over and lynch gamma right now.
Isnt that what you want me to do?

walk me through why this doesn't apply to your vote

[GuiltyLion]

Easy VOTE: dbdub

If guilty is town great, if he's scum well, I owe him one.

Next time he's scum he owes me one
Lane you should know what I'm talking about you were there

I think I'm the only one in this site that doesn't remember everything, about their past games. I'm lucky if I remember who I played with unless something significant happened between us

Watch Dogs Blitz
That should jog your memory.

oh this is interesting, I forgot you both were in that game. (I was scum in that game and I lurked out because I couldn't keep up)

what's your point here though, I can't parse your question?

p-edit: yeah. and neither of you were scum so I don't see the relevance

[GuiltyLion]

oh yeah lmao, I was the traitor and he basically claimed scum to me in a private message and I figured the WIFOM would be worth

sorry about that Gamma

[GuiltyLion]

I have my own reads
Don't tell me how to do my job

the casual sass here makes me think gamma's probably town

[GuiltyLion]

Anyways, have you played triplicate mafia before? This is a pretty unique setup for me and i like it. It puts a fresh spin on the game.

SAJ, how does this question help you find scum?

[GuiltyLion]

on the claiming VT thing: the last time I played with AA9 - Kids With Guns (coincidentally also hosted by Not_Mafia) - she was town and scumread advantage for most of the game because he claimed VT at L-1 early in the game, so my first take is that she may be genuine here.

I agree with the case against ArcAngel9. If not locked into groups today, that would be my current vote.

^this is weak

[GuiltyLion]

Town wouldnt vote like that.
I could just jump right over and lynch gamma right now.
Isnt that what you want me to do?

walk me through why this doesn't apply to your vote

Me and Howard are in 2 different positions. My vote was literally random.

I dont think town would have voted at all in his position.

Scum has several reasons they would do what he did.

BUT I was more interested in his reply. Which was what exactly?

Maybe Arc? I get the sentiment with their read on me, but I'm not sure if scum would jump on me like that.
Maybe so, not my choice either way.

I like these replies, Howard's probably the scum in Wisdom

[GuiltyLion]

also Wobuffet was online earlier today so I'm down to lynch him, even if Courage is the all-town group then he's still the better lynch over lane

[GuiltyLion]

I don't like how SAJ gives the early townreads on his whole group, he's playing too nice it reads like he's not interested in finding scum

it's probably SAJ+Howard

[GuiltyLion]

Guilty lion i summon thee

sup

[GuiltyLion]

FOS: GuiltyLion His entrance is soft push on FrankJaeger and possible buddying with Gamma Emerald. Then his most recent appearance is a poor and complete reversal on FrankJaeger with more buddying and echoing others. Group re-read pending DeathByWobbuffet's post since lane0168 has previously been the only active participant.

this is a textbook accusation from scum, Howard is taking shots at me but missing any actual explanation of why my actions are scummy.

Why would scum!GL reverse on FrankJaeger? Why wouldn't town!GL reverse on FrankJaeger? And who are you accusing me of buddying in the second sentence?

[GuiltyLion]

Is Frank's entire case on Howard that Howard rvs voted, but frank did it first so Howard is the scum? Honestly is that what Frank is trying to push here?

lane, can you set aside Frank for a second and tell me what you think of Howard?

[GuiltyLion]

the Gamma push on Frank is terrible, I officially retract my townread

[GuiltyLion]

Is Frank's entire case on Howard that Howard rvs voted, but frank did it first so Howard is the scum? Honestly is that what Frank is trying to push here?

lane, can you set aside Frank for a second and tell me what you think of Howard?

That's hard to do, almost all of his posts are replying to franks foolishness. I'm glad he's trying to move on and looking at other groups. Basically i agree with everything he says and 95% of it is about Frank

you agree with him but does that mean you think he's town? Cause I'm really not seeing any townposting from Howard

[GuiltyLion]

prod received, sorry the last crunch of work before Thanksgiving was busier than expected

reading up now

[GuiltyLion]

I read through the ISO's of my group (Lane+GL+DBW), and I'm pretty sure GL is scum (with the obvious caveat that all three of us might be town). He seems to be tiptoeing a bit too much, and his town and scum reads feel more like a salesman selling their wares.

can you highlight the specific posts that gave you the impression that I was tiptoeing

and why you say my reads "feel like a salesman"? That's a new one

[GuiltyLion]

Switch the vote to Gamma. If he's scum it's in his best interest to be voting frank over howard right now, knowing howard will be lynched later. One of gamma/howard are scum

BAHAHA
Can we just conclude the day so I can see Frank's flip?

can you refresh me what exactly your case on Frank is? Because all I remember from you is your "not understanding" his posts and then making up a huge reach about communicating in the game thread

[GuiltyLion]

honestly that's about all I got

i'm struggling to get my teeth into the game since it seems like traditional L-2 and L-1 wagons are impossible and therefore everyone is just either townreading their group or loosely casing one person of the possible two that they could have cased. I need some flips

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: qubixes

[GuiltyLion]

There is no reason that we can't case/argue against a person from another group, even if we can't vote them, so there shouldn't be that problem. Your reason for voting me is pretty lame ("I need some flips"). What are you going to learn when I flip town, and you didn't as much as have given me a chance? Looks like dunstrall was right that my fate was basically sealed before my entrance into the game (which is stupid and demotivating regardless of what you think of my alignment).

I'll get to this game tonight when I have some time, read trough the whole game carefully and make a write-up. If you're still defaulting to my lynch without a single reason beyond that my predecessor made a single post and was posting elsewhere, I give up.

Except that's not the reason I voted you, you're drawing an A->B connection that I didn't put there. I voted you to advance the game and because I didn't like your unexplained potshots at me. The fact that you take something else that I said ("I need flips") and tried to tie it to my vote without directly asking me about it looks disingenuous to me.

[GuiltyLion]

212 [GL] Can't agree with GL here. It makes a lot of sense to me that Howard!town to scumread someone who reverses on a reply Howard!town clearly sees as BS. Also, scum!GL never reverses his read on anyone, unless he has an obvious reason?

321 is a lot of useless commentary to look busy imo, but I'll address this point directly

The point isn't about the fact that I reversed my read, the point is Howard calls it scummy without explaining why it's scummy. town!GL or scum!GL can reverse a read. Reversing a read itself is not alignment indicative. Therefore it's scummy play to just say "GL reversed his read, so that's scummy" without actually putting the thought or the explanation into why it's

more likely

that I'm scum for reversing the read rather than town. Scum often do that because it's easier to state to the other players of a true fact (GL reversed a read) and let them infer why that's supposed to be scummy, rather than having to make the case explicitly themselves.

also, you didn't highlight any posts that you said look like tiptoeing. Why did you say I was tiptoeing earlier?

[GuiltyLion]

There is one thing that really bothers me about lane though. Why did you complain so much about DBW being inactive and then seemingly not care at all when I do replace in?

I do agree with this though, and would like to see Lane address it. I was also hoping to see him react to my vote but looks like he hasn't been here yet

[GuiltyLion]

Also this reeeks of desperation by Dunnstral.

what is Dunnstral desperate about?

[GuiltyLion]

Also guilty you strike me as similar to the last game when you ended up replacing out. Kinda popping in out, not too much to say. You're better as town I think

This is a fairly scummy jump onto qubixes' push on me. I replaced out of the Blitz because I couldn't keep up with 20 pages a day. I've been relatively inactive here because of Thanksgiving (and generally kind of losing passion for mafia in general - I think I'm taking a break after my current games end). But it's fairly easy to see that my activity has been consistent sitewide and is in no way unique to this particular game.

Why do you say I have had "not much to say"? What do you think of what I've said so far to qubixes?

UNVOTE:

[GuiltyLion]

Except that's not the reason I voted you, you're drawing an A->B connection that I didn't put there. I voted you to advance the game and because I didn't like your unexplained potshots at me. The fact that you take something else that I said ("I need flips") and tried to tie it to my vote without directly asking me about it looks disingenuous to me.

You're saying "I need some flips" in 316, then a naked vote in 317. Just because of the fact that you posted them in two separate posts I am not allowed to conclude that they are connected, when you don't voice any suspicions about me in the posts before that either? If you had that reason for voting me, why not just say it out loud and try to get me to interact on it, instead of apparently hiding it so you can call me scummy when I don't ask you about it?

I thought I was voicing suspicions against you in my first post of that sequence:

I read through the ISO's of my group (Lane+GL+DBW), and I'm pretty sure GL is scum (with the obvious caveat that all three of us might be town). He seems to be tiptoeing a bit too much, and his town and scum reads feel more like a salesman selling their wares.

can you highlight the specific posts that gave you the impression that I was tiptoeing

and why you say my reads "feel like a salesman"? That's a new one

If you're gonna say stuff that clearly doesn't hold up, I'm gonna call it out. What did you think this post was, if not suspicion?

I wanted to put out some content within the limited time I had available (which I indicated), realizing I might have to take some of it back, because I didn't have a good understanding yet of what was going on. The tip-toeing and salesman comments were my first impressions on reading your ISO, and I thought it would be beneficial putting it out, seeing what kind of reaction I would get. Hint: your reaction was pretty bad, voting me in apparent self-defense, when I wasn't even fully caught up.

I'm starting to get worried now that this may be a playstyle clash and you may be town, however, sentences like the last one just make me more confused and absolutely do not convey any kind of town alignment. You admit first that you "didn't have a good understanding" of what was going on, and when I call you out for exaggerating or throwing vague shade at me, you say my suspicion is "self-defense". When I flip green, how are you going to justify your push to other members of the town?

[GuiltyLion]

Also this reeeks of desperation by Dunnstral.

what is Dunnstral desperate about?

Getting his buddy to not be lynched.
And I am acknowledging you Dunn: I think you're scum and I'm not changing course.

and if Frank is town? Why are you basing your read on Dunnstral on the assumption of scum!Frank?

[GuiltyLion]

Why would I make a show of someone doing something they're supposed to do? I don't get recognition for eating vegetables or getting 8 hours of sleep or drinking enough water.

You seemed frustrated at not being able to interact with a player in your group, but when the opportunity arises you don't seem interested. I'm not saying you should be applauding me for doing my job. If you want to go the analogy route, it's like you scream "I'm so thirsty!", and when you receive a glass of water, you're not even interested in drinking it.

I was frustrated for zero participation. Just because you post doesn't mean I have something to say to you. I need water. I need you to participate. I don't need to talk to you. You seem to be doing that just fine

you had plenty to say until qubixes replaced in, then you dropped off. This isn't enough on returning, for me

[GuiltyLion]

ya so other groups should lynch where I tell them to

Also we're not the only group deciding right now

I think this mentality is more likely to come from town!Dunn than scum!Dunn

and since it looks like I may be the Courage lynch, I would state my preferences to be SAJ in Power and Howard in Wisdom. SAJ is trying to play both sides of every issue and I've already explained my issues with Howard's approach of taking drive by potshots without justifying his accusations

[GuiltyLion]

If Frank is town then Dunn is probably town.
My read is based on scum!Frank because of Dunn's shouting to switch.

I guess, but I doubt scum!Dunn goes in to defend his partner there. If Frank flips red we can revisit but I'm very inclined to think Frank is not the scum in Wisdom

[GuiltyLion]

meh okay I guess unvoting isn't really going to do anything at this juncture, so I'm putting my vote back

VOTE: qubixes

if all three lynches are town, I'd absolutely make the LYLO lynch in my group. I've caught Lane as scum before and I think he could be taking advantage of a chance to get rid of me early. qubixes paints all of his posts towards me with exaggeration and mudslinging not grounded in reality, but my flip will speak for itself.

[GuiltyLion]

lane if you hammer me, I'd like you to reason explicitly why you think I am scum

[GuiltyLion]

well this got easier for me

I'm thinking Jin is scummier in Power because I don't feel he was ever looking for scum in his group, the way he hopped between Dunn/Arc throughout the day looks to me like scum willing to settle on either lynch. His vote in 381 is particularly bad, there's no reason for town!Jin to be making a point about how he feels uneasy with his vote because Dunn is a "good player".

Howard probably the other scum over Gamma. He made a show of unvoting Frank because he didn't like the qubixes wagon, but then makes no mention of it again when he put the vote back on Frank. Also, he never did explain his accusations towards me in 131 - still waiting to hear why "reversing a read" is scummy.

@Jin/@Arc - if you two are townreading eachother, then I should be confirmed scum to both of you. Why didn't you explicitly address this?

also @Howard - what does "+1 Gamma Emerald" mean? Are you suggesting he is town for telling you to unvote?

[GuiltyLion]

I am going to start ISOing and look for a reason to kill Lane.

also this is something that scum say way more often than town, makes em look busy

but I'd love to hear what you come up with and how it implicates me

[GuiltyLion]

I don't like how SAJ gives the early townreads on his whole group, he's playing too nice it reads like he's not interested in finding scum

it's probably SAJ+Howard

some 400 posts later I still feel the exact same way, and neither of them have seemed interested in changing my mind since I first said this

[GuiltyLion]

Yes, Gamma Emerald gets town cred for the unvote now post.

why do you think scum!Gamma couldn't or wouldn't make that same post?

I don't believe that thinking about the NK is a scumtell. One group had to come down to a single player. Based on yesterday's reads and probable D2 lynches who might it make sense to leave alone? The scum in a group or the last townie of the all town one? I don't have that answer, but maybe it's out there. Why are you discouraging somebody's attempt at hunting? Allow it and respond to the results.

I'll allow it - I did say I was looking forward to it - but I also won't be surprised when he comes out of it calling me scum, and I was also hoping to get more of a reaction out of him. FMPOV it's obvious the NK is meant to make me a viable mislynch for today, and I'm actually surprised no one has tried pushing it harder yet. I think scum is treading water and hoping they won't have to take the lead in trying to push me, such as Jin not answering my question about calling me confscum directly.

[GuiltyLion]

You think your group was all town, GL thinks his team was all town, and Arc and I think our team is all town. Two people HAVE to be scum out of the five of us. If we focus, avoid throwing random votes out, and comb through posts then we should be able to pull up some convincing information.

no, I

know

my group was all town. this is more wishy-washy fluff from SAJ, and I'm tempted to say it's a scumslip in saying that I (GL) "think" my group is town. If Jin thought I was scum he'd be accusing me of lying, if Jin thought I was town he'd just say I was town. The fact that he said I "think" my group is town when I'm the only one left means he's trying to hide knowledge about my alignment.

[GuiltyLion]

I believe it's more town telling to ask for the unvote. Scum can do it as well, but I believe they would more likely sit back a while.

Why? It's pretty easy towncred to grab if you're going to hand it out like that. And who knows, assuming you and Arc are town, then if Gamma were scum then it could even a way of signaling to his partner that he's online to quickhammer.

also did you vote with the intention of seeing if he would do that? Or is it that you did something anti-town and then give him town credit when he pointed out that your action was anti-town? How is that logic supposed to hold up?

Sarcasm dissuades the read, thus you interfered with having a reaction. How do you feel the NK makes you a viable mislynch? LyLo creates several ML opportunities.

Don't tell me how to scumhunt. There's a variety of ways Jin could react to my snarky sarcasm, and some of them would be telling. In this instance his ignoring it reads to me like more scummy cautious avoidant play.

[GuiltyLion]

Again: How do you feel the NK makes you a viable mislynch? I see nothing but WIFOM in that line of thinking. Unless there is past behavior to support any attempted reasoning.

sorry, I did mean to respond to this the first time but I straight forgot

I mean it is WIFOM clearly, but it's also pretty clear mathematically from the neutral observer perspective that town's best odds for hitting scum are lynching me. 33% chance I am scum, vs ~16.5% chance that anyone else is scum. Lynching in any other group introduces a 50% chance of being wrong, whereas lynching me is just banking that my group was not the all town group.

[GuiltyLion]

gamma, I have seen you posting in other games but not here. Why?

[GuiltyLion]

but you are partially responsible for that by not contributing... have your reads changed at all from posts today?

[GuiltyLion]

the fact that people are barely posting makes me worried that scum are content to sit here. It feels like we are at universal consensus that Howard is scum and now I am getting cold feet and bad vibes from it

[GuiltyLion]

Hm, looking back, Frank may have had a point by pointing out post count, because Howard's is WAY DIFFERENT than mine and Frank's (1/5th). Like he's not really into it.
I feel confident in this.
VOTE: HowardRoark

I thought I could try to trick a scum from Power into signaling in case Howard is town, but EVERYONE else is gone. I'm confident in Howard scum, but I'm not going to risk a quickwagon while I sleep.
UNVOTE:

I'm feeling much better about town!Gamma after this, I don't think scum would go through the effort of a fake LAMIST like this. Like I tried to imagine scum!Gamma doing this while a mislynch on town Howard was likely to go through regardless, and I just don't see it.

Let's do it
VOTE: HowardRoark

[GuiltyLion]

Secret Agent Jin is looking like a reasonable lynch to me.

also this is just WIFOM for after his flip

[GuiltyLion]

gamma's confirmed town

[GuiltyLion]

hey everyone, thanks for the fun game! Not_Mafia thanks for running the set up, it was quite fun to get three mislynches simultaneously And thanks SAJ for being an awesome scumbuddy!

Town let me get away with a lot, I think the big mistake this game was lynching the three most vocal players on D1. qubixes especially played well on replace in, we lucky that we got him out of the way early.

[GuiltyLion]

@GL: Thanks! I was almost sure lane was going to see the light and lynch you, but alas!

hah, same! I was fully in "shut down and don't give anything away for when you get lynched" mode with my last few posts on D1. I definitely wound up using that favor from him that we joked about at the start of the game