Newbie 1761: Welcome to Mafia (Game Over)

[Equinox]

Vote Count 1.05

Cheetory6 (1) - algebra
karldilkington (1) - Cheetory6
MortFeld (1) - XnadrojX
XnadrojX (1) - MortFeld
Zaraki_Jaegerjaquez (1) - Deimos27

Not Voting (4) - ArcAngel9, karldilkington, Zaraki_Jaegerjaquez, Clemency

With 9 votes in play, it will take 5 to lynch.

The deadline is Tuesday, December 13, 2016, at 9:00 PM EST (UTC-5), which is in (expired on 2016-12-13 21:00:00).

Moderator Comments

ArcAngel9 is on V/LA from December 2 to December 8.

[MortFeld]

So then I ask, 'PoE already?'

[algebra]

Yes the players this game have been surprisingly easy to read.

[karldilkington]

Mort 77: So I am suspicious because I'm both buddying up to Cheetory and I'm unreasonably having a go at Cheetory?!? Taken as a whole I don't really see how the tone of that post was off. You're definitely right that 18 sticks out like a sore scummy thumb though.

Hm? Your post was off for buddying and it was off for unreasonable aggressiveness. This isn't like acid/base reactions - they don't magically cancel each other out. I didn't say I was suspicious of you for that post, I just said it was off. That's true even if you're hot and cold on the same person. I can make a post saying "SCREW YOU X PERSON" and in the same post say "X Person, everything you say is so right!" and that post is certainly still off in tone.

That's a fair enough point I suppose. What do you think of my thoughts on Cheetory? Don't you find that a bit strange for him to declare to everyone that he's withholding townreads? Fair enough to wait on certain thoughts to see if your suspicions play out, but there's nothing to gain from telling everyone that's what you're doing. You just make yourself look unhelpful. It's almost something scum would do to look busy.

[karldilkington]

Yes the players this game have been surprisingly easy to read.

Would you mind giving us a break down of what you're thinking?

[MortFeld]

Mort 77: So I am suspicious because I'm both buddying up to Cheetory and I'm unreasonably having a go at Cheetory?!? Taken as a whole I don't really see how the tone of that post was off. You're definitely right that 18 sticks out like a sore scummy thumb though.

Hm? Your post was off for buddying and it was off for unreasonable aggressiveness. This isn't like acid/base reactions - they don't magically cancel each other out. I didn't say I was suspicious of you for that post, I just said it was off. That's true even if you're hot and cold on the same person. I can make a post saying "SCREW YOU X PERSON" and in the same post say "X Person, everything you say is so right!" and that post is certainly still off in tone.

That's a fair enough point I suppose. What do you think of my thoughts on Cheetory? Don't you find that a bit strange for him to declare to everyone that he's withholding townreads? Fair enough to wait on certain thoughts to see if your suspicions play out, but there's nothing to gain from telling everyone that's what you're doing. You just make yourself look unhelpful. It's almost something scum would do to look busy.

Breadcrumbing a townlean is weird, I don't think it's too important though. If Cheetory has no townreads after some more pages? That I find scummy. As long as he explains in a way that makes sense who he townleaned and why he didn't say who he townleaned it's NAI for me. That being said, I'm wondering what conditions prevented Cheetory from giving a name, and if those conditions still exist.

It's almost something scum would do to look busy.

I can think of another reason for why scum would breadcrumb a townlean. I can also think of one for why town would do so. Do you think Cheetory was scum trying to look busy? And, why do you think scum would volunteer a weird half townlean when few other people had given any reads?

[algebra]

Yes the players this game have been surprisingly easy to read.

Would you mind giving us a break down of what you're thinking?

Sure thing! Here all of algebra's down reads, explained!
Karl - 60 and 68 of his I really like. We share reads, and his tone seems right to me.
MortFeld - Asking lots of questions in RVS, got us out of it. Nice.
xnad - Mort v xnad is TvT. The whole argument was spewing town.
Zaraki - Newb town.
Deimos - Good job progressing the day.

[karldilkington]

I can think of another reason for why scum would breadcrumb a townlean. I can also think of one for why town would do so. Do you think Cheetory was scum trying to look busy? And, why do you think scum would volunteer a weird half townlean when few other people had given any reads?

I agree breadcrumbing is a poor scum move given they would surely be better off by straight offering up other people's names for investigation. That way they would appear far more useful and keep the eye off themselves. I don't think Cheetory trying to look busy was necesarily his motive, but I'm still stumped as to why town would be coy about their townreads. Maybe he was deflecting the heat from himself in the short term with promises of strong reads further down the line? Regardless, I'll withhold further judgement to see what he comes up with.

[Zaraki_Jaegerjaquez]

Ok I just finally got home. Why is this important? Well honestly as people have said before, my post was kinda rushed. When I unvoted Deimos I had about two minutes to write it and I regretted posting it because I realize I didn't explain enough. Karldilkton allow me to explain. When Deimos started getting in my face about RVS I got kinda frusterated. I have the right to not vote no? I ended up getting frusterated and voted Deimos out of anger because to me it seemed really scummy to force somebody to vote. When people started questioning I held (and still do) hold my beliefs and tried to explain. That is, apparently scummy because I have an opinion. The next morning I realized that Deimos was playing town how he believed was correct. I think I mentioned in an earlier post that I didn't approve of his methods. Now, what people seem to be taking wrong is that I never said YOU couldn't RVS. I just don't think it is right. Just like other people think it is a good strategy I don't. I went to unvote Deimos and I realize I explained very poorly. Forgive me for the confusion. I also realized that voting Deimos went against my own no RVS, because there's no proof in that. I will continue to keep an eye on him but I won't keep an unecessary vote on him.

On the topic of Cheetory I feel like he's trying to make the game kinda fun and silly between his seriousness. Likely he's trying to make us have fun for our first ever game (at least for me it is) while doing this seriously. As for his townlean? I don't know why he's keeping his cards close, but it could be because he wants to make sure he's right.

algebra: I am a newb. To the game. I don't appreciate being called a newb but it's your read.

Before anybody else says something: I RESPECT your opinions and choices, I just don't agree with them sometimes. Please respect that.

[Deimos27]

Assuming we have a Cheetory lynch and he flips scum, I can see Clemency as the partner for a number of reasons.

a) I know from experience that Clemency loves to play scum and dislikes playing town. So I thought he'd be frustrated being town again after last game (see sig). However he instead seems sort of cheery and more motivated.

b) During RVS Clemency had two votes and Karl only one. Cheetory voted Karl instead of building a bandwagon on Clem, which I believe is pro-town in RVS. It is conceivable that he didn't want to put his partner to L-2 so soon. Maybe to remove some pressure from Clemency. This is why I originally asked for Cheetory's reason not to join the Clem wagon.

This is how I feel at the moment

if

Cheetory were to get lynched and flip red.

PEdit - @Zaraki in what way was I getting in your face and forcing you to vote? I only asked where your vote was, and then quoted Cheetory's explanation of RVS when you asked about it. I also don't see how this made you "frustrated and angry". This is a massive over-reaction. Also your tone in the post that you voted me in actually didn't really sound very frustrated or angry.

I'd still very much like to hear your reasons for disapproving of RVS. As I honestly believe that RVS is pro-town why would I not want to explain to a newer player why this is the case?

[algebra]

@Zaraki I know you're new to the game. You behave like a town new to the game rather than a scum new to the game.

[MortFeld]

Zaraki's explained his backpedals. I have some opinions about his post.

@Deimos, can you answer this

Say you're correct that his reasoning for his vote on you was contrived. What makes you think he is scum making up a reason to vote for you, rather than newb town not knowing how to scumhunt but wanting to try?

again please?

Also a new question: do you believe Zaraki that his vote was out of frustration at being told how to play?

[MortFeld]

UNVOTE:

[MortFeld]

Deimos - Good job progressing the day.

I disagree. Explain more please?

[Zaraki_Jaegerjaquez]

Mort you say I contradicted myself. I did not. Following my logic would I not have believed Dei was kinda scummy for advocating what I'm against? What would be scummy is not voting Deimos even though I find RVS scummy. Hypocritical no? I'm starting to see where you're coming from and maybe I'll rethink my theory. You're kinda making sense I guess. I still however strongly believe that is scummy. (I also never said Dei was off the hook)

[MortFeld]

Mort you say I contradicted myself. I did not. Following my logic would I not have believed Dei was kinda scummy for advocating what I'm against? What would be scummy is not voting Deimos even though I find RVS scummy. Hypocritical no? I'm starting to see where you're coming from and maybe I'll rethink my theory. You're kinda making sense I guess. I still however strongly believe that is scummy. (I also never said Dei was off the hook)

You're not understanding.

You said RVS favors scum.
You also said you need a strong scumread to vote someone.
Deimos wanted you to participate in RVS.
You voted Deimos.

So, either you strongly scumread Deimos, or you contradicted yourself.

But I don't see how you could possibly strongly scumread Deimos. Site meta is that RVS favors town. Even if you believe it favors scum - everyone who participated in RVS believes it favors town, including Deimos. So how can you scumread Deimos for doing something he believes favors town?

Now, you unvoted for something close to you understanding that. Your own argument still makes your vote bad, and the quickness and apparent self-consciousness of your backpedaling (twice) doesn't help. I think you are very clearly new and this newbness informed your strange and unhelpful gameplay so far, so I'm not holding it against you. But at a certain point I'll need you to participate in a way that makes sense.

[MortFeld]

the quickness and apparent self-consciousness of your backpedaling (twice) doesn't help

Worth noting that if Zaraki actually strongly scumread Deimos he only backpedaled once. I just struggle to see how that's possible - but if someone believes that RVS is sufficiently

terrible

it's conceivable that they'd scumread someone trying to force them into RVS.

Basically, Zaraki, your entire gameplay so far has been focused on whether or not people are scummy for points regarding RVS. Now that we're clearly outside of RVS, you should be having non-RVS related thoughts.

[Zaraki_Jaegerjaquez]

I'm trying. Now let's move on from this shall we? People just keep bombarding me with the exact same stuff I answered multiple posts ago.

[MortFeld]

I'm trying. Now let's move on from this shall we? People just keep bombarding me with the exact same stuff I answered multiple posts ago.

No, Deimos is asking why you think RVS favors scum. That's a specific question and you haven't answered it. Originally you said that random votes on Day 1 have a 5/7 chance to hit town, making RVS favor scum, but this was refuted.

As I already said, I'm guessing you don't actually understand what RVS is, so you likewise don't understand the refutation of your argument against it. So Deimos' inquiry is pointless, but maybe you could surprise me and have something reasoned out.

[XnadrojX]

If RVS is scummy to you, Zaraki, then all of us that participated would be considered scummy no? The reason you voted Deimos was for asking you to participate, which was an innocent question.

Now if you strongly scumread Deimos for that, then that means you believe he is scum, which does not go with what you said later. If you didn't strongly scumread him, then you aalready said you need a strong scumread to vote, which once again doesn't go well with each other.

However, the issue I take with this is that you did not clear up the issue. Contradicting yourself is NAI, Town can accidentally too. Instead of explaining yourself, you tried to cover up your mistake with bad logic and poor answers, ignoring what you cannot answer (Deimos). This is scummy.

After looking through the pages, MortFeld is probably Town, but to MortFeld, if I'm scummy to you, I'm sorry but I can tell you that I'm Town.
UNVOTE: MortFeld

Now to Cheetory, this Town lean you do not give to the Town is not helpful at all. It benefits scum more than it benefits Town to keep your Town lean to yourself . Scum can say they have a townlean and then later on say that the tow lean was *insert widely town read guy here*, it makes it easier for scum to go with the flow. Just outright say your townread, it helps town way more than scum.

To Deimos, we also have to consider what if he flips Town. If he flips scum we may get info out of him, but if a town flip occurs then what info can we get out of it? This is another reason for him to be clear about his reads, so that if he flips Town we know what he thinks exactly rather than have to rely on educated guesswork.

[XnadrojX]

By the way, MortFeld said what I did was OMGUS, this is incorrect.

The definition of OMGUS is "voting for someone SOLELY because they voted for you". I had my reasons to vote for you apart from your vote on me, therefore it isn't OMGUS.

Right now I am against a Cheetory lynch, not when you have Zaraki making bad logic and bad arguments.

Glad to see a lot of people have participated in my mini RQS, another trap for scum to potentially fall into.

I'm down for a Zaraki lynch right now tbh.

Algebra, you sure about that combination? Clemency is null to me until he geta more active and tbh i see Zaraki as potential scum, the play just doesn't feel newbtown rather than panicking newbscum

[XnadrojX]

VOTE: Zaraki
Forgot to put this below the "I'm up for Zaraki lynch" line

[MortFeld]

I don't understand your case on Zaraki, Xnad. It reads like an inaccurate rendition of what I said in 140.

Now if you strongly scumread Deimos for that, then that means you believe he is scum, which does not go with what you said later. If you didn't strongly scumread him, then you aalready said you need a strong scumread to vote, which once again doesn't go well with each other.

Why do you think Zaraki couldn't have scumread Deimos at the time of his vote, and then changed his mind?

However, the issue I take with this is that you did not clear up the issue. Contradicting yourself is NAI, Town can accidentally too. Instead of explaining yourself, you tried to cover up your mistake with bad logic and poor answers, ignoring what you cannot answer (Deimos). This is scummy.

What mistake? What bad logic? What poor answers? You aren't being coherent, Xnad. You're presenting a narrative as if you expect everyone to accept it, but as it stands, I don't. Convince me with an actual case, not just a story.

tbh i see Zaraki as potential scum, the play just doesn't feel newbtown rather than panicking newbscum

You haven't shown this. You're just asserting it.

Right now I am against a Cheetory lynch, not when you have Zaraki making bad logic and bad arguments.

Do you think Cheetory is scum?

Now to Cheetory, this Town lean you do not give to the Town is not helpful at all. It benefits scum more than it benefits Town to keep your Town lean to yourself . Scum can say they have a townlean and then later on say that the tow lean was *insert widely town read guy here*, it makes it easier for scum to go with the flow. Just outright say your townread, it helps town way more than scum.

How do you know he doesn't have a town reason to breadcrumb the read? And why are you trying to teach the IC about theory?

[MortFeld]

By the way, MortFeld said what I did was OMGUS, this is incorrect.

The definition of OMGUS is "voting for someone SOLELY because they voted for you". I had my reasons to vote for you apart from your vote on me, therefore it isn't OMGUS.

After I voted you, you voted me. After I unvoted you, you unvoted me. Your stated reason for voting me was an accusation of a scumtell that was not actually a scumtell. Therefore, you functionally had no logical reason to vote for me. Looks like OMGUS to me.

[Equinox]

Bump.