Newbie 1764: Wind Game Over

[DeathByWobbuffet]

UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald
I don't know why everyone decided to jump on the bandwagon with me, but I don't feel comfortable with having someone at L-2 on page 3 while we're still basically in RVS. Will be back with some thoughts on the game so far later, a bit busy now.

[mhsmith0]

Votecount 1.04

Ramcius (1)

Charloux ,

Gamma Emerald (2)

Mewtaph , Accountant ,

Charloux (2)

Gamma Emerald , Van_Veacesalv_Dulca ,

Accountant (1)

nydushermain ,

Not Voting (3)

Ramcius , Pepchoninga , DeathByWobbuffet ,

Day one deadline is Sunday December 25, 11 AM PST. (expired on 2016-12-25 12:00:00)

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch!

[/size]

[Ramcius]

@Ramcius: You say Charloux is trying to get towncred, and this is scummy. Why is it scummy?

he said i'm rolefishing by asking people to claim, being rude i take as NAI here, and put vote on top of that, that's a blatant attempt to look towny framing me by twisting my question, and i can't see this as town behavior

and my question was pretty clear, Gamma got it, others probably too, since no one else called me out on it

[Accountant]

I disagree. Charloux did not say that you are rolefishing. Charloux assumed that you intended to obtain the list of roles in the game through claiming - because that is the only way to get such a list. In this case, he did not try to say you were rolefishing, but rather just said that it would be stupid to claim immediately. If Charloux was scum trying to frame you, don't you think he would have directly called you scummy, and voted you, rather than simply saying it was stupid and that we couldn't do it?

[Ramcius]

I disagree. Charloux did not say that you are rolefishing. Charloux assumed that you intended to obtain the list of roles in the game through claiming - because that is the only way to get such a list. In this case, he did not try to say you were rolefishing, but rather just said that it would be stupid to claim immediately. If Charloux was scum trying to frame you, don't you think he would have directly called you scummy, and voted you, rather than simply saying it was stupid and that we couldn't do it?

i clearly stated in my question if we don't supposed to know exact role list in here, it's my first game in here after all, so his hostile position on this not sit well with me, i could understand hostility on other my posts, but that was simple question on game mechanics

If we outed the roles now who do you think would be killed during the night?

here he says i was rolefishing, also, why only scum benefit of knowing what roles are in play? According to him in same message, and in next message he told i'm scum "don't see town mentality" and voted me, and after you argued that there may be different ways of acting, now you try sell me that scum would vote me instantly instead over 2 messages after getting more "ground" for vote? Now that's inconsistency in you, and maybe FoS Accountant and Charloux

[Accountant]

This is incorrect.

A common-sense interpretation of the sentence:

"If we outed the roles now who do you think would be killed during the night?"

Tells us that Charloux was not directly accusing you of rolefishing, but rather pointing out - albeit in an unnecessarily hostile manner - that what you propose is unfeasible, because it would lead to PRs getting killed during the night. Note the use of the word "we" - of course, Charloux wouldn't be accusing himself of rolefishing, so it's more likely that he is speaking of the town as a whole outing the roles. In other words, he is criticizing any course of action that might lead to town as a whole outing their roles, rather than accusing any single person of participating in a scummy action. Do you see the difference here?

Note, too, that Charloux definitely did not vote you for rolefishing. This is the given reason for Charloux voting you.

I don't like your though process. You think we should treat you as confirmed town and everybody who speaks to you is scum. I'll go on a limb here and say you are using an alter-ego in this game, or you are just bad with pressure hence taking an aggressive approach to fend off any potential attacks on your slot.

Thus, Charloux makes a few substantive accusations against you:

1) That your thought process is scummy.

2) That this is due to scum trying to adopt an alter-ego, creating an inconsistent and shaky mindset.

3) That if 2) is not the case then it is due to you, as scum, knowing that you are bad at dealing with pressure and pre-emptively attacking people who might exert pressure on you.

This is the crux of why Charloux voted you - that's why he wrote it in the post immediately before voting you. After seeing this, I think it's unreasonable to leap to the conclusion that Charloux is voting you for rolefishing. If you want to continue asserting that Charloux is attempting to frame you for rolefishing, you'll have to show two things: a) where Charloux said that you were rolefishing and b) Where Charloux said that he was voting you due to your rolefishing.

[Accountant]

UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald
I don't know why everyone decided to jump on the bandwagon with me, but I don't feel comfortable with having someone at L-2 on page 3 while we're still basically in RVS. Will be back with some thoughts on the game so far later, a bit busy now.

What makes you think we are in RVS? Quite a few substantive accusations have been thrown around.

[Pepchoninga]

I believe that what Accountant is doing is provoking people to show there true self. Questions in mafia are not asked for people to get answers but to see reactions. Ways they answer are hints to who they are. Tho this can also be used as a great protection. Xe almost talks like all his actions till this point are all made in the benefit of town. While other members are showing some motives and are even demonstating there playstyles, Accountant is being calm and collected, asking questions and then leaving them at that, without taking actions or persuing people who he belives are not town to further pressure them.

FoS: Accountant

Also I think it was you who asked me if I like early pressure lynches. Here is my answer: It depends. When I play in a new enviorment like this, with people I do not know, I mostly like to not take actions till I get the flow of the game and get to actually know a the people I'm playing with a little bit.

About bandwagoning. This is a term that was constantly used to point mafia in my first games of mafia on another not dedicated to mafia forum. Bandwagoning too fast and without trying to give your thoughts on why exactly you think a certain person deserves your vote could be suspicious. If you bandwagon with reason then it's not a bad thing. In fact is a winning move for Town.

[Accountant]

I believe that what Accountant is doing is provoking people to show there true self. Questions in mafia are not asked for people to get answers but to see reactions. Ways they answer are hints to who they are. Tho this can also be used as a great protection. Xe almost talks like all his actions till this point are all made in the benefit of town. While other members are showing some motives and are even demonstating there playstyles, Accountant is being calm and collected, asking questions and then leaving them at that, without taking actions or persuing people who he belives are not town to further pressure them.

FoS: Accountant

I think that your statement about me talking like all my actions are made in the benefit of town is not a good reason to scumread me. It is not a good reason to townread me either. Suppose I were town. Then all my actions would definitely be made in the benefit of town. Thus, I would talk that way. However, if I was scum, I would want to fake being town, so I would also talk that way. Therefore we see that I will definitely talk as if my actions were made for the benefit of the town

regardless of my actual alignment

. In this case, it would be incorrect to try to infer one alignment from that piece of evidence alone, since it's a given that I would do it no matter whether I was town or scum.

It is difficult for me to pressure those that I believe are not town. Why? The reason is simple - I don't have many people that I strongly believe am not town. There is the issue of Gamma Emerald, but there's only so long you can talk about tone before it simply because two people yelling back and forth aimlessly. For everyone else, I haven't seen anything else that I think is worth chasing up on. The reason for this is, as I've explained before, a large part of the content these past 4 pages has been completely nonindicative of alignment. I think that a lot of the activity so far has been talk about mafia theory or people making very simple mistakes. I do not blame them for making these mistakes, because it is a newbie game. But since a newbie scum and newbie town are both going to make mistakes, it's hard for me to determine whether these mistakes about the game(for example not being aware that the only way to get the list of roles is to massclaim) are from scum or town. That's why I don't have that many scum reads - yet. I fully expect that I will develop more scum reads as the game goes on, and you should definitely call me out for it if we're 20 pages in and I still don't have any scum reads.

[Ramcius]

This is incorrect.

A common-sense interpretation of the sentence:

"If we outed the roles now who do you think would be killed during the night?"

Tells us that Charloux was not directly accusing you of rolefishing, but rather pointing out - albeit in an unnecessarily hostile manner - that what you propose is unfeasible, because it would lead to PRs getting killed during the night. Note the use of the word "we" - of course, Charloux wouldn't be accusing himself of rolefishing, so it's more likely that he is speaking of the town as a whole outing the roles. In other words, he is criticizing any course of action that might lead to town as a whole outing their roles, rather than accusing any single person of participating in a scummy action. Do you see the difference here?

Note, too, that Charloux definitely did not vote you for rolefishing. This is the given reason for Charloux voting you.

I don't like your though process. You think we should treat you as confirmed town and everybody who speaks to you is scum. I'll go on a limb here and say you are using an alter-ego in this game, or you are just bad with pressure hence taking an aggressive approach to fend off any potential attacks on your slot.

Thus, Charloux makes a few substantive accusations against you:

1) That your thought process is scummy.

2) That this is due to scum trying to adopt an alter-ego, creating an inconsistent and shaky mindset.

3) That if 2) is not the case then it is due to you, as scum, knowing that you are bad at dealing with pressure and pre-emptively attacking people who might exert pressure on you.

This is the crux of why Charloux voted you - that's why he wrote it in the post immediately before voting you. After seeing this, I think it's unreasonable to leap to the conclusion that Charloux is voting you for rolefishing. If you want to continue asserting that Charloux is attempting to frame you for rolefishing, you'll have to show two things: a) where Charloux said that you were rolefishing and b) Where Charloux said that he was voting you due to your rolefishing.

nice wall you got here, and all this true, if we assume Charloux is town, which is opposite to what i'm saying - why mafia would vote me for rolefishing? Especially when there was no intention for it in my question, but Charloux found it. You clearly try show Charloux only from town perspective, and ignore his actions from mafia perspective - what reason to vote me, as a town there? Not towny mindset? thats ridiculous, i don't try derail town, i don't try distract, opposite, i ask work with me, or ignore me, if you not want work with me

[Charloux]

I ask work with me, or ignore me, if you not want work with me

This sentence here is my problem. You say we should treat you as conftown or ignore you. There is no problem with working with you, but why can't we doubt you? Explain please

[Ramcius]

I ask work with me, or ignore me, if you not want work with me

This sentence here is my problem. You say we should treat you as conftown or ignore you. There is no problem with working with you, but why can't we doubt you? Explain please

you can doubt, you can call me scum, but if you do so, better come prepared, i tend retaliate hard to empty treats or false accusations

[Charloux]

I'll treat your comments as "get the fuck off my back, don't ask why" for today then.

[Ramcius]

I'll treat your comments as "get the fuck off my back, don't ask why" for today then.

only today?

[nydushermain]

I've read a past game of yours @accountant and found that the style of questions you ask are similar (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5&start=75) but I still think that you are being more passive in this game than you were in the game that I mentioned. I'll keep you at light scum, although I'm tempted to full on push on you because I think you have a good chance of being mafia, solely because I believe that without you, this game would still be on page 2.

I think that Charloux is quite scummy as well. I think that post 87 did not come from a towny mindset. He says that he thinks Ramcius is scum because of his "overly aggressive" attitude and defensiveness but when he continues to be, what I perceive as, being even more aggressive, Charloux decides to just back off? I understand deciding "okay, this tunnel might be clouding my judgement, I'll look back at other people now" but there's no indication for me that Charloux was even looking at other people as potential scum.

I read accountant scum initially for the same reasons as pepchoninga and I want to say it's a sheep but I don't think it's the case. It feels too obvious a sheep when the only (what I think is) substantial scum read given was from me and his scum read seems to be almost identical. The reason why I think it might not be a sheep (and this is the way I'm leaning for now) is that near the bottom of post 82,

I believe that what Accountant is doing is provoking people to show there true self. Questions in mafia are not asked for people to get answers but to see reactions. Ways they answer are hints to who they are. Tho this can also be used as a great protection. Xe almost talks like all his actions till this point are all made in the benefit of town. While other members are showing some motives and are even demonstating there playstyles, Accountant is being calm and collected, asking questions and then leaving them at that, without taking actions or persuing people who he belives are not town to further pressure them.

FoS: Accountant

Also I think it was you who asked me if I like early pressure lynches. Here is my answer: It depends. When I play in a new enviorment like this, with people I do not know, I mostly like to not take actions till I get the flow of the game and get to actually know a the people I'm playing with a little bit.

About bandwagoning. This is a term that was constantly used to point mafia in my first games of mafia on another not dedicated to mafia forum. Bandwagoning too fast and without trying to give your thoughts on why exactly you think a certain person deserves your vote could be suspicious. If you bandwagon with reason then it's not a bad thing. In fact is a winning move for Town.

he says "also I think it was you who asked me" which shows that he's probably just skimming through the thread and not really paying attention to exactly what is being said. I feel like he probably just saw accountant's name pop up the most in posts and just read through those posts and decided to make a stance on accountant's alignment. So for now, I lightly town lean on pepchoninga because I think that his thoughts are coming from a towny mind set since I thought the same things.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm going to try to adress some things. For now, Ramcius' paranoia feels towny.
@ny: The game being shorter if Accountant wasn't posting is more indicative of Accountant being town imo

[nydushermain]

@gamma, sorry my reading comprehension might be a little bit poor. Are you saying that accountant as town posts less in small games such as this one?

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm saying scum has less motivation to provide more content.

[nydushermain]

btw, anyone could tell me which roles from matrix6 we got in this game? Cause i can't find or it's secret?

I don't really have much on ramcius but I think that the above post leans towny.

Let's assume that he's scum. He knows from scum chat that only one column and row are possible setups because he knows which mafia role is in the game. Then, he only has two to choose from. Does scum Ramcius just ask randomly "Hey ya'll, do we know what the exact set up is?" instead of asking his partners in night chat when he has a tonne of information already? I feel like the above question can only really be asked from the pov of someone who has almost no information on the roles.

[mhsmith0]

Votecount 1.05

Ramcius (1)

Charloux ,

Gamma Emerald (2)

Mewtaph , Accountant ,

Charloux (2)

Gamma Emerald , Van_Veacesalv_Dulca ,

Accountant (1)

nydushermain ,

Not Voting (3)

Ramcius , Pepchoninga , DeathByWobbuffet ,

Day one deadline is Sunday December 25, 11 AM PST. (expired on 2016-12-25 12:00:00)

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch!

[/size]

[Charloux]

I'm saying scum has less motivation to provide more content.

If someone enjoys playing scum, i think they would put in more effort, don't ya think?

[Accountant]

You clearly try show Charloux only from town perspective, and ignore his actions from mafia perspective

On the other hand, you're only showing Charloux from a mafia perspective, while ignoring his actions from a town perspective. I think it's important that all possible perspectives should be brought up so Charloux's actions can be clearly examined in the light of those perspectives. In this manner, we can clearly see if the mafia perspective is significantly stronger, and if it is then we have ourselves a good reason to scumread Charloux. I could definitely see Charloux doing this as scum, but since I can see Charloux doing this as town as well, it's difficult for me to say confidently what Charloux's alignment is, solely based on that.

[Accountant]

I think that Charloux is quite scummy as well. I think that post 87 did not come from a towny mindset. He says that he thinks Ramcius is scum because of his "overly aggressive" attitude and defensiveness but when he continues to be, what I perceive as, being even more aggressive, Charloux decides to just back off? I understand deciding "okay, this tunnel might be clouding my judgement, I'll look back at other people now" but there's no indication for me that Charloux was even looking at other people as potential scum.

Charloux's response was to vote Ramcius, then say he doesn't see any town mentality in Ramcius' posts. After that, his next two posts have been questioning Ramcius. I don't see Charloux backing off here.

[Ramcius]

you can't scumread Accountant for asking questions and being passive, he's IC in newbie game, so it's sorta what he supposed to do, let us do stuff and guide, atleast on start of game

You clearly try show Charloux only from town perspective, and ignore his actions from mafia perspective

On the other hand, you're only showing Charloux from a mafia perspective, while ignoring his actions from a town perspective. I think it's important that all possible perspectives should be brought up so Charloux's actions can be clearly examined in the light of those perspectives. In this manner, we can clearly see if the mafia perspective is significantly stronger, and if it is then we have ourselves a good reason to scumread Charloux. I could definitely see Charloux doing this as scum, but since I can see Charloux doing this as town as well, it's difficult for me to say confidently what Charloux's alignment is, solely based on that.

i don't argue he can be town, my vote not on him

I think that Charloux is quite scummy as well. I think that post 87 did not come from a towny mindset. He says that he thinks Ramcius is scum because of his "overly aggressive" attitude and defensiveness but when he continues to be, what I perceive as, being even more aggressive, Charloux decides to just back off? I understand deciding "okay, this tunnel might be clouding my judgement, I'll look back at other people now" but there's no indication for me that Charloux was even looking at other people as potential scum.

he didn't backed off, vote still on me, just he have nothing against me, no one support his crusade on me, so he just let it go for now

I'm saying scum has less motivation to provide more content.

If someone enjoys playing scum, i think they would put in more effort, don't ya think?

another slip? scum usually try be passive, and even if they put effort, scum always avoid give content, and you try convince Gamma opposite, and how you know Accountant enjoy playing scum? He told in mafia PT?

[mhsmith0]

.