Mini 495 - Mafia on a Plane! GAME OVER! =)

[Elias_the_thief]

unfortunately, it is up to the mod to accept the vote, not you.

I don't really have an opinion on lucienne, or not a strong one at least. Her few posts seem town, and I don't see much of a connection from her to anybody. That being said, I really hope shes returns and posts or is replaced, as its hard to play a game with one player not here. As it is, Gemelli is scummier/has stronger ties to korlash then lucienne. I just dont see lucienne being scum with kor (i know this ties me to her, but since I'm not scum, its all good)

[vollkan]

unfortunately, it is up to the mod to accept the vote, not you.

No. I mean that if Gemelli does not adequately explain it, he will attract severe suspicion from me (potentially even my consent for Orig to take him out). Regardless of his alignment, that should be a serious enough threat.

Gemelli is usually a fairly well-reasoned player, so uncharacteristically poor stuff (such as we have seen of late in respect of his vote on you) will be noticeable.

[Streeflo]

Lucienne has been prodded.

[Gemelli]

So there you have it. Korlash comes up trumps in all 3. Thus, he will be getting my vote today.

That's a compelling argument. Obviously, from my perspective the possible scumpairs are quite a bit simpler:

Korlash/Elias
Elias/Lucienne
Korlash/Lucienne

But if we need to account for the possibility of a Mafia singleton remaining, I think that your questions (1) and (2) become more important for today's lynch. I agree that Korlash gets the edge on (1), with Elias getting perhaps a smaller edge on (2).

I still dont see why you can value the Gemelli/Korlash team so low, especially after gems incredibly dumb vote on me right after I got one vote, especially when he continued to rate korlash number one and me number two.

Elias, if it turns out that you actually ARE town in this game, please come back to this post when it's over. Taking a hostile, condescending tone in posts like this -- and not for the first time this game -- may go a long way towards explaining your poor record in games as town.

Your "case" against me has boiled down primarily to the fact that I'm suspicious of you, and putting pressure on you to contribute to the game. (If there are other things that cause you to suspect me, please do us all a favor and make them explicit.) I have a strong hunch that if someone was pointing a finger at you using the same type of argument that you're using against me, you'd throw a fit and call it a WIFOM-based weak connection case. I know myself to be town, but I certainly don't assume that people who suspect me are scum just for posting their suspicions.

Anyway, please go back and review my posts from D2. I stayed pretty focused on Oman as a prime suspect from the moment I entered the game. And I kept after Korlash after he replaced in, though I treated him differently as he has a different posting style. If you look at the whole game, I am pretty damn sure that there's more evidence AGAINST the Gemelli/Korlash pairing in this thread than there is FOR it.

And seeing as Gemelli and korlash are almost certain buddies (and least from my perspective) then you can guess where his vote will be going. It comes down to spurg, and a lurker. Great.

Since D3 started, I placed two votes: first on Korlash, and then on you. Both were pressure votes designed to elicit reactions. Hell, just a few hours ago, I posted that you and Korlash are pretty much dead even on my list. In my opinion, I've treated the two of you pretty much equally today, and I am at a loss as to why you've ignored all of my D3 play that hasn't been directed at you. You're either scum trying to save his own skin by throwing suspicion onto a townie, or a townie with a serious persecution complex. Trying to decide which explanation applies to you has been incredibly frustrating.

In the end, there is enough doubt in my mind about your alignment that I think I will probably favor a Korlash lynch today. I've read a few more games of yours, and the sort of rampant hostility you've displayed here seems to be something that shows up when you play as town, not so much when you play as scum. (Which, again, may be something to think about if you'd like to improve that town record ) As of this moment, I think that Korlash is a safer bet as our D3 lynch.

Anyway, so far I don't think that there has been a case against you raised by Gemelli. Indeed, he had Korlash in the lead. Unless he can explain properly why he suspects you more, I will not accept a vote for you from Gemelli.

I don't suspect him *more*. But I don't suspect him *much less* than Korlash at this point. Rest assured, if I do end up voting for him instead of Korlash, I will summarize the points I've raised throughout D3. Basically, my case against Elias comes down to the points I raised in posts 1424, 1444, 1488, 1496, and 1597.

Vollkan, you seem to be implying that if I vote for Korlash, I wouldn't need to justify myself. That seems ... odd. In any case, my case against Korlash is captured in the points I raised in posts 1444, 1484, 1509, and 1519. Again, if I end up voting for him (as seems likely), I'll summarize the key points in my vote post.

Gemelli is usually a fairly well-reasoned player, so uncharacteristically poor stuff (such as we have seen of late in respect of his vote on you) will be noticeable.

The votes I cast for Korlash and Elias today were for identical reasons: trying to elicit reactions to help me make up my mind. I'm curious as to why it was "uncharacteristically poor" for me to apply this tactic to Elias, and why it wasn't notable when I did the same thing to Korlash. But that's a discussion we can have when the game is over; I don't think it would do anything but distract us from the matter at hand at this point.

12:01 Sunday would be the deadline.

Thanks, but in what timezone? GMT? EST? I don't mean to be pedantic, I just want to be sure I don't make bad assumptions.

[Korlash]

hey all just got home. Expect a read up and post later!

[vollkan]

So there you have it. Korlash comes up trumps in all 3. Thus, he will be getting my vote today.

That's a compelling argument. Obviously, from my perspective the possible scumpairs are quite a bit simpler:

Korlash/Elias
Elias/Lucienne
Korlash/Lucienne

But if we need to account for the possibility of a Mafia singleton remaining, I think that your questions (1) and (2) become more important for today's lynch. I agree that Korlash gets the edge on (1), with Elias getting perhaps a smaller edge on (2).

Just in regards to number 2. I know I said Korlash comes up trumps in all 3, but Elias is pretty close for number 2; it's mostly a matter of weighting and in light of Elias's defences.

I still dont see why you can value the Gemelli/Korlash team so low, especially after gems incredibly dumb vote on me right after I got one vote, especially when he continued to rate korlash number one and me number two.

Elias, if it turns out that you actually ARE town in this game, please come back to this post when it's over. Taking a hostile, condescending tone in posts like this -- and not for the first time this game -- may go a long way towards explaining your poor record in games as town.

To be frank, I don't think rudeness is a scumtell anymore than poor punctuation is a scumtell. It's an ad hom point (attacking rudeness, not Elias calling the vote dumb), unless you actually explain why scum are more likely to be rude than town. "Dumb" is not the most helpful explanation, but I know what he meant since he already explained his problems.

Anyway, please go back and review my posts from D2. I stayed pretty focused on Oman as a prime suspect from the moment I entered the game. And I kept after Korlash after he replaced in, though I treated him differently as he has a different posting style. If you look at the whole game, I am pretty damn sure that there's more evidence AGAINST the Gemelli/Korlash pairing in this thread than there is FOR it.

I'm not personally inclined to see your attacks on Korlash as evidence against a scumlink. I mean, unless Lucienne is scum, there has been bussing amongst the scum. Thus, I restate: any combination of the four seems plausible to me.

I don't suspect him *more*. But I don't suspect him *much less* than Korlash at this point. Rest assured, if I do end up voting for him instead of Korlash, I will summarize the points I've raised throughout D3. Basically, my case against Elias comes down to the points I raised in posts 1424, 1444, 1488, 1496, and 1597.

I'll look over them now.

...
Elias: Never suspects him. Not even once. Responds respectfully to him once, asks for his help, enthusiastically welcomes him back, is "fairy happy" with Elias as pro-town, and gives him a 30% scumdar rating. THIS IS THE ONLY PLAYER REMAINING IN THE GAME WHO DYBECK DID NOT SUSPECT EVEN IN PASSING.
...

Yup. This is an interesting point. Elias says dybeck did it as buddying to a townie. I raised similar concerns to you as it pointing to them being scum together. This point is not rock solid, but it is not completely tenuous either.

The other thing I wanted to look at was Elias's response to these arguments. It turns out that he never responded to them at all; he was planning to (post 1037) but never got around to it.

Some other D2 posts of Elias's, for reference purposes if nothing else:

* Post 1021: Response to Vollkan's case against Dybeck
* Post 1035: Responds to Vollkan's theory that Elias might be mafia
* Post 1085: Long response to Vollkan post explaining the "lynching Orig is bad" position
* Post 1227: Response to Vollkan post: Korlash-Gemelli-Lucienne possible scum group
* Post 1255: Reacts to Dybeck's cop claim
* Post 1272/1274: More reaction to cop claim; Dybeck is preferred lynch
* Posts 1277, 1295, 1297, 1307: Back-and-forth with Korlash
* Post 1356: "Dybeck's scum"

As to D3 content, I wanted to respond to a few Elias posts:

Um...I was going off of your post's list of uncertains...if you look at that post, you already have dybeck written off as cop or mafia, which was my opinion at the time. I was simply speculating as to the uncertains.

But that's not what you said. You said "Assuming we have 3 scum, there is our scumgroup." You didn't include Dybeck in the equation at all.

Dybeck is an experienced player. Do none of you find it unlikely that he would purposefully NEVER post suspicion on me?

He may be experienced, but he was on the defensive for almost all of D2, having triggered the town's collective scumdar early. And you could just as easily ask the question: why would a mafia purposefully NEVER put suspicion on someone he knew to be town? The answer to both questions is probably the same: the "average mafia" would probably not "purposefully" do either thing. But the fact is, Dybeck has done exactly that. Don't you think it's worth speculating why he treated you differently than everyone else in the game?

The point about the 3 scum is interesting. If dybeck was written off as cop or mafia, then the scumgroup couldn't be those 3. Elias explained this in 1459 as being that he was leaning to cop at that point. Still is odd that he wouldn't consider the possibility.

The second point was later explained by Elias as the fact that he was the easiest target and, thus, it would be natural for dybeck to buddy him. I think this shows that this point has a significant wifom element.

Um....Are you dense or something? How in hell is bringing up the possibility of LYLO an appeal to emotion in any sense of the word?

You're a debator, so I'm assuming you are familiar with this stuff. The fact that we may be in LYLO has no bearing on the argument of whether or not you are mafia. And thanks for the bit of ad hominem there, too.

The lylo thing was an emotive appeal, in the sense of fear-mongering. That earns some scum points. As for the ad hom, you'd need to convince me that it is actually a scumtell

The way in which it pretains to my defense is that in the case that we are that close to LYLO, the current case against me is not strong enough to take that big a risk. This is purely an assessment of the amount of danger town is in right now.

You're missing the point. If I felt that the case against you was strong enough, I would have voted for you already. Right now, I do not think the case against Korlash is all that strong either.

Also, my post was in no way "veiled threat". It was much more an indication that you are my number 2 in terms of who is likely to be scum. Honestly, are you just lying to make me look bad now or what?

OK, that's twice that you've mentioned me as a scum candidate now. And apparently I'm a liar for viewing that as a threat. Nice. Well, since you've brought it up, maybe you can explain your case against me? I mean, above and beyond the fact that I suspect you, obviously. Clearly you have reasons to find me suspicious; let's hear them.

Elias later commented on this by noting that it was different between saying that you felt threatened and that Elias had threatened you. He thinks his threat was not veiled and he would formulate a case. (This case never surfaced).

Um...what exactly is the case on me besides the connection point? Essentially nothing, as you have just pointed out, besides that connection point.

We have:

(1) Dybeck's preferential treatment of you for the entire game, and
(2) Your different responses to the cases against Oman/Korlash and Dybeck

That's not "essentially nothing." We have exactly one scum player confirmed at this point. I believe that the best leads we can get should be drawn from that player's behavior towards others, and from others' behaviors towards him. Right now, the links between you and Dybeck are stronger than those between Oman/Korlash and Dybeck. Change my mind!

To say that the case on Korlash is only the connection case seems kind of makes it seem like youre overlooking a major something, and not accidentally either.

Another accusation. Are you implying that I'm aligned with Korlash, in spite of the fact that I was one of the people who presented the big D2 case against Oman and pushed most consistently for his lynch?

Doesn't rule you being Korlash's buddy out...

I'll say it again: I want to focus on people's ties to Dybeck first and foremost. Korlash's behavior is suspect, absolutely. But I find his ties to Dybeck to be more of a reach at this point than yours.

Not significantly more of a reach really, as you seem to be acknowledging now

Really, I don't know. If there's anything I can say I have in this game right now, its a reputation of not living up to my promises. If I'm in the the mood to post, I will. But if I'm not, and promise content, I probably won't get around to it. Thats as good as an excuse as I can give. But let me say this: were I scum, I imagine that the most likely partner you guys would turn to would be korlash (for obvious ties to Dybeck equivalent to what I had, as well as what could be seen as distancing with me about the content). Now, were we a big happy mafia family, why would I ignore a case on one and attack the other?

Honestly, if you are confirmed as Mafia, I think it's just as likely (maybe more) that you and Dybeck are aligned with Lucienne, based purely on observed behaviors and the reasoning you've just provided.

Why Lucienne?

does anyone think the way that Korlash came into the game seemed a little suspicious? His first real post in the game, 1087 I think (4th actual post if youre using the parser) he makes absolutely NO mention of any cases on Dybeck, but simply comes into the game with all guns firing at Vollkan. Am I the only one who is reads this as a big fat distraction? He makes mention of Orig also, a smaller issue, but ignores Dybeck all the way up until his 11th post, post 1125. Thats a damn long time. And even then, he only mentions him as a possibility of being Vollkans second scumbuddy. He continues to hole this opinion for some time, without ever really backing it up. In his 48th post, 1267, he lists Dybeck as only 45% chance of being scum, despite considering him an almost certain third member of the scumteam for some time. In post 1279, suddenly Dybeck is listed as his top suspect (with me alongside). Wait, I thought a second ago you just werent completely certain on his claim, and had him at 45%? Also, in 55, 1310, suddenly shafted is rated near last on his LoS, and several players below Dybeck on his LoS he lists stronger reasons for suspecting them. In his 59th, 1334, he finally votes Dybeck, for being unhelpful. Wow. Thats all for now, but does anyone else see a completely unexplained shift over to Dybeck being #1 as the town began to feel that way?

All good questions and good grounds for discussion. Korlash, how would you explain this?

Red font is mine.

Gemelli, you keep talking about "preferential treatment". Please define and give examples.

I was talking about two things:

(1) He reacted differently to the case you brought up against Dybeck (commented on it at length in 1021, said he was undecided on it in 1029, said it wasn't too convincing in 1035) and the cases against Oman that shaft.ed brought up in 1005 (said he would comment on it in 1037, never did) or that I brought up in 1055 (let pass with no comment at all).

(2) His overall behavioral trend towards the two players is different:

Day 1

Elias posted his only non-random vote of the game for Oman in post 49, and attacked him in posts 52, 58, 59, and 243. He did not acknowledge Dybeck at all.

Day 2

Elias made four posts in which he was noncommittal towards the Dybeck case (1021, 1025, 1029, and 1255), and three posts critical of Dybeck (1272, 1274, and 1356) after the town consensus was already strong. On that same day, Elias posted one noncommittal post on Korlash (1156), and six critical/confrontational posts against him (1225, 1227, 1277, 1295, 1297, and 1307).

Obviously the term "preferential treatment" is subjective, but I thought it notable that from a 10k foot perspective, Elias treated these players differently through the first two days of the game.

This post makes a good linking argument really. Obviously, these points need to be taken with a grain of salt, since they are subject to wifom, but that doesn't invalidate them. It just means that we need to make sure we are mindful of Elias actually being independently suspicious and on his rationalisations for these.

Any reactions he might have wanted to draw out from his gonna-vote-for-Korlash-soon announcement should have been apparent in the six days of real time that passed since he first did it. Every player in the game except AlyG has posted since that announcement. What possible new reactions could he hope to draw out by doing the same exact thing that no one reacted to previously? It just doesn't add up.

So I decided to fire a shot across his bow to see what would happen. Lo and behold, suddenly he's full of ideas and contributions to the game Rolling Eyes

Here's a fun fact about post 1582: this is Elias's ONLY post since D3 started that was not made in a direct response to a question posed to him, or a response to suspicions levelled against him. His case against Korlash was only offered when he was directly asked who his first choice of scum would be. Elias is not scum-hunting. He is engaging in self-preservation. His only contributions to hunting scum have been offered in order to distract from the case against him.

I note that Elias's lastest post is covering familiar ground -- complete with saying I sound stupid, and continuing to push the Gemelli/Korlash scumbuddy scenario -- and frankly I don't see the need to respond to any of it. I didn't join the game to participate in a hairsplitting battle, where you claim that the hairs YOU split are important and relevant, while the hairs that others split are stupid and meaningless.

I agree. Much as I had problems with your vote's explanation (though, it does appear to me to be a pressure vote, which makes sense), the waiting thing was weird. I don't know if it was monumentally scummy. Certainly something to keep in mind, though.

Vollkan, you seem to be implying that if I vote for Korlash, I wouldn't need to justify myself. That seems ... odd. In any case, my case against Korlash is captured in the points I raised in posts 1444, 1484, 1509, and 1519. Again, if I end up voting for him (as seems likely), I'll summarize the key points in my vote post.

I said:

Anyway, so far I don't think that there has been a case against you raised by Gemelli. Indeed, he had Korlash in the lead. Unless he can explain properly why he suspects you more, I will not accept a vote for you from Gemelli.

What I meant was that I couldn't recall the specific arguments against Elias that had been made, and how they excelled those on Korlash. Obviously, justification would be required for either, but what I meant was a specific explanation of the case on Elias, since that was less clear than the case on Korlash.

The votes I cast for Korlash and Elias today were for identical reasons: trying to elicit reactions to help me make up my mind. I'm curious as to why it was "uncharacteristically poor" for me to apply this tactic to Elias, and why it wasn't notable when I did the same thing to Korlash. But that's a discussion we can have when the game is over; I don't think it would do anything but distract us from the matter at hand at this point.

Sorry. That was me being unclear again. As far as reaction voting, the vote itself was fine; just the rationale about the delay just seems odd (then again, Elias's responses were odd also). It just seemed strange to me that you would target something so trivial rather than compiling something more substantial against Elias to elicit a response.

[Korlash]

Eek I got like halfway and was like "Hold the phone! No way I can do this in 45 minutes! O.o WTFBBQ!"

However I see Vollkan said he will vote me in like 24 hours... so... Jeeze... I don't have time to not post do I? Man... Damn you deadline, once again you have snuck up on me and kicked me in the shin then T-bagged me! Oh what a cruel game of Halo we play...

Anyway, please go back and review my posts from D2. I stayed pretty focused on Oman as a prime suspect from the moment I entered the game. And I kept after Korlash after he replaced in, though I treated him differently as he has a different posting style. If you look at the whole game, I am pretty damn sure that there's more evidence AGAINST the Gemelli/Korlash pairing in this thread than there is FOR it.

Hmmm... I mean scum would never focus on each other as a prime suspect... *rolls eyes* If I were scum I would so totally think you were too...

that is about all I have time for... weird... random quote ftw! Seriously... Don't hammer me until at least Friday so I can get my thoughts in first. Let me try to force a scum-pair evidence onto AlyG! =D *Joking...*

Perhaps jokes are not the best thing right now... *sighs*

[vollkan]

However I see Vollkan said he will vote me in like 24 hours... so... Jeeze... I don't have time to not post do I? Man... Damn you deadline, once again you have snuck up on me and kicked me in the shin then T-bagged me! Oh what a cruel game of Halo we play...

Yup That's part of the idea of signalling my voting intention; it forces you to respond.

[Korlash]

I'll do my best in the morning... ^^ At least I get to see Elias burn tonight! Orig your my hero! >.-

[Gemelli]

To be frank, I don't think rudeness is a scumtell anymore than poor punctuation is a scumtell. It's an ad hom point (attacking rudeness, not Elias calling the vote dumb), unless you actually explain why scum are more likely to be rude than town. "Dumb" is not the most helpful explanation, but I know what he meant since he already explained his problems.

Oh, I'm not trying to say that rudeness is a scumtell. What I'm saying is that it's a lot harder to talk/work/scumhunt with someone who's actively insulting you. I'm also frustrated that he has yet to substantiate his suspicions of me, yet continues to press the ScumMelli possibility as a near given from his POV. While I don't think this behavior is necessarily a scumtell, it sure doesn't seem to be pro-town. Hence my suggestion on playstyle and his town record.

I'm not personally inclined to see your attacks on Korlash as evidence against a scumlink. I mean, unless Lucienne is scum, there has been bussing amongst the scum. Thus, I restate: any combination of the four seems plausible to me.

Fair enough. I'm not asking you to eliminate it as a possibility; I just hope you examine my history (especially as it relates to Oman/Korlash) and decide for yourself how LIKELY it is.

Why Lucienne?

I was reacting to Elias's argument that since he treated the cases vs. Dybeck and Oman differently, an Elias/Dybeck/Oman scumgroup didn't make sense. So I pointed out that if Elias IS confirmed as Mafia, that line of thinking would argue more for Lucienne as the third Mafia, since Elias had treated Dybeck and Lucienne about the same at that point.

Much as I had problems with your vote's explanation (though, it does appear to me to be a pressure vote, which makes sense), the waiting thing was weird. I don't know if it was monumentally scummy. Certainly something to keep in mind, though.

The waiting thing was minor at best. I was looking for a pretense to apply pressure, and the double-post presented itself. IMHO the important point from that post was actually in the 3rd paragraph you quoted: I find Elias's failure to post ideas, opinions, etc. unless he's being attacked very strange. Again: if it's not a scumtell, it's certainly not pro-town behavior.

[Elias_the_thief]

I still dont see why you can value the Gemelli/Korlash team so low, especially after gems incredibly dumb vote on me right after I got one vote, especially when he continued to rate korlash number one and me number two.

Elias, if it turns out that you actually ARE town in this game, please come back to this post when it's over. Taking a hostile, condescending tone in posts like this -- and not for the first time this game -- may go a long way towards explaining your poor record in games as town.

Please try not to be a hypocrit. You call ME condescending, while you pretend to know why I have a bad town record. For the record, I will not go back to this post when the game is over. You see, good players have these things called playstyles. The point of a playstyle is to try to make yourself sound as similar as possible from game to game despite alignment. I can consistently sound condescending as scum and town, thus I incoporate it into my playstyle. Especially since this is something I've only been doing in my last 2 town games (record: 1-1) you really don't know what the fuck youre talking about. As I went 1-4 before I started doing this, and 1-1 since, I think its improving my play. But thanks for the advice, however useless it is.

Your "case" against me has boiled down primarily to the fact that I'm suspicious of you, and putting pressure on you to contribute to the game. (If there are other things that cause you to suspect me, please do us all a favor and make them explicit.) I have a strong hunch that if someone was pointing a finger at you using the same type of argument that you're using against me, you'd throw a fit and call it a WIFOM-based weak connection case. I know myself to be town, but I certainly don't assume that people who suspect me are scum just for posting their suspicions.

I never assume that. It's a common misconception about my play. It amuses me how often bad players will attack me on these grounds. Anyways, you make it seem as if I've posted some case and youve shown it to be false; this isnt the truth. I simply havent posted a case, because I dont see the need today. There are much better NK targets for scum tonight then me, and I've made up my mind for today. I'll post a case tomorrow, when it's relevant. Till then, I wont.

Anyway, please go back and review my posts from D2. I stayed pretty focused on Oman as a prime suspect from the moment I entered the game. And I kept after Korlash after he replaced in, though I treated him differently as he has a different posting style. If you look at the whole game, I am pretty damn sure that there's more evidence AGAINST the Gemelli/Korlash pairing in this thread than there is FOR it.

Distancing is fun isnt it.

And seeing as Gemelli and korlash are almost certain buddies (and least from my perspective) then you can guess where his vote will be going. It comes down to spurg, and a lurker. Great.

Since D3 started, I placed two votes: first on Korlash, and then on you. Both were pressure votes designed to elicit reactions. Hell, just a few hours ago, I posted that you and Korlash are pretty much dead even on my list. In my opinion, I've treated the two of you pretty much equally today, and I am at a loss as to why you've ignored all of my D3 play that hasn't been directed at you. You're either scum trying to save his own skin by throwing suspicion onto a townie, or a townie with a serious persecution complex. Trying to decide which explanation applies to you has been incredibly frustrating.

You know how easy it is to do something and then say "it was for pressure?". Simply put, I dont believe your vote was pressure. I believe you only changed it because you got called out on how bad the reasoning was.

In the end, there is enough doubt in my mind about your alignment that I think I will probably favor a Korlash lynch today. I've read a few more games of yours, and the sort of rampant hostility you've displayed here seems to be something that shows up when you play as town, not so much when you play as scum. (Which, again, may be something to think about if you'd like to improve that town record ) As of this moment, I think that Korlash is a safer bet as our D3 lynch.

Ha, its funny because you think you have a better idea of my playstyle then I do. As indicated by my wiki, my games arent in chronological order, so you really dont have any idea which games were played before my shift in playstyle, and which werent. Despite this, at least you've come to realize that my hostility is not a scumtell, I do it always.

Regardless, I'm fine with personal attacks. Call me an idiot, call me whatever, but the commentary on my playstyle is not needed. First, you dont know enough about my completed games, my past playstyle, or about my personality to realistically have any hope of improving my play. Second, you have no completed games (that I can see). To pretend that you are some guru who can improve my town play (which isnt even that bad by the way, I got screwed over in a couple games*) just makes you come across as a condescending asshole. At least when I'm a condescending asshole, I usually know what I'm talking about.

* games I got screwed in as town:

430:

town was modkilled into near lynch or lose then NKed the next night. town made the wrong choice without me in LYLO.

355:

modkilled directly into LYLO, and low activity led to a bad lynch, though with little help from me.

462:

check it out starting page 17. I was lynched based on setup speculation completely, before I even had a chance to resopond to any points against me. Guardian lost the game in endgame.

Three games that had almost nothing to do with my play that came up as a town loss (in 462, absolutely nothing). So dont think you know why I lose games as town. Actually read them. As far as I can tell, I'm only responsible for two of those losses, making me 2-2 in terms of actually playing the game.

[vollkan]

Fair enough. I'm not asking you to eliminate it as a possibility; I just hope you examine my history (especially as it relates to Oman/Korlash) and decide for yourself how LIKELY it is.

I've said myself that it doesn't seem as likely as my other options, but distancing can go to great extents.

Best examples I can give from my own experience:
In Newbie 358, my scum-partner pushed against me and actively sought my lynch for basically the entire game; and we won with no casualties. How we managed this was that nobody thought that a scum-link was possible between us. However, nobody was persuaded by my partner's rather weak, though passionate, arguments.

In Stargate SG-1 Mafia, I bussed two of my four partners to the point of having them lynched. Indeed, I even led the wagon on one of them. Granted, it was the best thing for me to do, since both were pretty clearly going to be lynched anyway - but I pre-empted the general sentiment by advancing strong arguments. And my scumgroup won.

Since those games, I have been immensely skeptical of so-called "town tells". The only way I think something can actually be a town-tell is if the pushing for the lynch is sincere, strongly argued and that the lynch advocacy is not pre-emptive. Referring back to my examples: In 358, whilst it was not pre-emptive (at least later on), the arguments were weak. In Stargate, whilst it was pre-emptive, the arguments were strong.

You know how easy it is to do something and then say "it was for pressure?". Simply put, I dont believe your vote was pressure. I believe you only changed it because you got called out on how bad the reasoning was.

I think this is valid. However, Gemelli did say at the time:

Here, let's see what kind of reaction this results in:

Unvote; Vote Elias

That suggests he was seeking a reaction.

[vollkan]

EBWOP: - Just to be clear:

Since those games, I have been immensely skeptical of so-called "town tells". The only way I think something can actually be a town-tell is if the pushing for the lynch is sincere, strongly argued and that the lynch advocacy is not pre-emptive. Referring back to my examples: In 358, whilst it was not pre-emptive (at least later on), the arguments were weak. In Stargate, whilst it was pre-emptive, the arguments were strong.

I am not saying that any argument which does not satisfy both is, or is likely to be, distancing. What I am saying is that I find it hard to view something as possibly being a town-tell unless it meets both.

[Elias_the_thief]

You know how easy it is to do something and then say "it was for pressure?". Simply put, I dont believe your vote was pressure. I believe you only changed it because you got called out on how bad the reasoning was.

I think this is valid. However, Gemelli did say at the time:

Here, let's see what kind of reaction this results in:

Unvote; Vote Elias

That suggests he was seeking a reaction.

Well, you have a point there. But it is equally easy to have the excuse in mind before taking said action and include it in your post. I just dont think that he meant to ONLY get a reaction, but would have kept his vote on all day had he not been called on bad reasoning.

[Gemelli]

Elias, I'm absolutely done trying to talk to you. You're a self-righteous, arrogant prick, and the entertainment value I have been getting out of this game has been almost entirely sucked away by reading your snotty, hostile posts. If this is how you get your rocks off, great, but I want no part of it.

I'm not going to pull a Ryan here, nor am I going to ask to be replaced, but I have better things to do with my free time than act as a sounding board for some random misanthropic Internet asshole. This will be the last game I play with you, and very likely the last game I play on this site. You can have your "playstyle," and I'll spend more time with people who don't think being a dick is something to be proud of.

[vollkan]

Well, you have a point there. But it is equally easy to have the excuse in mind before taking said action and include it in your post. I just dont think that he meant to ONLY get a reaction, but would have kept his vote on all day had he not been called on bad reasoning.

I understand fully what you are saying, but I think you can see that there is a significant amount of conjecture involved in that theory.

The only thing I can see as supporting it is that Gemelli continued to argue along those lines...but even that doesn't rule out a pressure vote.

Elias, I'm absolutely done trying to talk to you. You're a self-righteous, arrogant prick, and the entertainment value I have been getting out of this game has been almost entirely sucked away by reading your snotty, hostile posts. If this is how you get your rocks off, great, but I want no part of it.

I'm not going to pull a Ryan here, nor am I going to ask to be replaced, but I have better things to do with my free time than act as a sounding board for some random misanthropic Internet asshole. This will be the last game I play with you, and very likely the last game I play on this site. You can have your "playstyle," and I'll spend more time with people who don't think being a dick is something to be proud of.

I've tried to keep out of this as much as I can, but seeing as it's escalating, I hope you will both forgive me intruding.

Gemelli, Elias has a valid meta reason for acting the way he does. I mean, I get pretty close to Elias's tone myself at points, both in games and GD arguments. Indeed, I

was somewhat amused to

read that Quagmire included me on a list of his favourite GD temp ban candidates because I am "annoying and pretentious and condescending." (a very similar sort of criticism to yours against Elias).

In games, I usually get snipey (as I did with your case against me) when someone says something which I regard as ridiculous. Moreover, being a little abusive can often emphasise your disagreement. The trick is not to overdo it, because doing so will get an accusation of ad hom.

Now, from Elias's perspective, if he is like this inconsistently (most likely in the sense of not being condescending as scum so that he doesn't get disliked) his meta is ruined. Thus, his options are to either abandon it altogether - which is not a good thing because it sometimes is a good way of shooting down an opponent and of fazing them from making further attacks; or to be consistent.

I'd also really discourage you from leaving the site, because you are a good player. Just remember that we all have our personas and some of us think aggression and rudeness can be a good card to play in circumstances.

[Elias_the_thief]

I'm well aware that youre pissed, but lets try to resolve this without becoming enemies for life, and concentrate on catching scum.

A defense:

1. Nothing I say in a game of mafia has any real bearing on my interaction with others on the forum outside of games. My arrogance and hostility are put-on; an act, that I can reenact on both sides of the game. When I leave this thread, I'm a good deal friendlier..
2. Call me a prick if you want, but I'm not the one being intolerant of others. Intolerance is always a sure bet to piss people off around here, as I've learned in the past. A lot of people will probably seem like pricks to you, at first.
3. I am not the only one who would have responded like I have. Someone of your experience trying to improve a veterans playstyle, especially without even reading their games, will be considered rude, and viewed as arrogant.

An explanation:

1. As Vollkan pointed out, its important to keep a meta consistent on both sides. I realized that I get angryand condescending when wrongly accused as town. If I can consistently do this as town, the possibility for use in playstyle is tremendous. And, my meta would be ruined if I

didnt

emulate it.
2. Anger and condescension cause people to react genuinely, and reactions are great for getting good reads. I build the entire foundation of my play on the ability to get decent reads and my ability to defend myself in an identical fashion on both sides of the game. This is important in mafia as you know.

An apology; a proposal:

I'll admit my last post may have gone overboard, but I hope you can admit that you may have gone overboard as well. It is at least equally, if not more so, condescending of you to assume you can improve my playstyle while obviously not actually looking into my games at all. Given that I was genuinely pissed off, as opposed to my usual stance of acting as such, my post came off pretty vehemently. For this I apologize. Now, I will propose to you a deal: If you agree to not make further commentary about improving my town record and playstyle, I will make a largescale effort to be less condescending, at least in this game.

Now, as for leaving the site, I will not agree with Vollkan. I won't discourage you, though i wont encourage you either. Though know this: on this site you will encounter people much meaner then myself, with much more annoying and degrading playstyles. If you wish to have any fun on the site, let go of what your idea of a good playstyle is, and accept that everyone is free to hav their own, regardless of whether you like or not. If you can accept that, stay. If not, don't.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Now I propose we go back to playing mafia.

[Elias_the_thief]

ebwop: in an explanation, should read: "If I can consistently do this as

scum

, the possibility for use in playstyle is tremendous"

[Streeflo]

GMT-7

Right now, it is

9:24

pm in my time. Pacific timezone or whatever.

Or even easier,

74.5

hours until deadline.

Hope that helps.

[Gemelli]

Elias, I absolutely overreacted, and I apologize for that.

I agree that it was obnoxious of me to critique your playstyle, as this is just my second Mafia game (and I was killed N1 in the first). I was trying to explain what it is about your play that makes it hard for me to believe you are town, and reacting to your earlier post about being frustrated by your bad town record. I could have worded it differently, and I won't presume to offer you advice again.

Vollkan, thanks for the compliment, but I think it's clear that I let this game get under my skin. I enjoy the investigative aspect quite a bit, but the mudslinging aspect isn't something I can get into. I don't think I'd be a very good Mafia, basically I'll sleep on whether I'm going to keep playing or not after this game ends, but I certainly don't think I'm going to put this level of effort into a game again.

[vollkan]

Vollkan, thanks for the compliment, but I think it's clear that I let this game get under my skin. I enjoy the investigative aspect quite a bit, but the mudslinging aspect isn't something I can get into. I don't think I'd be a very good Mafia, basically. I'll sleep on whether I'm going to keep playing or not after this game ends, but I certainly don't think I'm going to put this level of effort into a game again.

Last thing on the matter: - Don't get me wrong. I wasn't saying that mud-slinging is obligatory, so don't get the impression that not being able to "get into" it will somehow inhibit you. In fact, most players don't do it. My point was that a few of us find it an effective psychological tactic to use in mafia and that you really shouldn't get riled up about it.

I'll do my best in the morning... ^^ At least I get to see Elias burn tonight! Orig your my hero! >.-

Anyway, the time has come:

Vote: Korlash

I do hope you show up to post your thoughts before deadline.

[Elias_the_thief]

I may have missed that post earlier, but huh? When did Orig say he was NKing me tonight?

[originality]

Yeah, I don't remember agreeing to kill anyone tonight.

[vollkan]

Orig, let me clear about this: Regardless of the outcome of today, you cannot NK.

I can't see Korlash not ending up as the lynchee, without some radical new revelations.

If Korlash comes up town:

In this case, we can be pretty certain the scum are among Lucienne, Elias and Gemelli. To me, the only way this would not be the case is AlyG being scum, which I doubt significantly.

I shall assume 2 mafia are left.

Now, if you are our vig:
Mislynch Korlash = 4:2
MafNK = 3:2
- Vig NK town = 2:2 -> If you are NKed, this causes a loss for us. I cannot allow you to risk our game on 2/3 chance of catching scum
- Vig NK mafia = 3:1 -> Not worth the risk.

If you are a SK:
Mislynch Korlash = 3:2:1
You need to assume that mafia will not NK you, obviously.
Thus,
MafNK = 2:2:1
- SK NK town = 1:2:1 -> You will lose here. The day will No Lynch and the mafia will NK you.
- SK NK mafia = 2:1:1 -> In this case, we will No Lynch and then it will come down to cross-kills for us to win. You WILL be NKed by the mafia here and will therefore lose.

This is an interesting point. Orig, if you are the SK, a mislynch today will prevent you from winning at all if there are 2 mafia remaining right now. See the above for what happens if you NK. If you choose not to NK, then it stays at 2:2:1. A lynch of mafia is needed for us to have a hope. Thus, in the event of success it becomes 2:1:1. From there, you will get into a cross-kill situation where your loss is all but guaranteed.

What about if there is just 1 mafioso left right now?

So, it would currently be 5:1:1
Mislynch Korlash = 4:1:1
-SK NK town = 3:1:1
-SK KN mafia = 3:0:1

Now, there is something important here. We don't know how many mafia are left, but Orig needs to assume there is only 1 if we mislynch today. Thus, we get put in a vexing situation wrt SKOrig. Assuming, Orig survives tonight:
1) If he chooses not to kill, it will be 4:1:1 or 3:2:1 BUT we have no way of knowing. In both cases, our best bet is to lynch mafia (a no lynch in 3:2:1 runs the risk of a 2:2:0 loss)
2) If he NKs town, we are either in 3:1:1 or 2:2:1 and again, no way of knowing which. Here, it is clear that our best bet is, again, to lynch mafia.
3) If he NKs mafia, we are either in 3:0:1 or 2:1:1. This is the most interesting situation.

See, whilst we obviously win by an OrigLynch in the first situation, we don't know whether we are in the first or second. The solution which first jumped into my head was "No Lynch regardless. If it is the former, we can judge by the number of NKs that occur after the No Lynch. If it is the latter, then we get cross-kills."

One major problem, however, is the possibility of mafia choosing not to NK to lull us into lynching Orig. If mafia does not NK and Orig does, then we are in either 1:1:1 (where we obviously No Lynch and both scum will need to kill) or 2:0:1 (we will know know this by the dead mafia). In both cases, Orig will lose without question. Thus, Orig's best bet is to not NK making it remain at 2:1:1. Or is it? If Orig NKs town, then he places it at either 1:1:1 or 2:0:1. We can't judge this. In 1:1:1, the solution is to No Lynch. In 2:0:1, no lynch is tantamount to suicide. Thus...a massive can of worms is opened. If the mafia choose to NK to be clever, they actually run the risk of reducing their chances of success to 50% (in 1:1:1). Thus, their best bet would appear to be to NK Orig in the first place.

If Korlash comes up mafia:

If you are vig:
Maflynch Korlash = 5:1
MafNK = 4:1
-Vig NK town = 3:1
-Vig NK scum = 4:0

Orig, in this case, it should be pretty clear that you are NOT to NK. Doing so nets us no advantage other than squandering the ability to No Lynch twice, or mislynch once. Plus, if you misvig and you are NKed, we are in LYLO.

If you are SK:
Where it is now 4:2:1
Maflynch Korlash = 4:1:1
MafNK = 3:1:1
-SK NK town = 2:1:1 -> You lose
-SK NK mafia = 3:0:1-> You lose (we know the mafia are gone. Thus, we lynch you)

Where it is now 5:1:1
Maflynch Korlash = 5:0:1
SK NK = 4:0:1

This is interesting. In the second case (4:0:1), obviously lynching Orig nets us a win. However, we don't know whether the mafia might have abstained to be clever and make it look like 4:0:1 when it was actually 3:1:1. Regardless, we should still lynch Orig. That will either give us a win, or make it 2:1:0 lylo. Of course, if there are 2 town NKs then we know it is 2:1:1 and we No Lynch.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have probably made several mistakes in the above, but I thought I would deal with this now.

[Korlash]

Actually I have decided my post does not actually matter anymore. The way I see it, I will get lynched today and bam it's game over for me. Tomorrow the town lynches Orig, and then it's like.. 2: 1 and I could care less who wins anymore...

I will say this who ever has freaking saved Orig's ass the last two nights needs to be shot. I mean I am seriously under the impression the mafia have a doc or something...I mean the first time I just thought Oman had gotten RBed or something, but not twice.. I mean come on... So yeah... Watch out for that...

Anyways... GL town I guess... My vote would go for Elias being Orig's partner. I only say that because I am trying to survive and of course saying I think the guy who can hammer me is likely scum is kinda dumb... Besides that I am getting serious town vibes from Gem *Puppy eyes* He is sooo awesome... I <3 him sooo much...

>.>

So yeah... You guys have fun in LYLO... ^^'

Oh yeah,

Unvote:, Vote: Orig

That was a nice move making me claim again there Vollkan. I stared at the screen like... for 15 min going.. ok... I wana claim vig but that is kinda dumb at this point... blah blah blah...

Oh and FYI, Spurg.. Sorry about the NK way back when. Even though it was Oman that did it, I still feel like it was me