Mini 1869- camn's revenge GAME OVER!

[drealmerz7]

mastina you sound like my alter-fucking-ego

[drealmerz7]

funtimes

[drealmerz7]

you are good, you almost got me to unvote you

my mistake at the underestimation

[Monokuma]

There is only a few people here that i have played games with, one of them being Dreal. If anyone else posted like Dreal has been i would look at those posts as a bit scummy but, i mean really, it is just Dreal being Dreal so i take whatever he says with a grain of salt but that can only last for so long.

I am attempting to get a feel of the players since this is the first time i have played with a majority of you all. Two questions arise for me.

1) Normally i would have a townlean toward Mastina because of the content she produced early but this is camn's revenge and it seems nothing is normal. My question: Does Mastina post these analytical posts a high majority of the time no matter alignment or is this a rare thing?

Mastina is a definitely name that is synonymous with long-winded.

Hey Monokuma, you've stated that you agree that Mastina's setup spec is mostly WIFOM, but do you personally think that it's scum mastin spreading bullshit or town mastin just being overly dismissive?

No no no, you misunderstand!

We didn't say mastina's setup spec is her wifoming, mastina's setup spec is her GRAPPLING with wifom. Grappling, like a mighty hunter does with a bear, right before they get their head bitten off and their guts ripped out! It's pointless! It's futile! It's a bunch of guesswork that amounts to nothing!

It should be said however that mastina would have delivered that exact entrance as either alignment. Bears have GREAT intuition you know; so we're sure this is true!

[mastina]

We have literally no clue of how Pine picked up his players,

Wrong.

Yes we fucking do.
It's called knowing Pine as a person.
Psychological profile of Pine, as a player. His likes. His dislikes. His weaknesses. His strengths. His habits. His friends. His playing history.
This game is explicitly not random. So treating it as if it were random will give you nothing but a bad time. And I am telling you: in spite of the fact that I've known Pine for longer than anyone else in this game, save Nacho, and in spite of me being Pine's oldest friend and thus knowing him better than the rest of you schmucks, he didn't draft me...and while you have only my word at that...as soon as I flip town (and I will in fact be flipping town), you BETTER FUCKING BELIEVE me when I say that is significant and means...

...That Pine left the person who is basically the Pine expert around to be town. I know Pine. YOU don't. YOU have no experience with him. But I have more experience with Pine than any other player here. And my experience transcends time. I know Pine from the past in his glory days. I know Pine from his brief return to the site after having flaked. And I know Pine in the present, too, because not only have I seen him in games, but I've also talked to him outside of games. Given him advice. Shown him how site meta has shifted. I know Pine on every level that you do not.

So when I tell you that Pine did something: you better fucking believe that Pine did in fact do that thing.

"I think Pine would pick him as scum" is scummy af.

There's no think.
None.
Just knowledge.
Simple, fundamental knowledge.
Of who Pine would pick.

With him having not picked me, there's only a select few he would have picked.

I think the Real Gin N Tonic (mainly because of 131)

Yeah that's a shitty post all-around so citation needed.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

It's quite simple what we do with mastin. We wait for her to get Night Killed.

It's pretty much self evident at this point that if Mastin is actually town, she'll be the strongest voice to listen to and the scum team will have to kill her early to gain an advantage.

If town, scum have to balance "do we keep her alive to frame her off of this" or "just kill immediately to not deal with it?" situation that I actually think is worth the stress to push.

If scum, well you'll eventually crack but at this point I'm leaning the former over the latter.

[mastina]

Mastin, I respect your reasoning on how Pine would draft, but I also feel like Pine's trying to fuck with us. Your strong reaction to not being picked and assumption that nacho MUST be scum just makes me think that it could have easily been done on purpose like that, to get you two at each other throats.

Huh. Weird. I swear I've heard this reasoning before.

I'm actually going to argue the fact that if both of you are steller scums, he'd make sure both are town purely for the fact that he'd know you'd be at each others throats.

Oh yeah. That's because I have.

Pine is also someone who strikes me as good at making you think what he wants you to think.

Yes, he is. But while he was better at it than I was at seeing through it when we first met each other almost six years ago, he stagnated whereas I got better. The only reason that Pine's considered stellar in manipulation is because townplay of the site meta went to shit in the last couple of years. He's still stagnant. He hasn't improved in the last few years. I was able to tell just from a casual glance at a game he was scum. Because he's still the exact same scum player he was years ago. He's better than most players, sure. But most players are shit. Pine can fool people who aren't familiar with him. Pine can fool people who don't know how he thinks, how he operates. But he can't fool people who intimately know him.

Also justsayin this was a scumpost through-and-through.
The first section echoing TheRealGin-N-Tonic. That section having been bad in the first place. Writing off Pine's choices as unreadable, when the whole fucking point of this game is outguessing Pine. (Literally this game is outguess Pine: the game. That's the whole fucking theme of the game, and Aeronaut is telling us

not

to do that, to treat this game as if it were normal...when that's exactly what Pine would want.) Saying Pine is unpredictable. The whole Nacho/mastina bit. And most of all, the vote on drealmerz, who is basically the most obvtown of the players who have history with Pine.

[mastina]

Knowing this, I can say: pisskop, SirCakez, Prism, and BTD6_maker are all basically conftown. They haven't played with Pine recently as far as I know, and they're too young to have played with Pine in his glory days.

This is a pretty shortsighted conclusion coming from you!

Actually it's incredibly long-sighted. Part of my plan, I guess you could say.

This is basically my way of saying that those players get a temporary free pass, for as long as I live and we still have 2 or more scum alive. I won't consider lynching them prior to that point. I have good reason for offering this immunity. Of course they could be scum. But they aren't. And I'm not touching them, least of all on day one.

[mastina]

Why?

Because it's the case.

Ok, well how are we expected to ever do anything with your read of him if you're not going to give us a reason why?

By trying to figure out the read on your own.
And from this, forming your own read.
And viewing by your own lens.
And reflecting by that.
You know, standard stuff that you'd have to do anyway?

[drealmerz7]

this is good shit

so, yes, he picked you exactly for all of those reasons with the additional skill of being able to town it up so much as scum - and you just detailed for us exactly why he would pick you and why it matters.

and I really don't mean to be arrogant, people (everyone standing around watching not knowing me being like 'what a fuck comparing himself to mastina'), it's just true that: HOLY SHIT, mastina looks and sounds like me playing my top-notch scumgame (which admittedly hasn't happened often because I ALMOST ALWAYS ROLL TOWN FFS - seriously 4 scum games to like 13 town games or something? I just always see green it's a bit maddening at times.) - these angles are amazing! set yourself up for the 1v1 and then concede that you get MLed a lot, while the guy that has pretty much no traction with ANYone pushes you and sees your game

of course I have no way to prove it and do have the awareness I could still be wrong, but, I really don't think so -

tell us, why sign up to be in the pine revenge game and then offer yourself for a 1v1 on D1? if you're town and know pine SO WELL, you would never want to give yourself up so early before being able to help your fellow townies through the game

you're right, it's a huge game of WIFOM, which I kind of excel at analyzing and makes me wish I knew pine better, BUT, I think I can suss it out well enough at this point, pretty confident, really

so if you're town and go 1v1 and nacho is lynched and flips scum you're like, guaranteed NK right? if you're town and don't go 1v1, is pine going to tell his scummers to not go after to 1.) because you're a valued guest and let's not kill you D1/N1, plus it'll help with the wifom of 'is mastina scum' and 2.) can he risk letting you live that much knowing you can read him so well?

none of it adds up or holds up

what does? him picking you #1 (and I have no doubt pine got to pick first) and counting on you to be like this - but of course what he wasn't counting on was me

@Camn, who picked first in the draft?

mastina, what do you think about my claim to have the growing ability to almost soul-read pine? having only played a few games with him at this point, too, and that is not a claim I make lightly or am able to make often, but it is something I recognize and something that does exist in me for a few people - it surprised me when I got the feeling from him at such an early exposure

I DO NOT yet have the fully developed feeling of it, BUT, I do feel it there and feel it growing, especially the more he posts in this game

also, for how much you are claiming to be able to help us with the pine-figuring, you're not, you're just piling up the mountains of WIFOM for distribution as the game goes along

[drealmerz7]

It's quite simple what we do with mastin. We wait for her to get Night Killed.

It's pretty much self evident at this point that if Mastin is actually town, she'll be the strongest voice to listen to and the scum team will have to kill her early to gain an advantage.

If town, scum have to balance "do we keep her alive to frame her off of this" or "just kill immediately to not deal with it?" situation that I actually think is worth the stress to push.

If scum, well you'll eventually crack but at this point I'm leaning the former over the latter.

TRGNT serving up wifom FOR mastin

it tastes nasty! please don't do that

[drealmerz7]

Why?

Because it's the case.

Ok, well how are we expected to ever do anything with your read of him if you're not going to give us a reason why?

By trying to figure out the read on your own.
And from this, forming your own read.
And viewing by your own lens.
And reflecting by that.
You know, standard stuff that you'd have to do anyway?

so you're here to help, but, we've got to do it alone?

[mastina]

What about your desire to lynch Nacho isn't 100% unadulterated organic non-GMO

guessing

?

Guessing implies that there is a lack of knowledge behind the action.
It implies randomly taking a shot in the dark.
This?
A clearly illuminated path with a laser sight.

Kinda hard to miss.

[drealmerz7]

Knowing this, I can say: pisskop, SirCakez, Prism, and BTD6_maker are all basically conftown. They haven't played with Pine recently as far as I know, and they're too young to have played with Pine in his glory days.

this is how scum get a few townies to potentially lessen the gaze they put upon mastin, pk is probably the scumbuddy of that group

[pisskop]

you scumread mastin?

[Pine]

Mastina, you have no idea how thrilled I am to be playing with you again. You know me so well! We should hydra after this.

[pisskop]

you also called them mastin, which is kind of their older name.

So are you actually some kind of alt

[pisskop]

Like lol, youve been hard softing that, but lol

[drealmerz7]

nah I meant to type mastina actually

fast typing and awareness of the mastin2 that is around

I'm not an alt just new to MS (relatively)

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Okay can I formally request you shut the fuck up about set up guessing? Start pointing out how scummy shit people said, mind you not relating to thinking your theorycraft isn't worth the time (it isn't, I'm thinking its more ego related at this point).

Although it's great to say this whole thing how you know Pine so well, in the end it's all seriously noise and continued use of it without actually scum hunting leads to the conclusion that you used it as a smokescreen to get a town read and push an agenda. Like seriously, you fall under an anecdotal fallacy and I'm not touching that.

[drealmerz7]

vote it, TRNGT! you won't be sorry!

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

She's not D1 lynch worthy.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Also, since some of ya'll dont know me; I prefer to go by "Gin" when talked about me

[mastina]

Why? Because Pine knows we would of thought that and it's all WIFOM.

You know what wifom is?
Real wifom is?
Do you want to truly know and understand what wifom is?

I'll tell you what wifom is.

Spoiler: Wifom is...

The absolute most overused buzzword used on mafiascum.net, by people who don't understand what the term really means, and is used as a bullshit "justification" to dismiss valid scumhunting tools, such as NKA ("but, maybe the scum killed for WIFOM!" yeah no), VCA, or in this case: setup generation.

But if you don't want to use that definition, I'll tell you what definition you can use: the game is out-thinking the thinker.

Now you tell me that Pine cannot be out-thought.

I say bullshit, he absolutely can.

Pine's not a moron.
He knows what people think of him: Some amazing scum player who is a mastermind. A genius. He isn't predictable. He is hard to catch. So his moves aren't going to be able to be deciphered. This is what Pine knows people think of him. So Pine will just do what makes the most sense: just go with the choices which are most optimal.

It's like nightkills in any game.
This isn't Pine-specific. It's userbase in general. Scum know that towns won't do NKA. They know that towns think NKA is wifom. So what do scum do? They don't do the wifom kill which is suboptimal for them. They make the kill which most benefits them, safe and secure in the knowledge that any NKA done which incriminates them will be written off as nothing more than wifom.

Ergo, in this game, Pine knows that people are going to assume that he made wifomy choices. Yet, wifomy choices are suboptimal for him: they lack team synergy and they lack strength of a scumgame. So, by making wifomy choices, Pine not only would be doing what the town expects of him, he would also be leaving himself with a much, much weaker scumbase.

So instead, he just makes the most obvious choices, safe and secure in the knowledge that because they are obvious, anyone arguing they are scum for being obvious will be written off on "but wifom!", all the while having built...a scumteam that has both synergy and strong players which Pine knows will be able to play and function well.

Really not that hard to understand.

[mastina]

But really, look at him. You think that's scum?

No, he shouldn't, which is why the fact that he did is one reason Aeronaut is scum.