Mini Normal 1861: Musical Mafia (TOWN WIN)

[culted]

Well I'm no longer scum reading massive so it's not really relevant anymore.

It is relevant because you're taking issue with my thought process. I'd like you to explain why.

[massive]

I claimed because I don't get another investigation if we screw today up. Narrowing down the pool by two people was worth it. This way we still have enough time to get over our collective hang ups on me and BlackVoid; before I claimed there was focus on both of us that just needed to stop.

[Aj The Epic]

Yeah and the fact that you don't get another investigation in that scenario is one of the many reasons your claim is suspect.

[Kairal]

Well I'm no longer scum reading massive so it's not really relevant anymore.

It is relevant because you're taking issue with my thought process. I'd like you to explain why.

I already did but ok. I had no problem with your argument- however you made an argument shifting the focus from massive to Newman. This is exactly what a scum team might try when one of their members was the front runner for a lynch. As I say though massive's claim checks out, he's not scum, so you can't be his scum partner so there's no use discussing it.

[Aj The Epic]

You're pretty adamant about that massive's claim is good. I see like 3 different reasons it could be bullshit.

1.) Scum haven't shown a power role capable of countering (RB, though I guess GF could exist)
2.) Massive doesn't have to clear another person before LYLO if we mislynch today. Ergo, if scum wants to perfect game it, this is a good option to get a likely lynch 'cleared'
3.) The reveal was pointless. At no pressure to lynch either MDS or Massive, he reveals cop?

[Kairal]

1) How do we know they don't have an RB? Without any flips we have no way of knowing what scum do or don't have.

2) How is this beneficial to scum massive? He'd obviously prefer to produce a 'guilty' result on lylo to get a win.

3) If he waited past today it'd be lylo and it would become hard to believe. Scum could counterclaim and make it a 50/50 (and generally I'd say people will lynch the original claimaint rather than the counter)

But really why risk dying (given that he can't be sure we don't actually have an even cop) for the benefit of... clearing two people who weren't likely to be lynched today anyway. As you note there was no pressure.

[Kairal]

The substance of your 1) argument seems to be that it would be too townsided if massive were a cop. A Jailkeeper, and odd/even cops doesn't seem that strong to me. For comparison a recently finished Mini game had a jailkeeper, tracker, one shot bulletproof and a neighborizor. Scum had a one shot tracker and a one shot ninja to counter.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=68714

Maybe I'm just underestimating the value of our roles or something but it seems like it would be balanced fine if mafia had a tracker or something to help them find the JK. Or maybe a strongman to shoot through it if the JK is protecting claimed cops.

[I Am Innocent]

Dierfire, top 3 scum reads please?

I'd say massive, Flubbernugget, and...MiniDeathStar, maybe? The full list would look like this:

TOWN
---
Aj The Epic, I Am Innocent, CloudKicker* (need to follow through on reading Shadow_step more carefully as discussed with Aj The Epic)
---
Kairal, culted, MiniDeathStar
---
Flubbernugget, massive
---
MAFIA

I can flesh those out more later, but in brief: I think that 1025 from massive indicates a conclusion that was formed before the evidence (that post questions Kairal but includes a vote for Flubbernugget, and I don't see a reason why the argument doesn't apply to MiniDeathStar).

I'll have a much more thorough response within 48 hours.

We're now over 72 hours.

I still think scum is in dier, cult, AJ, and flubber.

mod I vote for the extension as well

Probably going to vote dier unless I'm wowed in his next post.

[Naomi-Tan]

I feel as though Naomi isn't telling the truth when she acts like she didn't know Neman/Grey/Jin were dead

Okay I dislike this comment for the following 2 reasons; Firstly The only person I didn't know was dead and included in my read lists was newman. Who was removed upon you pointing it out and the reason they was thought as alive was beacuse I copied the alive player list to my note pad and they haddn't been removed at the time (thus my comment)

Secondly you imply that I was including more dead people in my big read lists than I was.

I haven't replaced into a game but out of curiosity if you replaced into CK's spot and he was town... what would you say about his play?

A few issues I have specifically with this (because yeah, it's pretty common to be frustrated with a replace-in slot [see above: rarely ever viewed as protown]) is Naomi's claim that she does a lot of LAMIST. Yeah, we've seen that. However, CK did the same thing and when we're talking about an ahmished tell, I'd expect that part to bother her a lot less considering these two have very similar play in many aspects concerning how they carry themselves.

You may think our play styles are closer but that doesn't change the fact she did really dumb things. You'd have to be silly to think that her play wasn't bad. heck the mod replaced her for not playing to her wincon!

[Naomi-Tan]

. Jin's dead and flipped green, making the opinion potentially 'more impactful' to us because we know his alignment. But in the same breath, it's caused Naomi to do nothing more than agree with it instead of offering her own arguments

Lost a quote.

Okay so. If someone makes the same argument you'd made I shouldn't agree with them? like they have valuable points that I agree with and I wasn't even around to post to join in at that time. Like.. I can't time travel... So.. this is the best thing I CAN do.

Additionally making my suspicions clear has been kept to a handful of posts where I do explain my issues and why I think there red while your statement makes it look like I am not writing anything original and thats just not true.

[Naomi-Tan]

Hmm I see. I think you have a pretty good argument about her selective re-read. I think she intends her reading to be a clear sign of town. However it seems to me it would be very easy to simply read scum chat to know what her allies are planning and use that to inform her reread.

I'm not really townreading her... I just think she's probably not on a team with culted and flubber. I'm not really sure who her team mates would be. It would have to be two people I'm townreading: Aj, Dier and IamI. Not impossible but it seems less likely.

This isn't something you can defend. As there is no legal way to confirm your town as VT.

[Naomi-Tan]

3

Why just fos kai and not vote him?

Well I don't know where the Vote count is and I don't feel right voting without being read up. As things people do make you think and reconsider.

[Naomi-Tan]

I am confirm as of right now I have no intent of pushing you and if your content remains consistent post page 22 Im pretty certain that won't change. You may been one of my later reads but I been Green reading you for at least 12 pages. (though I don't have my notes the precise time)

Hmm.

What did you see that changed from your initial impressions up to page 12?

Im guessing you mean in reference to Kairal. Their content stepped up. at page 5 (125 posts in) they had only really made a few one line statements and a series of tripple posts at the very tip. Post that point we had a lot of good discussion which helped me make my green read after. Posts like this one;

Sheeping discussion. Personally I've never really understood the concept. The whole reason I make arguments is in order to persuade people. I want them to go 'Oh that's a convincing argument that X is scum, so I'll vote for them too'. To me sheeping seems like successful persuasion. On the other hand last game scum did blatantly use my argument, everyone else called them out for it and lynched them. So it seems it is a scumtell. It's a weird thing that's for sure.

Anyway right now we have 2 votes on AJ (from Massive and Io) and I don't see any reasoning provided for either. Mind explaining? Personally I looked through his ISO and he looks fine to me. By which I mean he has a reasonable number of posts and doesn't seem afraid to create solid interactions with people, and is actively creating content. Now sure my reads are often poop as previously established but if you post persuasive arguments as to why he should be lynched maybe I'll vote him too :p.

As red you'd have no real reason to make people out to be less red for easily ML's So it makes sense to me that their Red.

[Naomi-Tan]

To that end culted repeatedly fits the pattern of someone with the appropriate timing for scum. His activity is good in the beginning- once it becomes clear that scum are winning handily his activity drops. His reads line up with Flubber (on Jin specifically) but he frequently tries to avoid mentioning him. When he does he's always convinced he's town, a read which I'm not sure anyone else in town has. Right after I say I'm not sure culted is scum because the best path for scum right now is to try and lynch me, he jumps into the thread with a crappy scum read on me. He continues to try and throw doubt on a cop claim with no counter. Incidentally if IamI was trying to set up a massive claim why does he specifically tell the cop not to reveal soon? Surely that's the exact opposite of what he and massive would need?

None of this is a smoking gun but it all adds up.

Incidentally Flubber has a post in caps where he makes it clear the word he used was pathetic, not apathetic. I'm not quite sure why you two are both misreading that.

I dislike this post. For the sheer reason that this game travelled over the holiday season and around that time of year everyone gets more busy with IRL stuff so there would be a drop of activity for either alignment.

[Naomi-Tan]

3.) The reveal was pointless. At no pressure to lynch either MDS or Massive, he reveals cop?

Thanks for repeating my issue with it (Or what I was trying to establish) Now whos the one copying.

[Naomi-Tan]

1) How do we know they don't have an RB? Without any flips we have no way of knowing what scum do or don't have.

2) How is this beneficial to scum massive? He'd obviously prefer to produce a 'guilty' result on lylo to get a win.

3) If he waited past today it'd be lylo and it would become hard to believe. Scum could counterclaim and make it a 50/50 (and generally I'd say people will lynch the original claimaint rather than the counter)

But really why risk dying (given that he can't be sure we don't actually have an even cop) for the benefit of... clearing two people who weren't likely to be lynched today anyway. As you note there was no pressure.

As it stands though all he did (going off what AJ said) was set himself up to be shot. No one was suspecting MDS and though Massive has had heat over the days it benefits a town PR such as cop to wait to be forced to claim (at L-1) but given the situation it doesn't make sense to me to not hold back.

[Naomi-Tan]

Welp... Its official I'm getting paranoid about AJ being red. Reading 526 and all Im thinking of is how he is pushing me in the present with things I don't like and defending my red reads in the past.

[Naomi-Tan]

Welp... Its official I'm getting paranoid about AJ being red. Reading 526 and all Im thinking of is how he is pushing me in the present with things I don't like and defending my red reads in the past.

You know what no. Its just paranoia Aj is still probs green.

[massive]

As red you'd have no real reason to make people out to be less red for easily ML's So it makes sense to me that their Red.

What drives me nuts about Naomi is she has no attention to what she's saying. She said the above explaining her town read on Kairal. Unfortunately it says he's "red" which in her parlance means he's scum. Is this another dumb scumslip and they're partners, or is this just sloppy? I'm gun shy now because I've attacked her in the past for sloppy stuff like this and she was town. But I also feel like she isn't going to pay better attention unless she suffers continuously for it.

[Naomi-Tan]

As red you'd have no real reason to make people out to be less red for easily ML's So it makes sense to me that their Red.

What drives me nuts about Naomi is she has no attention to what she's saying. She said the above explaining her town read on Kairal. Unfortunately it says he's "red" which in her parlance means he's scum. Is this another dumb scumslip and they're partners, or is this just sloppy? I'm gun shy now because I've attacked her in the past for sloppy stuff like this and she was town. But I also feel like she isn't going to pay better attention unless she suffers continuously for it.

Oh yeah Good typo catch. Well the former statement obviously is referencing something there not doing in the selected post. So yeah. I meant green.

[Naomi-Tan]

[quote=Newman]

Unvote Cloud/Shadow

Vote MDS

[/quote]

Not sure if your reading along still but; USE A COLON!

Seriously. Its how I search for votes and things said to a mod. as there included with the automatic taggs. VOTE: and UNVOTE: not without the colon

[Naomi-Tan]

Unvote Cloud/Shadow

Vote MDS

Not sure if your reading along still but; USE A COLON!

Seriously. Its how I search for votes and things said to a mod. as there included with the automatic taggs. VOTE: and UNVOTE: not without the colon

EBWODP -_-

[Naomi-Tan]

As red you'd have no real reason to make people out to be less red for easily ML's So it makes sense to me that their Red.

What drives me nuts about Naomi is she has no attention to what she's saying. She said the above explaining her town read on Kairal. Unfortunately it says he's "red" which in her parlance means he's scum. Is this another dumb scumslip and they're partners, or is this just sloppy? I'm gun shy now because I've attacked her in the past for sloppy stuff like this and she was town. But I also feel like she isn't going to pay better attention unless she suffers continuously for it.

I remember that game but not much from yourself. Vediths barrage that broke me is the only thing that stands out in my mind about that game.

[Naomi-Tan]

I think the other thing that REALLY irritates me about the flubbs // massive thing is how flubbs had their vote on massive all of Day 1 (or at least upto where I am located) and had multiple oppertunities to push what they felt was there red read (if their green and massive is either alignment) but didn't. but also they didn't push there miss lynch, (if their red and massive is green) Which leads me to the odd conclusion that they know each others alignments.

Okay Let me make this a bit clearer by running threw all 4 situations

• [Green Flubs, Green Massive] Not knowing the alignment of massive and thinking there red, they would pick up and push things as they happen with the rest of Green

•[Green Flubs, Red Massive] Not knowing the alignment of massive and thinking there red, they would pick up and push things as they happen with the rest of Green

•[Red Flubs, Green Massive] Wanting a miss lynch they push whenever they think they can get away with it. pushing softly and edging them out.

•[Red Flubs, Red Massive] Voting them for distance but not really putting heart into lynching them as you want them alive.

[Naomi-Tan]

@MOD: Flubs hasn't posted in over 2 days