Pick Your Power: Double Deck (GAME OVER)

[Vecna]

In other words; Either fish is right, or he's scum with dreal

[Maxous]

I think it's Fish and Dreal.
I agree it's ridiculous.

@Gerry:

you want to get in here and start fucking obvtowning to make this easy?

[Fishythefish]

Fish/Drealmerz:

Did Maxous ask you both to pass along the contents of your PT?
If yes, why did you refuse to share?

He did (more or less... not full contents, but at least some posts). I'm going to share (here), when I get home in about 3 hours. When I asked the mod about sharing before, they said mass quoting was not ok, and there are some hefty posts in there, so sharing takes way more effort than can be done in 5 minute posts from a phone, which is where I've been since the end of the day. I realise this is a crappy time to be inactive, but I'll have a good run at this game tonight.

[Maxous]

We don't need mass quotes.
Just a properly explained basis for the 100% town read in a lylo situation.
"Just trust me " isn't cutting it

[Fishythefish]

Yeah, I get that. But if you are saying that is easy - it isn't. Try imaging how difficult it would be to explain a strong read you have to someone who can't see the thread.

[drealmerz7]

So now for the real question in this game: I asked max several times in our PT to convince either Drealmerz or Fish to paste/convey what happened in the Drealmerz + Fish PT. We need to know how the two of you can townread eachother so hard

Both of them refused. WHY on earth would you refuse this as town with 48hour lylo coming up?

um, no, I didn't refuse. I told fishy to do/share whatever he thought was best and when I talked to max and explained my read on fishy he didn't ask for more or say anything like "that's not sufficient" or argue against it or anything, and I got the sense he was decided to be scum-reading fishy+me regardless of what I told him, which seemed to come out of nowhere a bit when he said it to me in the PT

just to be more thorough:

Fish/Drealmerz:

Did Maxous ask you both to pass along the contents of your PT?
If yes, why did you refuse to share?

I don't know about that phrasing of "pass along the contents" - that sounds like you think he was asking for an entire replication of the PT

my understanding of what he asked for was "what in the PTs makes us TR each other?" - I explained to him that the majority of my fishy read wasn't even based from the PT, but that the exchanges in the PT simply re-enforced/re-affirmed the read I had on fishy (which I'd had pretty much all game and it just has been re-strengthended through the game) - was this not sufficient maxous? others do you want more? I can go find posts from the PT and try to summarize and explain my TR if you want / think is helpful

there's absolutely nothing I refuse to share - if maxous feels that there is he's either misunderstanding or misrepping

my view on the situation is that gerry+maxous are the scumteam, and we simply chose wrong BOTH

[drealmerz7]

oops pressed submit somehow...

[drealmerz7]

my view on the situation is that gerry+maxous are the scumteam, and we simply chose wrong BOTH times yesterday

it doesn't fucking help when two townies essentially give up - seriously, what the fuck was that?????? it was 5v2 after the TWIE kill and we could have won with 2 correct lynches or been SO MUCH BETTER OFF with 1 correct, and both mislynchee refuse to put up a fight?!?!?

vecna presents a very valid case on grey and he's just like "whatever?! enjoy losing" ?!?!?!?!?!!? it's been a long game with lots of hard work put into it by a lot of people, and to be like that is just fucking disgusting - grey is a PL for me moving forward in future games, it's unacceptable - and I'm even more frusrtated because I was pretty set on wanting maxous as the 2nd lynch, and then grey just was a scumfuck-as-town

sooo, being SO off on dunnstral and both flips being town made me re-evaluate gerry quite a bit, and I have to concede that I was simply wrong about him being dumbtowngerry and he's just been riding that defense for a while and quietly laughing at me the whole time

look at the votecounts on the lynch wagons

Dunnstral (4) - Maxous, drealmerz7, gerryoat, Vecna

-Grey- (4) - Vecna, -Grey-, drealmerz7, Fishythefish

maxous insistant on the dunnstral lynch (me being his beard taking the forefront of the attention around the dunnstral lynch) - at that point it seemed at least partially accepted that maxous was likely the 2nd lynch, and so he's making sure to at least get 1 town lynched first - scumbuddy gerry right there with him

then things take a turn towards grey and his behavior is so damning max+gerry just stay off the wagon knowing it's likely to go through and then will flip town and that it's best to not be on the 2nd mislynch if they can help it - grey voting himself made it all the much easier

I really did analyze fishy and the potentiality for him being scum - and it just doesn't make any sense, he's an undeniable town power-house and that you are trying to push him as scum is suspect in itself

[Fishythefish]

I'm now here, and will be active for the next 5 hours or so. First, on dreal, a quick timeline of our hood and the bits that really jumped out at me as obvtown. Happy to give more detail on anything that jumps out as interesting. Here's the first page summarised:

--- dreal neighbourised me on Saturday January 21st ----

1-3) Hello from dreal: dreal tells me I'm his strongest TR, discusses alternative options for the neighbourise (Vecna, Max), and tells me Max has neighbourised him.
4) My first post; a bit of a thought dump. I tell dreal I think he's town based on the thread and the king of diamonds pick. I say we should lynch Kison rather than TWIE, and give a full set of reads (which, looking back, were pretty damn accurate).
5) dreal posts something not terribly interesting about Max being more likely to shuffle as scum. I can't recall the context for this, if any.
6-8) dreal asks about why I prefer Kison; dreal is leaning TWIE and felt that TWIE might be manipulating me in the thread in our "live" conversation. Here's the first bit of a post that really pinged me as town; most of it is paraphrased because I'm paranoid about being mod-killed, but I've kept a key bit verbatim (italicised):

I think TWIE is more likely scum, but I need to think it through more (which I'd prefer to do with you in here if you agree? we could do it in the main thread, but

I just don't feel "safe" there

. especially with the high proportion of scum in the thread)

I really empathised with this sentiment at this moment. The thread felt a really

difficult

place to share opinions as town; the game was near half scum, and TWIE was being rather difficult as well.

In the same posts, dreal floated the idea of a LUV lynch. He made the points that Max was a potential ally, we'd get loads more info from a LUV lynch than a TWIE/Kison lynch, and LUV was his top SR.
9-13) dreal does some wider scumhunting, comparing Max to Vecna; to summarise; he thinks Vecna is scumhunting more and that if either, Max is more likely scum. At this point, we are both in a tricky place with reads, where PoE means that some decent townreads are likely scum. dreal seems to be struggling to fill a scumteam, and considering lots of options.
14) I say that Max's decision to shuffle or not is pretty much NAI given the hood convos around it. I explain why I prefer Kison to TWIE as a lynch; questioning the cop guilty is probably overthinking things. I say TWIE+Kison is unlikely. I say LUV is a good idea, we can get Max on board, and I'll push it in the main thread.
15-27) We go back and forth a bit on Max and Vecna. dreal asks about our PT; I say it started well, has stalled slightly, but that's as much my fault as Max's. Not much interesting here.

By this point:
- dreal has pinged me a few times as town; the best example above.
- Our hood has driven a scumlynch through.
- dreal is obviously genuinely uncertain about who scum are, and is really trying. He's throwing lots of stuff out, but very clearly in a "thinking things through" kind of way rather than a "see what sticks" kind of way.

--- Night 6 began on Monday January 23rd ---

[Fishythefish]

Hood summary 2/3

30: I say things will be tricky if gerry and Dunn are both town, as they are going to be hard to break from their tunnelling
31: dreal says he'll break the tunnelling with willpower and shouting. He is energised by the scum lynch, and determined to win. This is one of many places where dreal reads super-genuine. This is either because a) he is less inhibited in the thread, and his towniness shines through, or b) he has awesome acting talents. I'm very sure it's a). If b), I don't see why he wouldn't present this face in-thread.
32: Not quite sure what I'm replying to, but I say Grey is likely town; the replace-in-and-shoot play would be a bolder scumplay than I've seen (on a side note, it is very painful reading back all the correct reads on townies we mislynched yesterday).
33: I wring my hands about TWIE/Kison a bit more, noting that Kison was all over LUV early game.
34/35: dreal resolves to be more active in the thread; I egg him on. At this point, I was really keen that dreal carried over some of his energy to the thread - especially if I died - to both drive lynches and be read as town. He kinda has, but in a more wally and less convincing way.
36: dreal sorts through his reads. He has gerry as very town (he knows badtowngerry, as he refers to gerry), me as very town, Vecna as town, Kison as town, TWIE as scum, and 2 of Dunn/Grey/Max as scum. History has not been kind to these reads.
37: dreal suggests that Uzi shooting Dunn would have been good if Dunn and gerry were town, so perhaps Dunn is scum.
38: I say that if Dunn/gerry is town-on-town, scum wouldn't want to defuse it.

--- Day 7 began on Wednesday 25th January ---

39: Slightly oddly, dreal suggests a gerry kill today as gerry can't be in LYLO.
40: I say that would be weird, given dreal's townread (which I'm kinda sheeping at this point, as a pretty crap reader of players like gerry)
41: dreal says that he almost called for no voting in the thread. Just a little window into things he's thought but not said.
42: A quick and rambling post from dreal, mostly saying we shouldn't lynch gerry, and that Grey should shoot Dunn (which was impossible)
43,44: no content
45: dreal can imagine lynching gerry after all if I'm still hard-townreading Dunn. Slightly off-the-cuff suggestion of lynching them both.

dreal did nothing big during this day to make me thing he was town. The tone is convincing - it reads very much as super-honest stream-of-conciouisness stuff - but the content is meh.

--- Night 7 began on Friday February 3rd ---

[Fishythefish]

Hood summary 3/3

48: I apologise for my stupid hammer. I say we should come out of the gate fast on D8, as it's 48HLYLO. I say for me, it's super simple - not dreal, not Max+Vecna, so gerry.
49: dreal is very annoyed at the double townflip. He says:
* He was half expecting/hoping the game would be over
* Dunn and Grey did nothing and (summarising) were at fault for their lynches
* The flips have really thrown him. He wonders about me being scum, and why Vecna and I are still alive. He asks if I think he was right/wrong about his "trying to implicate fishy/Vecna/dreal" post.
This is another post in the "amazing acting or town" category. The post reads so much like it comes from town who was riding high, has been brought crashing down by some townflips, and is now struggling.
50: I say why I'm town. I'll break this out into a separate post, since the reasons are relevant to everyone in the game.
51: dreal says thinking I'm scum was probably all-over-the-place paranoia.
52-58: I do basically nothing (this is all last night). dreal posts a few things; the conclusion of which is Max+gerry.

[Fishythefish]

So, to recap:

- dreal posts things which show a mindset which a) is town and b) would be hard to fake as scum. If he's scum in that PT, he's *brilliant* scum, and I don't see why he'd be so much better than in-thread.
- dreal is clearly thinking really hard about who is scum. He's definitely not finding this easy, but the scumhunting is obvious.
- dreal and I drove the Uzi lynch, which wouldn't otherwise have happened.

dreal is town.

[Maxous]

you know what, Fishy.

if you're scum, you can have your win

[Maxous]

i'm not voting you

[Maxous]

Vecna, are we going for Dreal or Gerry?

[Fishythefish]

50: I say why I'm town. I'll break this out into a separate post, since the reasons are relevant to everyone in the game.

Here's why I'm obviously town:

- I rigged the jack of spades. This, entirely predictably, gave town a sane cop investigation, which is the reason Transcend never got mislynched.
- I rigged the two of clubs. This, entirely predictably, prevented a scum kill.
- I rigged the jack for a night, and the two for a day. At night, the two would have killed ICs and not prevented a scumkill. At day, the jack would have given us the terrible voting shenanigans spades provide.
- I was on LUV all game, in a way that made him much more likely to die, and drove his final lynch.
- I called out both the cards we know scum lied about - the Ace and Six of Clubs - as scum, early and often. Scum would not have outed these strategies; this lead to TWIE's investigation on Kison being a guilty, Uzi being lynched as the obvious AoC holder, and contributed to Maria's lynch (though honestly I can't remember how much; it drove my vote but I doubt it was critical).

It's quite possible my actions in this game have done more for the town than anyone else.

Pedit: cheers, Max. I'm really, really not scum. Also, nor is dreal! If you end up in LYLO with him, do not vote for him.

[Fishythefish]

Vecna, are we going for Dreal or Gerry?

I can kind of see this having a bad effect, but... dreal is lynchproof today.

[Maxous]

Pedit: cheers, Max. I'm really, really not scum. Also, nor is dreal! If you end up in LYLO with him, do not vote for him.

so you want me to vote for Vecna?

that's gonna kill my soul

[Fishythefish]

Max: well. Preplanning 3 person LYLO is silly and plays into scum hands, but if it's you/Vecna/dreal (and you are town) I want you to have a good hard think about the nightkill, tear your hair out, and then make the right call. I'll be doing the same if I'm in

any

LYLO tomorrow.

Fish/Drealmerz:

Did Maxous ask you both to pass along the contents of your PT?
If yes, why did you refuse to share?

Just to clarify on this, the interaction Max and I had was:

Max: could you copy/paste (or paraphrase) a couple of posts from the other PT?
Fishy: Yep, I'll just check with dreal
Fishy: Yep, I'll do it when I have time to do it properly

I'm sorry I chose a crappy time to be low-activity for 2 days.

[Maxous]

well dreal is lynchproof so no point arguing about that

Dreal seems to want Gerry lynched,
Fishy does.

Vecna, you on board?
If yes then let's just bite the bullet and get it over with.

[Fishythefish]

I see no reason for delay (but won't vote before Vecna weighs in).

[drealmerz7]

some words from gerry wouldn't be the worst ?

[Fishythefish]

Well, I don't see any words from gerry as likely to change my mind. But sure, I guess I'm supposed to be in favour of discussion and stuff rather than quicklynching. Let's not get anywhere near the 48 hour mark, though.

Speaking of which: deadline is 4 in the morning for me. I'll be around briefly in 12 hours, then for a few hours this time tomorrow.

[gerryoat]

hi. i think it's max 1 scum. not sure about the other. maybe vecna. but i kinda tr dreal here and i think fishy is kinda townie idk

[Vecna]

Alright, some last words before I go to bed....

-Drealmerz is NOT lynchproof today
-We should indeed not wait untill near the deadline in case shenanigans happen and someone claiming to support a lynch suddenly withholds his vote. Some urgency is indeed required
-Ill support a Gerry lynch since literally everyone seems to want it and max has ruled out a Fish lynch. If fish + drealmerz are scum, we loose by default since I doubt gerrry is going to vote any of them as well so we might as well get through it quickly then. Im still pretty sure that either Fish or Dreal is bussing here and im not really too keen on Fish giving out voting advice for tomorrow. Either way, im pretty sure ill win a 3way against any bussing scum here regardless of fish's advice, but we'll see about that tomorrow.
-Fish has been my #1 townread pretty much all game, but Maxous as scum is becoming more and more unlikely here from my point of view. Scum Maxous wouldnt just state he wont lynch fish here, and he wouldnt just sheep another one of his townreads. Remember this tomorrow Fish if im the kill instead tonight - especially since me being the kill would make little sense, unless im correct.