Mini 535: Pick Your Poison 2 (Game Over!)

[Patrick]

Votecount

Ether (1) -- ckillor
skitzer (4) -- Porochaz, JDodge, JordanA24, YvonneSeer
YvonneSeer (1) -- Gorrad
perfect628 (1) -- Ether
scotmany12 (1) -- Bookitty

Not voting: scotmany12, skitzer, perfect628, Lulubelle
12 alive, 7 to lynch.

[Porochaz]

I would agree with a YS lynch but find skitzer worse I want to hear from ckillor before anything else though

[Patrick]

Setael replaces ckillor. Please spell her name correctly.

[Setael]

Hi everyone. Patrick seems to think I'm sensitive, which means I probably complain too much. I don't care so much about name spellation, but if you call me "he" I will be irked. I, however, reserve the right to mess up any of your gender.

After reading the thread, I think skitzer's assumption that we have a weak doc is being blown way out of proportion. It makes sense that mafia would choose that role to be in the setup and I think a lot of players were working under that assumption. So to call it "implied knowledge" and say skitzer is definitely scum for assuming that is quite a stretch. I recognize that's not the only point against skitzer, but at the moment I'm preferring a few others. Like Perfect.

Eh I'm not sure how much I believe skitzer. He seemed to just brush off the accusation. Doesn't really warant a vote, nut FoS:skitzer. Also, Unvote:JDodge. Random voting seems to be coming to a close.

Eh, whatever. skitzer is becoming increasingly suspicious, especially b/c of what jdodge caught. I won't have much time til Wednesday, so I'll hold off my vote. I'll also post my thoughts then.

So Perfect says he doesn't believe skitzer and that he seems to be brushing off the accusation, but then just FOSes. Then a couple real days later, Perfect says skitzer is getting "increasingly suspicious". Not only is it odd that he still doesn't vote, but nothing really changed between these 2 posts so how is anything increasing? JDodge had already made his point about the assumption before the first post, and skitzer only posted a couple of short practically content-less posts between Perfect's 2 posts. Perfect seems to want to support the wagon without having to contribute a vote, or actually read the case on skitzer at all. In fact, Perfect has only posted a whopping THREE times since his random vote. His first 2 I've already quoted. Here's his third:

Ok, I suppose I understand the vote on me. I think I may have thought it was already L-2 and didn't want to make it L-1. I know that sounds lame, but i'm pretty sure that's what happened. Simple case of lack of attention. I'll try and reread by tomorrow, at the latest Tuesday, got a lot of studying to do!

He has done no scum hunting, has pretty much lurked and avoided being in the spotlight all game, and has not provided suspicions other than following those who were suspicious of skitzer. This. This is a good wagon.

Ether, when you say this bandwagon is opportunistic, are you talking about opportunistic scum or opportunistic town? If you're talking about scum, then at least one scum is on the wagon right now, unless you're suggesting that the wagon is only town-filled.

But I do agree with you about perfect628. Voteless support indeed, good call.

Ironically, this is Yvonne giving "voteless support" of Ether's case on Perfect. Could be distancing. I would be willing to vote Yvonne as well.

unvote;

vote: Perfect

[Patrick]

Perfect628 has requested replacement. I'm looking.

[scotmany12]

Did he give a reason why?

[Patrick]

Lack of time.

[YvonneSeer]

Half of you would agree to lynching me but there's only one vote on me. Are you all waiting for someone to get the bandwagon going?

[JDodge]

i am

[Setael]

I'll volunteer. At least until we get a replacement for Perfect,

unvote; vote: YvonneSeer

[Porochaz]

unvote vote ckillor

Post or die!

[Porochaz]

For the uneducated, who are bound to ask me why...

AH. sorry bout the inactiveity. i will definently post something today. i promise on the ghosts of christmas past, present and future

Find the next post!

[scotmany12]

Setael replaces ckillor. Please spell her name correctly.

Yeah chaz, might want to read a little bit...

[Porochaz]

damn

unvote

I hate everyone

[JordanA24]

JDodge

: I completely agree with his opinions of a scum roleblocker in his first post. If a power role is forced to claim, it gives the Mafia a decent alternative to killing them, should a Doctor still be around.

I also agreed with his vote on Skitzer, though this post looked a little off:

Guys, skitzer just practically admitted to being scum. Lynch kplzthxbai.

Unvote, vote: skitzer

You should always post reasons for voting IMO, rather than just saying "kplzthxbai". Still, he did post his reasons in the next post when questioned, so it wasn't too scummy.

Because skitzer's lone tell is still more solid than the various points against perfect.

Agreed, but Yvonne's play is worse.

i see them as roughly equal; if the skitzer wagon loses more steam i'll probably switch my vote over to her

This post I didn't like much, switching your vote as soon as a wagon dies down is very opportunistic IMO.

Overall, I generally agree with most of what JDodge has said, so far, I believe him to be town.

Gorrad

Nothing to be picked up on in the Role Voting Stage

Yeah, Ether, I don't quite understand either. You voted Bookitty, then in your next vote it seemed to me like you were defending her. I get your confusion, but I don't see how it's a scumtell.

Vote: Ether

.

Not sure I agree with this. She wasn't really defending Bookitty in her post. She made a point for her, but I wouldn't say she defended her.

Scotmany, if you're not sure we have a vig, what DO you think we have?

Why shouldn't we have a Vig? Why do you think we do?

I agreed with his post against YS.

I find Gorrad reasonably neutral so far

YvonneSeer

:

Also, if we have a Vig and he targets the GF, wouldn't he know that he hit a GF since his NK won't show up? Of course, the Vig must keep in mind that there is the possibility a doc visited his target but... Ah, never mind then.

What was the point of this paragraph?

Personally, I think they gave us a cop (take note sanity is not guaranteed), vig and masoniser as well.

Not a Weak Doc? I'm almost certain the scum gave us that.

Okay, 3 votes on skitzer now. We need more to get this wagon going.

Do you think Skitzer was scummy then?

Hey town, it seems that I've drawn some attention to myself. The main reason why I'm jumping bandwagons is because I'm trying out a different playstyle in this game. You might not believe me, but it's true. I've never had much pressure on me and I want to see how I respond when the spotlight's on me.

The second reason is mostly because I want to generate a different discussion. From what I could see, it was mostly an Ether vs Bookitty thing going on (which I think is blown out of proportion) and most of the players were lurking (some still are). I'm not speaking for the other players, but I think a lot of us couldn't add anything to that discussion, and therefore didn't post anything of substance. Well, at least that was how it was for me.

Well, I'm explaining my actions and if you still find them scummy, feel free to put some votes on me and continue to interrogate me. I won't pretend that jumping bandwagons is pro-town but I ain't the scum you're hunting for.

How the hell is acting scummy if you are town beneficial to town? All we do is chase after you, wasting time and pages, on questioning a townie, which allows the scum to go about unchecked. And if we lynch you because of it, and you're town, then we waste a lynch, and the town is much worse off for it. I don't really believe you're town deliberatly acting scummy.

Yeah well, I have to try out a different playstyle sooner or later. Also, I'm not saying that what I'm doing is definitely pro-town. I'm just trying to spark a new discussion which is starting to work, because we're now shifting focus onto other players instead of letting them slip under the radar.

Yes it's sparked new discussion. It's about you. If you're town, that's potentially very damaging. And what if we were on the right track before you interrupted? All you're doing is stopping the town from discussing about scum and making them talk about you, if what you claim is true, you're town, and you're potentially letting scum slip under the cracks by causing a distraction.

Ether, when you say this bandwagon is opportunistic, are you talking about opportunistic scum or opportunistic town? If you're talking about scum, then at least one scum is on the wagon right now, unless you're suggesting that the wagon is only town-filled.

Is this a Loaded Question I see before me?

Actually, I see scotmany as a fence-sitter along with a few others in this game. You know who you are. Nothing scummy about that though, but it could be scum watching town lynch themselves.

This just contradicts itself, if it could point to scum, then it is a scumtell, so it's scummy. I wouldn't mid if you shared who you think these fencesitters are, if you want to spark more discussion.

She's very scummy IMO.

TDP/Lulubelle

: While she was here, I found TDP quite protown, she seemed to be trying to scumhunt and making fair observations about Ether and especially Yvonne. Nothing to analyse from Lulu yet.

ckillor/Setael

: I mostly agreed with his choices for Mafia Roles, though RB wasn't such a good second choice IMO. Though he did change this to Encryptor, though this was after it became a universally popular choice, scum trying to fit it perhaps?

Plus points for questioning Yvonne's post about forming a bandwagon on Skitzer. Though he was then very inactive for an extended period. OK, the first week was due to the game dropping from the Watch List, I can accept that, but then he went for another week before his next post, another "Sorry for not posting for ages" posts. Personally, after a weeks abscence from the game, especially due to it dropping from the Watch List, I'd try to post something meaningful pretty quickly. I get a feeling he may have been deliberatly avoiding the game, especially his second apology post was his last.

I liked Setael's first post though, not only did she mention her opinions on Skitzer and Yvonne, the two main topics at the time, but she also suggested an alternative and very reasonable target for our suspicions as well. I'd figure an opprtunistic scum may well just stick with mainly commenting about Skitz and Yvonne, but Set could be smart scum who is aware of this. But overall, I liked the post. Though, tbh, it doesn't quite counterbalance ckillor's inactivity, which I found pretty scummy.

Porochaz

: Went for the same options as ckillor for scum poweroles, which were farily decent. But unlike ckillor, he didn't change his second option to the most popular one at the time. Then again, he didn't post again in the Powerole Votes, so it may be a case of not being around rather than being determined to stick to his guns.

His early few gameposts seemed to focus a lot on Skitzer, before FOSing Yvonne. In other words, he only focused his posts on those who were under the spotlight at the time. He's also somewhat buddying up to Ether, one of the more experienced players in this game. He has more recently began to make other players the subject of small parts of his posts, but it's still mainly been about Skitzer and Yvonne. I also found this post sort of interesting.

I would agree with a YS lynch but find skitzer worse

I want to hear from ckillor before anything else though

When you compare it with the votecount at the time.

[snip]
skitzer (4) -- Porochaz, JDodge, JordanA24, YvonneSeer
YvonneSeer (1) -- Gorrad
[snip]

Interesting how he finds Skitz more suspicious than Yvonne when there are much more votes on Skitz.

And his last couple of posts raises my suspicions as well

unvote vote ckillor

Post or die!

For the uneducated, who are bound to ask me why...

AH. sorry bout the inactiveity. i will definently post something today. i promise on the ghosts of christmas past, present and future

Find the next post!

Setael replaces ckillor. Please spell her name correctly.

Yeah chaz, might want to read a little bit...

damn

unvote

I hate everyone

Alright, so he votes ckillor for what he sees as avoiding the game, which is, I admit, scummy. What I find interesting is that he unvotes as soon as it's pointed out Setael has repaced him. Why the Unvote? Set's still got the same role as ckillor, so the evidence against her is still there. My theory is that he could be scum wanting to push a bandwagon on a inactive townie (he even said in his voting post "Post or Die!", and as soon as he realises that that's not going to happen, he hastily unvotes.

I can easily see him opportunistic scum.

perfect628

: I agree a lot with what Setael said about perfect. He does seem like he wants to avoid being linked with a Skitz lynch by not voting for him

Eh I'm not sure how much I believe skitzer. He seemed to just brush off the accusation. Doesn't really warant a vote, nut

FoS:skitzer

. Also,

Unvote:JDodge

. Random voting seems to be coming to a close.

If he doesn't believe what Skitz is saying, that means he thinks Skitz is lying, and that he's making stuff up to try and avoid coming under the spolight, which is very scummy, and definatly deserves a vote.

Eh, whatever. skitzer is becoming increasingly suspicious, especially b/c of what jdodge caught. I won't have much time til Wednesday, so I'll hold off my vote. I'll also post my thoughts then.

JDodge hadn't caught anything new about Skitz since your last post, and Skitz had only posted twice, both posts being pretty unremarkable IMO. I think he was pulling stuff out of his ass to back up his suspicions on Skitz. Also, if Skitz was even scummier than before, and before, in his eyes, he was blatently lying to try and avoid looking scummy, how was he still not voting him, it sounds like he has a really good case against Skitz.

Also just after Setael posted her case, perfect requested replacement, coincidence?

Another fair candidate for scum.

Skitzer

: In the powerole voting stage, he voted for the scum to have a Vig! I think the Vig ties with the Rolecop as the worst possible role we could have given to the scum, it was a potentially very damaging role to give them.

Yes, but I feel this game can live with one.

But now that I realize it: Ether, you voted for Bookitty because of random voting, and then you also noted the same point for me. I would think you would at least FoS both of us before voting to see if one did any more scumtells.

Unvote
FoS: Ether

Hmm, this is an interesting point, and one that I agree with Skitz. But why didn't you vote for Ether because of this? I'd say it was worthy of a vote.

Then we got to the whole Weak Doc thing. As JDodge pointed out, this may point to implied knowledge. And his "I thought she might be trying to get herself lynched" is bullshit, even a useless Doc is like a townie, and on the town's side, he's using craplogic to try and get out of a bad situation. And it was powerole-fishing as well, which makes it even worse IMO.

He hasn't posted since the 21st, though I suppose that could be due to Christmas.

Bookitty

: I think the whole issue about her powerole votes were blown out of proportion by Ether, I think she did change her mind about the Roleblocker, and I don't find her very scummy for it. A lot of her posts against Ether seemed very reasonable, and I feel she was just unfortunate to get picked out like that rather than her actually looking scummy.

I do disagree with this post though:

I am going to buck the trend and say that trying to provoke discussion and reaction by jumping on bandwagons is not really anti-town in my view. Especially in a situation where two people are arguing and derailing all other discussion, sometimes that is exactly what's needed to try to get back to some sort of normalcy.

This, I suppose, could be a reasonable argument in other situations, but not here, the way Yvonne was going about provoking discussion just made her look scummy, which, if she's town, is pointless, as it just deflects discussion and suspicion on a townie and off another 2 people, one of whom (or maybe even both, but here I find it unlikely for now) could be scum. The argument between you and Ether I admit was monopolizing the thread, but it may have led to somewhere useful for the town if you or Ether are scum.

I've found Bookitty mostly protown so far.

Scotmany

: Looking through his posts, the most notable thing I can find is that very few of them are notable, he just seems to be sitting there, usually going along with general opinion, sometimes disagreeing with ideas, sometimes asking people to respond to other people's questions, and generally not drawing attention to himself. This isn't as scummy as what Yvonne, Porochaz and Skitzer have done so far. Also, I notice he hasn't voted anyone at all in this game so far.

I think the only time he has deviated from the popular opinion at the time is when he said he thought Skitz was town, and this is kinda debatable, since the wagon on Skitz was dying down at the town.

I don't think he is the scummiest so far, but I've got an eye on him.

Ether

: I found her argument against Bookitty generally illogical, from what I can deduce, she seems to think Bookitty is scum for being indecisive. Apparently, this goes against her playstyle, but tbh, I think dismissing the possibility that she may have been genuinly indecisive because it's against her normal playstyle is as silly as suggesting that computers should never break down because most of the time they work. As I've said, she made a storm in a teacup as regards to Bookitty IMO. I have seen her play before, and she does seem to be this aggresive normally, but I'm not ignoring this entirely because of the playstyle thing, I think this whole Bookitty thing makes Ether look quite scummy, especially this here:

It is blazingly obvious that Bookitty is scum. Forget what I said about stretching the game out--please let's kill her already. Please let's at least

discuss

killing her already.

It's absolutely ridiculous considering the small case you have against her that you're suggesting we should consider lynching her for it.

I disagree with her views on Skitz, but some of her later posts do give a sort of townfeel.

To answer your question:

I'm still happiest with my Perfectvote, though. It's great. Why is he still alive?

9 pages isn't really a long enough Day 1, and so far this game has got plenty of potential for discussion before we bring it to a close, I think it'd be a very bad idea to lynch someone at the moment, as we're getting plenty of useful discussion right now.

I find Ether quite neutral atm.

Conclusion

: I still find Skitzer pretty scummy, though, tbh, not as much as some other players in this game, I get the feeling it could be playstyle rather than alignment that could be causing his poor play so far.

There's a pretty fair case against Perfect, but this depends on Skitzer being scum for a possible perfect-lynch to start looking realistic IMO.

For me, where my votes going is down to Yvonne and Porochaz, Yvonne has got plenty of small tells against her, and does look very tempting for my vote, but, Porochaz's seeming opportunism looks too scummy to pass up.

Unvote Vote: Porochaz

[Patrick]

Mizzy replaces perfect628. Welcome!

[Mizzy]

Hello! Reading posts up til this point...will post again when I am all caught up

[Mizzy]

Okay, caught up! Whew, there's been a ton of vote-switching and not a whole lot of what I consider honest scum-hunting in the first sets of pages, but I think the game's getting on track.

As to trying to atone for some of my predictor's posts that drew attention, he was obviously hurting on time (and so probably not giving things much attention) and I agree that when someone has that much suspicion on someone, you should vote and not sit on the FOS pot, as it were.

I, myself don't find skitzer all that scummy...it feels like there's been a few mountains made out of molehills and in trying to avoid a mislynch day 1, I'm going to watch him and see if he does anything else. 1 slip can be a mistake, pure and simple...2 can be a scumtell.

I also don't like YS's question about what kind of opportunistic wagon it was/is...opportunistic wagons in general aren't very pro-town in my eyes, but we honestly have no way of answering that question because how is town to know definitively which people in the wagon are scum and which aren't? We can only speculate.

Vote: Yvonne

I realize this may seem like it's an OMGUS vote, but I did give it careful consideration and read these posts more than once just to make sure. Misdirection or a real scum hunt?

As for Ether:

I'm still happiest with my Perfectvote, though. It's great. Why is he still alive?

Because lynching pro-town folk is a really stupid idea...unless of course, you're scum. Calm the heck down and stop zerging folks, before your opinion means nothing to anyone because everyone thinks you're coocoo. If you are pro-town, then you must know that one of the best things a townie can do is play it easy and make themselves heard in a sensible, logical manner. The LAST thing the town needs is a townie doing all the work for the scum.

IGMEOY: Ether

[Ether]

I'm undecided on the Seerwagon. It's an improvement from Skitzer, and I guess she could be scum...but Mizzy actually

is

scum. So the wagon is silly. (I don't, for the record, see her comment on Perfect as an associative tell--at least she

made

it.)

Ether, when you say this bandwagon is opportunistic, are you talking about opportunistic scum or opportunistic town? If you're talking about scum, then at least one scum is on the wagon right now, unless you're suggesting that the wagon is only town-filled.

I don't understand what you're asking. I think that supporting a big wagon for bad reasons is inherently scummy, and I think that this wagon is made of bad reasons.

Say something, though.

I don't really think you can complain when you come in accusing someone of being scum with counterintuitive reasoning, and they think your case is crap and wonder if you're scum as a result. I think that's a normal reaction.

That has nothing to do with the contradiction I actually quoted. Do you or do you not think my behavior toward you was

scumhunting?

Your quotes, which are mistimed, actually further that contradiction (scumhunting effort, remember). I'm confused by what your read on me actually

is

and where you're getting it.

That said, do you really want to derail the discussion back to this again?

I wasn't aiming to derail; I was pointing out a contradiction on your part as an aside. This time, the contradiction wasn't really something I was expecting to blow out. I pointed it out, and I expected you to clarify. You ignored it, and when I reminded you, you went on a tangent that doesn't seem to have anything to do with current events at all.

At this rate, when

can

I attack you?

It's absolutely ridiculous considering the small case you have against her that you're suggesting we should consider lynching her for it.

Please read the post (68) in which I make the "blazingly obvious" comment. I wasn't thrilled with her change of heart over the roleblocker, but that's not why I made it, as seems to be your impression. I said it based off of her OMGUSy responses. I was scummy because I got to the thread late and decided to find someone suspicious? I expected Bookitty to be an easy lynch?

Grr.

Hmm, this is an interesting point, and one that I agree with Skitz. But why didn't you vote for Ether because of this? I'd say it was worthy of a vote.

Um. I didn't vote Bookitty for random voting.

9 pages isn't really a long enough Day 1, and so far this game has got plenty of potential for discussion before we bring it to a close, I think it'd be a very bad idea to lynch someone at the moment, as we're getting plenty of useful discussion right now.

That isn't why I asked the question.

There's a pretty fair case against Perfect, but this depends on Skitzer being scum for a possible perfect-lynch to start looking realistic IMO.

Huh?

Because lynching pro-town folk is a really stupid idea...unless of course, you're scum. Calm the heck down and stop zerging folks, before your opinion means nothing to anyone because everyone thinks you're coocoo. If you are pro-town, then you must know that one of the best things a townie can do is play it easy and make themselves heard in a sensible, logical manner. The LAST thing the town needs is a townie doing all the work for the scum.

IGMEOY: Ether

You are

so

scum.

[Mizzy]

I'm undecided on the Seerwagon. It's an improvement from Skitzer, and I guess she could be scum...but Mizzy actually

is

scum. So the wagon is silly. (I don't, for the record, see her comment on Perfect as an associative tell--at least she

made

it.)

Right, because one post informational post gives you all the knowledge about me in the world. Good job at being wrong, again! *Claps*

You are

so

scum.

Prove it!

[Bookitty]

Okay, at this point, I'm getting the distinct impression that Ether is just picking out targets based on preconceived ideas. I never understood her attacks on me, but I know that expressing certainty and then attacking repeatedly is part of her playstyle. That certainty isn't always right, but I was willing for a time to write off her attacks on me as an honest attempt at scumhunting. That's why I didn't place my vote on her.

However, I do find it interesting that she is doing something in this game I haven't seen from her before. She's picking quotes of mine out of context and repeatedly demanding an explanation for each and every one of them, which I

think

is an attempt to keep me busy defending myself against her accusations so that I am distracted from the rest of the game. Her posts are unfocussed and unclear, not just to me, I think. Her insistence that every "aside" comment that she makes about me must be answered, when she's not making equal demands on other people, seems pretty odd to me as well.

She suggests a plan that seems designed to out a vig, if one exists, and when I point out this fact, simply abandons it.

It's actually not that great. The best plan is probably just "let the vig do whatever it feels like and hope the rest of the town doesn't find other ways to claim not-vig."

By her own standards, that's an unexplained change of heart.

I don't like this comment to Gorrad: "Bad motto, by the way. Smart towngoers get nightkilled." The wording sounds threatening in an odd way, and is she arguing that towngoers should behave stupidly? Because that's the alternative.

The Perfect/Mizzy case seems odd, as well. It nearly looks like bussing to me. Ether's pushing a case on Perfect, who seemed pretty disconnected from the game, and Mizzy votes for... YvonneSeer, and says it might be OMGUS? If you're going to own up to OMGUS, why not put your vote on the person who most actively pushed your case?

The whole thing feels wrong. As Ether would say, I don't like the "vibe", so I'm going to:

unvote; vote Ether

[Mizzy]

The Perfect/Mizzy case seems odd, as well. It nearly looks like bussing to me. Ether's pushing a case on Perfect, who seemed pretty disconnected from the game, and Mizzy votes for... YvonneSeer, and says it might be OMGUS? If you're going to own up to OMGUS, why not put your vote on the person who most actively pushed your case?

Nonono, I said I can see how it might LOOK like it's an OMGUS vote, but it's not. I thought it through based on my perceptions of her actions.

[Porochaz]

Porochaz

:
Alright, so he votes ckillor for what he sees as avoiding the game, which is, I admit, scummy. What I find interesting is that he unvotes as soon as it's pointed out Setael has repaced him. Why the Unvote? Set's still got the same role as ckillor, so the evidence against her is still there. My theory is that he could be scum wanting to push a bandwagon on a inactive townie (he even said in his voting post "Post or Die!", and as soon as he realises that that's not going to happen, he hastily unvotes.

I can easily see him opportunistic scum.

I only voted for ckillor due to not posting for ages after he said he was going to post the same day. Setael made a post, therefore I unvoted. You however say that you agree with me yet you use my reasoning to decide Im scummy...

[skitzer]

Jordan, to recap your explanation:

I thought universal conversation would be more powerful to scum instead of one more kill. Maybe when nearing the end game, yes, that would be extremely powerful, but if we as a town played efficiently, we wouldn't have to worry about that threat. Plus, the vig vote didn't even count because it was nullified after the Godfather was chosen.

I did not vote for Ether because I felt it just wasn't a big enough reason. I don't vote unless I have an extremely good reason.

The weak doc thing was definitely stupidity, and to sum it up: at that time, I thought YS's play was strange.

I hadn't posted because I didn't have much of anything to go on. Right now, Ether makes me somewhat suspicious due to his spontaneous suspicion of Mizzy.

[Patrick]

Guys, I'd just like to point out that I'm eating christmas pudding ice cream right now. Yep.