Micro 677: Double Day Unlimited in Wifom City - Town Win

[Hiraki]

Unvote: Not_Mafia

[nydushermain]

the point is that if you truly believed that he is "most likely scum", then your default assumption would not be that he is "voting people for the hell of it".

@Titus

gimme a VC

Uhh no. Look at his previous posts.

VOTE: Hiraki
VOTE: Towns Last Hope
VOTE: Lycanfire
VOTE: GuiltyLion
VOTE: TierShift
VOTE: Alisae
VOTE: Not_Mafia
VOTE: Martha Zolanski
VOTE: Pepchoninga nydushermain

VOTE: Lycan
VOTE: Martha
VOTE: GL

Regardless of his alignment, he's voting for the hell of it. Literally. The only vote he probably made with some sort of intent was the OMGUS vote on me which if he's town, he doesn't even believe given

I'll unvote you if you unvote me

that quote.

[GuiltyLion]

1) You're assuming the votes in 168 have no reason whatsoever

2) I don't think scum

can

just "vote for the hell of it". They already know who is scum and who is not. Their wincon is to stay alive and lynch enough people outside of their faction to achieve majority. Therefore, if you believe that someone is scum, that belief should be accompanied by another logically-consequent belief that they want to steer lynches towards people who are not on their team. But you implicitly assumed that N_M legitimately had no reason to vote the way he did at all, which reads to me like you might already know that he is uninformed about people's alignments.

[nydushermain]

1) You're assuming the votes in 168 have no reason whatsoever

2) I don't think scum

can

just "vote for the hell of it". They already know who is scum and who is not. Their wincon is to stay alive and lynch enough people outside of their faction to achieve majority. Therefore, if you believe that someone is scum, that belief should be accompanied by another logically-consequent belief that they want to steer lynches towards people who are not on their team. But you implicitly assumed that N_M legitimately had no reason to vote the way he did at all, which reads to me like you might already know that he is uninformed about people's alignments.

Perhaps that's true and he did have an ulterior motive in all of his votes. You're trying to push your belief that "I don't think scum can just vote for the hell of it" applies to me believing the same thing. I've seen chaotic scum who have voted on whoever based on RNG, who have voted everyone who was under suspicion (including partners), etc. Maybe your game experiences have had mafia with a purpose but look at how NM is playing. If he's town, he's doing nothing helpful. If he's scum, he's playing chaotic mafia.

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

People question their scumreads as if they're town all the time

[GuiltyLion]

N_M but not as a matter of instinct in the way that I'm talking about though!

My point is that nydush's instinct was to imply that N_M had no reason for his votes. My argument is that a natural town thought process would look like this:

axiom: "If someone is scum, then they are voting from a place of knowledge" (A->B)
belief: "X is scum" (A)
Therefore,
conclusion: "Therefore X must be voting from a place of knowledge" (B)

and I don't see that thought process in his post. Townies don't have to actively work through the logic or be convinced to get to B, they just land there naturally because that's how a rational brain works. But nydush is completely missing B when he questions "are you voting for the hell of it?". Either he was downplaying how much he actually thinks N_M is scum, or nydush never believed N_M was scum to begin with.

if that axiom is not like universally shared among all players then we can debate that, but to me this makes sense.

[nydushermain]

N_M but not as a matter of instinct in the way that I'm talking about though!

My point is that nydush's instinct was to imply that N_M had no reason for his votes. My argument is that a natural town thought process would look like this:

axiom: "If someone is scum, then they are voting from a place of knowledge" (A->B)
belief: "X is scum" (A)
Therefore,
conclusion: "Therefore X must be voting from a place of knowledge" (B)

and I don't see that thought process in his post. Townies don't have to actively work through the logic or be convinced to get to B, they just land there naturally because that's how a rational brain works. But nydush is completely missing B when he questions "are you voting for the hell of it?". Either he was downplaying how much he actually thinks N_M is scum, or nydush never believed N_M was scum to begin with.

if that axiom is not like universally shared among all players then we can debate that, but to me this makes sense.

I can see where you're going with this but trust me when I tell you, I'm town and whatever you're reading into is wrong.

[nydushermain]

If it'll ease your mind, just vote me but drop the topic of whatever slip you think I've made afterwards because all it's going to do is push town in the wrong direction.

[nydushermain]

@mod: since the VC is so confusing, can whoever gets lynched have a twilight post as well?

[Not_Mafia]

the point is that if you truly believed that he is "most likely scum", then your default assumption would not be that he is "voting people for the hell of it".

@Titus

gimme a VC

Uhh no. Look at his previous posts.

VOTE: Hiraki
VOTE: Towns Last Hope
VOTE: Lycanfire
VOTE: GuiltyLion
VOTE: TierShift
VOTE: Alisae
VOTE: Not_Mafia
VOTE: Martha Zolanski
VOTE: Pepchoninga nydushermain

VOTE: Lycan
VOTE: Martha
VOTE: GL

Regardless of his alignment, he's voting for the hell of it. Literally. The only vote he probably made with some sort of intent was the OMGUS vote on me which if he's town, he doesn't even believe given

I'll unvote you if you unvote me

that quote.

[nydushermain]

Did I miss someone in my reads?

[Not_Mafia]

@mod: since the VC is so confusing, can whoever gets lynched have a twilight post as well?

What a strange request

[TierShift]

Also, you remember the game where I was actually scum TS? I went hard on the active players and ignored the inactive ones... one of the being you, and the other being RC on d1. I ignored the fuck out of jack, fykus, etc. Maybe meta reads are bad but you not having any memory of my actual scum play when we literally just finished a game together when I was scum is baffling.

Using meta based off 1 game is the number 1 worst thing I see decent players using

I'm caught up and I still think that TS is scummy. I think that what he is pushing NM on is NAI and calling him a backup lynch after saying

VOTE: Martha Zolanski

Don't at all like the shade throwing/"analysis" at the end there. And the defensive "my vote was rvs" when nobody asked about it

agreed though but you don't think nm is a scummy scumfuck?

is shady as fuck. He should also know how I play scum since we both lived until the end in the game where I actually was scum. This is like a total 180 (I think).

You realise I have not put effort in until now?
Why do you feel that I should be able to read you perfectly after one scumgame?

[TierShift]

Like really I don't understand the attitude towards me

[nydushermain]

Also, you remember the game where I was actually scum TS? I went hard on the active players and ignored the inactive ones... one of the being you, and the other being RC on d1. I ignored the fuck out of jack, fykus, etc. Maybe meta reads are bad but you not having any memory of my actual scum play when we literally just finished a game together when I was scum is baffling.

Using meta based off 1 game is the number 1 worst thing I see decent players using

I'm caught up and I still think that TS is scummy. I think that what he is pushing NM on is NAI and calling him a backup lynch after saying

VOTE: Martha Zolanski

Don't at all like the shade throwing/"analysis" at the end there. And the defensive "my vote was rvs" when nobody asked about it

agreed though but you don't think nm is a scummy scumfuck?

is shady as fuck. He should also know how I play scum since we both lived until the end in the game where I actually was scum. This is like a total 180 (I think).

You realise I have not put effort in until now?
Why do you feel that I should be able to read you perfectly after one scumgame?

I don't think you should be able to read me perfectly after one scum game but when your only reference point of my game play is one in which I actually rolled scum, and literally finished like a week ago should give you at least a modicum of understanding of how I would play as scum. Even if meta is a bad way to read players, and I do think that it is, I think that meta does bring some sort of bias into how people read others.

[Hiraki]

I think TS v NYD is TvT.

[TierShift]

So you are justifying your lazy play by showing how you have played scum differently?

[nydushermain]

So you are justifying your lazy play by showing how you have played scum differently?

No I'm saying you should be using it as a reference because it's fresh in your mind if you're town. I'm not justifying my lazy play at all other than saying that I was busy because of IRL stuff that took priority but I'm no longer busy.

[nydushermain]

I think TS v NYD is TvT.

We'll see...

[TierShift]

However, it does personally feel like he has some sort of agenda. His town read on TLH was just as lazy as my initial scum read on him.

Why does it feel like I have an agenda?

I can just state a townread btw, don't have to explain it to hell and back.

[GuiltyLion]

N_M but not as a matter of instinct in the way that I'm talking about though!

My point is that nydush's instinct was to imply that N_M had no reason for his votes. My argument is that a natural town thought process would look like this:

axiom: "If someone is scum, then they are voting from a place of knowledge" (A->B)
belief: "X is scum" (A)
Therefore,
conclusion: "Therefore X must be voting from a place of knowledge" (B)

and I don't see that thought process in his post. Townies don't have to actively work through the logic or be convinced to get to B, they just land there naturally because that's how a rational brain works. But nydush is completely missing B when he questions "are you voting for the hell of it?". Either he was downplaying how much he actually thinks N_M is scum, or nydush never believed N_M was scum to begin with.

if that axiom is not like universally shared among all players then we can debate that, but to me this makes sense.

I can see where you're going with this but trust me when I tell you, I'm town and whatever you're reading into is wrong.

I'm kinda thinking this feels genuine

[nydushermain]

However, it does personally feel like he has some sort of agenda. His town read on TLH was just as lazy as my initial scum read on him.

Why does it feel like I have an agenda?

I can just state a townread btw, don't have to explain it to hell and back.

It feels like you townread TLH because they were going on me and it feels like your push on me isn't natural. The agenda would literally be you townreading someone who scum reads me in order to push a ML onto me.

[nydushermain]

I have no evidence btw, because like I said, it's just a feeling. I don't actually think that it's AI which is why it didn't come into my scumread on you.

[nydushermain]

do people not realize that EoD is like soon?

[Titus]

Votecount 1.B.6

- Hiraki (1): Towns Last Hope
- Towns Last Hope(hydra of The_Jester and Dunnstral) (2): Lycanfire, Hiraki
- Lycanfire (2): Not Mafia, Hiraki
- GuiltyLion (3):Not Mafia, Towns Last Hope, Not_Mafia
- TierShift (1): nydushermain
- Not_Mafia (2): Martha Zolanski, nydushermain
- Martha Zolanski (2): Not_Mafia, nydushermain
- nydushermain (1): Towns Last Hope, TierShift, Not_Mafia

Not Voting (0): GuiltyLion

Information

Day 1 will end at February 16, 1:37 AM PST. That is (expired on 2017-02-16 01:37:00) from now. 13 hours added for hammer downtime.

Please feel free to PM me with concerns a request for a VC as well. I do apologize for not having VCs up asap. I am not always reading this thread, but do try to have player concerns addressed. :nod: I will not edit any player's posts for content, as a good mod is invisible.