Mini 543 - Election Day - Game Over!

[Rishi]

Immunity Count

*mcpaltp – 2 (Boggzie, ibaesha)
QuickBen – 1 (Akonas)
ibaesha – 1 (QuickBen)
Qman – 1 (Holy)
farside22 – 1 (hasdgfas)

*Would receive immunity if polls opened today.

Not voting: opie, mcpaltp, Rigel, farside22, Qman

Requests to Open Polls:

0

Six votes required to open polls. Election Day will automatically occur January 23 at 11pm EST.

[Qman]

I'm home now, I'll catch up when i wake up tomorrow.


Holidays, fun and hell all in one fun bundle!

[Holy]

I think the whole self-immunity thing has been discounted; it's in the interests of both town and scum.

Well...

Unusual Rules

Immunity

* You may not choose to give immunity to yourself

it's forbidden now >.>

Immunity Count

*mcpaltp – 2 (Boggzie, ibaesha)

*Would receive immunity if polls opened today.

The question for now is, is mcpaltp really not that scummy to deserved the immunity? Still too early to tell though.

[Boggzie]

Immunity Count

*mcpaltp – 2 (Boggzie, ibaesha)

*Would receive immunity if polls opened today.

The question for now is, is mcpaltp really not that scummy to deserved the immunity? Still too early to tell though.[/quote]


wait, wait, wait - That vote was random,

unvote

, because I've played with mcpaltp before and we had fun.

I don't like the implication this early that the vote was scummy.

[Rishi]

wait, wait, wait - That vote was random,

unvote

, because I've played with mcpaltp before and we had fun.

I hope this is not too annoying, but please say "Un-immunity" if you want to stop granting immunity to a player.

I want people to feel free to Vote and Unvote in an unofficial capacity, if they so choose.

[opie]

I don't think there is anyone that is worth a vote for immunity at this point.

[farside22]

@Holy:

It is way too early to be asking that question. I think only 5 of us has really been talking so far. Nothing much to go on.
So far the only thing I've learned is Akonas likes to exaggerate things.

[Rigel]

I don't think there is anyone that is worth a vote for immunity at this point.

QFT

I'd give you immunity if it wouldn't invalidate your entire point, Opie.

At this point, I think we need to focus more on who's scummy rather than on who's not. In most normal games I've played, there are people who eventually stand out as being pro-town, and once they show themselves, we can grant immunity to them. I just feel that it's a better usage of our time to discuss who is scum rather than who's not.

At this point, the big thing that I've picked up regarding this game is that people are seeming to pair off into groups, for one reason or another. Akonas has suggested two: himself and Holy, and hasdgfas and farside22. Now, whether these are organic groupings he's simply noting or arbitrary chance he's making use of is up in the air so far. But it's something to note, especially since farside commented that he didn't see Akonas and Holy as partners. Perhaps Akonas is pushing the suggestion that he and Holy are together because he knows that she is not scum, either because he is scum or through a night action such as the cop's. Regardless, it's something to look at for now that might prove to be more fruitful than randomly granting immunity to whoever sounds the smartest at this point.

[opie]

Akonas, why would you think that the rest of us would assume you and Holy to be a pair? I can't speak for others but it is not an association I considered until you mentioned it.

[farside22]

Mod: Please prod mcpaltp.

Thank you!

@Akonas: I would like an answer to opie's question too.

[hasdgfas]

I have to agree with opie. I didn't think anything of a pairing of akonas and Holy until akonas mentioned something. In addition, why would he just think that farside and I are a team. I said I liked what he has said so far. He hasn't said much of anything about me from what I've seen, so why does he automatically assume that we're grouped together?

[Akonas]

The partners thing... that was because it seemed that Holy and I were largely arguing at hasdgfas and farside22, while everyone else sat around like relatively civil people. I didn't mean anything by it, except to point out the state of things.

Okay, I'm not sure if I follow you Akonas. Do you have any reason to suspect farside22 and hasdgfas as a scum pair other than the fact that they are have both been suspicious of you? And if you are sure that both are scum, then why did you single out hasdgfas over farside22 for your vote?

Well, I'm not sure they're scum. I've been blowing things somewhat out of proportion to get responses. However, I've been doingthat all game, joking somewhat but still saying something.

So, let's take a look at what they did (this is mostly just pointing out little things that bothered me):

Voting for yourself for immunity should never be considered.

immunity: hasdgfas

Immediate early link.

vote: akonas

reasons: OMGUS is bad; farside has had excellent insight so far IMO, and the whole self-immunity thing.

immunity: farside

I've liked what he's said so far.

Again, linking. And I don't see that farside's said that much that's been particularly insightful. But there's a definite link - they're helping each other out, clearly.

well, once we decide who to give immunity to, we can open polls as soon as he/she has the most votes for immunity. It's just like normal mafia, except in reverse. You want votes during the day.

This will depend on two factors actually. One is how long we take to decide on the person who get immunity and two is if we have enough information from the immunity discussions to vote for who should be booted. The town needs to agree on who is the scummiest still because the scum have the more of an advantage in this game.

Both of them are assuming ahere that we're going to start with immunity discussions... and

not start deciding who to lynch until afterwards?

Yes, farside's moderating it a bit, but still assuming that both won't happen at the same time, something which seems to me quite delaying and quite absurd.

FOS: Akonas

self immunity looks scummie.

Somehow true... But that kind of action seems attracting attentions, I still have a doubt that a scum would attract attention like that.

Hello Mr. WIFOM. How are you today?

WIFOM, but not. I still think it's a valid argument because scum probably wouldn't want to draw that much attention. I mean, sure, scum could want to seem pro-town, but self-immunity just draws attention, and doesn't make you seem pro-town. I'm not saying it's a real town tell, because it's not, but I don't see why scum would

want

to draw attention in that way.

The primary argument against me from hasdgfas and farside22 seems to be that I blow things out of proportion, largely based on my "OMGUSFOSWTFBBQ." A serious accusation, clearly. However, something didn't (and still doesn't) sit right with me regarding either of them. They both seem to be wanting to get on me, and the primary argument from the two of them is that I voted for selfimmunity (mostly to see if I could, and if I could, that'd be a good place to keep it; after all, I trust myself), and then did my FOS thingy. Now, I was already suspicious of farside22; I still am. I don't have any concrete evidence, but something doesn't sit right with me about them. They don't seem to be contributing that much, there's connections between them... right now I wouldn't be too unhappy with a lynch of one of them (which doesn't mean I want a lynch now, just that that's where my suspicions lie).

Farside22 complains of my so-called "hypocrosy" in post 61. But I just don't see how that argument holds any water. I asked for people to get conversation going and some accusations flowing. She does so, accuses me, I accuse her, and then she's calling me a hypocrite. It's not because of getting things going; it's because she doesn't sit well with me.


Oh, and:

Well that's true, but it takes a majority to open the polls anyway, so its not like they're going to open on us unexpectedly. I think it will be more interesting to keep the voting a secret until the mod tells us who voted for whom. Instead of scum getting to bandwagon with "me too" style votes, they'll have to either keep their votes spread out or give themselves up as a voting block. It will prevent them from acting with unity, taking away their major advantage. Closed voting will also give us LOTS to discuss the following day once we are given the voting record.

No, that's not quite true. We're likely to know where people's suspicions lie. And when it's a close vote, there can be problems. For example, suppose we were to run up a pro-town power role. Said person wouldn't want to reveal him/herself unless absolutely necessary, but if it was necessary, they would want to in order to keep town from lynching them. This way, no one is sure, so people don't have a chance to claim to clear themselves. This is why I want to keep voting known beforehand.

[farside22]

The partners thing... that was because it seemed that Holy and I were largely arguing at hasdgfas and farside22, while everyone else sat around like relatively civil people. I didn't mean anything by it, except to point out the state of things.

Okay, I'm not sure if I follow you Akonas. Do you have any reason to suspect farside22 and hasdgfas as a scum pair other than the fact that they are have both been suspicious of you? And if you are sure that both are scum, then why did you single out hasdgfas over farside22 for your vote?

Well, I'm not sure they're scum. I've been blowing things somewhat out of proportion to get responses. However, I've been doingthat all game, joking somewhat but still saying something.

So, let's take a look at what they did (this is mostly just pointing out little things that bothered me):

Voting for yourself for immunity should never be considered.

immunity: hasdgfas

Immediate early link.

vote: akonas

reasons: OMGUS is bad; farside has had excellent insight so far IMO, and the whole self-immunity thing.

immunity: farside

I've liked what he's said so far.

Again, linking. And I don't see that farside's said that much that's been particularly insightful. But there's a definite link - they're helping each other out, clearly.

well, once we decide who to give immunity to, we can open polls as soon as he/she has the most votes for immunity. It's just like normal mafia, except in reverse. You want votes during the day.

This will depend on two factors actually. One is how long we take to decide on the person who get immunity and two is if we have enough information from the immunity discussions to vote for who should be booted. The town needs to agree on who is the scummiest still because the scum have the more of an advantage in this game.

Both of them are assuming ahere that we're going to start with immunity discussions... and

not start deciding who to lynch until afterwards?

Yes, farside's moderating it a bit, but still assuming that both won't happen at the same time, something which seems to me quite delaying and quite absurd.

FOS: Akonas

self immunity looks scummie.

Somehow true... But that kind of action seems attracting attentions, I still have a doubt that a scum would attract attention like that.

Hello Mr. WIFOM. How are you today?

WIFOM, but not. I still think it's a valid argument because scum probably wouldn't want to draw that much attention. I mean, sure, scum could want to seem pro-town, but self-immunity just draws attention, and doesn't make you seem pro-town. I'm not saying it's a real town tell, because it's not, but I don't see why scum would

want

to draw attention in that way.

The primary argument against me from hasdgfas and farside22 seems to be that I blow things out of proportion, largely based on my "OMGUSFOSWTFBBQ." A serious accusation, clearly. However, something didn't (and still doesn't) sit right with me regarding either of them. They both seem to be wanting to get on me, and the primary argument from the two of them is that I voted for selfimmunity (mostly to see if I could, and if I could, that'd be a good place to keep it; after all, I trust myself), and then did my FOS thingy. Now, I was already suspicious of farside22; I still am. I don't have any concrete evidence, but something doesn't sit right with me about them. They don't seem to be contributing that much, there's connections between them... right now I wouldn't be too unhappy with a lynch of one of them (which doesn't mean I want a lynch now, just that that's where my suspicions lie).

Farside22 complains of my so-called "hypocrosy" in post 61. But I just don't see how that argument holds any water. I asked for people to get conversation going and some accusations flowing. She does so, accuses me, I accuse her, and then she's calling me a hypocrite. It's not because of getting things going; it's because she doesn't sit well with me.


Oh, and:

Well that's true, but it takes a majority to open the polls anyway, so its not like they're going to open on us unexpectedly. I think it will be more interesting to keep the voting a secret until the mod tells us who voted for whom. Instead of scum getting to bandwagon with "me too" style votes, they'll have to either keep their votes spread out or give themselves up as a voting block. It will prevent them from acting with unity, taking away their major advantage. Closed voting will also give us LOTS to discuss the following day once we are given the voting record.

No, that's not quite true. We're likely to know where people's suspicions lie. And when it's a close vote, there can be problems. For example, suppose we were to run up a pro-town power role. Said person wouldn't want to reveal him/herself unless absolutely necessary, but if it was necessary, they would want to in order to keep town from lynching them. This way, no one is sure, so people don't have a chance to claim to clear themselves. This is why I want to keep voting known beforehand.

I called you a hypocrite because you statement below. I put it in bold because somehow you missed it with your own statement.

FOS: Akonas

self immunity looks scummie.

That's bull. Everyone would want themselves to be immune - if they are scum, they're safe and can mislead the town; if they're town, they can be sure that scum wasn't given immunity. 'Nuff said.

Vote: Qman

. He's lurking; he's obviously scum (and not just gone for the holidays).

Frankly, I'm terribly confused at the moment. I'm seeing it as playing backwards, i.e. awarding immunity. It's...weird.

Correct. That's why it hasn't gone anywhere. All in good time, my friend. But for now... well, we need to start somewhere. Mostly, everyone needs to say more.

Come up with a strategy. Make unfounded accusations. Say anything that's on your mind. This is supposed to be an open, transparent system. That way, we get ideas flowing, get thinking, and can root out scum better.

Also,

OMGUSFOSWTFBBQ:farside22

.

You OMGUSFOS me because I did exactly what you said people should be doing that is why you comment is hypocritical. I'm making comments to you because you are over reacting and I'm supposed to just sit their and take it?
You said I was yelling at you. Now because hasd agreed with me he is my partner. I now see that my first comment set you up against me and now I'm starting to think you are making things up so people will stop looking at you because you are over reacting. At first I just blew it off figuring you were right why would scum point at themselves. I am starting to wonder more and more if I hit a nerve with you which is why you have come back at me.
Since you have stated the back and forth may I state that only half the people are really talking in this thread. Here is what my thoughts are in pertaining to your claim against me.
I didn't like your self immunity because it seemed odd and then FOS'ed it to start the talks. My vote on hasdfas was because I only knew two people in the game and gave it to one of the two people I knew. I'm not sure how many games you are in but scum typically either distance themselves from each other. That is why I never would have consider you and Holy together. If you are not scum then maybe you should stop over reacting to the FOS and move on. Apparently to me it seems to be bothering you too much at this point.

[Rishi]

Mod: Please prod mcpaltp.

Thank you!

Done.

[QuickBen]

@Akonas- Ok point taken. I actually forgot that we only get to vote once per day this game, so there isn't a time someone getting run up can claim. Don't know where my head was with that one. So yeah, that definitely gets my support for announcing who we plan to vote for before the polls open.

[Rishi]

mcpaltp has requested replacement. Seeking.

[Rishi]

Shanba replaces mcpaltp, effective immediately.

[Shanba]

Hi thar. Hi ibby. Hi hasdgfas. Don't know the rest of you lot.

Suspicions... I need to have them, I guess. So let's have a look at Holy.

I think if we concentrate on who is the most suspicious, the least suspicious will become apparent and that is who should be awarded immunity.

Good point.

FOS: Akonas

self immunity looks scummie.

Somehow true... But that kind of action seems attracting attentions, I still have a doubt that a scum would attract attention like that.

Here she says that she thinks this is somewhat true, which is not consistent with the rest of her posts, where she strongly defends Akonas' action. I'd like an explanation.

Now opie is my other suspect. opie has done little scumhunting and has been moslty engaged in theoretical discussion, but more than that, has been agreeing with others on theoretical dicussion.

I think Akonas self-vote for immunity is a bit of a null tell at the moment, I can see why both town and scum would want immunity and would try to vote for themselves. However, his OMGUS reaction does not sit right with me. He did call for random accusations and starting somewhere. The moment farside22 did so, Akonas went OMGUS which isn't really helpful. I don't know if this is enough to warrant a vote yet, but it does seem a bit suspicious.

I dislike this post as it feels overly cautious for a game where there is no consequence to the votes cast here, but that's beside the point.

Something else sticks out at me, however:

Okay, I'm not sure if I follow you Akonas. Do you have any reason to suspect farside22 and hasdgfas as a scum pair other than the fact that they are have both been suspicious of you? And if you are sure that both are scum, then why did you single out hasdgfas over farside22 for your vote?

Akonas, why would you think that the rest of us would assume you and Holy to be a pair? I can't speak for others but it is not an association I considered until you mentioned it.

These both refer to this post by Akonas:

Farside was yelling at me, even though it makes perfect sense for a townie to be voting for selfimmunity Day 1. So I don't see what y'all are complaining about.

I'm with ibaesha - I say we use votes here. It's like a safer version of regular Mafia - we can't lynch anyone until the polls open. I'm thinking BIIIIG bandwagons.

Also, keep in mind that arguments which could go either way (WIFOM) are perfectly legitimate if you're pointing out that it's not necessarily a tell either way, rather than claiming one way. It's like pointing out WIFOM in a smarter way. (Holy's argument).

Right now, I'm seeing hasdgfas and farside22 as a possible scum pair. And you all may be seeing Holy and I that way (funny how people always take sides). But we seem to be arguing something that MAKES SENSE - that's the difference.

WIFOM is one of those things that works kinda like that. Someone makes a WIFOM argument: "Scum wouldn't do X because they know that it's a bad idea."

vote: akonas
reasons: OMGUS is bad; farside has had excellent insight so far IMO, and the whole self-immunity thing.

I think the whole self-immunity thing has been discounted; it's in the interests of both town and scum. As a townie, well, it can get things riled up, get people to jump on you (either they don't realize it, or they're trying to mislead the town).

Vote:hasdgfas

.

Oh, and where is Oman? He posted in another thread; he's probably just about to post here.
VVV IF THIS ISN'T OMAN'S POST I'LL BE SUSPICIOUS. VVV

Now it seems strange to me that opie would wait two days before asking the question in the first post. The only reason I can see is that someone else brought up that point before her: Rigel. Her parroting of his point seems strage in itself, but what worries me more is hasdgfas' reaction, in which he credits opie with the point. Clearly, she is gaining credit for others work. I'm beginning to see this as a scumtell after various games.

Vote: opie

Nothing I have is strong, or definite, but it does make me queasy.

[Rishi]

@Akonas- Ok point taken. I actually forgot that we only get to vote once per day this game, so there isn't a time someone getting run up can claim. Don't know where my head was with that one. So yeah, that definitely gets my support for announcing who we plan to vote for before the polls open.

Wanted to clarify something. From the rules:

* If no player reaches a majority of votes, then there will be a run-off election between the two highest vote-getters (plus anyone tied with those vote-getters). During the run-off election, you may only vote for those players. Whoever has the most votes after the run-off election will be lynched, even if he or she does not receive a majority. For an explanation of ties, please see the Immunity section.
* Between Election Day and the Run-Off Election, the thread will be open for one week.

If no one reaches a majority, there will be a second vote during the day.

[Qman]

On a somewhat quick readthrough, a few things stand out.

Farside and hasdgfas: Tenuous link at best with the immunity trade, worth noting? yes. Worth making a big deal out of? Not currently.
Akonas: Seems really quick to pull the trigger and try to form a bandwagon.

I think for the moment, I'd have to agree that open voting is in our best interest. With closed voting until after the vote, scum can hide or push a vote one way without us really being able to tell (at least on day 1). With open voting you are pretty much locked into a vote unless you really want to stand out for moving your vote during the actual vote. My only real concern with this tactic is the runoff elections if we hit deadline before we all agree.

On immunity: I've come to the conclusion that immunity really isn't worth discussing until we have a good idea who our top lynch candidates are as until then we are really just blowing smoke with it

My 2 ":)

[opie]

Just a few words in response to Shanba. (Welcome by the way!)

opie has done

little scumhunting

and has been moslty engaged in theoretical discussion

Emphasis mine. I would just like to point out that we are only on page 4 of this thread. I'm not sure how much scum hunting is expected of me at this point. And with regards to the theoretical discussion, there are some unique and novel game mechanics involved and I think a lot of my theoretical discussion as well as others has been trying to figure out the best way to play this game.

Now it seems strange to me that opie would wait two days before asking the question in the first post. The only reason I can see is that someone else brought up that point before her: Rigel. Her parroting of his point seems strage in itself, but what worries me more is hasdgfas' reaction, in which he credits opie with the point. Clearly, she is gaining credit for others work. I'm beginning to see this as a scumtell after various games.

First I'll note that I'm a

he

and not

she

. That aside, I did ask Akonas why he thought we would assume he was partners with Holy after Rigel mentioned it.

And

I did so

because

Rigel mentioned it. I don't deny that. I didn't feel that Rigel flat out asked Akonas what his reasons were. So I did. With regard to hasdgfas comment, I'm not sure how that can be considered against me. I asked a question. It piggy-backed off of Rigels comments. I didn't claim anyone elses work. Plus hasdgfas agreed with me that he didn't consider Akonas and Holy as a pair before Akonas brought it up. Which is not something Rigel said. I'm not sure how any of this is a scum tell.

[farside22]

@Qman:

I know it is only four pages, but do you have any insight on who is scum and why.

@Opie:

Same comment as Qman.
I know it is early in the game, but we should start somewhere.

I have 3 people I just feel are scum. Some of it is the way the state things that had me raise an eyebrow.

Holy - States the FOS I placed may be true then defends Akonas. I pushed my question more because I found her comments odd more then anything.

Akonas - I just find him over reacting way too much for as simple FOS. He is already calling for a bandwagon and ready to vote someone out. Jumps the gun a little too much for my taste.

hasdgfas - This one is more on gut. His rules question seemed odd. I know this won't make sense, but I thought why would someone want to know if voting was open to the public or hidden. He WIFOM, which Holy WIFOM back voting for me. I thought hasdfas WIFOM holy so I'm confused with those two interactions. Gives immunity to me (female by the way) saying the FOS was insightful, admits it is a null tell, then says Akonas FOS on me and his statement was also the reason he voted for Akonas. I felt like hasdfas has back tracked a bit here.

Vote: hasdgfas

I just found him lacking.

[opie]

As of Post 96 here are the post count totals:

opie 10
mcpaltp/Shanba 4
hasdgfas 9
Boggzie 5
ibaesha 3
Holy 10
Rigel 3
farside22 13
Akonas 8
QuickBen 5
Qman 3

Six out of the eleven players in this game have five posts or less. And those include confirmation posts! I have noticed a few suspicious things from the active players, but you asked me who I believe to be scum. The things is, I have no idea who would be scum at this point and I don't want to speculate until I hear more from the other players in this game. I feel like the active players are starting to focus on the other active players which could be detrimental to the town. I don't presume that all the scum are to be found amongst the active players.

I am curious, farside22, why did you chose to focus this question on me and Qman?

[farside22]

It really should have been at all players, but I asked Qman because he said something recently and you because so far as active players go I found you the least scummie.
Yes I know it is early and scum like to run and hide, but seriously if everyone can say something about who they find scummie we can talk and go from there.
Most people are talking about trying to find out who is scum. Sometimes the best way to do this is to have a few people in mind and discuss. Lurkers will be noted as well as those who don't seem to have a real good POV. In the long run a scum discussion is better then no discussion.

[hasdgfas]

then says Akonas FOS on me and his statement was also the reason he voted for Akonas. I felt like hasdfas has back tracked a bit here.

I had 3 reasons behind my vote, but akonas was trying to say that it was only because of the self-immunity point. Yes, that was a large talking point, but it was not the only reason behind my vote of akonas. So unless you clarify what you mean by backtracking, I don't see any backtracking by me.